Elimination of Christmas

[HereComes30]

I am curious everyone's thoughts on this... the word "Christmas" is quickly being erradicated from our society. It is now "Holiday Season" or "Holidays" or some other bizarre wording. Retail stores are calling it "Holiday Sales" now and Lowe's has gone as far as to rename Christmas trees "holiday trees".

And then of course there is a the elimination of Christmas carols in schools...nativity scenes in public places...and the list goes on and on and on...I am surprised they allow angel shaped lights on the electric poles in my town anymore.

So what do you think? Has the PC gone too far? Is this fair and balanced to prevent discrimination and domination of one religion? Where is the line drawn? Are you offended by the word Christmas?

[WeirdBrake]

Why is this even an issue? Using the word "holiday" is more inclusive, and businesses have an obvious interest in not alienating people. I don't see it as any kind of "eradication of Christmas." Why is it PC gone overboard? I guess I don't see who is harmed by replacing "Christmas" with "holiday." It seems like good common sense to me. Why is the word holiday bizarre?

[ledzeppelinfan1]

The world hates Jesus...thats just the way it is.

[HereComes30]

It's been Christmas forever...why the change now? Does it take away from the meaning and tradition when you make it generalized? Is it really an attempt to appeal to broader audiences or a fear of a lawsuit from a radical?

[shimmer728]

Well, yes, the majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, but I don't see anything wrong with referring to the Christmas season as "the holiday season." What about all the people who celebrate Hanukkah? I don't know. I don't really care.

[HereComes30]

Shouldn't people that celebrate Hannukah feel equally as disappointed that it is now Holiday and not Hannukah? Of course any other religious symbols, traditions, and holidays are not under the attack like those of Christians.

[shimmer728]

Shouldn't people that celebrate Hannukah feel equally as disappointed that it is now Holiday and not Hannukah? Of course any other religious symbols, traditions, and holidays are not under the attack like those of Christians.

I'm not sure about that. I think ALL religious symbols, whether they're menorahs or Christmas trees, are "under attack," as you put it. People are just hyper-sensitive about this kind of thing these days. I just read a story about it over the weekend.

I really don't have a problem with the stores, etc. promoting the "holidays" over Christmas. I know I celebrate Christmas. :)

[WeirdBrake]

I'm still not understanding why being all-inclusive regarding religion translates to Christmas being "under attack." Are malls actively trying to dissuade people from practicing Christianity? Are there store messages being broadcast urging people to reject Jesus? Are radio stations running public service announcements saying, "And by the way, if you celebrate Christmas, YOU SUCK!"? It doesn't seem that there's any attack on Christmas or Christians or anything like that. It seems like people are trying to be more inclusive. I'm not seeing how "Happy Holidays" is an affront to Christians.

[WeirdBrake]

Shouldn't people that celebrate Hannukah feel equally as disappointed that it is now Holiday and not Hannukah?

No. Why should anyone feel disappointed that their religion isn't specifically mentioned by name by business or gov't? It's certainly recognized plenty by their places of worship and by their fellow followers. No one's trying to shut down churches, right?

[ledzeppelinfan1]

I'm still not understanding why being all-inclusive regarding religion translates to Christmas being "under attack." Are malls actively trying to dissuade people from practicing Christianity? Are there store messages being broadcast urging people to reject Jesus? Are radio stations running public service announcements saying, "And by the way, if you celebrate Christmas, YOU SUCK!"? It doesn't seem that there's any attack on Christmas or Christians or anything like that. It seems like people are trying to be more inclusive. I'm not seeing how "Happy Holidays" is an affront to Christians.

At this time your post count is 6,666...ironic huh?

...actually it doesn't mean shit, just funny considering the topic.

[MetFanL]

I don't see it as a big deal. I mean, you can wish your Jewish friends a Happy Hanukkah and your Christian friends a Merry Christimas... Businesses don't have the luxury of knowing the religion of everyone who walks into their stores, so they generalize to include everyone... I would rather it be all-inclusive than one person feel alienated.

[meatwad]

I wonder if my boss will be buying a new Holiday Candelabra this year?

It's just a bunch of politically correct BS.

[ledzeppelinfan1]

I don't think it fucking matters. I mean, just because some stores aren't using the word Christmas, doesn't mean that people will forget its actually called Christmas and it will cease to be refered to as Christmas by most people, religious or not.

[wordsmith]

By referring to it as "holiday" season, merchandisers can capitalize on people of all traditions. All is marketing.

Christmas doesn't offend me. Neither do the names of holidays in religion other than my own. "OH, my Lord! Do NOT say "Ramadan" around me!" Um, no.

[old_school_soul]

I think it's fine. Promoting Christmas is promoting Christ, and that's not the job of a retail store. They are going to do what brings in the most money. Think it's crap? Well, don't buy from them.

[meatwad]

Well, considering that Christmas is a nationally recognized secular holiday in addition to being a Christian holiday, there is no reason to NOT use the word. But that's the point of living in the US. If a large enough group of people are 'offended' then call it one thing. If not, leave it as it is. There seems to be a little too much it might be offensive so we better change it going on for my taste.

[wordsmith]

Trees have spiritual meaning dating back to pagan religions...they predate Christianity as spiritual symbols. Christianity co-opted them. It's the circle of life imagery, initially.

[cheshrcarol]

I like the term "holiday" season. To me, it means everything from Thanksgiving, Christmas, Hannukah, Ramadan, Kwanzaa, to New Year. Personally I like to send out "holiday" or "season's greetings" cards, because I am not technically a christian and neither are all of my friends. Although, I think "holiday trees" is a little silly. And as for Jews being upset that it's the not the "Hannuakah Season", most Jewish people would just laugh at that. Technically, Hannukah is a fairly insignificant holiday, but because it falls near Christmas a bigger deal gets made out of it.

