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pisces2473
05-29-2003, 08:26 AM
From 5/29 New York Times...can you believe this????


Tax Law Omits Child Credit in Low-Income Brackets
By DAVID FIRESTONE


WASHINGTON, May 28 — A last-minute revision by House and Senate leaders in the tax bill that President Bush signed today will prevent millions of minimum-wage families from receiving the increased child credit that is in the measure, say Congressional officials and outside groups.

Most taxpayers will receive a $400-a-child check in the mail this summer as a result of the law, which raises the child tax credit, to $1,000 from $600. It had been clear from the beginning that the wealthiest families would not receive the credit, which is intended to phase out at high incomes.

But after studying the bill approved on Friday, liberal and child advocacy groups discovered that a different group of families would also not benefit from the $400 increase — families who make just above the minimum wage.

Because of the formula for calculating the credit, most families with incomes from $10,500 to $26,625 will not benefit. The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a liberal group, says those families include 11.9 million children, or one of every six children under 17.

"I don't know why they would cut that out of the bill," said Senator Blanche Lincoln, the Arkansas Democrat who persuaded the full Senate to send the credit to many more low income families before the provision was dropped in conference. "These are the people who need it the most and who will spend it the most. These are the people who buy the blue jeans and the detergent and who will stimulate the economy with their spending."

Ms. Lincoln noted that nearly half of all taxpayers in her state had adjusted gross incomes that were less than $20,000.

Families with incomes lower than $10,500 will also not receive the refund checks. But under the 2001 tax revision, they would not have been eligible for either the $600 or the $1,000 credits because they do not pay federal taxes. Proposals to give them the credits failed on the House and Senate floors on party-line votes.

The Senate provision that did pass was intended to help those families making $10,500 to $26,625 who do pay federal taxes and could have taken all or part of the $600 credit. The provision, which would have cost $3.5 billion, would have allowed those families to receive some or all of the extra $400 in the new law.

Most families with children who make about $30,000 or less are also eligible for the earned income credit, which the law does not not change. In addition, the law has a few other benefits for low income earners, like expanding the lowest tax bracket and a temporary reduction in the penalty on two-income couples.

Several centrist senators worked hard to make the child credit fully refundable for all low income families, and the full Senate voted this month to include a provision that would have included the minimum-wage families. But the provision was dropped in the House-Senate conference, where tax writers spent days trying to cram many tax cuts — most prominently, cuts in the taxes on stock dividends and capital gains — into a bill that the Senate said could not be larger than $350 billion.

House Republicans, who acknowledged the gap on the child credit, blamed the Senate for insisting on its $350 billion cap, saying the low-income families could have been covered had the Senate been more flexible.

A spokeswoman for the Republicans on the House Ways and Means Committee, Christin Tinsworth, noted that the provision was included in an agreement reached last week by Representative Bill Thomas, Republican of California, the committee chairman, and Senator Charles E. Grassley, Republican of Iowa, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee.

That agreement would have cost $380 billion, but it fell apart when an important swing senator, George V. Voinovich, Republican of Ohio, said he could not approve any bill that exceeded $350 billion. To satisfy him and the Senate, Ms. Tinsworth said, the child credit provision was dropped, along with other costs.

"The Senate preferred to have $20 billion in state aid," she said. "But when we had to squeeze it all to $350 billion, they weren't talking about the child credits. This bill does a lot to help people who need help. But its primary purpose was to generate jobs. Apparently, whatever we do is not going to be enough for some segments of the population."

But Democrats and children's advocacy groups said the Republican demand for large cuts in the dividend tax, which they said benefits primarily wealthy taxpayers, pushed away the credit from low income families.

"If we were going to have a tax cut to give $1,000 to all these other kids, there's no reason not to include these kids, too," said David Harris, president of the Children's Research and Education Institute. "Their families are working and playing by the rules and are left out, though it would not have cost too much to include them."

A spokeswoman for Mr. Voinovich said the senator would have been happy to extend the child credits, but believed that the entire package should not pass $350 billion. The tax writers were free to reduce the dividend tax cut, noted the spokeswoman, Marcie Ridgway.

The gap in the number of families who receive the child credit occurs because of how the formula was arranged in 2001. Congress decided then to give refunds of the credit to low income families, but just to a maximum of 10 percent of the amount they made over $10,000, or a refund of $600, whichever was lower. The $10,000 amount was indexed to inflation and is now $10,500.

When the credit was raised to $1,000, many families could not qualify for the extra amount, because the 10 percent maximum still limited them. Ms. Lincoln proposed raising the formula to 15 percent, which would have covered the increase in the credit for most of those families. Her proposal made it through the Senate Finance Committee, but later she voted against the full cut.

Because her vote and those of other supporters were not necessary for final passage, Republicans knew they could drop the provision without hurting the bill's chances in the Senate.

"I guess this shows us what our priorities are," Ms. Lincoln said. "I think this tax bill is very irresponsible in the way it treats families."

jku
05-29-2003, 10:20 AM
Make no mistake,with that tax bill being signed, WAR on the poor and middle class has begun - and the people don't even know it.

Interesting that Arkansas will lose, in addition to many other Southern states - considering they VOTED for Bush/GOP in 2000/2004.

Hey George, if you're so against DOUBLE taxation, screw cutting dividend tax - GIVE ME A BREAK on my
double taxation on my PAYCHECK AND INCOME TAX! But no - like the cheap whore you view the middle class, you will give us a few 100 bucks, and make us PAY big time when your long gone out of office at your multi-million dollar with the CARLYLE CORPORATION.

This IS class warfare. In 10 years, when people on this list are supporting their kids, themselves, AND their parents - plus paying TAXES through the roof - then all these "radio conservative voters" will LOOK BACK IN ANGER.

