Justification for War????

[dakotagopher]

OK, I would be interested to know your input on the following. Recieved this in an email the other day. I normally do not pay much attention to analogous "arguments" like this, but for some reason this one caught my eye. Somewhat simplistic, but interesting nonetheless.

A LESSON TO MY SON
by A PROUD AMERICAN
Irma S. Chambers

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation. My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our front living room window.

He told him: "Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"

"I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses," he replied.

"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United States of America and you are President Bush."

Our son giggled and said "OK."

"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country," my husband said.

"OK, Dad, I'm pretending."

"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this, son....what do you do?"

"Dad?"
>
"What do you do, son?!"

"I call the police, Dad."

"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do then, son?!"

"Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine.

"They don't want to, son, because they say that it is not their place or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says.

"But, Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.

"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor, who you're pretending is Saddam, turn around and do the same thing to his children."

"Daddy...he kills them?"

"Yes, son, he does. What do you do?"

Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him," our son says.

"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my husband says.

"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"

"WHAT DO YOU DO, SON?"

Our son starts to cry.

"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next, son?"

"What, Daddy?"

"He walks across the street to the old lady's house and breaks down her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing at the window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"

"Daddy..."

"WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"

Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the blinds, Daddy."

My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him..."Why?"

"Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help...people who need it....and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself...Daddy.....I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds....so I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening."

I start to cry.

My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells him...."Son?"

"Yes, Daddy."

"Open the blinds because that man....he's at your front door...WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!!"

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY, DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"

I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his chest and hugs him tight, and cries..."It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone, before......it's too late." my husband whispers.

THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let evil happen it is the greatest EVIL of all. Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove this evil man from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window and see crimes on humanity. So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" the blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him. Today, the second day of "WAR on IRAQ", I felt compelled to write this and pass it along. Hopefully, you will understand the lesson my husband tried to teach our son.

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OURCHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS...."

[dakotagopher]

Yup, arguments by analogy tend to shift focus from facts at hand for the "specific" toward an emotional focus to the "general." I tend to view analogous based argument to be a bit of a cop out. Thus i am not sure why this particular argument caught my attention, but it seems to make some sense.

[Benwa]

Oh what a lovely tale. A father justifies war to his child. Isn't it the goal to end wars, shouldn't he be telling his child peaceful solutions to the matter? Ingrained in the collective american identity is that we are innocents and every action is of high moral character. When the towers were struck, I don't remember anyone mentioning how maybe, just maybe, we could have brought this problem on ourselves. Why? Because we couldn't do something bad enough to warrant an attack like that. We're innocents by golly!

Just to drop a tidbit of trivia. At the end of the gulf war, there was a cease fire agreement, stating no american soldier was to interfere with iraqi rebuilding policies. Saddam was busy "controlling rebellions" which basically means killing and maiming a sh*tload of people. Our soldiers had to sit back and watch as these people were destroyed. Doesn't sound like we were fighting for the people then. We were good men, standing by as evil deeds were commited (getting from the story).

There's such a high moralistic overtone to what americans do that its almost comical. The Rulers decided to call this thing Operation Iraqi Freedom. It's an operation because war sounds bad. And Iraqi Freedom. I may say I'm against the war, so others say "so, your against Iraqi freedom!" No, I didn't say that. There's a general "all or nothing" idea we have going on here. The big W even said it, that you are with us or against us. This isn't binary, it isn't a 1 or a 0. I can be for a free Iraq, support our troops and oppose war at the same time. Just because I don't agree one gazillion percent with the administration, don't make me feel like I'm public enemy number one. Doesn't the binary thinking scare anyone else? I avoid making an analogy so powerful as this, but that's borderline Hitler mentality. (another random trivia item, do you know why Hitler wore his mustache the way he did?? Because his favorite film star was Charlie Chaplin, who had a square mustache. What a frickin' tool! That's like W getting his hair cut like george clooney.)

For the story, ther must be some peaceful solutions. How about you spray the neighbor with the hose while he's beating his wife. He'll stop. Also a man just doesn't suddnely kill his wife. He usually beats her for their whole life together and one day takes it to far. Get the wife out before she gets killed. Saddam was the same way, he started out by being just a little bit bad and we didn't say anything, so it escalated. But the vital link is the children of the neighbor man. Several things will happen. They get big enough to take on dad and kick his ass royally. They see how he is and vow never to be that way. Or they grow to be just ike him. Work on the kids (the people of iraq) be sure they've got the skills to do the right thing. Sometimes you can't save the mother, but you can almost always save the children.

[dakotagopher]

Benwa - you're obviously allowed to believe what you like, but your reasoning does appear clouded by some serious angst toward the USA. This bitterness is preventing you from viewing this situation objectively, in my opinion.

Terrorism is not caused by America or by America's policies. Terrorism is caused by poverty and resultant hopelessness. Religous extremists have always used poverty to leverage their crackheaded will onto the ignorant that follow them out of lack of hope.

The best way to eliminate terrorism is to make every islamic nation an economic success, thus creating jobs, health care, etc, a general FUTURE, for the populus. That this has not happened to date in most Islamic nations (notable exception: Turkey and arguable Egypt) is what is at the core of the neoconservative movement: it will never happen until the Old Order is rooted out and some kind of functioning democracy is established that will spread the wealth and allow more of the populus to be happy.