[pisces2473]

I am curious everyone's thoughts on this... the word "Christmas" is quickly being erradicated from our society. It is now "Holiday Season" or "Holidays" or some other bizarre wording. Retail stores are calling it "Holiday Sales" now and Lowe's has gone as far as to rename Christmas trees "holiday trees".
Since when did retailers care about the "true" meaning of Christmas, ie, the birth of Christ anyway???

[ledzeppelinfan1]

Since when did retailers care about the "true" meaning of Christmas, ie, the birth of Christ anyway???

LOL, no shit.

[jrwilheim]

Personally, I appreciate businesses referring to their sales this time of year as "holiday sales" and such like. It makes me feel more included as a Jew, since I don't feel I'm being told "this sale is only for people who celebrate Christmas" (not that I would really think this anyway or refuse to participate in a Christmas sale, but still....). When a store calls its sale a holiday sale, it acknowledges that people may be shopping for a number of different holidays, including Hannukah and Kwanzaa, not just Christmas.

On the other hand, I do think it's kind of ridiculous the way school vacations that used to be called Christmas and Easter vacations get re-named as Winter and Spring vacations. I can recall exactly ONCE in all my years of schooling that a Spring Vacation didn't coincide with Easter, and that was only because Easter was very late that year (late April). No non-sectarian school in this country doesn't schedule its Winter Vacation in such a way that it doesn't conflict with Christmas. So let's be honest about this--the holiday exists so that the Christian majority can celebrate Christmas. Fine, I'm cool with that--of course vacations should coincide with the needs of the majority of the students and population. I don't need the vacation re-named for "sensitivity" reasons.

I do think calling a Christmas tree a "holiday tree" is overkill in the PC department. Christmas trees are part of the celebration of one particular holiday this time of year--Christmas. I don't feel excluded by the term "Christmas tree" because the tree is something a non-Christian wouldn't participate in anyway, sort of the same way I don't need nativity scenes renamed just because the birth of Jesus isn't spiritually significant to me. Actually, I'd probably be more offended by the term "holiday tree" because I feel it's a euphemism and implies that the tree is part of everybody's holiday when it isn't.

[ledzeppelinfan1]

Society is a joke when it comes to subjects like this...and thats why I love South Park.

[Ciderhillnh]

I can understand businesses calling parties Holiday Parties etc. I can understand stores calling their sales holiday sales.....

What I cant understand is when schools, or other various places such as town commons ban Christmas decorations or talk of Christmas, or singing of Christmas carols, but they allow every other holiday and its decorations and songs to be enjoyed.

I watched it happen when I was a kid and it has just progessively gotten worse. Its not fair. If you are going to ban Christmas decorations (like Xmas trees, santa and rudolph) then you should ban ALL decorations that relate to any specific holiday.

When I was growing up we couldnt sing Here comes Santa claus, but we could sing dradle dradle dradle and display menorahs. We couldnt have Xmas cookies, but we had potato pancakes.

All or nothing. You can decorate with menorahs and have a santa decoration next to it with kwanzaa items along side.

So to me, yes its an issue that it has become THIS PC.

[jrwilheim]

I liked that "holiday tree" description, jrwilheim.

Sort of related side note: one of my uncles is married to a Jewish woman and they still put up a tree, but she refers to it as a "Hannukah Bush," which I think is cute because she says it, not because I think others should start calling them that.

Yeah...some Jews who are very assimilated, secular, or intermarried sometimes call their Christmas tree a "Hannukah bush" so they can pretend they aren't celebrating Christmas when everyone around them knows they are. I'd be kind of offended if a Christian friend insisted on calling a Hannukiah a "Christmas candlabra" or something similar, so I think we Jews should show the same respect for Christian traditions by not calling a Christmas tree a Hannukah bush.

[pisces2473]

Sorta on the same tangent as a tree/bush...do Jews put up wreaths? I'm sorry if this sounds ignorant, but I'm curious...

[wordsmith]

Both menorahs and evergreen trees as spiritual symbols have roots that predate Judaism and Christianity, anyway.

[summergold]

What I find interesting is that the majority of Christian holidays were originally Pagan holidays (I think Words mentioned this above). In order to convert the masses to Christianity, the holidays were incorporated into Christianity and given a Christian significance. Christ was not born in December. The actual time has been pegged around late August or early September. The Christmas tree does have religious significance, for Pagans. Yule was the Pagan holiday that was turned into Christmas, it's also very close to Solstice, another Pagan observance. My personal opinion is that if you call it a Christmas tree, a Hannukah Bush, or Holiday tree, it's still the same thing. An ancient Pagan practice that we've thrown some tinsel on and renamed, just like we have for centuries.

[wordsmith]

It's not just Christianity...there are Jewish traditions rooted in ancient mysticism as well. A festival of lights like Hanukkah is by nature not far removed from pagan practices of lighting sacred fires to light the darkness during the darkest portion of the year. Most everything is borrowed from earlier beliefs in some way.

[jrwilheim]

Sorta on the same tangent as a tree/bush...do Jews put up wreaths? I'm sorry if this sounds ignorant, but I'm curious...

Well, you can find Jews who do everything for Christmas that Christians do, because the forces of assimilation are very strong in the United States, but from a religious perspective, I think it's inappropriate for a Jew to put a Christmas wreath on the door. My understanding is that the wreath is a reference to the crown of thorns Jesus wore on the cross (the red berries representing Jesus's blood). So I think it's definitely inappropriate for a religious Jew to have a Christmas wreath.