All you young people out ther who support George W - do you REALLY understand what he is REALLY about yet? Vote for him at your own peril.

pisces2473
05-29-2003, 10:28 AM
I don't get the logic (or lack thereof) in the reasoning behind this. Let's NOT give poor people money that they desperately need (even if it is a one-time rebate, but still that could mean the difference of a sick child getting necessary medical treatment or the child DYING, for God's sake!), but give the upper end of the middle class the money? Okay, because that makes sense. I am glad to see that the very rich aren't getting any tax rebates, but still...they get enough tax breaks as it is (divdend taxes are being reduced). This ass-backwards Reganomics way of thinking that if the rich aren't taxed they'll spend more money to fuel the economy is bullshit. If they don't spend the money and choose to save it, what good is it to anyone but themselves with the interest they'll receive? The money that they do spend is going right to the big companies who still pay their workers a pittance and then you're back to the poor people still suffering. When will people see that it JUST DOES NOT WORK!?!?!?!

reva_544
05-29-2003, 10:47 AM
What are you talking about?! What's YOUR double taxation?

Lots of people will benefit from this tax bill. I won't, and yes, the wealthy will quite a bit due to the accelerated rate decrease, but so will plenty of the middle class. But your multi-billion dollar corporations are not benefitting here. Corporate rates have not changed and they will continue to pay plenty of tax

Over 25 million people WILL recevied the $400 refund in the next couple of months. That is a LOT of freaking money that's being poured back into the economy and going to people who are going to SPEND it (because the child tax credit is phased out at certain income levels!). The marriage penalty is virtually gone for the next couple of years. That's a lot of money too.

George Bush is not the devil. If you want to know what the tax cut is really about, read the following article:

http://www.kiplinger.com/features/archives/2003/05/taxcut.html

I've got plenty more information on this if you want it. I'm not getting much of a break here because I'm not married and don't have children (or stocks), but I am also not poor or unemployed. Lots of other people aren't getting what they would like from tax cuts...but LOTS of people are!

jku
05-29-2003, 11:20 AM
Thanks for the article Reva - your expertise and knowledge is MUCH appreciated.

The article says most everything we already know - basically, that most people will save a few $100 as they move tax brackets over 2-3% in each column.

So BUSH wants me to vote for him in exchange for a few 100 dollars in short-term, but I'll be paying 1000s in the long term as deficits explode and pretty much ALL social programs and medicare are destroyed?
Please tell us what you think of this:
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1051390392975&p=1012571727088

As for MY double taxation, am I wrong in saying that my paycheck is subject to both income tax and payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare?

Most polls say that people believe the government should keep the money and spend it on Homeland Security and saving Medicare/Social Security. People believe the tax cuts won't save the economy, and since psychology has a lot to do with the market - in a literal and figurative sense it can't work.

Why was the debt limit raised to 1 TRILLION dollars with ZERO media, the day before he had a huge media event for signing the tax cuts? I'm trying to look at the big picture - what am I NOT seeing?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/29/opinion/29HERB.html

reva_544
05-29-2003, 01:32 PM
Honestly, I don't worry much about the national debt or deficits. Not because of any conclusion I have come to on my own, but because of a class that I took in college. The professor wasn't worried about national debt levels at all and he made a whole lot of sense at time (but since this was about 4 years ago, I couldn't regergitate what he said and have it makes sense). But I greatly respected him as a freaking economic genius at the time, so that's why I don't worry.

But people need jobs NOW! Ask anyone who's unemployed. The economy needs a boost NOW! As the cliche goes, "We are a NOW society." Bush is hoping this will help.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. We really have no way of knowing for sure, because the economy is CYCLICAL! You know, it kind of appears that what Bush has done with tax cuts since he has been in office has not helped the economy, and therefore, LOTS of people place him at fault for their hard times. But MAYBE things would be WORSE if he didn't do those things. I wish more people realized that the economy is CYCLICAL and that the President did not cause an economic downturn. The economy will thrive again, and it will suck again sometime after that...it's just how it works!

As for the double taxation thing, yes you do have money withheld from your paycheck for Federal income tax, social security, and medicare. However, I made my comment because that is not the double taxation the President was trying to get rid of. Corporations still pay their share of payroll taxes on top of Federal income tax. Corporate dividends are paid out of corporate profits, but they are not tax deductible, and therefore subject to corporate tax rates (anywhere from 15 to 35%). THEN, when the indivdual (or corporate) stockholder receives those dividends, they are subject to tax on the stockholder's return as well (at rates as high as 38.6, actually now 35%). So the corporate profits gets taxed for Federal income tax twice. That is what is meant by double taxation, not paying two different taxes. Under the new plan, the second taxation of corporate profits would be taxed somewhere between 5 and 15% depending on the taxpayers income level. So Bush was unsuccessful in full relief, but he got a little.

jku
05-29-2003, 01:52 PM
Thanks Reva - excellent explanation, I have a clearer understanding of the difference.

You are right in saying we still have no idea what these tax cuts will do. However, the last tax cuts were sold with the same promise of results, and they haven't happened.

My fear of this Administration's policies is further intensified by Billionaires George Soros and Warren Buffet (two of the wealthiest men in the World):

Soros joined another billionaire, Warren Buffett, in a stinging attack on the White House tax cut plan centred on the ending of tax on dividends. The senate is expected to approve the tax cuts by
next week.
"The administration is basically using the recession to redistribute income to the wealthy," Mr Soros said. Mr. Buffet dubbed the cuts "voodoo economics" in yesterday's Washington Post.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,960213,00.html

Can two billionaire investors possibly know anything about economics?