London attacked?!

[Stormshadow]

I knew the Fourth of July was too quiet. Looks like our neighbors across the pond may have gotten attacked. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/index.html

[KeepRockin]

Woke up to the news on the radio and now watching tv news. Crazy! :( As with any breaking story, it'll be a while before we know more...so sad. I've already been in touch with friends in London, so far so good.

[tina1979]

WOW!!! I hadn't heard about it yet! I must live under a rock!

[samender]

I saw that first thing this morning when I read the news and I heard about it on my drive to work on the radio.

[summergold]

It's scary. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't feel any safer after all of our military forrays to try and stop terrorism. If anything, I feel less safer and more like a prisoner in my own country. I just keep waiting for the next one. I don't want it to happen, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.

[aj030201]

All aimed at the G8 and they said the explosions went off at the same time. We really, really need to take a hard look at how we protect our transit systems such as rail and bus.

[winneythepooh7]

Great. My boyfriend and mom already called me and don't want me to take the subway today and I have to to go into Manhattan to see a client :googly: :googly: :googly: Not that I am too scared or anything. I've come to accept that if it is my time to go this way, it will be my time to go.

[J-girl]

My mum was in London, England last month. We have family there. This thing is making my blood boil

[jrwilheim]

I was horrified when I heard this on the radio this morning.

Does anyone know if there are any relief efforts under way? Is the Red Cross collecting for the victims' families, or anything?

[paiger81]

If anything, I feel less safer and more like a prisoner in my own country. I just keep waiting for the next one. I don't want it to happen, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.

See, I disagree with this. I do not feel any more or less safe than I did pre-terroristic attacks. Now, I just have a broader sense of awareness to the truths of the world.

As for the whole London thing, I think it is such a low blow for the terrorists to target them the day after they were selected for the '12 Olympics, really chaps my ass! :mad:

[J-girl]

We really, really need to take a hard look at how we protect our transit systems such as rail and bus.


And a harder look at our foreign policy.

[dazed]

yeah heard about it first thing this morning. really scary for stuff like that to happen, especially in the middle of rush hour. my first thought was that london was attacked because they were chosen for the 2012 olympics and some nut from another country that was competing for the spot decided to blow stuff up. but it's probably because the G8 is nearby.

i don't feel more or less safe either. just more awareness to things like paiger.

[summergold]

See, I disagree with this. I do not feel any more or less safe than I did pre-terroristic attacks. Now, I just have a broader sense of awareness to the truths of the world.

I guess that's kind of what I meant. I think it's more like a loss of innocence. I'm definitely not scared of taking the subway or flying in a plane, but it's just the idea that before hand the thought of them being turned into bombs or being bombed was far from my mind. We're not as naive as we once were.

[paiger81]

Hmmm...when I stop and think about it, I hate that this whole terrorist thing started & hate that people had to die, BUT I am kind of glad that we did find this awareness. That probably sounds really bad..........

[wordsmith]

London's the largest populations center and has I'm assuming the most extensive public trans system, i.e. the most people in one place/more deaths/a big statement. I'm actually kind of surprised there hasn't been a bigger jump in security measures and precautions in major cities' public transportation systems, like there was in airports. It's such a comparatively easy way to wipe out a big number of people.

I don't live in fear, but neither does stuff like this shock or surprise me, now. Every time there is a large group of people together, it sort of runs through the back of my mind, "What a target." Loss of innocence, indeed.

[tina1979]

I don't live in fear, but neither does stuff like this shock or surprise me, now. Every time there is a large group of people together, it sort of runs through the back of my mind, "What a target." Loss of innocence, indeed.
I think the same thing

[paiger81]

But every generation has their loss of innocence moment, ya know? To me I just see it as part of the whole circle of life. It is kind of sucky, but I don't really mourn it either.

[wordsmith]

Paige, how can you not mourn senseless death and havoc wreaked to make a statement? In ANY generation? Stuff like this isn't, "Oh, well, shit happens."

[paiger81]

Paige, how can you not mourn senseless death and havoc wreaked to make a statement? In ANY generation? Stuff like this isn't, "Oh, well, shit happens."

That's not really what I mean. I think this might be one of those things that connotates better in person than on the boards. I completely mourn those who have died & the terror that is going on. But I don't mourn the loss of the innocence, you know? I don't see how we can ever protect the concept of innocence forever.

Does that make sense? OR should I just stop talking :p ?

