Is it right in some circumstances to smack children?

[SunDevil]

That is the name of a poll at CNN I saw today.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/11/uk.blair.smacking/index.html

I voted on that poll, thinking that 80-90% would say no. Was I ever surprised... Is there something that I don't know? Does something change once you become a parent? Is physical violence the only way to keep kids in line and under control. Did Mom & Dad get hit as kids and that's all they know?

My childhood wasn't quite as bad as some other people here, but that is partly because I did everything perfectly from age 12-23. I didn't get in trouble, went to school, got a degree, didn't stay out late, didn't smoke/drink/do drugs, ... Is this because I was living in fear of being hit if I did anything wrong? When I was a kid (under 7), there was only one time where I felt it was justified, and that was when I was chasing after my sister with a knife. I wasn't going to hurt her, but it was a joke. (I'd seen those 80's Halloween movies).

Do I still fear certain situations because of 20 year old memories? Is this why I am a perfectionist and am very hard on myself, because I want my parents to like me? Would you use spanking/hitting or the threat of it as punishment?

[meatwad]

Is smacking like spanking? I don't see a problem with spanking. I was spanked when I was bad. But I think slapping your child or worse is out of line.

[capella]

I don't think spanking is effective as a punishment on a continual basis and I don't think it's right after your kids know right from wrong (like 6 or 7ish), when they understand reason that is (notice I didn't say they had to act with reason, just understand it). There isn't anything wrong with swatting a kid on the bottom when he or she is out of line. There's a big difference between the occasional bottom swat and full on beating regularly for no real good reason. I was beat regularly for no good reason and I'm definitely not condoning child abuse, however, I don't think that "Now, Johnny, that's not nice" is an effective way to correct your kid either.

When my kids are older they will definitely get more creative and offense-specific corrections for bad behavior than a spanking.

[and1grad]

I'm all for "spanking" when its warranted.

[biodork]

I think smacking your kids just escalates into worse things, because once you start smacking then nothing else will work for discipline except that, and then it gets harder to get them to behave better. This is exactly what happened to my bf's brother, his mom smacks him around when he's misbehaving and I'm pretty sure she beats him worse now. But he won't behave if she just tells him to. (She's not a very good mother anyways, but I think it's still a good example).

[wordsmith]

I have no problem with spanking. That's a LIGHT, deterrant swat on the behind for a small child in a lower developmental stage, when reasoning more complex than simple cause and effect isn't in the cards. Once kids are old enough for other deterrants to be effective, leave it behind. I'm not talking punching, slapping, beating, etc. I feel that you should never spank out of anger, either.

[SunDevil]

I have no problem with spanking. That's a LIGHT, deterrant swat on the behind for a small child in a lower developmental stage, when reasoning more complex than simple cause and effect isn't in the cards.

So that doesn't include belts or rulers I take it. Would you consider it pyschological abuse if, let's say, the kid does something bad at 1pm, for the Mom to say "Wait until your Dad gets home". Then you are just sitting in your room in fear of what will happen when he finds out?

[wordsmith]

No weaponry, striking a child with an object is not cool. Lashing out in anger is not cool. You can't even discipline healthily or effectively if you're not in control of yourself. There's not point. No threats of bringing out the "big guns," ever (i.e. "wait till your father gets home," etc.). Regardless of the punishment method, parents need to be able to effectively disclipline separately...not "wait till your mom finds out," etc.

[lilyflower]

If I EVER raise a hand against my child, I will swiftly go jump off the nearest bridge.

(I voted no, in case you didn't figure that out)

[WeirdBrake]

I HATE the idea of hitting children. I don't think it's ever justified. I'm not saying that every parent who's ever hit his or her kids is a bad parent or an abusive monster. But hitting your kids, to me, is falling short. It's a mistake. The ideal should be to raise your kids without any physical punishment at all.

I have the strongest, gut-level repulsion toward the idea of hitting children. Call it whatever you want, but it's still a big, strong person exercising power of a smaller one-- inflicting pain and getting away with it because he can. Just another form of bullying. If your boss smacked you for making a mistake at work, you could press charges and sue. But parents have the "right" to smack around their kids as a method of "discipline?" I don't buy that.

