"The New White Flight"

[K-man]

Last month, Wall Street Journal printed a front-page article about the HS I attended. It was titled "The New White Flight", and it described white students leaving the nation's top public high schools in my neighborhood because it was "too Asian".

The copy of the article can be found here (http://modelminority.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1061). My friends and I had a lot of conversation about this, but I'm curious to hear thoughts from you guys who didn't glow up in my area.

I personally find a lot of things in this article to be ridiculous, but the one that stands out the most is this parent who's daughter committed a suicide after moving away to college. According to her the "life in Cupertino and at Monta Vista didn't prepare the young woman for life at New York University." As much as I sympathize with the parent for her loss, I don't think you can blame high schools for being socially unprepared.

[and1grad]

So rather than send your kids to a school that will challenge them to develop to the best of their abilities, they pull their kids out b/c the challenge is being presented by Asians rather than other White kids. Amazing.

[tdko]

If you read some of the comments below the article, one shows that the President of the PTA was so upset about how they misquoted her that she wrote a letter to the WSJ. It would seem that the article is misrepresenting things a lot.

[yankeeyosh]

So rather than send your kids to a school that will challenge them to develop to the best of their abilities, they pull their kids out b/c the challenge is being presented by Asians rather than other White kids. Amazing.

That's coddling for ya...oh so afraid that the Asian kids will be so much better than them and oh so afraid that their kids will miss out on Harvard because their rank isn't high enough...

Hey, I went to a high school that was 45% Asian...and it is a school that is highly touted as one of the best in the country (if you ever saw "Head of the Class", you'd know what school it is). I don't think anyone switched out of the school because it was "too Asian".

[wordsmith]

Given that my high school graduating class had two Asian kids (a 1/2 Vietnamese girl whose father was a white Marine and whose mother was a war bride, and a 1/2 Chinese girl whose father was white and whose mother was Cantonese by way of Canada), I can't really speak to the stereotype of intensely academically demanding parents.

I do know that without even assigning affinity for various subjects to particular ethnic groups, if I went to a high school that emphasized math/science/tech over humanities, I would personally spend most of my time wishing I was someplace else. But I'm not sure that I buy that it's strictly an Asian thing to weight curriculum more heavily this way. I worked with lots of magnet schools in Chicago that were truly multicultural and did the same sort of thing.

Many white parents say they're leaving because the schools are too academically driven and too narrowly invested in subjects such as math and science at the expense of liberal arts and extracurriculars like sports and other personal interests.

I would be one who would find this a narrow investment. And not because I'm white, but because my talents lie in the liberal arts and not math and science. And I'm sure there are Asian students just like me. I do, however think that it's pretty telling that they phrase it as they do above...the subtext, as I read it, is, "Parents think schools are too academic...they think they shortchange the easy things like liberal arts."

[wordsmith]

So rather than send your kids to a school that will challenge them to develop to the best of their abilities, they pull their kids out b/c the challenge is being presented by Asians rather than other White kids. Amazing.

I don't know. As I said, regardless of race issues, I wouldn't have wanted to want to attend, nor would I want my children to attend, a school that's weighted heavily to one end of curriculum. It's only "challenging" if it's a math and science-heavy school? Do we really want to go there?

[Skyblade]

Hey, K-man, what high school did you go to? My HS is mentioned in the article too, I went to Lynbrook.

I had already seen this article and definitely felt the effects of Lynbrook being such an "academic" school. I had friend's parents who would ask me what my SAT scores were, constantly comparing me to their children. I left high school thinking I wasn't very smart, but college seemed like a breeze compared to high school (I went to UCSB).

[SmilesSoSweet]

Okay, I didn't read the entire article but from what you described, that's just stupid. I attended a really good high school for academics and sports. The ethnic ratio breakdown back in my last year of high school in 1996 were approximately: 32% Asian, 26% Black, 11% Filipino (we were not included with the Asian category), 12% Latino, 18% White, 1% Other.

My high school is known for its diversity. It was even voted the best public high school in the nation for sports according to Sports Illustrated. And we had a bunch of smart, academic students of all races graduate and attend colleges and universities throughout the US. I really don't think it matters on ethnicity matters. Our school also focused on all parts of academia - math, science, liberal studies, etc.

Oh and those ignorant white parents that think that all Asians only want to study math and science and not worry about extracurricular activities, maybe they need to go back to school themselves. I still can't believe that parents today think this way. Those parents are sheltering their children from the growing ethnicities in California. Heck 51% of the population in California in Latino, not White! Get over it. It's not like the Asian kids they are describing in this articles are bad influences to the white kids.

[yankeeyosh]

Given that my high school graduating class had two Asian kids (a 1/2 Vietnamese girl whose father was a white Marine and whose mother was a war bride, and a 1/2 Chinese girl whose father was white and whose mother was Cantonese by way of Canada), I can't really speak to the stereotype of intensely academically demanding parents.

I do know that without even assigning affinity for various subjects to particular ethnic groups, if I went to a high school that emphasized math/science/tech over humanities, I would personally spend most of my time wishing I was someplace else. But I'm not sure that I buy that it's strictly an Asian thing to weight curriculum more heavily this way. I worked with lots of magnet schools in Chicago that were truly multicultural and did the same sort of thing.



I would be one who would find this a narrow investment. And not because I'm white, but because my talents lie in the liberal arts and not math and science. And I'm sure there are Asian students just like me. I do, however think that it's pretty telling that they phrase it as they do above...the subtext, as I read it, is, "Parents think schools are too academic...they think they shortchange the easy things like liberal arts."

I don't think it's that...I just think parents are too "afraid" that their kids will not become valedictorian because of the stereotype that all Asians are smart...they want everything possible so their kid is number one, and they want to limit the "competition", as they think the Asian kids are.

[SmilesSoSweet]

I left high school thinking I wasn't very smart, but college seemed like a breeze compared to high school (I went to UCSB).