Since 1945, we've been content to take a "wait and see" approach to the middle east (while we encouraged democracy almost everywhere else), assuming in time that the populus of these nations would rise up and demand more for themselves from their rulers and the massive wealth their natural resources provide. AFter 9-11, however, the gov't realized that the opposite was happening: instead of becoming incited against the rulers that keep them down, the populus of these nations have become incited against America by the mouthpieces of these rulers (guys like Osama & other fanatical mullahs). With the potential exposure of WMD related attacks in the future, we cannot continue to take a wait and see approach. We must use a firm hand.

Also, your statment that our failure to finish the job back in 1991 somehow justifies continued ignorance of the problem makes no sense. Should we not learn from past mistakes? It seems you are unwilling to give GW Bush the benefit of the doubt? This is a new administration after all, no?

When good people turn their heads and ignore evil, they ENABLE evil. Have we done this in the past? Certainly. To somehow use that as a rationalization for doing so in the future makes no sense to me; maybe you can explain it.

Study history. Sometimes the ultimate goal (a peaceful solution) just won't work (a guy named Neville Chamberlain learned this to his horror). When it won't work we must not shrink from our responsibility of what comes next.

We live in an Enlightened Society here in America; after a few decades it becomes very easy to forget that there are monsters roaming the earth that will not listen to reason, negotiation or logic. These men have to be dealt with firmly. To assume everyone is as enlightened as us, ie, that they value the rule of law, etc, is folly. Spraying them with a hose is just another way of closing the blinds - you don't want to deal with the problem, you just want it to go out of sight.

[dakotagopher]

Following is a copy of a letter to the editor from the Mpls Star Trib, somewhat trite but does prompt some thought:

Peace for us (title)

Peace, peace, peace. Let's have peace. Let's not have war. There is nothing better than peace. We want it at all costs. In a peaceful state we don't have to think about people we don't know and the bad things that happen to them because, when we are at peace, their suffering doesn't exist.

Why make a big deal about all the torture and death others suffer? Maybe they like to be governed by oppressive criminals. Maybe they like to die of starvation and lack of medical care while officials live in luxury. How is that our business? Why go around worrying that countries might attack their neighbors or us for that matter? Peace was just fine the way it was, when we knew absolutely nothing about the suffering of others.

Why does our government have to ruin things and start a war over people we knew nothing about, who were probably doing just fine without us? Don't they know that peace at any price is worth it? Isn't it?

Aldo Terrazas, Minneapolis.

[Benwa]

WB: Where is all this hostility coming from? You say why am I such a hater? I'm not the one telling those of opposing views that they deserve a bullet between the eyes. Why should I get the hell out? This is my home just as much as it is yours. You show a prime example of the binary thinking I talked about. If I'm against what America is doing, then I certainly must support what Osama and Saddam do? It isn't all black and all white. Our enemies may have valid reasons for doing the things they do, but I don't agree with the ways the deal with them. Just like I don't agree how america has been dealing with its problems.

You said I was a hypocrit because I have compassion for the talibban and the likes but not for Americans? I never said I didn't have compassion for americans. I think, like most people, that it is tragic to have american victims of terrorism. It's a hard thing when a family member dies, let alone killed by an act of war they had very little to do with. But you don't honor their memory or cultivate compassion for their families by killing others in much the same way they were killed.

Let's say the only motivations for the terrorist was religious fervor. Why mow them down, what will this do except fill some lust for revenge in our hearts. Why do we deal with criminal in other countries differently? When the Oklahoma city bombing happened and the later suspected Mcveigh, did they bomb Montana? No. Because that would make no sense if you already have the guy. Your a law student. We should be using some quality investigative work and bring them to justice according to the same standards we hold for all international criminals. Isn't this much more logical and cheaper than launching the bombers.

Gopher: Thanks for your milder comments, at least you don't suggest I get a cyber a$$ kicking. Your right that poverty fuels the fires for groups like taliban. On the geopolitics field, america plays a role (even if its passive one) in the wealth of third world countries. I'm not saying just give them money, but if we do intervene, it tends to be for the benfit of us and not for the country.

I agree with using a firm hand. If we are going to be the top dog then we need the foresight to nip problems in the bud. But Firm hand does not mean iron fist. We don't have to conquer people in order to solve problems.

Peaceful solutions do work. You just have to be more balls out than the other guy. In fact peaceful tactics were more effective in the american revolution than were violent ones. They will work if you give it an honest chance.

[Benwa]

Attacking my grammar. Wait while I wipe a tear. You see, I realize this is just a message board and can seperate from it. Grammar is not an issue in this form of writing. Just like when we speak, proper english isn't always used depending on your geographic location and the context. You seem to be identifying with this message board an awful lot, especially if you remeber a typo on a deleted post.

But you have changed my mind about everything. Through your pointing out my typography errors I realize you are a better person than I am and I am a wee nothing. A little turd on the bootheel of the only decent people like yourself. One day I aspire to be able to be a suberbly wonderful person like you. But this is impossible because I am a wretched human who is a fake, a fraud and will never be able to achieve an iota of the vast enlightenment you posess. You are an inspiration for all humanity and I hope you one day receive a Nobel Peace prize for your life dedication to loving all other creatures even those who are vastly different from you. I used to think Gandhi not receiving the the Peace Prize was wrong, but now I realize that if it were to be passed over you, there is little hope for the rest of the world.

I hope that one day I can resemble you in any way. I hope I can attatch myself to a message board, actually live through it. Where my opinions that I write on it are an extension of myself and any attack on them is an attack on myself. For those I feel attacked by, I could attack them right back. Thereby validating my opinions, myself and proving that I know right. It would allow me a bit of control over a life that is uncontrollable. No matter what would happen I would know that at least I know what is infinitely right. And if I'm right then I'm ahead of the game. I hope I can one day know what is always right. I hope.