A while back, wives were considered the property of their husbands, and it was acceptable for their husbands to beat them to keep them in line. Now the more enlightened societies and individuals reject this. Eventually, we'll move toward a culture where it's less and less acceptable to hit one's own kids, and we'll look back at the widespread practice of corporal punishment with the same disgust as we do on those times when wife beating was socially approved.

[Bugsey34]

I said no. I don't see how it doesn't just bring violence into your home. I think if I my parents hit me I would equate them with being scared and possible violence.

[SunDevil]

I'm just surprised that 87% of the people who voted on the CNN poll said it was ok.

A few months ago, I was in line at the Post Office and this woman in front of me had two boys about 5 or so and weren't doing anything wrong, just running around and being normal. She then procedes to yell at them "GET OVER HERE, NOW", hits them on the side of the head and tells them to stand quietly in line with her. Everybody else must have thought it was normal, but I was having flashbacks to my childhood.

[RudeGirl]

Again, going back to the bus theme, I've seen kids get BEATEN on there. Once, this skinny little kid got on with two huge, lumpy women who proceded to smack the shit out of him all the way into town because he asked them why he couldn't get a month pass, or something totally random like that. They literally pummeled him on the thighs. It was disgusting.

After a while, he just stared straight ahead, like kids who get beaten usually do. Which was, of course, complete bullshit.

On the other hand, a couple of quick smacks when the kid is three, to teach him manners is never a bad idea. But not when the kid's nine--and not when his sin is to ask for a fucking bus pas.

[RudeGirl]

I said no. I don't see how it doesn't just bring violence into your home.

My grandmother smacked me when I touched the hot stove. That wasn't violence.

My aunt smacked me for swearing in public when I was in kindergarten. That wasn't violence.

My mother hit me regularly because she felt like it, until I was old enough to hit back. That was violence.

That's the difference.

[meatwad]

A swat on the bottom isn't beating your children. It's punishing them when they don't understand what, "Don't do that," means. It's a way to condition your child until they understand what no means.

[lilyflower]

Again, going back to the bus theme, I've seen kids get BEATEN on there. Once, this skinny little kid got on with two huge, lumpy women who proceded to smack the shit out of him all the way into town because he asked them why he couldn't get a month pass, or something totally random like that. They literally pummeled him on the thighs. It was disgusting.

After a while, he just stared straight ahead, like kids who get beaten usually do. Which was, of course, complete bullshit.

On the other hand, a couple of quick smacks when the kid is three, to teach him manners is never a bad idea. But not when the kid's nine--and not when his sin is to ask for a fucking bus pas.

RG, did you call the police? I would've whipped out my cell and called CYS (I believe that's the PA agency). I am totally not kidding.

[pisces2473]

I have no problem with spanking. That's a LIGHT, deterrant swat on the behind for a small child in a lower developmental stage, when reasoning more complex than simple cause and effect isn't in the cards. Once kids are old enough for other deterrants to be effective, leave it behind. I'm not talking punching, slapping, beating, etc. I feel that you should never spank out of anger, either.
Ditto.

A 2 year old doesn't understand, "No, don't touch that" but they'll understand a swat on the hand or the behind.

[pisces2473]

I don't think spanking is effective as a punishment on a continual basis and I don't think it's right after your kids know right from wrong (like 6 or 7ish), when they understand reason that is (notice I didn't say they had to act with reason, just understand it). There isn't anything wrong with swatting a kid on the bottom when he or she is out of line. There's a big difference between the occasional bottom swat and full on beating regularly for no real good reason. I was beat regularly for no good reason and I'm definitely not condoning child abuse, however, I don't think that "Now, Johnny, that's not nice" is an effective way to correct your kid either.

When my kids are older they will definitely get more creative and offense-specific corrections for bad behavior than a spanking.
Exactly. When they are old enough to understand "If you pull the cat's tail ONE more time, I'm taking away TV" then the spankings will end. I was spanked and I'm fine. Right guys??? Right??? lol j/k

[pisces2473]

Another thing... I really don't remember my spankings...and that's probably b/c they ended when I was old enough to understand right and wrong and consequences for actions.

RudeGirl, do you live in the ghetto? Damn, that's a crazy story.