Same here. College seemed easier because there wasn't any pressure from the other kids in the academic program I was in. It was competive but the students in the program were also in sports, drama, student council, cheer, etc. - not just academics.

[yankeeyosh]

Hey, K-man, what high school did you go to? My HS is mentioned in the article too, I went to Lynbrook.

I had already seen this article and definitely felt the effects of Lynbrook being such an "academic" school. I had friend's parents who would ask me what my SAT scores were, constantly comparing me to their children. I left high school thinking I wasn't very smart, but college seemed like a breeze compared to high school (I went to UCSB).

Yeah, don't you love that? Parents who gloat over "Oh, my son is going to Yale yadda yadda yadda he got this SAT, why couldn't you get that?" right in your face...that is such immaturity on their part...

[SmilesSoSweet]

I don't think it's that...I just think parents are too "afraid" that their kids will not become valedictorian because of the stereotype that all Asians are smart...they want everything possible so their kid is number one, and they want to limit the "competition", as they think the Asian kids are.

Some parents even go out of their way to fake divorces (I do know of someone who has done this) and move to other school districts just so their kids can attend a good school for whatever sport they play to get more playing time so that college recruiters can consider them. Seriously, that's just wrong.

[Skyblade]

Yeah, don't you love that? Parents who gloat over "Oh, my son is going to Yale yadda yadda yadda he got this SAT, why couldn't you get that?" right in your face...that is such immaturity on their part...

Yeah, one of my hs friend's freaked out cuz she got 1510 and thought she wouldn't get into Stanford. Her parents were high pressure too saying they would only pay for college if she decided to become a doctor (she is now at Yale Medical School, but I STILL don't know if that is what SHE truly wanted).

I had another hs friend whose mother would pay her for every pound she lost.

I had another hs friend whose father strangled her w/ a piano cord if she didn't get good enough grades.

Meanwhile, I actually resented my mom a little bit for not pressuring me enough, but I guess I was lucky. It seemed normal in hs for parents to put unreasonable amounts of pressure on their kids.

[and1grad]

I don't think it's that...I just think parents are too "afraid" that their kids will not become valedictorian because of the stereotype that all Asians are smart...they want everything possible so their kid is number one, and they want to limit the "competition", as they think the Asian kids are.
Totally agree. I didnt read it in terms of arts being easier at all.

Words, I think you're being a lil over-defensive about your area of interest.

tdko, I did read the comments underneath after I posted. I'm actually not concerned with the school official's comments b/c I think if I also were a school official, I would also want diversity.

Does this mean white folks are gonna head back to the hood? :evil:

[yankeeyosh]

Yeah, one of my hs friend's freaked out cuz she got 1510 and thought she wouldn't get into Stanford. Her parents were high pressure too saying they would only pay for college if she decided to become a doctor (she is now at Yale Medical School, but I STILL don't know if that is what SHE truly wanted). Sadly, 1510 won't guarantee you Stanford these days...not even double 800s. Those days ended with the recentering of the SAT for the class of 96. And that is totally wrong that parents are forcing their kids to do what the PARENTS want them to do.


I had another hs friend whose mother would pay her for every pound she lost.

Depending on the circumstances, that's not too unreasonable...


I had another hs friend whose father strangled her w/ a piano cord if she didn't get good enough grades.
OK, that's child abuse, and that father should be put in jail.


Meanwhile, I actually resented my mom a little bit for not pressuring me enough, but I guess I was lucky. It seemed normal in hs for parents to put unreasonable amounts of pressure on their kids.

You were lucky, skyblade...there are too many wacko parents out there who see their kids as a reflection of themselves, and if the kid stumbles, the parent goes crazy.

AND WE HAVE QLC'S????? Man...these kids are probably going to triple therapy sessions now...or soon will be.

[K-man]

Hey, K-man, what high school did you go to? My HS is mentioned in the article too, I went to Lynbrook.
I went to Monta Vista, the other Asian-centric school :p

I left high school thinking I wasn't very smart, but college seemed like a breeze compared to high school (I went to UCSB).
I hear you. I felt like I was a dumbass until I went to UCSC -- all the sudden I was getting 4.0 when I was a 3.0 student in HS (which would place me in a bottom third now, apparently). I guess that's what you get when you graduate from top 1% of the HS in the nation (I think every school in our district is in that group).

[Skyblade]

I went to Monta Vista, the other Asian-centric school :p



Oh cool, thats where I would have gone had I not moved. I went to Regnart Elementary School.

Another thing I remember is when everyone was applying for colleges, I swear everyone went to Kinkos and printed a billion copies of their UC college entrance essay and had every single teacher/friend/peer look it over/edit it. I only had 2 people read my essay.

[wordsmith]

Words, I think you're being a lil over-defensive about your area of interest.


You'd better believe it. It comes from things like, "parents think the schools are too challenging, because they're math and science heavy."

[K-man]

I would be one who would find this a narrow investment. And not because I'm white, but because my talents lie in the liberal arts and not math and science. And I'm sure there are Asian students just like me.

Yes there are -- like me, for example :D I majored in Art and Psychology in college. Believe me, that would be a big F-U to most Asian parents I know.

When I was in HS I took an art class, but I seriously think the only reason they offered it was because the enrollment to California Sate University (CSU) system required one year of art/music. They actually killed Film/Video class right after I graduated because it wasn't part of CSU or UC (University of California) requirement! I definitely felt like I was in a prep school rather than public school.

It's sad, because when you're in such competitive environment you're only focused on making the grade -- and not actually learning the material. I took Calculus AP in my senior year and got an A, but only because I learned to "beat the system" and score tons of extra credit points. I still can't tell you jack about derivatives...

[wordsmith]

It's funny to me, because of the Asian kids (all two!) that I graduated, the one with whom I've kept up, because she'sone of my lifelong best friends, got her B.A. in studio art, painting, specifically.

[wordsmith]

Yes there are -- like me, for example :D I majored in Art and Psychology in college.

