Do protests work?

[Benwa]

I've seen and heard stories of all the protesters around the world and I think its quite impressive that many people are speaking up. But does anyone here think that protests accomplish anything? I wish I could say they do, but the gestures seems to be more symbolic than anything. It says, "hey, alot of us are against this." but when it comes down to it, they don't accomplish anything tangible. It seems whatever we say or do, nothing changes and those in charge are always going to do what they want. And when I hear a leader say, this freedom of expression is what were fighting for, it makes me a little upset. We're killing people so we can continue to be under the illusion that our opinions and what we want matters? I'm not inviting an argument here, I just want to know if anyone thinks protests are rather futile.

[dakotagopher]

Protests can have an impact, but the impact can be both good or bad for your "cause." It seems to be that a lot of the protesters i have seen lately are just out to have a good time and break stuff, ie, a mob mentality. I walked out of a client's office in Minneapolis the other night (i think it was 3/20/03), right into a big anti war protest marching down the street. Very interesting group; I walked along for a while to check things out. Probably the only dude in a suit in the whole gang. Probably lucky I didn't get beat up:) Anyway, I'd guess that about a third of the marchers were sincere in their beliefs and of a rational mind, a third were anti-establishment wackos that would protest anything the gov't was doing, and a third were just looking for something to do. What was interesting was that the people who were wackos were toally marginalizing what the sincere marchers were trying to accomplish. Who can take a sincere anti-war marcher seriously when he's walking next to a guy smoking a joint carrying a sign that says "Bush is Satan Incarnate"???? Ha. Anyway, I must reluctantly support Bush on this issue but also rabidly support the marchers' right to protest, and if they can cause a change, that is what this country is all about. I don't think that is a catch 22. What a country.

[Benwa]

gopher, your comment about protesters wanting to have a good time and break stuff reminded me of something I read once. An old indian tribe (I think iroquois) had a week long festival every year in the spring. They believed for this week, you became "crazy": and were not responsible for your actions. So, they would wear masks and went around breaking things belonging to people who they felt deserved it. How fun would that be! It would serve a very important social purpose. It lets you even out a score and let aggresion out in a controlled burst. It also could help someone realize they need to work on the way they treat people. If one person got hit particularly hard its a wake up call to consider changing. Most people who act like jerks today are never told they are acting like a jerk. We tend to let them go about their business. Maybe it could be a positive thing to go break things occasionally.

I suppose my doubts about effectiveness of protesting comes from the fact that we are so removed from the decision making process. We are expected to show up and pull the lever every few years, go home and thats pretty much it. That's not democracy. We live in the largest democracy in the world and by definition we aren't living in true democracy. And in reality majority doesn't rule in this country. More people don't vote than for any specific candidate. Granted some of those people may be lazy or forget when election day is, but voting isn't a priority because we feel so removed from the process. Sometimes I think the rulers are just watching protesters on CNN and thinking "as long as their out there, they are out of my hair" As long as we think we are making a change, we won't examine the system and maybe realize that it isn't very effective. If the things the rulers do is "for the good of all humankind" shouldn't all humankind have a say in how it is done?

Weird brake, you have a point. The civil rights protests did seems to work. But blacks were/are discrimated against for so long I wonder why the rulers decided to do something about it so late. Maybe it looked really bad politically to have a people so blatantly oppressed. I'm sure they didn't do it because it was the "right" thing to do. Also, you're right about boycotts working. Which is kind of sad, the way to get someones attention is by hitting them in the wallet. But in an issue like a war someone doesn't agree with, what can we boycott? Nothing comes to mind. Maybe weapons manufacturers, but I don't buy too many Cruise missiles anymore. Maybe only one a year. ha-ha.

I guess I'm just tired of the war and being lied to. People like us (the common rabble) are the ones who pay the true price. We are the ones who go off to get shot, we're the ones who get killed in terrorist attacks. I don't have a safe little bunker in my basement (which apparently aren't very safe anymore). And when the wars over we never see the benefits. We are the ones who return from war and can't find jobs, we are the ones who had some weird bio/chem dumped on us and have a myriad of health problems. We won't gain profits from any oil or wartime spoils. Our tax dollars are paying for the war, but the profits go to private entities. The few who make the rules get all the benefits. What kind of investment is that, everyone pays for start up, but profits only go to the select few. So to all the common rabble, go to your baseball games, sing patriotic songs, wear a ribbon or put a bumper sticker on your car, wave a tiny American flag and pretend like your making a difference. Trust the rulers when they say all is well. But whatever you do don't disobey or question the rulers to their face, because they will call down the thunder.

[sunbear]

Benwa,
you discussed how we seem to be so far from the decision making process. I agree.
The reasons why it worked at all for the blacks was because their struggles were more direct- not just with the government or the law, but our very own additudes, morals, and values. This affected the feasablity of their cause, or to say it did eventually for one reason or another. And to say, their struggles, unfortunately are not completely over either.
A lot of the protesting seems as if people were whining, or biased towards a specific party. the reason why I used the term "whining" is because it seems like all they say is "no" and "because", instead of a tangible "We should" - than the old "try peace" "give peace a chance". It's a great concept, but less idealistically and more realistically peace/diplomacy is complicated too. Also, in the case of Iraq, there are so many more variables to consider-like a wicked dictatorship, brainwashing, and attacks on our own country. I hope that this war stuff gets over with soon.

[tipsy88]

Benwa, not to start an heated arguement but instead a good stimulating conversation, your comment about not living in a true democracy, what exactly would be so better if it were a real true democracy?