That doesn't mean we can't respect our Christian neighbors who participate in this tradition, or admire a pretty wreath the way we would any other kind of Christmas decoration, but I think in general it's not a good idea for Jews to have Christmas decorations in their homes.

[pisces2473]

Well, you can find Jews who do everything for Christmas that Christians do, because the forces of assimilation are very strong in the United States, but from a religious perspective, I think it's inappropriate for a Jew to put a Christmas wreath on the door. My understanding is that the wreath is a reference to the crown of thorns Jesus wore on the cross (the red berries representing Jesus's blood). So I think it's definitely inappropriate for a religious Jew to have a Christmas wreath.

That doesn't mean we can't respect our Christian neighbors who participate in this tradition, or admire a pretty wreath the way we would any other kind of Christmas decoration, but I think in general it's not a good idea for Jews to have Christmas decorations in their homes.
Gotcha. Thanks for the reply. :)

I seriously did not know the significance of the wreath...I'm a bad Christian.

[wordsmith]

Wreathes aren't originally any more Christian a symbol than evergreen trees are. They were co-opted by Christians to symbolize the birth of Christ, used first as Advent wreathes with candles. But they have their roots dating back to ancient Rome, when laurel wreathes were used in a celebratory fashion. Way before Christianity.

[pisces2473]

Hey Words, when you were saying how the menorah stems from Pagan beliefs, did you mean the Pagans of northern Europe? Or Pagans in the now-Holy Land? I was just confused as to how the Pagan ways spread that far south so long ago.

[wordsmith]

Folk religion and the worshipping various nature deities, and coming up with ways to explain natural phenomena, etc. has been widespread throughout the world. Celtic paganism is only one sort of folk religion.

[jrwilheim]

Wreathes aren't originally any more Christian a symbol than evergreen trees are. They were co-opted by Christians to symbolize the birth of Christ, used first as Advent wreathes with candles. But they have their roots dating back to ancient Rome, when laurel wreathes were used in a celebratory fashion. Way before Christianity.

That may be, but their use in Christmas displays nonetheless has a Christian significance.

I'm also not entirely sure that Christmas trees have a pagan origin. The story I had always heard was that Martin Luther saw a tree glistening in the snow one Christmas, saw it as some sort of sign of revelation, and brought it home to his family and decorated it with candles so they would experience what he did (I'll look for a source on this).

[wordsmith]

Honestly, that may be, as a Lutheran, the most romantic story I've ever heard about Martin Luther. We tend to focus on his legendary flatulence in confirmation. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure on that, since I'm sure Roman Catholics co-opted the tree as a symbol prior to the Protestant Reformation. But it's not to say that that legend doesn't exist. However, I'd bet Christians and others were already using evergreens as symbolic of rebirth.

I do know, though, that candles on a tree IS still a traditional German decoration. My mom has some antique candle clips from the old country.

[jrwilheim]

Honestly, that may be, as a Lutheran, the most romantic story I've ever heard about Martin Luther. We tend to focus on his legendary flatulence in confirmation. :rolleyes:


Good to know Lutheran children take their religious education every bit as seriously as Jewish children do...

[wordsmith]

I think farting's funny to 12 year-olds everywhere, regardless of creed.

[spokes]

for the last few "holiday seasons" i have wondered if this generalization of a christian holiday was a noth american phenomenon, or if in countries where there is predominately non-christian population base if they are also "generalizing" thier religious holidays (i.e. in muslim countries are they now calling ramadan the "season of not eating during daylight hours").

p.s. i am not specificially picking on the muslim faith, i was merely using it an an example.

[jrwilheim]

for the last few "holiday seasons" i have wondered if this generalization of a christian holiday was a noth american phenomenon, or if in countries where there is predominately non-christian population base if they are also "generalizing" thier religious holidays (i.e. in muslim countries are they now calling ramadan the "season of not eating during daylight hours").

p.s. i am not specificially picking on the muslim faith, i was merely using it an an example.

It's probably not as much of an issue in the Muslim world because most predominantly Muslim countries don't really have significant non-Muslim minorities living within them, or aren't secular democracies, are just generally don't care about sensitivity to non-Muslims living within their midst.

[tdko]

Aside from saintly farting, I find the "elimination of Christmas" idea to be particularly ironic. I'm just restating opinions on the thread that I agree with, but the removal of "Christmas" from concerts, sales, or marketing collateral merely is about making the most money. Christmas is a religious holiday, and until the churches feel compelled to call it "our wintertime celebration of that guy we call the Lord," I don't think it's under attack.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with the world attempting to be more inclusive and religiously neutral. Regardless of how accepted it is, or how many Christians there are in America, it's wrong for Christmas to be a national holiday and it's wrong for city, state, and national gov'ts to take Christian symbols and endorse them. Religion is a private matter, and if the President wants a Christmas tree in the white house for his personal observance, by all means he should have one. But having a gov't-sponsored religious observance (like the Christmas tree lighting in front of the capitol building in Sacramento) is an endorsement of religion that is inappropriate.

[tdko]

It's probably not as much of an issue in the Muslim world because most predominantly Muslim countries don't really have significant non-Muslim minorities living within them, or aren't secular democracies, are just generally don't care about sensitivity to non-Muslims living within their midst.
Iran has a Jewish minority that is oppressed in their religious observance. And Christianity is often a notable minority in Muslim nations. But I think it is still a bigoted response to generalize all Muslim nations as intolerant any more than it is to call them "barbaric" or "backwards." Some of them are, but not just because they are Islamic.