We're probably a bit alike. Except I'm an INFP. :p

[K-man]

Some parents even go out of their way to fake divorces (I do know of someone who has done this) and move to other school districts just so their kids can attend a good school for whatever sport they play to get more playing time so that college recruiters can consider them.

Fake PG&E bill was all that was needed until few years ago. Now the HS district in my area is really regulating -- I think they kicked out over a thousand students last spring, many only few months before graduation.

[SmilesSoSweet]

It's sad, because when you're in such competitive environment you're only focused on making the grade -- and not actually learning the material. I took Calculus AP in my senior year and got an A, but only because I learned to "beat the system" and score tons of extra credit points. I still can't tell you jack about derivatives...

I'm Filipino and my brother and sister had humanities majors as well - sociology and pyschololgy. Our grandpa always wanted to have a doctor in the family - which I don't think he'dllever get. One cousin graduated with Computer Info Systems, another in Econonics, another in Hotel Restaurant Management, two other cousins are mass communications majors and one wants to be a nurse. I was in landscape architecture and my youngest cousin who is a senior in high school wants to an architect. Yeah math is sort of necessary in landscape architecture and architecture, but so is art, art history, sketching, etc. So the whole math and science focus is a bunch of crap.

Oh and the AP courses in high school - English, Calculus, US History, Economics, Psychology, etc. It was required to take a certain amount of AP classes in my program in high school. I barely passed AP Calculus and in college I only had to take a Trig class for my major! But my counselor in high school said I needed to take it to get in. I told her I'd rather take drafting and art classes, she wasn't too thrilled but after I graduated from college I saw my high school counselor again (my little cousin graduated at the same school and had the same counselor so that's how I ran in to her) and she was just proud that I finished school and had a good career going. So much for AP Calculus!

And AP doesn't mean advance placement in college. It's something you don't want to be on - Academic Probation. LOL

[yankeeyosh]

Oh and the AP courses in high school - English, Calculus, US History, Economics, Psychology, etc. It was required to take a certain amount of AP classes in my program in high school. I barely passed AP Calculus and in college I only had to take a Trig class for my major! But my counselor in high school said I needed to take it to get in. I told her I'd rather take drafting and art classes, she wasn't too thrilled but after I graduated from college I saw my high school counselor again (my little cousin graduated at the same school and had the same counselor so that's how I ran in to her) and she was just proud that I finished school and had a good career going. So much for AP Calculus!

??? I never heard of that...they FORCE you to take AP? I thought most people (or at least those who find education as a means to an end) take AP because it looks good on their college resume and/or their parents expect them to take it.

At my high school, the guidance counselors warned students not to take more than 2 AP courses because there aren't enough hours in a day to take more...of course, being I was in a nerd school in an overachieving class, many didn't heed that warning...

[wordsmith]

My high school didn't even HAVE AP classes until long after I graduated. We did have ability tracking, and "accelerated" classes in the core subjects. And those served to give you a leg up, exposure and experience-wise, though not credit-wise, when you got to college.

Of course, I also fought my high school guidance counselor who told me that I was never going to amount to anything in life if I insisted on only taking two years of math in high school. I love it when I run into her in my editor's capacity these days, and remind her that "I achieved all this" (haha) with only algebra and geometry under my belt. How I've managed to keep out of the gutter, I'll never know. :googly:

[Skyblade]

The only AP class I took in high school was Calculus BC AP. I didn't even take the AP test, cuz I didn't want to waste $80 or whatever it was. Turns out it didn't really matter because being a Communication & Sociology major in college, you only need statistics.

Actually, I did take AP Chemistry for a week. Even though I took the little evaluation test in the beginning of the class and it said I would do allright, I decided to drop it cuz it was too much stress.

[K-man]

We're probably a bit alike. Except I'm an INFP. :p

Damn...one more letter and we could've been soul mates! :D I hear Virgin Mary was an INFP...don't ask me how they gave her the test.

It's interesting you bring up your Asian friend. There are definitely artsy Asians -- but I've found that some of them took on art just to be rebellious against their parents. Red highlights and/or piercings helps too.

I'm not trying to stereotype, it's just something I observed while studying Art in college. Being a graphic designer I guess I'm somewhere in the middle of being artistic and business-minded. I need to be creative and have eyes for beauty, but at the same time I'm in the business of solving problems and attracting customers.

[yankeeyosh]

The only AP class I took in high school was Calculus BC AP. I didn't even take the AP test, cuz I didn't want to waste $80 or whatever it was. Turns out it didn't really matter because being a Communication & Sociology major in college, you only need statistics.

Actually, I did take AP Chemistry for a week. Even though I took the little evaluation test in the beginning of the class and it said I would do allright, I decided to drop it cuz it was too much stress.

Wow, those are the same exact AP's I took (although I stuck with Chem...even though I didn't really like it)

[and1grad]

Well...adding to the nerd parade...

I wound up taking AP Calc, Chem, Spanish, and Physics. I think the only ones that I didnt take were History and English b/c the writing and reading assignments were ridiculously excessive.

[Skyblade]

I would have taken AP French, but it conflicted w/ marching band :D

[wordsmith]

Damn...one more letter and we could've been soul mates! :D I hear Virgin Mary was an INFP...don't ask me how they gave her the test.

Yeah, she and I have a lot in common. I figure, though, that the U2 song title balances out the one different letter.

It's interesting you bring up your Asian friend. There are definitely artsy Asians -- but I've found that some of them took on art just to be rebellious against their parents. Red highlights and/or piercings helps too.

Or in her case, tattoos and street drugs. Really, though, if she was rebellious against her parents, it wasn't a cultural rebellion...her dad's not Asian, and her mom isn't particularly in tune with her ethnicity.

[yankeeyosh]

Well...adding to the nerd parade...

I wound up taking AP Calc, Chem, Spanish, and Physics. I think the only ones that I didnt take were History and English b/c the writing and reading assignments were ridiculously excessive.