[spokes]

the radio statio here reported that the European branch of the Al-Queda is claiming responbility for this.

I find this types of things quite sad because the attacks are completely random and they don't discriminate based on age or gender. although I suppose one could argue that an american missile does also not discriminate.

this kind of stuff is reason why i don't want to see any type of "world" event come to my city.

[tina1979]

That's not really what I mean. I think this might be one of those things that connotates better in person than on the boards. I completely mourn those who have died & the terror that is going on. But I don't mourn the loss of the innocence, you know? I don't see how we can ever protect the concept of innocence forever.

Does that make sense? OR should I just stop talking :p ?
I think it makes complete sense.

[wordsmith]

That's not really what I mean. I think this might be one of those things that connotates better in person than on the boards. I completely mourn those who have died & the terror that is going on. But I don't mourn the loss of the innocence, you know? I don't see how we can ever protect the concept of innocence forever.

Does that make sense? OR should I just stop talking :p ?

No, that's fair enough. For me, though, I DO really mourn the fact the world I live in is such that it's even a subliminal concern, when there are a bunch of people in one place, that somebody could really easy kill and/or maim all of them,and pretty easily at that.

[MetFanL]

are any sites broadcasting a live video stream??

[paiger81]

No, that's fair enough. For me, though, I DO really mourn the fact the world I live in is such that it's even a subliminal concern, when there are a bunch of people in one place, that somebody could really easy kill and/or maim all of them,and pretty easily at that.

Yeah, I get that, don't see anything wrong with the fact that you do mourn, I was just explaining how I feel about it all. ;)

[summergold]

It's sort of the feeling that we're sitting ducks and it's such a fatalistic view to have. I've heard a lot of people say, "if it's my time to go, then it's my time to go." I say that too, but I wish we could actually identify our threat. To me, terrorists is just too broad a term. We have domestic terrorists (Oklahoma City), religious zealots, and then those who were just raised to think that we are the most evil country on the face of the earth. It's a faceless threat, and that's what I hate most about it.

[summergold]

They've upped the number of people killed in London from 2 to 40 and 300 injured.

[yankeeyosh]

It's terrible this happened...I think we should say a prayer for the families of the victims.

I don't know about the UK, but I personally feel that we are doing an excellent job here in the US fighting terror. I know we have different political ideologies here, but if you go back to September 11, 12, 13, 2001, did you actually believe that it would be July 2005 and there would not be another attack on our soils? Today's events were awful, and I do know that Blair and Bush are on general agreement in this war on terror. But I think overall, we have done remarkably well these past 4 years considering what was expected.

[Angyl]

It's sort of the feeling that we're sitting ducks and it's such a fatalistic view to have. I've heard a lot of people say, "if it's my time to go, then it's my time to go." I say that too, but I wish we could actually identify our threat. To me, terrorists is just too broad a term. We have domestic terrorists (Oklahoma City), religious zealots, and then those who were just raised to think that we are the most evil country on the face of the earth. It's a faceless threat, and that's what I hate most about it.


See, I refuse to be afraid. I know they're out there, but the truth is, they were always out there. It wasn't as if bin Laden didn't exist before. I can't live my life in a fear that the government jsut perpetuates.

[paiger81]

See, I refuse to be afraid. I know they're out there, but the truth is, they were always out there. It wasn't as if bin Laden didn't exist before. I can't live my life in a fear that the government jsut perpetuates.

That's what I'm talkin' bout!!!((insert thumbs up sign))))

[maxwell78]

are any sites broadcasting a live video stream??
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/live/bb/rm/video/now3_bb.ram

OR

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/live/bb/wm/video/now3_bb.asx

[joneshen]

this kind of stuff is reason why i don't want to see any type of "world" event come to my city.

Once I realized what was going on, I couldn't help but think, "Gee, we dodged a bullet [by not having the Olympics in New York]."

[heatherf]

This may sound odd, but what makes shit hard on me is that this, along with 9/11 happened while I was sleeping and so in the morning when I wake up and turn on my favorite morning show- I'm bombarded with this horrible event that happened. It's kinda like cold water being splashed on my face and it's jolting. I hate it.

The other thing that doesn't seem to fit, or that makes this and the Spain attack weird, is the loss of life and those injured seem so few compared to what we went through. IMO it doesn't fit because 9/11 seemed much more larger scale, and these didn't- as if they were NOT planned by Al Queda.