[WeirdBrake]

Spanking is a euphemism for hitting. Let's call it for what it is. You're making hard contact with another person's body for the deliberate purpose of causing physical pain. Call it spanking, hitting, smacking, slapping, or "disciplining." It's all describing the same action.

I was spanked and I'm fine. Right guys??? Right??? lol j/k

LOL- We're all on a message board called "quarterlifecrisis." Who's "fine?"

[WeirdBrake]

RudeGirl, do you live in the ghetto? Damn, that's a crazy story.

*snicker* I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with "Fitzburgh."

[pisces2473]

Spanking is a euphemism for hitting. Let's call it for what it is. You're making hard contact with another person's body for the deliberate purpose of causing physical pain. Call it spanking, hitting, smacking, slapping, or "disciplining." It's all describing the same action.
A light tap is not the same as causing physical pain. The tap is a reminder...a beating is actual pain.

But we're gonna have to just disagree on this one. How would you discipline a 2 or 3 year old?

[and1grad]

Who's "fine?"
I am!! :cool:

[and1grad]

A light tap is not the same as causing physical pain. The tap is a reminder...a beating is actual pain.

But we're gonna have to just disagree on this one. How would you discipline a 2 or 3 year old?
He'd talk em to death. Seriously, its not worth the argument. You're never gonna convince someone who's in the opposite camp of anything.

[WeirdBrake]

And1 shows his battle scars. :twisted:

[pisces2473]

He'd talk em to death. Seriously, its not worth the argument. You're never gonna convince someone who's in the opposite camp of anything.
He'd tell the kid why it was bad/wrong/whatever until the kid passed out of sheer boredom!

[and1grad]

You've gotta pick your battles. I can argue this to death with anyone but for what? Cyclical arguments that go nowhere by design? Its too late for that.

[WeirdBrake]

You've gotta pick your battles. I can argue this to death with anyone but for what? Cyclical arguments that go nowhere by design? Its too late for that.

Now if I saw Jess say something like that, then I'd know something's afoot.

[and1grad]

And in her mouth is where that foot would be. Just sayin!! :evil: :lol:

[J-girl]

I don't mind spanking fo disciplining not with a friggin belt buckle. Sorry I am a little old world.

[Bugsey34]

My grandmother smacked me when I touched the hot stove. That wasn't violence.

My aunt smacked me for swearing in public when I was in kindergarten. That wasn't violence.

My mother hit me regularly because she felt like it, until I was old enough to hit back. That was violence.

That's the difference.

I don't really see the difference. I was taught to not swear, not touch a hot stove, etc. and no one ever hit me. I just don't see why it's necessary when obviously there are parents who have never hit their children and manage to teach them the same lessons.

[embrassezla]

i think spanking/hitting/whatever is completely primitive and ridiculous. even a 2 year old understands punishment/negative reinforement by being put in a room by themselves for a few minutes with no toys or attention. (or made to sit on a stool or something equivalent if a baby-proof room is not available). i'll never hit my kids, period.

[Morgan81]

If done when merited, hitting a child will be fine for the kid. The "if I act up, I"ll get punished" mentality is quickly installed that way. If I was put in a room by myself, I wouldn't consider that being punished at all. If I had a quick smack upside my head, I would.

[paiger81]

If I was put in a room by myself, I wouldn't consider that being punished at all.

I agree, my parents would try that and you know what I did? I'd read books or write stories. Being sent to my room was not punishment at all.

I've said before & I'll say again, I was spanked in my life, though I only clearly remember being spanked once, and I admit I deserved it, I was being a shit. The idea of punishment is what scared me more than anything, not the actual act of the punishment because, again, it rarely happened.

[HereComes30]

I think the world would be better off if more parents spanked their kids (not abused or beat like others have already articulated)...and even if schools still did it. I see kids every time I go to the store somewhere that need a good spanking. My mom even says it when I am home visiting... "if you would have acted like that in public you would have had a sore rear end!" And my response... "that's why I didn't act like that often!"

[wordsmith]

Hah...totally...send me to my room? MAKE ME READ ALL AFTERNOON? Big punishment.

I had to stand in a corner (precursor to "time out"), never for very long, but the big thing was no books. If I could read, it wasn't punishment.