[pisces2473]

And I don't think there's anything wrong with the world attempting to be more inclusive and religiously neutral. Regardless of how accepted it is, or how many Christians there are in America, it's wrong for Christmas to be a national holiday and it's wrong for city, state, and national gov'ts to take Christian symbols and endorse them. Religion is a private matter, and if the President wants a Christmas tree in the white house for his personal observance, by all means he should have one. But having a gov't-sponsored religious observance (like the Christmas tree lighting in front of the capitol building in Sacramento) is an endorsement of religion that is inappropriate.
I agree with you--but should the government be open on Christmas? That's the only thing I don't get...I don't think it should be a "national" holiday, but what else is there?

And I agree, there should be a menorah and Kwanzaa candelabra for every Christmas tree on city/state/federal property.

[spokes]

It's probably not as much of an issue in the Muslim world because most predominantly Muslim countries don't really have significant non-Muslim minorities living within them, or aren't secular democracies, are just generally don't care about sensitivity to non-Muslims living within their midst.

so is it safe to say that countries that are predominately christian, are the places where you would expect to find the most flexibility with respect to showing some sensitivity and doing something similar to "rebranding" a holiday?

[pisces2473]

so is it safe to say that countries that are predominately christian, are the places where you would expect to find the most flexibility with respect to showing some sensitivity and doing something similar to "rebranding" a holiday?
I think it all depends on how large the minority religion is. The US is largely Christian, but the amount of Jews in this country is NOT a small minority, by any means. Muslims are a growing minority as well. It also depends on what part of the country you live in, as well. The schools in my town gets Jewish holidays off because there's a large number of Jews enrolled in public schools. The town next to me? They don't get them off because they are a predominantly Italian Catholic community. I would assume that down South, there are very few public menorahs, while up here in the greater NYC area, there is almost a 1:1 tree to menorah ratio.

[jrwilheim]

so is it safe to say that countries that are predominately christian, are the places where you would expect to find the most flexibility with respect to showing some sensitivity and doing something similar to "rebranding" a holiday?

No...I think that would tend to happen most in countries that are not overwhelmingly any particular creed. I think it any country that's 95%+ any one religious tradition, society as a whole is less likely to care about sensitivity toward minority groups unless that country is highly secularized liked Spain or France.

I do, however, think it depends on the religious tradition in question. Christmas has developed a sort of secular version of itself (Santa and presents under the tree and eggnog and candy canes) that is sort of divorced from a religious understanding of Christmas. Other religious traditions may not lend themselves to this kind of thing quite so easily. For instance, I would wind it hard to imagine Passover or Hannukah or Shavuot being rebranded as not Jewish-specific holidays. The same may be true of Muslim holidays, though I have no way of knowing this.

And I never meant to imply that all Muslim countries are monolithic or backwards or intolerant, only that most of them don't really have the kinds of concerns over political correctness that we have in the United States.

[wordsmith]

it's wrong for Christmas to be a national holiday and it's wrong for national gov'ts to take Christian symbols and endorse them.

At what point does a government observance become a government endorsement? Govt. sponsoring a religious observance isn't the same as forcing nonbelievers to participate.

Aside from saintly farting...

Strictly speaking, Martin Luther isn't a saint, just a religious reformer. Lutherans don't have saints. That's a Catholic thing, and one of the points of the Protestant Reformation. :p

[pisces2473]

I do, however, think it depends on the religious tradition in question. Christmas has developed a sort of secular version of itself (Santa and presents under the tree and eggnog and candy canes) that is sort of divorced from a religious understanding of Christmas. Other religious traditions may not lend themselves to this kind of thing quite so easily. For instance, I would wind it hard to imagine Passover or Hannukah or Shavuot being rebranded as not Jewish-specific holidays. The same may be true of Muslim holidays, though I have no way of knowing this.
Totally agree. I have never heard of Jew hoping to get chocolate covered gefilte fish in their Passover basket ;)

I also think that a lot of people who are atheist/agnostic fall in to the secular idea of Christmas because it's something that they have celebrated culturally, especially if they were brought up in a Christian household. Similarly, non-practicing Jews will celebrate the holidays because it's a cultural thing for them, not a religious thing.

[jrwilheim]

At what point does a government observance become a government endorsement? Govt. sponsoring a religious observance isn't the same as forcing nonbelievers to participate.

I don't think the U.S. government "sponsors" or "endorses" Christmas just because courthouses, post offices, etc., are closed on Christmas. When a holiday becomes official, all that means is that government offices are closed on that day and doesn't imply anything about the reasons the offices are closed. Presumably, the offices close because a large majority of federal workers want that day off and it would be difficult, if not impossible, for these offices to function on those days.

"Sponsorship" to me would be a different concept, like putting up crosses in schools or courtyards with the idea of promoting or actively spreading that religion. The First Amendment means that the government isn't supposed to favor any form of religious belief or disbelief over any other. Something like putting up a Christmas tree is gray area because some people see the tree as a religious symbol and others see it as just a cultural phenomenon. There's no end of court cases on these issues.

[jrwilheim]

Totally agree. I have never heard of Jew hoping to get chocolate covered gefilte fish in their Passover basket ;)

I also think that a lot of people who are atheist/agnostic fall in to the secular idea of Christmas because it's something that they have celebrated culturally, especially if they were brought up in a Christian household. Similarly, non-practicing Jews will celebrate the holidays because it's a cultural thing for them, not a religious thing.