[heatherf]

Once I realized what was going on, I couldn't help but think, "Gee, we dodged a bullet [by not having the Olympics in New York]."

IMO the olympics isn't an issue. Let us not forget that we did hold the 2002 Salt Lake City games- right after 9/11. Nothing happened there. :)

[tartytwenty]

My day to day life hasn't changed, I'm more aware as some have posted above. However I do feel prisoner in my country... will Continent. Americans aren't well liked in many countries right now and are desireable targets for these terrorist groups. Sure that threat exsisted before, but it's a bigger threat now, and we provoke some of it.

I doubt I'll be travelling to the mideast any time soon. I think the public world's view of the terrorist war limits us to where we can travel too and get a warm welcome in the world.

Fear? No. Common Sense? Yes. If I'm not welcome, I don't go. Not that I have any money to travel with anyways!

[Angyl]

BTW, I jsut listened to the London Press conference and the police there HAVE NOT received any claims of responsibility. So whatever you heard elsewise is wrong.

[J-girl]

The worst part is you cant even get through to people in London. The telephone lines are jammed.

[paiger81]

The worst part is you cant even get through to people in London. The telephone lines are jammed.


OH! Damn, I didn't think to write it down, since I don't know anyone in London, but they just gave out an 800 number people could call to see if their loved ones were among the injured/dead. I'm sure you could find it online.

[J-girl]

OH! Damn, I didn't think to write it down, since I don't know anyone in London, but they just gave out an 800 number people could call to see if their loved ones were among the injured/dead. I'm sure you could find it online.


Thanks. I'll check BBC.

[wordsmith]

BTW, I jsut listened to the London Press conference and the police there HAVE NOT received any claims of responsibility. So whatever you heard elsewise is wrong.

It's been reported that terrorist groups with al-qaida connections have claimed involvement, whether there are police reports to that effect or not, but it's also true that extremist groups will often claim credit for things to instill fear.

And, really, whether attacks have al-qaida ties or not, what happened here helped set the stage for extremist groups to follow suit. I feel like it definitely raised the bar on what terrorists can and will do.

[Angyl]

It's been reported that terrorist groups with al-qaida connections have claimed involvement, whether there are police reports to that effect or not, but it's also true that extremist groups will often claim credit for things to instill fear.

And, really, whether attacks have al-qaida ties or not, what happened here helped set the stage for extremist groups to follow suit. I feel like it definitely raised the bar on what terrorists can and will do.


That's true. All the claims of responsibilty have been on militant web sites. I don't dispute that fact that terrorists are getting ballsier, but I just don't see the point of living in fear becuase of it. Fear is exactly what they want us to feel. Like the bully on the playground, ignore them, live your life and maybe they'll jsut give up.

[J-girl]

And if they are comitting all these crimes in the name of God, they have a VIP seat reserved in hell for sure. :rolleyes:

[MetFanL]

thanks, max.

[wordsmith]

I don't think terrorism will ever stop. Obviously, a "war on terrorism" is no deterrant to the visions of the fanatical. People who believe they are carrying out a divine duty, and are so hell-bent on destruction they are more than willing to give up their own lives to that end if need be aren't going to to be fazed by much of anything.

I just don't see anybody giving up. I don't live in fear, but I also don't live in a prime area where anything like that would impact me directly. Unless bioterrorism were the game...we have so many facilities for livestock/grain/feed that were massively protected following 9/11. But, somehow, I'm skeptical of something insidious like that of terrorists (although it could for sure be attempted). It just seems like it's not a quick-acting, shocking statement like blowing things and people up.

[coll214]

It's an awful, awful thing to happen and my heart goes out to all those injured and the families of the dead. But i'd be lying if I said this surprises me. Like everything else nowadays, it's not a matter of if, it's when is it going to happen.

[Bugsey34]

Once I realized what was going on, I couldn't help but think, "Gee, we dodged a bullet [by not having the Olympics in New York]."

This definitely had nothing to do with the Olympics, these things are well planned and coordinated and they would never have had enough time. It may have little to with the G8 summit for that matter. It's another message that this is what happens to you when you support Bush's "war on terror". Blair has been Bush's main ally, always standing next to him and supporting this initiatives. London has been expecting this because of that fact alone.