On the topic of punishment, I don't remember really being spanked, which means it was done only when I was too young for other things to take effect. The only punishment I ever recall as being effective was having privileges taken away. Usually it was for talking back. I found myself suddenly not going to quite a few slumber parties, swimming parties, play dates, go to my grandma's, which I loved, etc. Taking away a privilege was the way to make you think twice about something in my family.

[midtwenty]

As a kid, when my parents would give me a time out or ground me, I'd go EXTRA time just to spite them. I didn't really give a shit as long as I had a book to read or a pen and paper to write or draw.

I was spanked as a child, and I feel it was good for me. It was NOT any sort of routine thing in my home - in fact it probably never happened above 5 or 6 times total, for really big infractions. And my mother NEVER spanked me when she was angry. If she was angry in the moment, she would send me to my room and then come get me later. She would then sit me down and tell me why I was going to be punished and how disappointed she was in me and what she expected from me in the future. Believe me, those talks were FAR worse than the actual spanking. I did get smacked on the hands a few times if I was about to do something dangerous, like touch the hot stove as someone else mentioned earlier. But that isn't punishment, guys. That's doing what you have to do to make sure your child understands the danger of a hot stove and that they are NOT to touch it.

I fully intend to spank my son if I feel he has REALLY gone above and beyond in breaking the rules we set down for him. But honestly, my main method of punishment will probably be those same kind of "talks" that my mom used to have with me. Ooooo I hated it, and hated the idea that I had disappointed her and upset her. I would do almost anything as a kid to avoid The Talk. In fact, I clearly remember once asking her to spank me INSTEAD of talking to me about what I'd done. :lol:

[jrwilheim]

I'm not sure what exactly is meant by "smacking". I can remember a couple of times my mother got so upset witih my behavior she slapped me on the face, kind of without thinking about it. I'm not sure that's abusive if it's not repetitive or done willy-nilly.

I think the other issue is what one does with a very badly behaving child in public. In that kind of a situation your biggest issue is just getting enough immediate compliance out of your child that you can get through whatever you've come out in public to do. Sometimes you have a lot you have to get done, so taking the child immediately home and spanking him, sending him to his room, etc., isn't a feasible option. You can't turn a kid over and spank him right in the middle of the grocery store, so I think in that kind of situation a slap to the cheek might be more appropriate if it will gain compliance.

If "smacking" refers to beating, (i.e, "my father used to smack me around when I was a boy"), then no, I don't think there are any situations that ever justify that.

In general, I do think spanking should be used as a last resort, when other types of punishment have failed to change the child's behavior.

[wordsmith]

That's a good point, mid, and one I meant to make.

Punishment was most effective if it was talked out. If I was disciplined, it was never with the thought that my parents were angry with me or hated me. Them being dissappointed in me or feeling like I let them down was a lot worse than getting a spanking or some other form of discipline. You can't just punish a kid and never address the whys. And you can't leave a kid thinking that you're mad at them or that you hate them because of what they did. "I'm upset by your behavior, but I love YOU," is a VERY important thing to emphasize.

People get very up in the air about spanking. I know kids who were never TOUCHED who grew up f*cked up, because they were treated like screwups and made to feel as if their parents were mad at them or like they were big disappointments...because that was the punishment...psychological abuse. There are far worse ways to hurt your kid, and badly, than a swat on the bottom as a deterrant to negative behavior.

[TheBeve]

From the comedian Rodney Carrington:

good place to whip your kids is walmart too
there's always a little kid getting his ass whipped in there
There must be a little bell that goes off in that damn place
"*DING*"
"WHIP YER KIDS"
You don't whip em, theres someone else that'll whip em for ya
That 'greeter' fella:
"Yo wun me a whoop am? ...I'll whoop a shit outta um."
Kids must be terrified of that damn place.
I think thats where you take em when they screw up:
"Get in the truck, we're goign to walmart."
"Not walmart!"
"I told ya now get your ass in the truck."

[Blythe]

You can't turn a kid over and spank him right in the middle of the grocery store, so I think in that kind of situation a slap to the cheek might be more appropriate if it will gain compliance.Good God! It is NEVER appropriate to slap a child across the face.