Yeah...I think the difference is that you can have a non-religious celebration of Christmas, with Santa and eggnog and all that, without mentioning God, whereas a non-religious celebration of any Jewish religious holiday just wouldn't make sense without it. I know some secular Jews have "non-theistic" versions of Passover, and certainly you can celebrate Hannukah by just giving gifts and lighting candles and not thinking too hard about what you're doing, but I think even secular Jews who celebrate these holidays see some sort of "theistic" element in them. Certainly in Israel there are a lot of Jews whose idea of observing the Jewish holidays is taking off and going to the beach or whatever, but that doesn't really develop in a predominantly non-Jewish society.

None of the customs of these holidays really make sufficient sense without the religious component that they can be turned into something like secular Christmas, is what I'm saying.

[wordsmith]

Christmas has developed a sort of secular version of itself (Santa and presents under the tree and eggnog and candy canes) that is sort of divorced from a religious understanding of Christmas.


Truly, though, prior to becoming marketed within an inch of its life and overtly commercialized, gift-giving was initially tied in with the religious observance of Christmas (symbolic of the Magi bearing gifts for the newborn Christ).

[jrwilheim]

Truly, though, prior to becoming marketed within an inch of its life and overtly commercialized, gift-giving was initially tied in with the religious observance of Christmas (symbolic of the Magi bearing gifts for the newborn Christ).

Yeah. Even as a non-Christian I object to the secularization and commercialization of Christmas, because I think it shows a lack of respect for religion in general. This, aside from religious considerations, is why I think it's wrong for Jews to celebrate Christmas in the home (giving Christmas gifts to Christian friends and having the odd Santa cookie at the office holiday party doesn't count as "celebrating Christmas" in my book).

[pisces2473]

Yeah. Even as a non-Christian I object to the secularization and commercialization of Christmas, because I think it shows a lack of respect for religion in general. This, aside from religious considerations, is why I think it's wrong for Jews to celebrate Christmas in the home (giving Christmas gifts to Christian friends and having the odd Santa cookie at the office holiday party doesn't count as "celebrating Christmas" in my book).
Thanks, that's really cool of you to think about things like that.

Tangent--For what it's worth, as a non-Jew, I don't like how "overdone" bar/bat mitzvahs are celebrated.

[lilyflower]

I tend to use the term "Christmas" a lot because I was raised Catholic, but in reality, I'm agnostic and really don't have any religious significance in this time of year. So yeah, holiday season is fine with me :)

[tdko]

And I agree, there should be a menorah and Kwanzaa candelabra for every Christmas tree on city/state/federal property.
This idea is worse than just the Christmas tree! :( I don't want my religion sucked into the political holiday pandering. I don't want any religion endorsed or funded by the gov't.

At what point does a government observance become a government endorsement? Govt. sponsoring a religious observance isn't the same as forcing nonbelievers to participate.
When it's a gov't function. There is a difference between lighting a Christmas tree and burning heretics in the public square, absolutely. But no gov't paid-for event which commemorates a religious holiday should be considered "merely" an observance--it's paid for by an institution which is supposed to be (IMO) separated from churches. I think private observance by gov't officials is fine, it's just when it becomes an official state celebration/tree lighting/candle lighting that it's an issue. And not because it's in the public square, but because the gov't is paying for it.

Strictly speaking, Martin Luther isn't a saint, just a religious reformer. Lutherans don't have saints. That's a Catholic thing, and one of the points of the Protestant Reformation.
Excuse me, I meant "angelic farting." :p

When a holiday becomes official, all that means is that government offices are closed on that day and doesn't imply anything about the reasons the offices are closed. Presumably, the offices close because a large majority of federal workers want that day off and it would be difficult, if not impossible, for these offices to function on those days.
I think this is a naive opinion. If it wasn't part of our culture, people wouldn't expect it. Whether or not it's a day the USPS wants to close, that doesn't mean it needs to be a federal holiday.

Yeah...I think the difference is that you can have a non-religious celebration of Christmas, with Santa and eggnog and all that, without mentioning God, whereas a non-religious celebration of any Jewish religious holiday just wouldn't make sense without it.
You can have a non-religious celebration of Hanukkah. Just light the menorah and give presents. Isn't that what the majority of American Jews do now? Do you think they all ponder the miracle of the oil lamp? Most of the Jews I know don't read the story of the Macabees in their homes, and some don't even say the blessings over the candles. They just light them and leave them.

You're making arbitrary distinctions based on your experience. Just because you haven't tried to take the God out of Jewish holidays, doesn't mean that many Americans don't do just that. Christmas, no matter how you cut it, is a religious holiday! Even if the observance is secular, the holiday is not. It doesn't matter if one person focuses on Santa Claus, or just the presents or the tree or the mistletoe, it's still a Christian celebration that's been heavily marketed. That doesn't make it secular. When you sing "Hark the Herald Angels Sing," it's not just a secular song. Even if you don't believe in Jesus, it's still a song from the Christian canon.

None of the customs of these holidays really make sufficient sense without the religious component that they can be turned into something like secular Christmas, is what I'm saying.
How does Christmas make sense without the aspect of Jesus' birth? How do you explain most Christmas carols? Not that Santa makes any sense at all, but even St. Nick is a saint.

For what it's worth, as a non-Jew, I don't like how "overdone" bar/bat mitzvahs are celebrated.
As a Jew, I don't like it either. I've heard, in big cities, it's become popular for non-Jews to have what is offensively named a "faux mitzvah." It's essentially a big party for a 13 year old in order to compete with the big affairs that some Jews are doing for their kids. The whole thing sends the wrong message to kids--both Jewish and otherwise--about bar/bat mitzvahs, values, and Judaism in general. :mad: It makes me nauseous.