[howcan]

And if they are comitting all these crimes in the name of God, they have a VIP seat reserved in hell for sure. :rolleyes:
im pretty sure they get 72 virgins in heaven. the infidels (victims) are the ones that go to hell

[wordsmith]

The estimated planning time for a coordinated attack IS pretty massive. But it was definitely smart to strike while the bulk of the country's security was focused on the G8 stuff in Gleneagles.

[RayJ1977]

"We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail."

-GWB, 9/18/01



I still love that line.

[yankeeyosh]

Amen. Amen.

[tina1979]

"We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail."

-GWB, 9/18/01



I still love that line.
I'm with you there!

[RayJ1977]

I've got a CD of the post 9/11 address to Congress. There are two lines. That line gets me teary. There's another one where Bush said:


"We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions -- by abandoning every value except the will to power -- they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies."


That last line (which I to this day believe was THE line of that speech) makes me bawl. I think at the time I found comfort in that line because we had defeated all the other black hats...and here was someone assuring me we would surely do it again. Love that speech.

[joneshen]

This definitely had nothing to do with the Olympics, these things are well planned and coordinated and they would never have had enough time.

I was thinking, "Wow, that was quick! The Olympics announcement was made yesterday!" Still, from a terrorist's standpoint :madder: , the timing almost couldn't be better.

(Just typing that last line makes me sick.)

[RayJ1977]

It has far more to do with the G-8 summit and the fact that Britain has been our top loyalist. Zilch to do with the Olympics.

My question is what does this do to sentiment in England. England has been down on us lately. If this happened in New York (again) or anywhere here, Americans would have "rallied around the flag" and there would have been another patriotic call to arms and strike them down with the Thunder of God's Own Hand. Same effect in England? If so, then that's the dumbest thing the terrorists could have done--bolster everyone's resolve. But if not...and public opinion in England tanks (as it did in Spain), then it will be something of a setback for us in this fight.

[RayJ1977]

You know what else? I'm convinced this will be the next type of attack we will see in the United States. It's the simplest to carry out. With all the security and precaution in Israel, this goes on all the time. But imagine...simultaneous mass-transit attacks in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Miami, Austin, and Philadelphia combined with subway attacks in Washington and New York. I think something like that will ultimately make it over here. Scary.

[wordsmith]

I think that it was likely a date picked at random, like 9-11, moreso than correlating with even the G8 stuff (although I'm sure it was an added bonus that security measures were probably focused on north of London). And the Olympics is probably a total coincidence, because as others have pointed out, it takes a long time to coordinate an attack. You don't throw it together in a hurry, I'm assuming.

I also do agree that more attention SHOULD be given to mass transit being potentially targeted. It's a lot easier to send a bunch of people on a commuter train with bombs in their briefcases than it is to hijack a plane.

I don't know. Do people actually think there is any dissuading fanatics? I don't think there is. I really just don't. Holy wars have been going on for century upon century, and I'm really skeptical that any current administration is going to put an end to that once and for all.

[joneshen]

I also do agree that more attention SHOULD be given to mass transit being potentially targeted.

One of my fears right after 9/11 was exploding subway cars. That fear will occasionally come back while I ride the subway or on Metro.

[natbumpo]

It's terrible this happened...I think we should say a prayer for the families of the victims.

I don't know about the UK, but I personally feel that we are doing an excellent job here in the US fighting terror. I know we have different political ideologies here, but if you go back to September 11, 12, 13, 2001, did you actually believe that it would be July 2005 and there would not be another attack on our soils? Today's events were awful, and I do know that Blair and Bush are on general agreement in this war on terror. But I think overall, we have done remarkably well these past 4 years considering what was expected.

I agree 120%

[natbumpo]

Not sure if this was coincidence (most likely not), but Benjamin Netanyahu was scheduled to have a meeting in a building directly above one of the tube stations that was bombed. They British Secret Service told him (or his people) to call it off.

[Benwa]

You got to hand one thing to al-queda, the are extremely effective. They're are smooth operators. They are kind of like the Viet Cong. They've taken a page out of the Art of War. If your opponent is slow and lumbering, be small, quick and nimble. Don't face the giant head on, but chip away at the weak spots. Everyone in the cell is killed, which means no questioning. They pick targets for maximum fear. I'm not sure how we can be expected to fight them. Something else must be figured out because obviously bombing the shit out of a country where they may or may not be isn't working.

