The Impending War

[Benwa]

I'm suprised we haven't hit on the war issue yet. Folks in our age group are most outspoken about their ideas. So I will start.

First, I feel all wars are d*ck-swinging contests between middle aged adolescent men. Just look at the implements of war. What does a bomb look like. A big penis with fins. What about a rifle? It "shoots" projectiles (don't bullets look like penises) to "pentrate" a target. And in full irony, look where the ammo is stored. Always hanging down underneath near the back, just like a scrote. I'm still working on the phallic nature of chemical and bio weapons. I'm sure there's a link. Perhaps its the emotional panetration they have.

I'm tired of our leaders thinking war solves problems. Not one war has ever "solved" anything. And why, when there is a social issue do we have to "declare war" on it. War on Drugs, War on Hunger, War on Homelessness, War on Domestic Violence. My favorite is the new one. War on Terror. What the hell is more terrifying than war? Now we're declaring war on emotions? War on Lethargy. War on Sad. War on the Blues. Pretty soon we'll run out of things to declare war on. We'll have to declare War on War. Then maybe some progress will be made.

But what is a peaceful solution? If we convert to a hydrogen based economy, we would have no need to be there in the region. The technology is there, legislation won't pass enough funding. I've heard it is too expensive. But has anything ever been too expensive in America. Thats what we do, spend oodles of money. Perhaps if we spent less money making our penis bombs smarter, we should spend it making our fuel cleaner. Then Saddam won't have money to spend on weapons. His army will have to fight with pointy sticks. Maybe his special forces can fight with boards with nails through them. Holy Hell! Its the Iraqi Pointy Stick Brigade! Then his people could easily overthrow him. All you need is a longer stick.

Can anyone justify this war to me because I can't even come close?

[M4A1]

LMAO ... boards with nails :lol:

I agree with you to an extent. This is different than taking out terrorist training camps like we did a year ago. It's nonsense to try to "disarm" someone by attacking them, that's just plain stupidity-- When is the last time you punched someone in the nose and then he become your friend?

Power is in the hand that pulls the trigger, not in the trigger itself.

Good o'gun control topic-- if people want to get guns, they'll get guns. The only way to fight it is to educate their mind.

You take out 10,000 Iraqis today, there will be 100,000 more Iraqis who'll hate you. So do you start exterminating them all? Start another Holocaust?

What about North Korea? who has the 3rd largest active army in the world? They are building nukes in broad daylight. You don't see Bush talking about taking them out (but I'm sure he would have if his advisors didn't hold him back). In fact, the administration said it can be resolved peacefully with North Korea. Well, what's so different about Iraq? As if North Korea has never lied before? or broke treaties?

It's an obvious lie that we just want to disarm.

If Bush would have made a case on thousands of Kurds or Shiite Muslims who got gassed by Saddam, then I'd feel more open to military action, but we aren't talking about that are we?

[LittleLady23]

Being a hard core republican, and who totally backs bush, I won't let that totally affect my opinion here.

You asked why we can't just deal with Iraq the same as we are with N. Korea?

Okay here is my view and what I understand from the R. Party. With N. Korea we have many allies on our side. If we pretty much cut off all ties with them, they can't function. They rely on our trading and help from the U.S and other countries. If that stops, they economy stops. Well, thats was we are doing to them. We are taking the diplomatic approach. They need us, just like we need them.

Now with Iraq. They don't need us, but we need them. A big percentage of the world needs their oil. We can't take a diplomatic approach with a country that has a "hold" on ALL of the world. Believe it or not, but Iraq is very wealthy. Not the people, but the government of which Sadaam runs. They can afford to have us cut ties of with them, because they don't care about their own people, just their own "inner" circle of idiots. So, if we cut them off, they threaten to kill the world.

This really is I agree a "who has the bigger johnson" war. The U.S or Irag.

[mo1]

Actually the reason why we cannot approach N.Korea with the same strategy as Iraq is b/c N.Korea already has the ability to make nuclear weapons and has some missiles which are within striking range of the Western world...therefore you cannot use the threat of preemptive strike. Also N. Korea is so economically dependent on the U.S. and China that their is room for diplomacy to work. Their threat to begin their nuclear weapons program again is a strategic economic move...they think by bullying the U.S. they can gain better economic terms. Plus they are trying to use this time of uncertainty in the world to their advantage thinking that the U.S. will grant them recessions out of fear of having to handle another Iraq-like standoff.