[wordsmith]

When it's a gov't function. There is a difference between lighting a Christmas tree and burning heretics in the public square, absolutely. But no gov't paid-for event which commemorates a religious holiday should be considered "merely" an observance--it's paid for by an institution which is supposed to be (IMO) separated from churches. I think private observance by gov't officials is fine, it's just when it becomes an official state celebration/tree lighting/candle lighting that it's an issue. And not because it's in the public square, but because the gov't is paying for it.

The distinction of gov't funded religious observation makes sense.

How would you feel about a gov't. sanctioned religious observation that wasn't done at taxpayer dollar?

[WeirdBrake]

How would you feel about a gov't. sanctioned religious observation that wasn't done at taxpayer dollar?

I'd still be against it. I agree completely with what tdko said here: "I don't want any religion endorsed or funded by the gov't." A religious observation can still be endorsed by the gov't without being funded by it, and the gov't should not be endorsing any religion.

[lilyflower]

I'd still be against it. I agree completely with what tdko said here: "I don't want any religion endorsed or funded by the gov't." A religious observation can still be endorsed by the gov't without being funded by it, and the gov't should not be endorsing any religion.

Agreed, there's a reason why it's called SEPARATION of church and state.

[and1grad]

Agreed, there's a reason why it's called SEPARATION of church and state.
Ya but the separation of church and state has ALWAYS been just lip service. Honestly, I think the gov't recognizing the holiday may be the only thing that keeps it alive anyway.

[wordsmith]

Again, though, outside of funding it, which tdko addresed, at what point is an observance an endorsement?

[lilyflower]

Ya but the separation of church and state has ALWAYS been just lip service. Honestly, I think the gov't recognizing the holiday may be the only thing that keeps it alive anyway.

True, I'd rather celebrate Festivus if it were up to me though...

[WeirdBrake]

Again, though, outside of funding it, which tdko addresed, at what point is an observance an endorsement?

If the gov't has any role in showing a clear favoritism toward a particular religion or religious worldview (like the belief in God), then that's an endorsement in my opinion.

[lilyflower]

If the gov't has any role in showing a clear favoritism toward a particular religion or religious worldview (like the belief in God), then that's an endorsement in my opinion.

Good, when I become President it's gonna ALLLLL be about one-finitarianism.

[pisces2473]

This idea is worse than just the Christmas tree! :( I don't want my religion sucked into the political holiday pandering. I don't want any religion endorsed or funded by the gov't.
I was trying!!! lol

As a Jew, I don't like it either. I've heard, in big cities, it's become popular for non-Jews to have what is offensively named a "faux mitzvah." It's essentially a big party for a 13 year old in order to compete with the big affairs that some Jews are doing for their kids. The whole thing sends the wrong message to kids--both Jewish and otherwise--about bar/bat mitzvahs, values, and Judaism in general. :mad: It makes me nauseous.
OMG, that's disgusting. The best bar mitzvah story I heard was from a professor in college (who is a Protestant). His neighbors were Jewish, and were looking to celebrate their son's coming of age in a different way, something less commercial. My prof and his family had built this huge fire pit type thing in their backyard and the young man wanted to incorporate that into his celebration. I forgot what exactly they did, but they built some kind of teepee structure over the fire pit and he sat in there as a purification thing or something...and everyone came and celebrated the young man and they had a cookout and other party-like things...of course, all of this was after the ceremony at the temple. It was very touching because it was planned by the "kid" himself and he did what he wanted to.

[tdko]

Again, though, outside of funding it, which tdko addresed, at what point is an observance an endorsement?
At first, I thought that money was the only way. But I suppose I must be against any prayer at the opening session of Congress or by swearing in witnesses on a bible in court. These are all endorsements of religion.

[Cole]

all I have to say is "Merry Holidays."

Heh. That just doesn't work at all

we wish you a merry holiday
we wish you a merry holiday
we wish you a merry holiday
and a happy new year.

I'm fine with the use of "holiday" but I don't think "christmas" needs to be eliminated, either. Let tradition be tradition.

[ledzeppelinfan1]

...and let this stupid thread die...in Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

[pisces2473]

At first, I thought that money was the only way. But I suppose I must be against any prayer at the opening session of Congress or by swearing in witnesses on a bible in court. These are all endorsements of religion.
Okay, I'm gonna pull a CK now...our country was founded by men with a Judeo-Christian background. I know, Jefferson, et al, were deists, but they were schooled in the ideas of God protecting the country, city on a hill, etc. I'm not saying it's right or that it clearly mirrors the US of today, but that's what shaped our country and we are still a very young country, compared to others. I think we are changing our religious identity as a nation, but it's not going to happen overnight. That's why so much of our government has pieces of Christianity in it--just because that was what was "in" (so to speak) at the time.

This is an overly simplistic view, but hopefully someone will understand what I'm saying.

[WeirdBrake]

Ledzepp... if you don't find a thread worth your time, can you please just not respond to it rather than calling it stupid? Thanks.

[wordsmith]

It's still minted on our money.

[pisces2473]

It's still minted on our money.
True, but in fairness, it doesn't say WHICH God...although most people know who the designers of the money had in mind.

[lilyflower]

True, but in fairness, it doesn't say WHICH God...although most people know who the designers of the money had in mind.

Right for the sake of argument it could be one of Eddie Izzard's gods like Simon the god of hairdos.

[WeirdBrake]

True, but in fairness, it doesn't say WHICH God...although most people know who the designers of the money had in mind.