I don't agree with their ideology because I think any fundamentalist regardless of what religion is just a pain in the ass and usually a drain on humanity. But its pretty easy to understand why they are doing what they are doing. Ideology is always used to justify an action and very seldom used as the real motivation. They don't seek a muslim world, but rather power and status. And when you want some status you go after the alpha male, which is america/western europe. Thats how every primate group functions, and so do we. And of course we make it worse because we have a tendency to trounce on people. We don't behave like the old noble silverback. so that creates even more animosity. So I completely understand why they are so pissed and why they want to destroy america and westernised world.

I don't know if their methods are effective. I don't see them winning longterm using terrorism. Eventually they need to change tactics just like we do. I wish they would adopt a ghandi style resistance.

I hope this doesn't stop the G8 from discussing Africa and more pressing issues like the climate. Remember your odds of being killed by a terrorist are practically zero. Terrorism just grabs the headlines more because its so dramatic.

[internut33]

I've learned to deal w/ Terror/Terrorists.... Come get me bitches. If you dont finish me I'll come back for you and your family and do the same back.

[dazed]

I think that it was likely a date picked at random, like 9-11, moreso than correlating with even the G8 stuff (although I'm sure it was an added bonus that security measures were probably focused on north of London). And the Olympics is probably a total coincidence, because as others have pointed out, it takes a long time to coordinate an attack. You don't throw it together in a hurry, I'm assuming.

I also do agree that more attention SHOULD be given to mass transit being potentially targeted. It's a lot easier to send a bunch of people on a commuter train with bombs in their briefcases than it is to hijack a plane.

the day of this attack, not the date, 7-7, isn't so random i don't think. unlike 9-11 which has significance in most people's minds (the emergency number). once i learned of this incidence this morning i did some research on the few major terrorist attacks i know of. 9-11 happened on a tuesday. the spain train attacks and today's london attack both occurred on thursdays. al qaeda, who seems to be responsible for all to this, is very clever to choose days in the middle of the week, when more people go to work. and morning rush hours seem to be busier in most countries than evening rush hour since people may leave work at differing hours but generally get there by early morning. so that's been their prime focus as well.

mass transit in every country is incredibly vulnerable to a terrorist attack and i agree, more needs to be done about that. in addition more should be done along the lines of safeguarding countries' water supplies and combating other means of biological warfare.

benwa - the alpha male analogy is very interesting. i never thought of it in those terms but it's true and you're right, it's all about power.

[Mad Dawg]

And a harder look at our foreign policy.

While certainly we must realize our governments' policies and actions helped to create this situation, these people are not to be confused with freedom fighters. These attacks are in no way courageous or noble, nor do they better the situation for people in the terrorists' homelands. This is a fight against zealots whose sole agenda is to create chaos and confusion out of misguided jealousy stemming from a misinformed belief in a global power lost long ago with the end of the Caliphate.

If this is a war, then it is to be fought on multiple fronts. We can keep future generations from participating in this loathesome behavior through attacking ignorance and poverty abroad, but we must simultaneously worry about this generation. Prolonged occupations of foreign lands have proven counter-productive, and the most formidable military force the world has ever known is not the right tool for the job. Would you dig a hole for a fencepost with a giant excavator?

Something must be done, but that is easier said than done.

For now, our thoughts and prayers go out to the injured and the bereaved.

[dazed]

one more thing...

this has been the worst attack against london since the blitz in world war II. nothing this bad has happened to london in the past 60-some years. so why hasn't the royal family come out to say something about this?? they don't play a role in politics or anything but i think when their own country gets attacked they need to step up to the plate and show their support. lots of english people look up to the Queen during bad times and she's been quiet the entire day. it's starting to piss me off...someone from the royal family could've come out and said something.

[wordsmith]

the day of this attack, not the date, 7-7, isn't so random i don't think. unlike 9-11 which has significance in most people's minds (the emergency number). once i learned of this incidence this morning i did some research on the few major terrorist attacks i know of. 9-11 happened on a tuesday. the spain train attacks and today's london attack both occurred on thursdays. al qaeda, who seems to be responsible for all to this, is very clever to choose days in the middle of the week, when more people go to work. and morning rush hours seem to be busier in most countries than evening rush hour since people may leave work at differing hours but generally get there by early morning. so that's been their prime focus as well.