I dont war....who in their right mind would "want" war. Nobody does. I do believe taking military action against Iraq is justified however. Saddam Hussein is the epitome of all that is evil. Just as Hitler and Stalin and countless of other geniocidal murderers were in their time. How can you not doubt that he will use weapons of mass destruction against the free world when it has already been proven that he has killed over 100,000 of his own people!!! Or that he will distribute the techonologies and germ warfare that he has to the widespread network of terrorists?(The most frightening thought of all). So no i dont believe that we can all hold hands and try to change the mind of these people....we have tried diplomacy for over 10 years with Hussein and it has failed miserably....and now all the peace mongers are screaming "give the inspectors more time". Yeah whatever.

Why should we settle for living in a world where there is the constant threat of terror? Why should we allow other people around the world have to live in that terror? We dont have to we can do something about it.....now before its too late!

[Benwa]

Is Saddam really "evil"? You have to realize we are being painted a picture which we are wanted to see. It isn't like mass media has a great track record for giving unbiased description of people and events. Saddam must have some positive qualities. Even if he is a complete rat bastard, people reep what they sow. I've heard that not a solitary sole in Iraq would back him when push comes to shove. Remember how "hard" his army fought last time. They didn't even have uniforms. I saw one guy surrender who had on a hawaiian shirt and sweatpants. Perhaps a large portion of the blame belongs to the "followers". Hitler probably never personally killed anyone, but his followers sure did. For these reasons I never trust anyone in charge, no matter which party they are in or who they are. Because people are not perfect and when you give someone a huge amount of power their imperfections become magnified immensly and people get hurt. Say Nasa launches a satelite to Mars and its off at launch by .0000001 of a degree. By the time it passes the moon any error is still undetectable but when it gets to mars it misses by thousands of miles. If people stop at the moon, the effect of our imperfections are smaller.

It could also be said Iraq's economy is just as if not more dependant on Western worlds than North Korea. Their only real bargaining chip is the oil. On occasion I feel it may be cruel if we did move to hydrogen based fuel because nations like Iraq and Saudi Arabia would simply crumble. They would have a whole lot of something that has no market value.

I would also like to point out that WE have weapons of mass destruction. A whole lot of them. More than we let people know about. There was some piece of paper signed saying we wouldn't develop any biological threats. The only problem is that the Anthrax strain that went to Daschle was *whoops* one of ours. So much for that lie (haven't heard anything about that search for those people lately). So we have nukes and poisons and develop the delivery systems. But somehow WE are the only ones who can be trusted with the stuff. After all we are the inventors of it and are the only nation to use a nuke on an opponent, twice. And WE didn't care if civilians were killed just like the terrorist today. We shouldn't delude ourselves, WE may not be that different from THEM.

[mo1]

I agree with you Benwa on that we are painted a certain picture by those in control etc. But honestly most of the picture that the U.S. is getting painted from its own media is that we are in the wrong......that everyone hates us.....that America is a oil-hungry egomanical superpower....that Bush is off his rocker and is reaching for any shred of evidence he can get to make this war justifiable. Just look at the piece of "journalism" fed to us by NBC and Tom Brokaw awhile back. He went into the streets of Baghdad and interviewed the Iraqi people, asking them what they thought of the U.S. and the possibility of war. Cmon! Do you really think those people are going to get on US TV and say that they dont love Saddam...that he isnt a great leader. Their families would be gone in the middle of the night if that happened.....a bullet to the head. Even if they somehow believe Saddam is a good guy you wouldnt have to go that far out of Baghdad i doubt to the people living in poverty in rural Iraq to find some who would probably be willing to admit that their lives are a living hell under Saddam's rule. And yet we dont get this picture....we dont see interviews with families of the thousands of Kurds who were brutally exterminated by Hussein and his lynchmen. Why? B/c...gasp... it might actually solidy the Bush administration's allegations.

You know sometimes i wish we would just pull out our military all over the world...bringem all home....close down our borders and say "F*ck you all! Dont ask for our help ever again. See how that makes the French and Germans feel....they never want to get their hands dirty with anything always leave it to the U.S. to step in or the British. Of course such a reality could only be wishful thinking. I do hope though that one day soon we will put forth the money it takes to mass develop a alternative resource to oil. The less dependent we are on those countries we are the better......let their economies collapse and then see how mighty their rulers are.

[Benwa]

I'm just saying evil is a relative term. Depending on what side you are on. And it has always made me nervous when our US leaders use terms like Axis of Evil or Rid the world of the Evil doers. America has a horrible track record of unspeakable deads. We damn near wiped an entire race of people off the earth (Native Americans) and we enslaved another race (blacks). And there are countless smaller events. To say that we are the masters and prudent judges of right and wrong is ridiculous. US isn't infinitely evil, we just have no business telling we are always on the side of right.