But God is still a specifically religious belief. Imagine if the money read "In the gods we trust," referring to all polytheistic faiths. Or better yet "In no God we trust," affirming atheism.

[lilyflower]

But God is still a specifically religious belief. Imagine if the money read "In the gods we trust," referring to all polytheistic faiths. Or better yet "In no God we trust," affirming atheism.

Or "In God we trust... maybe" affirming agnostism. :D

[pisces2473]

Right for the sake of argument it could be one of Eddie Izzard's gods like Simon the god of hairdos.
Exactly! :D

[lilyflower]

Exactly! :D

Hey, I'm much more likely to worship Simon the god of hairdos over the big sky boss Judeo-Christian God any day.

[yankeeyosh]

This debate is similar to that of "men" vs. "people"...in the past, until about 30 years ago, whenever someone referred to a group of people, or a person, they were referred to as "men", or a "man" (and unforunately, usually inferring white men). Now, it's people. Policemen are now police officers, firemen are fire fighters, etc. Since women play more of a role these days, it makes more sense.

As a Jew, I really don't have a problem with the Christmas music playing on the radio (often times, I like listening to it, as long as it doesn't get too religious). But I do think that it is a good idea to use "holiday" rather than "Christmas" on commercials...even though this country is mostly Christian, there is a sizeable minority that is not...and even many Christians celebrate other holidays (like Kwanzaa). Even in Tallahassee, FL, which is in the deep south where outside of town there's probably not a synagogue for 100 miles...they use "holidays" rather than "Christmas".

[and1grad]

You could probably make the argument that actions in Iraq are also heavily rooted in religion...I wonder if they'll rename Iraq into something like San Pakistan. :evil: .... Los Oiljealous .... Sand Geeyighjoe ...

[HereComes30]

Just saw this related article so I thought I would share it...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20051202/bs_usatoday/someretailersgivethewordchristmasanod

[inuts]

Just saw this related article so I thought I would share it...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20051202/bs_usatoday/someretailersgivethewordchristmasanod

Actually, I would notice something like that, and I think a lot of other people do, too. Apparently some retailers are catching on.

[Angyl]

I just wanted to reiterate that most of Christmas, culturally, is Pagan in it's root. Y'all are celebrating MY holiday, biotches!

Wasn't Christ actually born in, like, October?

And I prefer the word holiday. It's a bitch to find cards to send out this time of year, but I refuse to buy anything with the word Christmas, seeing as I celebrate Yule. It just seems silly.

[shimmer728]

I just wanted to reiterate that most of Christmas, culturally, is Pagan in it's root. Y'all are celebrating MY holiday, biotches!

Wasn't Christ actually born in, like, October?

And I prefer the word holiday. It's a bitch to find cards to send out this time of year, but I refuse to buy anything with the word Christmas, seeing as I celebrate Yule. It just seems silly.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is Yule? Why do you celebrate it?

[WeirdBrake]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is Yule? Why do you celebrate it?

Yuletide is Christmas, it snows on Christmas, snow is slang for cocaine, you can be addicted to cocaine, you can be addicted to love, which was on the Robert Palmer album called "Riptide," which has the same last four letters as Yuletide.

Life's a garden. Dig it?

I'm in a funny mood.

[shimmer728]

Haha! I wanted a real answer. I guess I will Google.

[shimmer728]

OK, it's a Pagan celebration. Got it.

[WeirdBrake]

Oh, yeah? Well, I wanted a real girlfriend!

SLAM!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

That one was a beauty. Admit it! Eat your heart out, and1! I is the master.

[shimmer728]

I imagine you got sick of inflating the other one every night. :twisted:

[Angyl]

The explanation from the Witches Voice:

Yule is the time of greatest darkness and the longest night of the year. The Winter Solstice had been associated with the birth of a "Divine King" long before the rise of Christianity. Since the Sun is considered to represent the Male Divinity in many Pagan Traditions, this time is celebrated as the "return of the Sun God" where He is reborn of the Goddess

It's the same damn thing as Christmas. Well, sorta.

[shimmer728]

But why do you celebrate it in place of Christmas? Does your family?

[WeirdBrake]

I imagine you got sick of inflating the other one every night. :twisted:

Inflate these rocks, BEEEEEYATCH! :twisted:

[Angyl]

But why do you celebrate it in place of Christmas? Does your family?


I grew up Catholic, but have been pagan for four or five yeras now. It fits more with my hippy vibe. Yule really is Christmas, seriously. From what I understand, the Christians were tired of the pagans having a big party in the middle of the winter so they decided to have a winter celebration as well, of Christ's birth.

Here's a short, somewhat decent explanation of the two holidays.
http://twopagans.com/holiday/Yule.html

[shimmer728]

Cool! Thanks for the explanation.

[labrat2111]

Okay, I'm gonna pull a CK now...our country was founded by men with a Judeo-Christian background. I know, Jefferson, et al, were deists, but they were schooled in the ideas of God protecting the country, city on a hill, etc. I'm not saying it's right or that it clearly mirrors the US of today, but that's what shaped our country and we are still a very young country, compared to others. I think we are changing our religious identity as a nation, but it's not going to happen overnight. That's why so much of our government has pieces of Christianity in it--just because that was what was "in" (so to speak) at the time.

This is an overly simplistic view, but hopefully someone will understand what I'm saying.