I'm not saying the execution of that stuff isn't planned down to the second, certainly, or that the organizers don't design them to wipe out the most people possible. I'm just saying I'm not sure if it had to be 7-7, or if it could have as easily been 10-10. I don't know, though. I remember reading that the first batch of Madrid train bombings was exactly 911 days after 9/11.

mass transit in every country is incredibly vulnerable to a terrorist attack and i agree, more needs to be done about that. in addition more should be done along the lines of safeguarding countries' water supplies and combating other means of biological warfare.

I agree. I know that my state has a lot of grain processing and agricultural processing plants, which were and continue to be HEAVILY guarded due to contamination/ biological warfare concerns.

[lilyflower]

My heart goes out to all the people of the UK, after having gone through the extreme fear and confusion of 911, I have total sympathy for anyone going through something like that now.

Being still new to the area, I'm incredibly freaked out today. I think it's because I was safe in the middle of PA on 911, and I've gradually let myself forget about it (or tried to put it out of my mind.) Days like this, it just comes back with a vengeance. :cry:

[Benwa]

the day of this attack, not the date, 7-7, isn't so random i don't think.

7 bombs too. 7-7-7. I don't know if 7 is a significant number in islam. I doubt it means anything. I'm sure the G8 meeting was what made it significant. Just like on 9-11 the significance was the target, the nerve center of the american military and the cathedral of capitalism.

[dazed]

words - i'm not disagreeing with you...i think it could've been 10-10 too...the date wasn't of big significance IMO

benwa - interesting...7 bombs? hmm...i don't think 7 is any sort of lucky number in islam. i don't know if that was all planned...but it could've been...who knows what goes through these terrorists effed up minds?

[pisces2473]

Well, those who die for a jihad get 70 virgins when they get to heaven.... :lol:

[Benwa]

I'm not sure about that 7 bombs thing now. I thought I saw something that said there was four. God I hate the news. I'm sick of hearing about this thing already, thats how cynical I get when with the news.

[natbumpo]

I also heard that there were 2 unexploded bombs found. So the 7 things doesn't look siginifigant.

[Bugsey34]

I don't think there's anything to the date, and honestly, even if there is some nut somewhere dreaming up dates with special significance, I prefer not to know. What is that supposed to do, make us think of dates that might mean something so that we can stay home?

[hopeless]

I heard that London was attacked, but I didn't know the specifics until I was with a client yesterday afternoon & she told me what happened. It's just like what happened in Madrid only it was one explosion over there compared to London & more people died in Madrid than London. Of course security will be beefed in all subways & public transportation areas, but I'm not gonna stop taking the subway. People will go on as before.

[dazed]

ok, the Queen finally speaks:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050708/ap_on_re_eu/bombings_queen

[MrAnonymous]

I think some of this leads back to the Spanish. I think this attack was encouraged when after 3/11 in Spain the Spanish voted to get out of Iraq. That signalled that terrorist tactics do work in Western nations and you can influence their policies.

[shinyleaf]

Britain is being very "british" in response to this attack, reverting to the stoic defiance shown post Blitz in WWII. It's interesting how a nation's character is emphasized during crucial times. I hope it proves to be a good tactic now as it was then.

There is a lot of commentary here in Canada that we have become ignorantly comfortable in our complacency that this won't happen here. Admittedly, I was among those who felt like "it won't happen to us" until I read this:

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1121083524009_27?hub=topstories

This line is particularly resounding

"...Canada is now the only country on al-Qaeda's hit-list which hasn't been attacked."

One last thought on this whole 7/7 ordeal: Canadian governmental buildings lowered the flag to half mast on Thursday. Although I agree with the gesture of respect, are those 400 lives more valuable than the hundreds of thousands lost in Sudan by warfare? Is it just b/c Britain is a fellow Commonwealth country? More a show of politics than remorse for the loss of human life, IMO = insulting.

[J-girl]

Yeah I do find that insulting too.

Besides my office tower houses one of these G8 counsels and we had a couple of bomb threats in the past year and the subway stops in the basement of my building. Pretty scary!

[shinyleaf]

Yeah I do find that insulting too.

Besides my office tower houses one of these G8 counsels and we had a couple of bomb threats in the past year and the subway stops in the basement of my building. Pretty scary!

J-Girl I'm not going to lie. If I were you I'd be feeling like GMODC does about working near the WHite House right about now.