This goes into the second point. yes we are so removed from the decision making process, but is it for the better is it that way? Suppose it was a true democracy and everyone had a vote in the decision making process. Can you imagine if everybody was in invovled with the process? It's hard to get 100 senators to agree on something let alone 300 million people to agree on it.

I think the real point of the matter lies in the question, how can you run a population of 300 million people with order and justice and also provide them with the means to live a relatively decent life? Every form of known government has pros and cons and honestly the real problem is human nature.

About the protest thing? Well what kind of difference are you exactly are you looking for? I think protests are very important. It gives people voice and strength to act and say their opinion. If you strictly look at tangible evidence to seek the validation of protest then i think you may be missing the very essence of protesting. You even mentioned yourself it seems more symbolic than anything, but it's more than just that. It is letting people know your voice, and getting the subject out in the open. For many this is extremely important, for example think about some of the issues where people have protested. Violence against women. People who support "take back the night" a protest of violence against women, one of its goals is to let the public know that is happens, so that people don't just turn their back and deny it exists. Sure the problem of men beating women and raping may never go away, but does that mean women and men should stop addressing it?

Some problems may never ever be solved no matter how much we speak out minds about it. But the fact that people call up the courage to stand up for something they believe in, maybe that will allow others to be inspiried by it. And even more it may even allow others to have the courage to try and stop it.

[Benwa]

I'll try to hit on all your quesitons. Why would a true democracy be better? I feel the best government is no government. So a true democracy would solve some problems but produce others, just like any other civilized system we devise. But I say if you are going to call it a democracy, then it should be exactly that. It's very plastic now. fake. Like that faux brick wallpaper. It seems like brick, but it isn't. A facade. We are told it is legit, we are told how wonderful it is and most people believe it. It's Sweet 'N Low.

Is it better this way? I would say no. People shouldn't be ruled. I don't need to be governed and neither do you.

How can you run a just gov't for a population of 300 million and provide them with decent lives? You can't which is exactly my point. We have too many people in the system. We are taxing the environment and it won't be long before something breaks. Let the people provide decent lives for themselves and small groups they live in. Most non civilized humans form groups of around 30. Of course you can have more or less, but most naturally number in the 30's.

The real problem is human nature? I definetly disagree with this thinking. Our cultural myths tell us that human is inherently flawed and we need somebody or something to straighten ourselves out. I refuse to look at people in this way because I find it false and very negative. Manipulating people with fear and guilt. " My children you are horrible creatures. The Rulers have decided what is bad and good and heres a list of all the bad things you do. But do as I say and you will be saved. You will be good people if you follow the rules." Sounds like religion, but government is the same way, which is probably why the two have been linked for so many years in so many cultures.

Protests important...give people strength... voice opinions... get it in the open... shouldn't stop addresing it? (sorry about the paraphrase, trying to wrap it up) Protests make you "feel" better but they accomplish little, like owning a little recycling bin and hardly using it. I agree that addressing and spreading word about a problem is important. But thats only part of the process and I've never been for half assing anything. Either do it or don't do it. Don't stop at getting the word out. If all you do is address it, you aren't really doing anything. True, people are always going to beat other people and kill other people and rape other people. Break down why it is poeple do bad things or allow themselves to be victimized. You'll figure it out.

[tipsy88]

Interesting. One point i would like to make is that you say people shouldn't be ruled or governed, and you go on to say let people provide decent lives for themselves and small groups they live in. But regardless whether the population is 300 million or 30, the tendancy of group behavior will eventually form into an organization with a social goverance. It occurs natually in nature. Most wild animals that travel in groups have a social order, rules from which they live by. Without some sort of social governace, the group cannot be coherent, without coherency in time there will be no group. Anarchy promotes survival of the fittest by the individual. However, when the individual in a survivalist setting is confront by an obstacle that he/she cannot overcome alone unless he/she adapts to particular in a group, that individual may never achieve the levels of "success" that the group can achieve.

About the human nature, perhaps i stated it wrong. When i talk about problem, it is from a moral standard that does not have any religious ties to it. In fact it comes down to having done to other what you would like have done on to you. Some may argue that is religious, but i don't think it is. Its just simply how someone wants to be treated. Given that context, we assign moral values on actions which we can generally agree on. Such as killing someone without some sort of prevaling logic is "morally wrong". Why because we don't want ourselves to be killed for no apparent reason.

So when i talked about the problem of human nature i mean the things people do to other just because they can, because they have the power to, without regard to how others (people,animals, things) may be affected. If you don't think this is human nature then what do you think causes the phenomenon I described in the first sentence? so why is this a problem? Because this type of behavior cause people to not care about the things they use and end up abusing.

Can you imagine if everyone took in consideration how everyone would feel because they did something? though it could be possible, it sounds too idealistic. If you would like to prove me wrong, try living your life where you do anything to anyone or thing just because you can, or without having regard to how that object may be adversly affected by your actions. Lastly, i stated it was a problem, but maybe it's not really a "problem" but more of a fact. The fact is that lots of the things you see in this world are a direct result of our human nature, be it constructive and destructive. So i correct myself by saying it's not nature that's particular bad, but i believe it is the source for some of the "problems" we see in civilization. Lastly this is not to say that human nature need be corrected.

As for the protest things. Some problems never have solutions, does that mean we should stop trying to find one? Hope is a dangerous thing, but so is despair. At least one of feelings allows you to continue your life wihtout feeling empty and wihtout feeling.