I tend to agree with this. Of course seperation of church and state is a very sticky issue with a lot of gray area but regardless some folks are religious and so it is going to come up somewhere even if that is viewed as an endorsement. Like is mentioned above our founding fathers brought up religion as members of government and that was not considered a big thing. Remember a lot of people came to the US from england during colonial times because if you weren't a member of the state religion -- the Anglican church -- you couldn't be in government and were persecuted. I think there is certainly a big difference between a country being a largely christian country and a country where one is persecuted for not being a christian.

Also our country is largely a christian country too so our traditions around the holidays tend to influence that and I don't think it is horribly offensive to have a public christmas tree. I think it is retarded to call it a holiday tree -- like would Jews find it odd if I called the a menorah a candle holder as if it had no special significance? I imagine in Isreal they have public displays during Jewish holidays or Islamic countries have similar things during islamic holidays (although some of those countries I realize are theocracies).

[bridgetjones]

I once went to a Muslim Christmas/ Birthday Party. It turns out that many secular or less religious Muslims rather openly enjoy all the festive Christmas traditions, decorations and fun activities. Then again Jesus is also considered a prophet to them.

I also know many Indians who are not Christian who throw Christmas parties. They enjoy the festiveness and the excuse to have a celebration.

Hey Christmas with all its pagan pagentry and festiveness is fun! I am not terribly religious and I like the food, get togethers, music (in moderation), etc.

[meatwad]

I once went to a Muslim Christmas/ Birthday Party. It turns out that many secular or less religious Muslims rather openly enjoy all the festive Christmas traditions, decorations and fun activities. Then again Jesus is also considered a prophet to them.

I also know many Indians who are not Christian who throw Christmas parties. They enjoy the festiveness and the excuse to have a celebration.

Hey Christmas with all its pagan pagentry and festiveness is fun! I am not terribly religious and I like the food, get togethers, music (in moderation), etc.

I'm not religious at all and I LOVE Christmas!

[Winter Storm]

I'm not religious at all and I LOVE Christmas!

Me too, Meat. In fact, I come from a family that is wholly non-religious and it has always been my favorite holiday. The origins don't matter to me, just the festivities and the coming together of family and friends.

[inuts]

I am not even a Christian and I love X'mas! Heck I dont even celebrate X'mas and I still love it. Beat that y'all. :D

I can't beat that. I come from a very "fuck PC, it's Christmas" background. And damn, how can you not love presents under a tree? I mean really, presents! How can you not get excited about that? But I am a Christian. And I celebrate Christmas like a good Christian doobie.

[biodork]

I'm not religious at all and I LOVE Christmas!
same here. for my bf and its like the one time of year we can let ourselves splurge a little on things and not feel like every bit of money must go to bills.

And I like snow :)

[meatwad]

I am not even a Christian and I love X'mas! Heck I dont even celebrate X'mas and I still love it. Beat that y'all. :D

I'm not even Hindu and I love Ganesh Chaturathi!

[Dreamchasa]

PC has gone too far but this is not an issue I find that important in pertaining to PC but it does show how PICKY PC has become.

Holiday Christmas whatever. Just another reason for me to get some money and give away some money. Its so commercialized you'd think Jesus was a stock pick.

[inuts]

I am sorry that cracked me up!!!!! :D :D You don't even know what happens on Ganesh chaturthi! Actually even I dont know cuz I am not Hindu either haha!


inuts- Dont get me wrong, I do get presents but I am not obliged to give any cuz I dont celebrate X'mas. HAHA!

Well shit. How'd you get yourself that arrangement??? That sounds like a pretty sweet deal... :D

[The Stranger]

Apparently, the Secret PC Conspiracy Against Christmas has been going on since the '20s:

"And it has become pretty general. Last Christmas most people had a hard time finding Christmas cards that indicated in any way that Christmas commemorated Someone's Birth. Easter they will have the same difficulty in finding Easter cards that contain any suggestion that Easter commemorates a certain event. There will be rabbits and eggs and spring flowers, but a hint of the Resurrection will be hard to find. Now, all this begins with the designers of the cards."

--Henry Ford, in "The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem"

And let's not forget William Donahue, from the Catholic League:

"Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. It's not a secret, OK? [...] Hollywood likes anal sex. They like to see the public square without nativity scenes."

Other notable defenders of Christmas include David Duke, Bill O'Reilly, Jerry Falwell...

I can't believe that they're trying to be respectful of other people's cultures! Next thing you know, they'll be giving women the vote.

(This, obviously, is sarcasm, so please don't delete me. Don't pay attention to our mounting deficit, the casualty rate in Iraq, or the incompetence revealed by Katrina--somewhere, someone's calling it a "holiday tree!")

[inuts]

No I am kidding. I'll give give gifts to people who matter (and who celebrate X'mas like my ex). But I am not obliged to give to anyone (atleast I hope not that could explain my diminishing social circle j/k).

Well double shit then!!! I really thought you had a way to get gifts without having to give any.

Nothing like that "true spirit of Christmas." Oh well.

That said, I actually would really like to get into the Christmas spirit this year by actually going to a church service this year. We will see...

[cheshrcarol]

Is anyone else watching SNL right now? They're singing a "relgiously neutral" version of Silent Night and it's totally cracking me up :razz: .

[cheshrcarol]

These were priceless, considering this conversation:

Silent Night -
All is calm, all is bright.
Round the fire mother and child.
Random infant religiously neutral.
Sleep in comfortabl beds,
sleep in comfortable beds.


Oh Holy Night -
Oh Tuesday night, the starts are brightly shining.
It is the night to watch tv and play cards.
Fall on your knees, and do a jigsaw puzzle.
Just stay inside
tonight, it's half past night
just stay inside
feelin fine.

[lilyflower]

LOL! Hee, that's very amusing.