I would figure History and English would have the least homework of the bunch...(not to stereotype or anything)...just out of personal experience.

[K-man]

Wordsmith: wow, no APs? In these parts kids start their path to over-achievement early on -- when I was in junior high there were group of 6th graders called "super sixers" (90% Asian, of course) who left their elementary schools early to take advanced courses. I think some kids were in Spanish 3 by the time they were freshman in HS!

Skyblade: props to you for taking Calculus BC...I was in AB and that was hard enough. Funny story -- a friend of mine majord in enginnering, and he said even in his third year of engineering math he was learning stuff he already knew from his BC class!

[wordsmith]

No AP classes. Small, rural consolidated district. I live in the heartland, amber waves of grain, yadda yadda.

We also didn't have people jockeying for position to get their kids into the "good schools." There were no "good schools" or "bad schools," there was just THE school. And then, 25 miles later, there was the next school. It's different here than it is in urban-suburban settings.

Don't get me wrong, it's not to knock the education or call it subpar at all. I went from my rural district and had no problem whatsoever going nose to nose with prep school kids at my selective admissions, private college. I was well-prepared, even out in the cornfields, even without the benefit of AP coursework. We had gifted/talented programming, we had small class sizes and individualized attention. It was fine.

[yankeeyosh]

Wordsmith: wow, no APs? In these parts kids start their path to over-achievement early on -- when I was in junior high there were group of 6th graders called "super sixers" (90% Asian, of course) who left their elementary schools early to take advanced courses. I think some kids were in Spanish 3 by the time they were freshman in HS!

I had plenty of that too...many of the kids I went to JHS with were in special Japanese-style math classes to give them a leg up, and were taking the SAT in 7th grade. They were mostly Asian, but we all felt the pressure.

[yankeeyosh]

No AP classes. Small, rural consolidated district. I live in the heartland, amber waves of grain, yadda yadda.

We also didn't have people jockeying for position to get their kids into the "good schools." There were no "good schools" or "bad schools," there was just THE school. And then, 25 miles later, there was the next school. It's different here than it is in urban-suburban settings.

Don't get me wrong, it's not to knock the education or call it subpar at all. I went from my rural district and had no problem whatsoever going nose to nose with prep school kids at my selective admissions, private college. I was well-prepared, even out in the cornfields, even without the benefit of AP coursework.

Yeah, my best friend, who's another midwesterner (west-central Minnesota) actually is class of 99, didn't have an AP's either in his high school. He did more than fine in undergrad and grad school.

[K-man]

many of the kids I went to JHS with were in special Japanese-style math classes to give them a leg up, and were taking the SAT in 7th grade.

You must be talking about Kumon -- my mom actually worked there as a tutor for a while. I never took those classes myself, but I remember these kids who took them can calculate big numbers REALLY fast.

[K-man]

If you read some of the comments below the article, one shows that the President of the PTA was so upset about how they misquoted her that she wrote a letter to the WSJ. It would seem that the article is misrepresenting things a lot.
Didn't see them -- thx for pointing them out.

[yankeeyosh]

You must be talking about Kumon -- my mom actually worked there as a tutor for a while. I never took those classes myself, but I remember these kids who took them can calculate big numbers REALLY fast.

Yeah, that's it...

[wordsmith]

Yeah, my best friend, who's another midwesterner (west-central Minnesota) actually is class of 99, didn't have an AP's either in his high school. He did more than fine in undergrad and grad school.

Where at? I went to college in southern central Minnesota.

One reason you don't find AP classes as much in rural districts is because nobody requests them. They've got them now, here, but it didn't happen until somebody drew attention to it. Rural kids, as a rule, do not often go to Ivy League schools...a few here and there, but it's not the norm...the Ivy Leagues are far away. Academic competitiveness is generally low. So you don't have lots of parents jockeying for position and/or projecting it onto their kids.

[yankeeyosh]

Where at? I went to college in southern central Minnesota.

One reason you don't find AP classes as much in rural districts is because nobody requests them. They've got them now, here, but it didn't happen until somebody drew attention to it. Rural kids, as a rule, do not often go to Ivy League schools...a few here and there, but it's not the norm...the Ivy Leagues are far away. So you don't have lots of parents jockeying for position and/or projecting it onto their kids.

He went to the University of North Dakota...only that school and Minnesota State-Saint Cloud have meteorology programs in the area...

Regarding AP and the pressure, I agree, it is definitely a lot more common in the Northeast and California than in middle America...although there are signs of that changing. Frankly, it's probably a lot easier to get into an Ivy League school if you're from a small town, since these colleges want geographic diversity. I remember someone fretting the year I graduated that even though he got a 1530 or something like that on his SAT, he couldn't get into the school he wanted to, but his friend in Nebraska, who did far worse, was able to.

[wordsmith]

Regarding AP and the pressure, I agree, it is definitely a lot more common in the Northeast and California than in middle America...although there are signs of that changing.

Yes, but even so, this change is most notable in the urban centers of middle America. As that Chicago Sun-Times article pointed out, Midwestern schools like Northwestern University, University of Chicago, and University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana are approaching Ivy League standards for admission and expectations, and that's reflected in students' aspirations and the amount of pressure on them. But it's not every 18-year old who's willing to go extremely far away, and not everybody has the grades for Northwestern, U of I, or U of C.

[SmilesSoSweet]

??? I never heard of that...they FORCE you to take AP? I thought most people (or at least those who find education as a means to an end) take AP because it looks good on their college resume and/or their parents expect them to take it.

At my high school, the guidance counselors warned students not to take more than 2 AP courses because there aren't enough hours in a day to take more...of course, being I was in a nerd school in an overachieving class, many didn't heed that warning...

I was in an academic program that it was required to take AP classes as early as your sophomore year. The program also offered every single AP class that possible. At the time there were about 20 AP tests nation-wide to take and my program had classes for each one.