Also, a little discussed fact about the 9-11 attacks, it may have been a pre-emptive strike on behalf of Taliban/Al-queda. The newest hotbed of petroleum deposits is in the caspian sea. But in order for us to get our hands on it there needed to be a pipeline built which ran through Tajikistan Pakistan and lovely afghanistan. The Taliban said no. We said, what the hell do you mean no? Tempers flaired and a "representative" from the US said "You will roll out the red carpet for us, or we will roll out the carpet bombs on you." (I haven't been to get a reliable source for this quote yet, so take it as you wish). I wonder why someone would be threatened by that? People never attack "just because their mean". We dropped a nuke in WWII because we felt we had to. Alqueda crashed the planes for precisely the same reason.

If the only two parts of America you ever saw was the military who killed your family and Big business who screwed you out of a livelihood, you might hate America too. I'm not saying we are evil incarnate, but people in those countries never see the positives of America. Does Military and Big Business encapsulate you as an American? It sure as hell doesn't represent me. But there minds eye is blinded by hate and so is ours. Punish the Evil Doers? What a crock. Because dishing out punishment makes YOU and evil doer.

[mo1]

I have to agree with Weirdbrake. I dont know where you heard that 9/11 was a preemptive attack Benwa...it would be interesting to know....unforunately i doubt a valid source exists. As for this whole premonition that the U.S. is hellbent on war only b/c of the oil....well i jsut dont buy it. If that was the case we could have done finished it off in 1992.

[M4A1]

I'll bridge both of your viewpoints, WB and Benwa.

There's no need to argue intellectually with these terrorists. For that they have little consideration for our cultural diversity, political stances, and backgrounds. Terrorists think we are all the same. When in fact LittleLady and I can argue about Bush all day. And you two are different too, Ben and WB. But they ain't gonna think about that. Terrorists wants to kill us all like the same-- regardless of how we different individually. Evil is too nice of a word. Terrorists are assholes.

As for war, we are the champion of war. We fought Native Americans, Brits, Spanish, French Canadians, Mexicans, Each other (Civil War), Cubans, Germans, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Phillipinos, Vietimese, Iraqis, Africans... We got it on with just about everybody. Everyone gets their ass kicked by us. If they can't do it like Mahatma Ghandi of India (non-violent protest) and choose to fight like all these mothers did? We'll kick their ass and add their names to our list. It's that simple. We are all about fighting. Most advanced military in the world, we've got SEALs, Deltas, Rangers, Marines, CIA, FBI... we are all about crushing our enemy with overwhelming power. It's what we do the best.

Good or bad? Well, you decide, I'm telling it like it is.

---

As for North Korea. I got a news flash for you. North Korea has said that they'll attack if they are cut-off from economical aide. So making threats, as in "If you don't listen, we'll cut you off", is not going to work. And just this last Friday, LittleLady, and I mean no offense, (this is a debate, remember) CIA has made an offical statement that North Korea has long range missles that can hit the West Coast. So if they are building nukes, and we go bullying them again by making demands... I don't think that's gonna work. Especially you live in California.... I mean... :)

[lostindc]

I think the problem is the lack of a clear objective. Heck there are at least 5 different conjectures of what the objective is in this thread alone. The official objective seems to be to disarm iraq of weapons of mass destruction. However . . .

- How do you know when this objective is met?
- Why not give inspectors more resources, time, and assistance if they could help meet this objective?
- The White House has stated that war could be averted if Hussein went into exile, was assinated or otherwise removed from power. How does this meet the official objective? Won't iraq continue to possess the same weapons after hussein was removed from office?

It is much harder to win when you don't know when you have won (ie met the objective)

[LittleLady23]

Okay, here I go again. If any of you have read my posts about 9-11 then you know how "hot" headed I can be when it comes to these issues.

I hear all of your arguments Benwa, but honestly not one of them is hit a cord with me or make a lot of sense. Granted American's, and all other human beings have a right to their own opinions, but to say that America is an evil doer? Dishing out punishment makes us that?

Getting our allies together to have a war against terrorism is evil? No, not is the slightest. Saddam is evil. Terrorism is evil. Like I said before, I think Bush is a great president (I know some totally disagree, but I think he is doing 115 percent better than the last joker in office) and I applaud Bush for putting himself out there and trying to get things done. Common, the man was not even in office enough to get his feet wet when the 9-11 attacks happened. He has had to battle I think the biggest problems imaginable while in office that many past presidents did not!! Granted nobody is perfect, but deploying soldiers, reservists, marines, airforces, and ground troops is a good tactic in the hostililty that is arising and the threats that are taking place against us. If any other country was under the pressure or threats like we are, they would do the same. Common, open your eyes. What we are seeing on TV is only a small glimpse into the horror against us. Do you think the government would actually tell us every tactic, every threat, every operation that is going on? No, if we knew everything that went on that threatens the United States, we would be in sheer panic. We would look like a Gozilla movie with everyone panicked and running around mad. I am greatful for Bush, and our armed forces who go out there and put their lives on the line so we can enjoy the comforts of hot water, food, money, entertainment and whatever floats your boat. If these people weren't out there fighting for OUR freedom, then we would be another 3rd world poverty country.