I'm really not big on the spanking thing. Not talking about a swat on the behind to a 2 year old, but a full-on spanking. My dad spanked my brother and I, and he also had a lot of anger issues. When I was younger he was always in a bad mood and I lived in constant terror of making him mad. The sound of his heavy footsteps (most times meaning he was mad and coming to yell or worse) made me sick to my stomach. I can one time he picked me up by the collar of my shirt and yelled at me (can't remember what I did), and once he threw me on my bed and held me down and screamed at me because I was carrying the broom downstairs and it hit the wallpaper and some of the paint from the orange broomstick got on the wal (which btw came off with a sponge).

I don't even remember him ever spanking me, but I do remember hearing my little brother SCREAM when he did him. So all of the anger and screaming is all mixed up with the spanking stuff and I don't really want my kids to be afraid like I was. But it is easy to say since I don't have kids. I don't exactly want misbehaving monsters either.

[embrassezla]

not send you to your room, send you to an empty room. hell, a closet even. i'd like to see a 2 year old have fun being punished by reading. read my posts carefully, people!

[paiger81]

not send you to your room, send you to an empty room. hell, a closet even. i'd like to see a 2 year old have fun being punished by reading. read my posts carefully, people!

How many people have empty rooms in their houses? Plus, I was a creative kid, cause my closet was a "cave" that I would play in. And how is locking your kid in a empty room not also considered a form of abuse?

[midtwenty]

not send you to your room, send you to an empty room. hell, a closet even. i'd like to see a 2 year old have fun being punished by reading. read my posts carefully, people!

Good luck finding an empty room in your house. And IMO, putting your kid in a closet is worse than a stern talking-to and a couple of swats on the behind. And for the record, I could read at 3 and loved books before 2, so yes, I had fun with books that young. It's not impossible.

[embrassezla]

Good luck finding an empty room in your house. And IMO, putting your kid in a closet is worse than a stern talking-to and a couple of swats on the behind. And for the record, I could read at 3 and loved books before 2, so yes, I had fun with books that young. It's not impossible.
well a stern talking to is always going to be needed. but again, with the reading thing, you've missed my point entirely. nevermind!

[wordsmith]

I also think that shutting a small child up in a room is more abusive than a swat on the bottom. Ostracism, isolation? Or a sting that hurts in the moment?

[midtwenty]

nevermind!
OK then. Gladly.

[embrassezla]

Ostracism, isolation?
my vote, 100%, when the alternative is hitting.

[paiger81]

my vote, 100%, when the alternative is hitting.


I'm sorry, I'd much rather be the kid who says "Yeah, I got a smack to the bottom" than the kid who is saying "Yeah, my parents locked me in a closet"

[embrassezla]

I'm sorry, I'd much rather be the kid who says "Yeah, I got a smack to the bottom" than the kid who is saying "Yeah, my parents locked me in a closet"
man alive! dont take things so literally. i'm talking about putting the kid in a situation where they aren't doing anything fun or getting any attention. sit them on a stool in the corner of the room, put them in a room with nothing fun in it, etc.

[paiger81]

man alive! dont take things so literally. i'm talking about putting the kid in a situation where they aren't doing anything fun or getting any attention. sit them on a stool in the corner of the room, put them in a room with nothing fun in it, etc.

No, I get your point, what I'm saying is that when I was a kid, no matter where you put me, my imagination was so out there that I could make anything fun. I had imaginary friends that I'd talk to or something.

[embrassezla]

No, I get your point, what I'm saying is that when I was a kid, no matter where you put me, my imagination was so out there that I could make anything fun. I had imaginary friends that I'd talk to or something.
i don't doubt it, and that's pretty cool for a kid to have that quality. but i still think the idea would get across, that you did something bad, and now you should think about it. and even if it doesnt, that stern talking-to is still coming at the end of "the beautiful princess was unlawfully kept in the dungeon by the evil stepmother" :)

[wordsmith]

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree... different people are going to consider different things scarring. To me, being cut from the herd and ignored would have been worse than my ass cheeks stinging for a minute.

[midtwenty]

man alive! dont take things so literally. i'm talking about putting the kid in a situation where they aren't doing anything fun or getting any attention. sit them on a stool in the corner of the room, put them in a room with nothing fun in it, etc.
The thing is, though, sitting a kid on a stool in the corner isn't always the right punishment for what they've done. It depends on the infraction. You have to tailor your responses and punishments to fit the crime, so to speak.