[yankeeyosh]

Yes, but even so, this change is most notable in the urban centers of middle America. As that Chicago Sun-Times article pointed out, Midwestern schools like Northwestern University, University of Chicago, and University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana are approaching Ivy League standards for admission and expectations, and that's reflected in students' aspirations and the amount of pressure on them. But it's not every 18-year old who's willing to go extremely far away, and not everybody has the grades for Northwestern, U of I, or U of C.

Yeah, but Chicago is always like the mini-New York. That said, admission standings even for state schools have rapidly changed too over the years. I remember one guy I graduated with got rejected from Penn State with a 1280 SAT and 3.8 GPA...his brother, who was two years older than him, got into Penn State with a 900 SAT and 3.0 GPA. The caliber of kids at schools like FSU, too, are remarkable...every undergrad I met seemed to have 30 AP credits coming in; granted, they were on the grad-school track, but they were amazing.

[yankeeyosh]

I was in an academic program that it was required to take AP classes as early as your sophomore year. The program also offered every single AP class that possible. At the time there were about 20 AP tests nation-wide to take and my program had classes for each one.

Wow...I would guess that a lot of parents were pushing their kids into that program. Basically, that would mean that your college aspirations would likely be judged by your decision freshman year of whether to enter this program or not.

[SmilesSoSweet]

Wow...I would guess that a lot of parents were pushing their kids into that program. Basically, that would mean that your college aspirations would likely be judged by your decision freshman year of whether to enter this program or not.

You had to get excepted into the program. But the program started freshman year meaning you had to apply in the eighth grade to get into it the following year. The good thing about it was that the counselors in the program really prepared you for college. They made sure you had your requirements, letters of rec, met application deadlines, etc. There was another program right below this one that focused more on business, but students in that program were also encouraged to take AP classes as soon as they can.

[wordsmith]

Another thing that's most assuredly a regional thing is that parents just DON'T get competitive about their kids' schools, or their kid even GOING to school. "Name" schools don't get tossed around in a one-upmanship kind of way. It's just a different way of life. I can't picture my parents, or any of the parents of college aged people I know in the area comparing notes about schools and/or school experiences and trying to make sure each other's kids one-up each other, comparing who's in what high school program. It's just not the atmosphere.

[yankeeyosh]

You had to get excepted into the program. But the program started freshman year meaning you had to apply in the eighth grade to get into it the following year. The good thing about it was that the counselors in the program really prepared you for college. They made sure you had your requirements, letters of rec, met application deadlines, etc. There was another program right below this one that focused more on business, but students in that program were also encouraged to take AP classes as soon as they can.

What happens if, say, you can't handle all the AP work? Do you get kicked out of the program?

[yankeeyosh]

Another thing that's most assuredly a regional thing is that parents just DON'T get competitive about their kids' schools, or their kid even GOING to school. "Name" schools don't get tossed around in a one-upmanship kind of way. It's just a different way of life. I can't picture my parents, or any of the parents of college aged people I know in the area comparing notes about schools and/or school experiences and trying to make sure each other's kids one-up each other, comparing who's in what high school program. It's just not the atmosphere.

**sigh** what a wonderful place that must be...

[wordsmith]

I've always liked it. Good place to grow up. :)

[bridgetjones]

Hmm... I went to an academic HS in TO and there were alot of asians namely Chinese HK and Philipinos. Yes I did notice that their parents did put more pressure on average to get high grades than the white kids. Well the white kids do have pressure to get good grades just not as much as it was one of those schools were like 99% go to uni. The best academic schools in TO can resemble a Chinese/ Indian restaurant with a smattering of white kids.

In general it was the Asians that dominated the highest grades contest. It was abit much that you'd see someone beat themselves up bc they got a 89%. Nope did not see the white kids beat themselves up over that stuff. Well maybe only if they really needed a grade to get into uni... Oh yeah and I have experienced being the phenomenon of being called a dumb white kid. Huh? :mad:

[yankeeyosh]

Hmm... I went to an academic HS in TO and there were alot of asians namely Chinese HK and Philipinos. Yes I did notice that their parents did put more pressure on average to get high grades than the white kids. Well the white kids do have pressure to get good grades just not as much as it was one of those schools were like 99% go to uni. The best academic schools in TO can resemble a Chinese/ Indian restaurant with a smattering of white kids.

In general it was the Asians that dominated the highest grades contest. It was abit much that you'd see someone beat themselves up bc they got a 89%. Nope did not see the white kids beat themselves up over that stuff. Well maybe only if they really needed a grade to get into uni... Oh yeah and I have experienced being the phenomenon of being called a dumb white kid. Huh? :mad:

I assume "TO" means Toronto?

Where I went to school, while the Asian kids were beating each other up over grades, white kids were doing to same. And to be frank with all of you, I was one of them...I remmeber time and time again getting upset throughout my academic career because I got a grade that wasn't up to par (little of it was because of my parents; this was all self-inflicted). But I remember getting upset if I was on the precipice of falling below A-level in math, and getting B's in Social Studies...this lasted through college...and a little bit into high school. I guess when you're in an environment your whole life that has that type of aura, it never goes away. And it's a terrible cycle to be in.

[J-girl]

Fair enough- they don't want their kids to be in an academically driven environment, they can enroll them elsewhere but I hate how the article made a huge deal about it. My parents made sure we went to well rounded high schools. Most of them had few minorities and these were your regular middle class/ working class neighbourhood high schools. Both me and my sister did well in sciences. IT really depends upon the kids aptitude.

[and1grad]

I would figure History and English would have the least homework of the bunch...(not to stereotype or anything)...just out of personal experience.
Not at my school. Those 2 classes did more intensive writing than I wound up doing in my writing classes in college.

[yankeeyosh]

Not at my school. Those 2 classes did more intensive writing than I wound up doing in my writing classes in college.