Also, people are complaing that they don't want their family members going to war but who is going to protect us? Another country? Umm. I don't think so. We have to defend out freedom, nobody else is going to help that. If someone personally comes up to you and hits your or threatens your life, do you look to a stranger to fight your battle? No, you fight back yourself.

I know this is long, but I get really angry when people start talking about "can't we all just get along" crap. Yes that would be nice and dandy if we could forget all of our problems and all hold hands, but reality check, thats not going to happen until these "terrorists" are stopped. So before anyone goes balking at the United States, which by the way gives you the comforts of your life, you need to look at the others who are threatening to take that away, and then we will talk.....

[mo1]

I have to say im a strong Bush supporter as well. The man isnt perfect but at least he stands by his decisions and what he believes is the right thing to do. More than you can say for "the last joker" in office as LittleLady put it. Im grateful we have a leader who is willing to deal with these tough issues and not just try to appease every world leader and make deals all the time ...ahem Clinton administration. As a country we need to take a tough stance against regimes like Iraq and N. Korea. War is a last resort and always will and should be for the United States of America. It is sad that we have to send our loved ones to fight but it is something that is necessary to protect everything we so take for granted in our lives. As a political science major in college we talked alot about the realist position of "if you want peace prepare for war". I guess it would be nice to not buy into this way of thinking...the world would be much calmer place to live......unforunately it will never happen....at least in any of our lifetimes. The tide starts with the young but sadly the young in these countries of repression are being fed the same demented version of the world. If only they could see that the American people do not want to come in and dominate their countries and pillage their people.

THe United States track record is far from perfect but its sad that the media is so insistent on focusing on the bad when their is so much good done by the American people and the U.S. govt....the millions and billions of dollars of aid we send to helpless countries...the thousands of PeaceCorps members who live and provide valuable services to some of the world's poorest countries....the thousands of American troops protecting the freedom of people worldwide and helping to rebuild some of the most unstable areas. Why cant we celebrate the good that is the American spirit........why must we be made to feel like we are the source of everything that is wrong with this world?

[Benwa]

The reason we didn't finish the war in 1992 is pretty simple. It's been estimated we were only a few days away from taking Baghdad. But once we got close, other countries threw up a net of red tape. Why? They didn't like Saddam controlling all that oil, but the thought of us controlling all that oil could be even worse.

As for eliminating terrorist from this planet.

" In Germany--

They came first for the Communist, and I didn't speak out...
Because I wasn't a Communist

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out...
Because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionist's, and I didn't speak out...
Because I wasn't a trade unionist

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak out...
Because I wasn't Catholic.

And then they came for me, and by that time
no one was left to speak up.

-Pastor Martin Niemoller


You cannot eliminate terrorist by killing them. When they are killed, more rise up in their place. I don't fear being killed by a terrorist and I don't fear surviving terrorism. If I were met face to face with Osama or Saddam, I wouldn't kill them. I would love to talk to them, figure out where they are coming from. That's the only way to change the situation. They have positive characteristics that can be used for good. For example, Osama has incredible charisma. Have you ever known someone who could make you want to die for a cause. I haven't. That charisma can be used to have people "live" for a cause.

I will never give up on anyone's ability to change. Fighting eachother may always be necassary, but annihilating eachother isn't. I'm not talking about everyone holding hands and being happy. Its time to evolve voluntarily. And this will probably be an evolution of the mind. Neanderthals didn't die out because of an inferior body, but most likely an inferior mind. How many more generations can be born into this until the planet says enough. How many wars must be fought. How many more people have to live in a constant state of fear. How much more hate can the collective psyche handle. My message isn't one of negativity and sorrow, but one of unimaginable freedom. Freedom that no legislation can pass, no army can protect and no enemy could destroy.

[lostindc]

I think you need to look at the practical issues instead of just philosophical issues. The world is a lot more complicated than good vs evil/ us vs them etc. War has real costs and consequences (lives, stability, diplomatic capital, money etc) which must be weighed against the its goals, and any less costly means of attaining those goals. We need to make sure that this war really is in our best interests and doesn't create something even worse down the road (or become another vietnam war).

[lostindc]

Benwa,

We did finish the war in 1991. Our objective was to liberate kuwait (and ensure its future liberation) from iraqi control and we did just that in a very precise manner using war as the final means. The situation in 1991 could not have been handled any better.

[mo1]

Loved that parable Weirdbrake....right on!

[StateNAurora]

Is there any such thing as a just war? If we can prove without a doubt that Saddam is harboring terrorists, and stock piling weapons do we have the right/responsibilty to remove him by force?