As an analogy, it's similar to how the justice system works: you don't take a murderer and a guy with a couple DUI's and put them both in the corner for a time out as though their crimes are on a level.

Sometimes a stern "NO!" will suffice with kids, just as sometimes (probably most) a timeout is effective, and then other times they might need their little butts swatted. Depends on what they've done.

[embrassezla]

To me, being cut from the herd and ignored would have been worse than my ass cheeks stinging for a minute.
kind of the point of a punishment, isn't it?

but yeah, agree to disagree.

[jrwilheim]

I don't think sending a child to his room, or some other particular place in the house and forcing him to stay there until he is willing to behave properly, is abusive. I know my parents did that to me on a few occasions, and I think I'm a better person for it. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying to a child, "since you can't act properly around other people, you can't BE around other people."

[embrassezla]

The thing is, though, sitting a kid on a stool in the corner isn't always the right punishment for what they've done. It depends on the infraction. You have to tailor your responses and punishments to fit the crime, so to speak.
Absolutely. I doubt anyone is arguing that.

Sometimes a stern "NO!" will suffice with kids, just as sometimes (probably most) a timeout is effective, and then other times they might need their little butts swatted. Depends on what they've done.
This is the very core of my opinion. I do not think, under any circumstances, that it is okay to hit a kid. I think the justification for hitting comes from frustration, anger, and helplessness. This is my opinion, period.

[WeirdBrake]

I totally agree with embrass and Bugsey and the rest of the anti-spanking crowd here. Hitting children is primitive and barbaric. Simple as that. And there is no excuse for it. Ever. It's hard to discipline your kids without hitting? Too bad, find another way. Parents chose to have the kids; they owe it to them to raise them without resorting to violence.

It doesn't matter how noble the intentions of the parent are. If you hit your kids, the message you're sending is, "I'm bigger than you are, and if I don't like what you're doing, I'm going to dominate you with force and pain." Well, that's great when the kid is 4 feet tall and 50 pounds. What about when the kid is an adult, and the lesson he picked up is that the strong get to push around the weak? Seriously, the notion of hitting people to enforce order is something masters did to their slaves. It represents the worst impulses of humanity.

It's entirely possible to raise kids without hitting them. And even if it's not-- even if parents inevitably slip up-- let's at least regard it as a moment of weakness rather than a justified act. I wasn't physically punished much growing up, but my father occasionally slapped me out of frustration. I don't hate him for it, and I still think he's an awesome dad. I have a great relationship with him. But I still think it was wrong when he did that. It's like when any of us get pissed and say nasty, cruel things to our friends in an argument. Doesn't mean that you're evil if you've ever lost it and cursed out a friend in the heat of anger. But it doesn't make it right, either.

[biodork]

My parents would send me to my room usually, and I was a door slammer so they would physically remove my door for awhile as another part of my punishment. That worked, I hated not having my privacy.

[wordsmith]

kind of the point of a punishment, isn't it?

but yeah, agree to disagree.

Worse from a potentially scarring standpoint, I meant. And, no, long-term scarring shouldn't be the point.

[and1grad]

I'm gonna steal a punishment that I used to get from my dad sometimes. He would make me stand in the living room with my arms out like I were making a T, and just hold it. I dont know if any of u have ever done that but after a while, it KILLS. Feel free to steal it. :)

[wordsmith]

I'm sure I'm going to go with the privileges jerked thing, once a kid's old enough to understand the cause-and-effect-ness.

[embrassezla]

My parents would send me to my room usually, and I was a door slammer so they would physically remove my door for awhile as another part of my punishment. That worked, I hated not having my privacy.
haha, that's clever. i remember a time growing up when my little sister couldn't stay in her chair during dinner. she would keep getting up to do something, and my dad was FURIOUS. he took off his belt, and seat-belted her to the chair, in full seriousness. it was hilarious.

[embrassezla]

I'm sure I'm going to go with the privileges jerked thing, once a kid's old enough to understand the cause-and-effect-ness.
ditto.

dfgdfgdfgd

[and1grad]

...they would physically remove my door for awhile as another part of my punishment. That worked, I hated not having my privacy.
I kinda like that. Seems like a lotta work tho.