Now that I recall, I remember dropping out of AP History because it was such an intensive course, with a lot of writing, which I hated at the time (so I take what I say back). All my classmates looked at me as a fool and had pity on me...looking back, I think I should have taken it not because of them, but because the last few years, I really gained a keen appreciation of history and enjoy it fully :)

[and1grad]

Now that I think about it, the only thing I regret about h.s. is that I didnt take Auto class seriously. Could've learned a lot of useful stuff there.

[wordsmith]

Every English class I've ever had, high school and beyond, has been extraordinarily writing-intensive, and it's paid off well for me. I love it, so it was never like work. Time-consuming, to be sure...very much so. But never a chore.

[K-man]

Now that I think about it, the only thing I regret about h.s. is that I didnt take Auto class seriously. Could've learned a lot of useful stuff there.
Me too. I took Auto for two semesters but used it as finish-my-math-homework-time instead.

[inuts]

As always, I chime in just a little too late.

It's not like "White Flight" is shocking. For anyone paying attention to US Census statistics and demographic patterns, "Black Flight" has been in effect for a long time, too. And sometimes blacks get stereotyped for not being as academically advanced as whites, much like the whites in the article who were afraid of being stereotyped as slackers when compared with the asian students.

That said, I went to an all-white (almost all French descendant) high school, and an ethnically and culturally diverse college.

[SpaceMonkey]

My high school experience was a little strange. I grew up in Ithaca, NY, which is a small town in predominantly rural surroundings. But it's also the home of Cornell University and Ithaca College, and Ithaca High School is right at the foot of Cornell's hill. So the student population was a mix of a lot of children of Cornell and IC faculty and other professionals associated with the colleges, but also children of people who lived and worked out in the more rural surrounding areas. Socially, this made for a pretty big rift---I was in the faculty kids group, and didn't really associate much with people who weren't. There were a lot of AP classes offered (I took AP Calc BC, Stats, English Lit, US History, Physics, and Chemistry) and some noticable competition, but only in that one side of the social divide.

[yankeeyosh]

My high school experience was a little strange. I grew up in Ithaca, NY, which is a small town in predominantly rural surroundings. But it's also the home of Cornell University and Ithaca College, and Ithaca High School is right at the foot of Cornell's hill. So the student population was a mix of a lot of children of Cornell and IC faculty and other professionals associated with the colleges, but also children of people who lived and worked out in the more rural surrounding areas. Socially, this made for a pretty big rift---I was in the faculty kids group, and didn't really associate much with people who weren't. There were a lot of AP classes offered (I took AP Calc BC, Stats, US History, Physics, and Chemistry) and some noticable competition, but only in that one side of the social divide.

Ah, Ithaca...how I miss thee...

[SmilesSoSweet]

What happens if, say, you can't handle all the AP work? Do you get kicked out of the program?

You can or you can go to summer school to make it up. I had some friends fail the non-AP classes and the counselors allowed them to take summer school at the high school. If you failed the AP classes I think you were able to sign up at the local community college to make it up.

[bridgetjones]

I assume "TO" means Toronto?

Where I went to school, while the Asian kids were beating each other up over grades, white kids were doing to same. And to be frank with all of you, I was one of them...I remmeber time and time again getting upset throughout my academic career because I got a grade that wasn't up to par (little of it was because of my parents; this was all self-inflicted). But I remember getting upset if I was on the precipice of falling below A-level in math, and getting B's in Social Studies...this lasted through college...and a little bit into high school. I guess when you're in an environment your whole life that has that type of aura, it never goes away. And it's a terrible cycle to be in.

Yep Toronto. Chinatown North! Ha! We got more than one Chinatown in this city. There is Chinatown Northeast (Markham). There is a Chinatown Northcentral (Pacific Mall ppl!). There is Chinatown Downtown. Recently I have also found out there is a Chinatown West. Well I am not going to get into where the other parts of Asia are congragating in TO.

Anyhoo in my experience I have noticed that Asian kids (mostly Chinese/Korean/Japanese) tend to be under much more pressure from parents to do well in school. The overachieving white kids I knew were more motivated from self pressure than parental pressure. Sure I was EXPECTED to do well in school but not pushed and punished.

[yankeeyosh]

You can or you can go to summer school to make it up. I had some friends fail the non-AP classes and the counselors allowed them to take summer school at the high school. If you failed the AP classes I think you were able to sign up at the local community college to make it up.


Mmm...you know what this sounds like? The IB (International Baccaulaureate) program, only that AP's are used instead...

[SmilesSoSweet]

Mmm...you know what this sounds like? The IB (International Baccaulaureate) program, only that AP's are used instead...

Yup is the same thing except instead of calling it IB or AP program it was called the PACE program Program of Additional Curriculum Experiences or something like that. This program has been around since the mid 1970s. And it's even nationally known. There's another school in a neighboring city where the entire high school (about 1500 kids) are all in a similar program. My school was about 500 kids from all four grades.

[RudeGirl]

Where I went to school, while the Asian kids were beating each other up over grades, white kids were doing to same. And to be frank with all of you, I was one of them...I remmeber time and time again getting upset throughout my academic career because I got a grade that wasn't up to par (little of it was because of my parents; this was all self-inflicted). But I remember getting upset if I was on the precipice of falling below A-level in math, and getting B's in Social Studies...this lasted through college...and a little bit into high school. I guess when you're in an environment your whole life that has that type of aura, it never goes away. And it's a terrible cycle to be in.


I experienced the same thing in my public high school, except the AP class kids were all black or white. In the Northeast, there are very few Asians in quasi-suburban public schools, for whatever reason.

Most of the kids in my AP math and science classes had moms and dads that went batshit over grades and college admissions, and who forced their kids to adopt that mindset. My dad never got into it, fortunately--since he was a single dad, he never "fit in" with the "soccer moms," and he didn't care what I did, as long as I didn't flunk out of high school and I showed up 9 days out of ten.