Oh yeah, Benwa - I"m interested in how you would see a Gandhi-like peaceful resistance taking place among al-Quaida. I agree they will have to change their strategy. It would be nice if they went all Gandhi instead of biological warfare. I can't imagine it though. I'm afraid it would take divine intervention to dissuade terrorists - an intervention that dispels the 72 virgins myth, would be a start. Unbeleiveable...The poor women in the Middle East will still be treated like subserviant objects for another 200 years I'm sure.

[J-girl]

Yeah I am pretty freaked. I almost had a breakdown last week. I work pretty close to numerous Government buildings too. But what can you do right. I am not going to get scared. Well I am but I dont want to live in fear.


Also I am not a big supporter of the Gandhian theory. Sure it looks pretty in paper but looking at the state of India before the boom- the self sustained economy and peaceful blah blah didnt really help its cause.

[Benwa]

Britain is being very "british" in response to this attack...


I saw one of those man on the street things and the guy being interviewed said he was "very annoyed." I thought how british can you get. He was so proper and, well... british. "We are quite perturbed at this. Quite a difficult predicament we are faced with I'd say. I fancy a pint, lets continue the discussion at the pub shall we." While in America its all about "let's kill them bastards, all of 'em, nuke em!! Torture them, take their balls, make them pay!!". Just two extremely different ways of looking at being attacked.

[bridgetjones]

Yeah I found it almost funny how stereotypically british they are being about this. I saw one guy who had bandages with blood ozing out of his head remain calm and composed - "why yes it was rather frightening. a cup of tea would hit the spot at the moment".

[shinyleaf]

I saw one of those man on the street things and the guy being interviewed said he was "very annoyed." I thought how british can you get. He was so proper and, well... british. "We are quite perturbed at this. Quite a difficult predicament we are faced with I'd say. I fancy a pint, lets continue the discussion at the pub shall we." While in America its all about "let's kill them bastards, all of 'em, nuke em!! Torture them, take their balls, make them pay!!". Just two extremely different ways of looking at being attacked.

LOL, you too bridgetjones.

Blimey! That was a dreadfully loud sound emanating from the underground!

If this had happened in Scotland however, I think the reaction would have sounded a lot more like the US's .... very pissed off and violent. but with funnier words and accents.

[RayJ1977]

I watched Fahrenheit 9/11 the other day...there was one scene where the soldiers talked about playing "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" and "The Roof Is On Fire," while fighting and in the tanks. One guy was all crazy eyed and sand "We Don't Need No Water Let the MF Burn....Burn MF, Burn," and then sorta laughed. Now, Michael Moore probably presented it so this attitude was directed AT civilians and kids, and the troops probably aren't thinking that is necessarily the case (they're directing it at self-preservation, the enemy, and would probably say they try to NOT hurt civilians). But it was a little creepy, still.

[Deadend]

Well, the Brits are a little more well seasoned with dealing with terrorists. You know, the whole IRA thing. Too bad Bono didn't draw that parrellell.

[Mad Dawg]

I watched Fahrenheit 9/11 the other day...there was one scene where the soldiers talked about playing "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" and "The Roof Is On Fire," while fighting and in the tanks. One guy was all crazy eyed and sand "We Don't Need No Water Let the MF Burn....Burn MF, Burn," and then sorta laughed. Now, Michael Moore probably presented it so this attitude was directed AT civilians and kids, and the troops probably aren't thinking that is necessarily the case (they're directing it at self-preservation, the enemy, and would probably say they try to NOT hurt civilians). But it was a little creepy, still.My buddy and his outfit drove around on patrol in Baghdad listening to the Beastie Boys. Soldiers do whatever is necessary to keep their morale and spirits up. Cruising around listening to music, singing along even, helps to relieve the stress of constantly being in danger of getting hit by an IED or an enemy ambush. The overwhelming majority of them are human beings who have no desire to kill anyone, but if fired at they will take care of business. It has nothing to do with the music they listen to or fun chants to help put a smile on a buddy's face.

Michael Moore is a brilliant propagandist. He is notorious for splicing together footage and audio to support his views and appeal to the emotions of his audience. There is great controversy surrounding whether or not his "documentaries" are ACTUAL documentaries as defined by the film industry. It's not beyond him to take footage of soldiers trying to have a good time and footage of soldiers doing the dirtiest of their many tasks and make it seem as if the two are one seemless event.

Trust me, no soldier under heavy fire is gloating in song over the casualties he or she is inflicting. More often than not, they're scared to death and just trying to make it out alive to sing again another day. I'm sure Moore doesn't spend much time in his films showing them setting up schools, businesses and basic city services you and I take for granted every day. That wouldn't support his views. Personally I think the man is an idiot rabble-rouser intent on furthering his agenda for as long as he can make enough money at it to have his penthouse in New York and send his children to private schools.