[biodork]

I kinda like that. Seems like a lotta work tho.
yeah but it was either that or listen to me slam my door 50 times lol

losing my door really pissed me off too so i behaved.

[wordsmith]

I never had a door. That room still doesn't have one.

[pisces2473]

I'm gonna steal a punishment that I used to get from my dad sometimes. He would make me stand in the living room with my arms out like I were making a T, and just hold it. I dont know if any of u have ever done that but after a while, it KILLS. Feel free to steal it. :)
We had to do that in CCD once to see what it felt like for Jesus on the cross. 2nd grade, I believe.

Jess, NO DOOR???

[WeirdBrake]

I'm gonna steal a punishment that I used to get from my dad sometimes. He would make me stand in the living room with my arms out like I were making a T, and just hold it. I dont know if any of u have ever done that but after a while, it KILLS. Feel free to steal it. :)

I try not to make that shape unless I'm dying for people's sins. :p

[WeirdBrake]

We had to do that in CCD once to see what it felt like for Jesus on the cross.

GSTA!!! ;)

[WeirdBrake]

(Great Saviors Think Alike)

[pisces2473]

Gsta????? Huh?

[pisces2473]

OH
sldkjsd;fke'g90

[Blythe]

We had to do that in CCD once to see what it felt like for Jesus on the cross. 2nd grade, I believe.Ok, that's just weird. And I would tend to think Jesus wasn't so much worried about the muscle strain as he was with the nails through his hands/wrists.

[pisces2473]

Ok, that's just weird. And I would tend to think Jesus wasn't so much worried about the muscle strain as he was with the nails through his hands/wrists.
Uhhh yeah...I had a psycho ex-nun as a CCD teacher. Go figure.

[jrwilheim]

Ok, that's just weird. And I would tend to think Jesus wasn't so much worried about the muscle strain as he was with the nails through his hands/wrists.

Not to mention the crown of thorns around his head and dehydration.

[pisces2473]

Not to mention the crown of thorns around his head and dehydration.
Hey, they tried to give him some wine on a sponge!

[wordsmith]

Yup, I grew up in a restored late 1800s-era farmhouse...that's they way it was built. The only room that had a door was the bathroom. The rest of the rooms had archways.

My dad installed a door on my brothers' room when they requested one. It was never a big thing to me...I didn't hang out in my bedroom, really, ever. It wasn't where I played. I mostly only slept there. And I always shared a room, so it was like I equated "bedroom" w/ "privacy."

It might be a factor on why I'm pretty relaxed with personal space/privacy, actually. Come to think of it, between growing up and college roommates, I never had a bedroom I didn't share until I was 20 years old.

[and1grad]

I try not to make that shape unless I'm dying for people's sins. :p
Well...I DID say it KILLS. ;)

[steph78]

I agree with those of you who say a talking-to is a thousand times worse than getting spanked. My mom stayed at home with us kids and my dad is a college professor who, although I love him dearly, tends to talk on and on and on about stuff beyond the point when his audience has lost interest. All my mom had to do when I was bad was say "do I need to tell your father what you did today?" and I'd immediately be like "NO, NO, DON'T TELL DAD! I'LL BE GOOD!" and would be an angel for the rest of the day. I don't ever remember my dad hitting me, not even once - but I was terrified of having him hear that I'd been bad, because the worst punishment of all was to have to sit there and listen to him lecture me for literally half an hour to an hour about how it was really disappointing for him that I had done whatever I had done, and why it was important for me not to behave that way. Oh my gosh, it was excruciating.

My mom, who had the job of staying home with the kids all day, has told me that she did spank me a few times as a child when I was just being pure mischief and she didn't know how else to get through to me...but she said I would LAUGH when she did it and that just made her more frustrated with me so she stopped spanking me and resorted to threatening to tell Dad instead. :)

[TheBeve]

In college I took a class called "Marriage & The Family" and they covered this topic. One thing that stood out in my mind from it all was the concept that spanking was a physical reaction to the parents stress with the situation. Most of the time spanking is the last resort, and also when the parent is fed up with the childs action (or inaction).