One girl in my class, for example, wanted to major in art, and her parents talked her into pre-med at CMU (which is silly, because Pitt has a better pre-med program and costs 25% as much). If you got a B on a calculus or chemistry test, it was a grand sin, and you had to repent by staying in all weekend and cramming--but, to be fair, cheating was also popular; one of my classmates had a habit of calling me for chem homework answers. Since all of the AP courses were weighted, some of us had ridiculous GPAs in high school, like 4.35...! :surprised

In college, I did poorly in philosophy and art history, because they ain't my thang, and with that pressure left over from high school, I beat myself up about it. I now--finally--realize that it's inconsequential, because if I can't identify pottery from ancient Egypt or analyze John Stuart Mill, I haven't really failed at life, but I certainly didn't think that way when I was 19.

[yankeeyosh]

Most of the kids in my AP math and science classes had moms and dads that went batshit over grades and college admissions, and who forced their kids to adopt that mindset. My dad never got into it, fortunately--since he was a single dad, he never "fit in" with the "soccer moms," and he didn't care what I did, as long as I didn't flunk out of high school and I showed up 9 days out of ten.

Well, I'm very glad you weren't pressured as much as some kids are...these kids are all going to have ulcers by the time they're 30. It's just a shame how Boomers are essentially tainting the growing-up years of today's youth by frazzling them with inordinate amounts of pressure.

One girl in my class, for example, wanted to major in art, and her parents talked her into pre-med at CMU (which is silly, because Pitt has a better pre-med program and costs 25% as much). If you got a B on a calculus or chemistry test, it was a grand sin, and you had to repent by staying in all weekend and cramming--but, to be fair, cheating was also popular; one of my classmates had a habit of calling me for chem homework answers. Since all of the AP courses were weighted, some of us had ridiculous GPAs in high school, like 4.35...! :surprised

Yeah, that stuff happened at my school too...granted, it was a "nerd" school which you had to take a test to get into, but news reports coming around that time show that there was a growing sense of anxiety and pressure from parents on high school students all over.

Our HS didn't have a 4.0 scale...we had a 0-100 scale, and AP's weren't weighted (although I know that at some schools, kids were given 10 extra points for AP)

[wordsmith]

Well, I'm very glad you weren't pressured as much as some kids are...these kids are all going to have ulcers by the time they're 30. It's just a shame how Boomers are essentially tainting the growing-up years of today's youth by frazzling them with inordinate amounts of pressure.

You know, I've been thinking more and more about this...and I really do think that it has hugely to do with the general atmosphere of where I grew up. Rural middle America just does not stress about this stuff at all in the same way you all are describing. And as a disclaimer, it's not like there are no expectations...the types of employment here are obviously more limited; everybody who grows up here knows that if you don't do well enough to get into college, you'll have no choice but to stick around and work in agriculture or processing plants (not that you can't attain higher educational levels and still stay/come back and be employed in these things, just in a higher up, less blue collar capacity...but there's a difference between having the choice, and it being your only option). But there's generally a much more relaxed, not all that competitive, atmosphere...even from the boomer parents, like most of my classmates. There are so few parents who are really on their kids' case about stuff like that, overall. A few isolated instances because that's just who the parents are, sure (my own dad's blue-collar employed dad, so the story goes, glanced over my dad's high school grades one grading period, and said, "Huh, all A's and one B....so why'd you get the B?"). But it's not such a widespread, ingrained culture of intense parental pressure and competitiveness. It's generally much more laid back.

[yankeeyosh]

You know, I've been thinking more and more about this...and I really do think that it has hugely to do with the general atmosphere of where I grew up. Rural middle America just does not stress about this stuff at all in the same way you all are describing. And as a disclaimer, it's not like there are no expectations...the types of employment here are obviously more limited; everybody who grows up here knows that if you don't do well enough to get into college, you'll have no choice but to stick around and work in agriculture or processing plants (not that you can't attain higher educational levels and still stay/come back and be employed in these things, just in a higher up, less blue collar capacity...but there's a difference between having the choice, and it being your only option). But there's generally a much more relaxed, not all that competitive, atmosphere...even from the boomer parents, like most of my classmates. There are so few parents who are really on their kids' case about stuff like that, overall. A few isolated instances because that's just who the parents are, sure (my own dad's blue-collar employed dad, so the story goes, glanced over my dad's high school grades one grading period, and said, "Huh, all A's and one B....so why'd you get the B?"). But it's not such a widespread, ingrained culture of intense parental pressure and competitiveness. It's generally much more laid back.


Agree...as I mentioned, until very recently it was mostly limited to the Northeast/California, and Chicago...possibly to a lesser extent Saint Louis, Atlanta, Denver...cities like that. But it's getting to the point where you can easily get into an Ivy League school 15 years ago, but now, with the same credentials, you're probably stuck at a second-tier regional public college.

[wordsmith]

But it's getting to the point where you can easily get into an Ivy League school 15 years ago, but now, with the same credentials, you're probably stuck at a second-tier regional public college.

Not so sure on that one. There are plenty of respectable schools offering quality education to those who apply themselves that one can be easily accepted into if one is a serious student who shows promise (affording to go can be another matter for some...but I'm talking just acceptance alone, here). I don't think it's as black and white as "Ivy Leagues or second-tier regional public college." There's a lot that falls in between.

[Angyl]

I thought I'd mention that i was super invovled in HS, along with getting good grades i held down two part tiem jobs, speech, mock trial, orchestra and a spattering of drama work. However.

I had to get my mock trial coach to call ym parents and convince them to let me do it. I hid all of my drama work until it was basically too late. My parents never went to any of my performances. Neither did they go to a lot of my orchestra performances. They wanted me to concentrate of my schoolwork and part tiem jobs, so I could get into a good school. They were furious when i switched from pre-med to journalism. I'm still arguing with them over my career path, and now my father thinks I should do corporate communications, which I do'nt at all want to do.

Some parents are still very very pressuring, some aren't it depends on whether your paretns were the assimlation parents or the old school types. I have old school parents. I still love em though.