[shinyleaf]

good post MadDawg.

I lean a little more toward thinking there needs to be the Michael Moore's around as well, but your points were well made, and probably true. Everything is propaganda, really.

[MrAnonymous]

good post MadDawg.

I lean a little more toward thinking there needs to be the Michael Moore's around as well, but your points were well made, and probably true. Everything is propaganda, really.

Let's not diminish the work of the good in an aim to simply be open minded when we criticize others. US troops are working their best to make better a bad situation for all. You can bitch about the policy but the men and women carrying it out are almost beyond reproach. I don't think that is propaganda. The people they are combatting are not beyond reproach, regardless of weather they are the leaders or the soldiers in their goal to harm people. Their tactics involve killing and hurting as many people as possible. I don't believe that is propaganda.
People like Michael Moore attempt to make a comparison that the two are equal; like calling them insurgents. I don't believe that it is propaganda that they are morally beneath us. One thing is to fight communists who believe in a different economic model. You can argue the benefits of each model. Another is to fight a group that has yet to proclaim any vision of what they would do if they had power.

[shinyleaf]

First, I'm certainly not diminishing the work of the soldiers. I do not think they are generating propaganda, they are simply following orders, and as MadDawg noted, this is not an easy task for them, physically, emotionally and sometimes morally.
My last statement was a general one, merely reflecting my opinion that every action made with an agenda, hidden or not, can be percieved as propaganda by someone who disagrees with that action.

Yes you're right, as a collective, the troops are ALMOST beyond reproach. You aren't automatically a morally higher, braver person just because you serve in the forces.

You say "they are morally beneath us". Who are "they"? If you mean terrorists and extremists, then I would have to agree. If you mean anyone else, well, that's the kind of attitude that stars all wars now isnt' it?

Let's not forget that there is an entire population of civilians at the mercy of the troops right now, for better or worse. Is the sacrifice of a few of their inconsequential compared to the people killed in London last week, for example? I'm not assuming that you beleive this, analogman, just asking a question that tends to irk me these days. So many thousands of lives are lost, and go unlamented on the world stage.

[RayJ1977]

There is not an entire population of people at the mercy of the troops. First, that population outnumbers our troops by 15 to 1. Second, the troops are not running around the cities in Iraq causing havoc and harassing the people there....but you know who is? Foreign terrorists and insurgents bent on not allowing a free people to elect and operate their government. These non-Iraqis are entering the country and taking shots at anyone they can. I would say the people of Iraq are at the mercy of someone other than our troops.

More Michael Moore's? Sure...for those of us who like to hear fiction. F911 was a marginally good documentary at best. But it was so full of conspiracy theory hokum and bunk. And I think he exploited the lady in Flint. Were he anywhere near objective, then maybe what he does is a service. But his agenda is clear...and any service he may provide is long since become nonexistant.

[RayJ1977]

And Mad Dawg is right. I could tell he caught the soldiers on a whimsical day when they were relaxed and ran it like they were getting ready to load up the tanks and raid the local day-care. Please.

[RayJ1977]

I heard Thomas Friedman put it best. These terrorists--what we are dealing with is not a religion, it is not a movement...we are dealing with a death cult. They worship only death and they seek to promote only death. The civilization they come from cannot control them, and they have done nothing to keep them out of society as we do here with such cults and violent offenders. Until their society destroys them, locks them up, weeds them out, or eliminates them, then we have taken it upon ourself to do so, for it has begun to affect us.

[jcm12]

Michael Moore is a brilliant propagandist. He is notorious for splicing together footage and audio to support his views and appeal to the emotions of his audience. There is great controversy surrounding whether or not his "documentaries" are ACTUAL documentaries as defined by the film industry. It's not beyond him to take footage of soldiers trying to have a good time and footage of soldiers doing the dirtiest of their many tasks and make it seem as if the two are one seemless event.

A half truth is worse than a stone cold lie, and this is why Michael Moore is popular to a certain group of people. I don't know what spawned all the conspiracy theory addicts, but it probably has to do with being control freaks.

This is why I don't like talking politics with most people, they have these spoon fed ideas and beliefs from uncredited sources. Extremists have no place in our government, right or left wing.