[yankeeyosh]

What's funny is that my parents never really put any pressure on me growing up. All the pressure I had was self-inflicted, and due to the competitive environment I was surrounded by in school. It wasn't until after I graduated college that I started feeling the heat. First, my parents told me to become an actuary, so I took a couple of exams and passed, and went on a million interviews, only to get rejected from all of them (except one, which I got terminated from after a couple of months...and they only hired me because there was a little cat modeling involved, and they liked my meteorology background...I didn't really get to do much in terms of cat modeling when I was there, though...). Then, when that didn't work out, and I decided to go back to school for meteorology, you know that my parents were not thrilled about it. Then, as I was about to graduate, my parents were pressuring me to get a Ph. D. And now, with all the disappointments and everything of this past year, they're telling me to start over, and take up accounting. Now, I'm living under their roof again, so the pressure is really intense. I really don't know what to do anymore :cry: Should I take up accounting, go get another master's degree or Ph. D., try the actuarial route again, or keep plugging away for cat modeling????? Or just stick with pensions? :cry:

[wordsmith]

Yeah, I hear you...all my pressure comes from my own expectations of myself. Nothing anybody else put on me. My parents would still think I'm the greatest thing ever if I were a convenience store clerk.

[grneyedmustang]

Most of my pressure was self-inflicted. My dad did give me quite a bit of heat about my grades, college choices, etc., but I did that to myself also. My HS class was also extremely competitive, so that probably had something to do with it.

I think my mom would love me even if I decided to flip burgers at Mickey D's for a living.

[RudeGirl]

Yeah, I hear you...all my pressure comes from my own expectations of myself. Nothing anybody else put on me. My parents would still think I'm the greatest thing ever if I were a convenience store clerk.


My parents, particularly my father, think of me as a disappointment :cry:

Sorry to hear that, Mark. Sometimes, the same-sex parent does that. My dad doesn't care what I do, as long as I am happy--when I was applying for customer service and retail management programs, he thought that was just great, too--but my mother told me a while back, for example, "See what happened since you took a year off after college? You wasted time, dicked around in bullshit jobs, and now you'll never get into law/med/grad/clown school and be serious." She doesn't get it, I'll never please her, and that's one of the many reasons I won't have a relationship with her.

[yankeeyosh]

Sorry to hear that, Mark. Sometimes, the same-sex parent does that. My dad doesn't care what I do, as long as I am happy--when I was applying for customer service and retail management programs, he thought that was just great, too--but my mother told me a while back, for example, "See what happened since you took a year off after college? You wasted time, dicked around in bullshit jobs, and now you'll never get into law/med/grad/clown school and be serious." She doesn't get it, I'll never please her, and that's one of the many reasons I won't have a relationship with her.

thanks...my mom actually is all right...she supports me and is optimistic...but my father had higher expectations, and it's really affecting him...and hence is affecting me.

[SpaceMonkey]

Ah, Ithaca...how I miss thee...

You wouldn't miss it so much if you'd spent most of the last 22 years of your life here! :razz:

[lilyflower]

You know, I've been thinking more and more about this...and I really do think that it has hugely to do with the general atmosphere of where I grew up. Rural middle America just does not stress about this stuff at all in the same way you all are describing. And as a disclaimer, it's not like there are no expectations...the types of employment here are obviously more limited; everybody who grows up here knows that if you don't do well enough to get into college, you'll have no choice but to stick around and work in agriculture or processing plants (not that you can't attain higher educational levels and still stay/come back and be employed in these things, just in a higher up, less blue collar capacity...but there's a difference between having the choice, and it being your only option). But there's generally a much more relaxed, not all that competitive, atmosphere...even from the boomer parents, like most of my classmates. There are so few parents who are really on their kids' case about stuff like that, overall. A few isolated instances because that's just who the parents are, sure (my own dad's blue-collar employed dad, so the story goes, glanced over my dad's high school grades one grading period, and said, "Huh, all A's and one B....so why'd you get the B?"). But it's not such a widespread, ingrained culture of intense parental pressure and competitiveness. It's generally much more laid back.

My hometown was pretty similiar in that regard, Jess. I was in the AP/honors classes (and in my year - we only had AP Calculus and AP English - I took both), I also took every single advanced science/science elective option offered. But no one really told me to take all that - in fact, I actually was told a lot that maybe I SHOULDN'T take anatomy along with academic chem and trig and so on but I did and did fine, (hell, I almost never studied.). It was a different culture I think - my senior class was 99 students and I'd say there were probably about twelve of us or so that were real high acheivers (most of us were all in the advanced classes together). We were our own little enclave and the "best and the brightest" and in most situations our parents HADN'T gone to college so there was no major pressure to go - although it was expected that we'd all go on scholarship (which we all did).

But as for schools, not one of us went to anything close to an Ivy League - I don't think any of us even applied. I had a 1230 SAT score, a 3.8 GPA and was 10th in my class and it seriously never crossed my mind that I'd even get INTO an Ivy League school. I got a pretty sizeable scholarship to U of Scranton, so I went there. A few of my peers in that top group did as well. A few others went to Wilkes (another local school), two went to Kings (also local), two went to PSU Main Campus, one went to Pitt, one went to Marywood, another went to Bard, and the rest went to East Stroudsburg and Bloom. And we were the ones who went to the "good schools"!! The rest of my class who went to college went to the local (shitty) campus of PSU - aptly nicknamed PSU Worthless or Keystone (a really crappy school nearby with like virtually no requirements for admission) or one of the junior colleges nearby.

Like, there was actually a huge thing about the handful of us who DIDN'T go to state schools and went the private route instead. (U of Scranton, Marywood and Wilkes are all private). All of us who did had sizeable scholarships or we'd never have been able to. Almost no one went away - only one person left the state - a lot of that had to do with state grants which in PA, you only get if you go to school IN Pennsylvania (well, in most cases).

Of course, I was in for major culture shock in college when most of the kids I went to U of Scranton with were from the rich suburbs in New Jersey and came to school with brand new cars, but I digress.