[hellboy]

I am old school in this issue. I cant imagine where me and my brother would have ended up without spanking. Maybe in the ghetto selling crack. My Dad took care of discipline and my Mom took care of love. There was a balance.

[The Stranger]

I don't understand how anyone could hit ("spank," whatever) a child, let alone their own child. "I helped create it, it's defenseless, and it depends on me for everything, so I think I'll introduce it to an authoritarian regiment of pain." That's just alien, to me. And if a child is too young to understand reason, god only knows how they'll interpret being hit and then being told that they're still loved.

This taps into the myth that violence solves anything. Now, you may very well get results, with violence, and as adults, we know that it's sometimes necessary as a last resort--but it's going to have all kinds of unintended consequences. (I really do feel like I'm living in a blatantly over-the-top social satire, sometimes. "That child is misbehaving in public, s/he clearly hasn't been physically terrorized enough! Good parents are the ones that turn their children into weak, submissive creatures that fear All-Holy Authority!" In America's case, I think we've done a good job at making people submit out of fear of being punished, but when people have the chance to get away with something, they'll do it, as they were never taught reason.)

My philosophy is really pretty simple: if a civilized society won't let it be done to their prisoners, you probably shouldn't do it to your children.

And I was spanked, for the record. Just a few times. All it taught me is that, if your own parents are willing to hurt you, god only knows what to expect from the people that don't love you. That may very well be one of the reasons why I hate "might makes right"-style thinking, I don't know.

[girlinterrupted]

I was spanked as a child. Not very much because I was a pretty good kid, but I was spanked. I was such a shy kid - sending me to my room wasn't punishment at all. Most of the time I was in there anyway reading my books. My mom always said you have to know your children's currency, and I think there's truth to that. My brother, on the other hand, lived to play outside with his friends, and being sent to his room was the biggest punishment to him. Will I spank my kids? I have no idea. I'd like to think I won't have to, but it just depends.

[capella]

I really think that if some of you anti-spankers had kids or worked with kids you'd be singing a different tune. I swear to golly goodness that sometimes with some kids (and yes, they might be YOUR kids, so don't be one of these "not MY child" parents, those kids are the WORST ones I promise you) nothing is going to get their attention as fast or effectively as a swat on the ass or hand. It is not the end of the world and kids are quite elastic. They aren't going to be forever scarred from a spank on the bottom.

I don't buy the whole spaking is sending an I'm bigger than you and I'm a bully message. Kids don't get the same rights as adults. They're kids. Kids shouldn't get the same rights as adults. They don't know any better and they are in the process of learning how to act and what's appropriate. I am sure if MORE kids had a little fear of their parents and were not being raised with this whole collaboration kind of wishy washy my mom is my friend kind of attitude, we'd have a lot more respectful and well-behaved people in this world.

For the record, I was physically abused, not just spankings, but real honest to goodness abuse. That is not the same as a swat on the butt.

Honestly, how would you deal with a 2 year old who won't stop smacking his baby sister or throws a fit when it's time to go someplace or keeps knocking boxes off the shelf at the grocery store or a 4 year old who won't stop mouthing back snotty comments at you? Don't be so naive to think your kids won't act that way.

[LakeJay]

I was spanked as a child. Not very much because I was a pretty good kid, but I was spanked. I was such a shy kid - sending me to my room wasn't punishment at all. Most of the time I was in there anyway reading my books. My mom always said you have to know your children's currency, and I think there's truth to that. My brother, on the other hand, lived to play outside with his friends, and being sent to his room was the biggest punishment to him. Will I spank my kids? I have no idea. I'd like to think I won't have to, but it just depends.

When it's all said and done, I think I am in same boat. My sisters and I were spanked as kids. Did I have time as a kid to analyze whether it was right or wrong? No...I was busy watching the GI Joe and playing with my Transformers. All I know is that I did a bad thing and if I did not want to get spanked again, I might want to choose a different option if I am faced with the decision.
With that said, will I spank my kids? No clue. I will say that having coached 12, 13, 14 year-olds for the past 8 years as well as being a summer camp counselor in an affluent neighborhood, discipline is a very necessary thing. How one decides to exercise it upon his/her children is up to him/her and their spouse. You just hope the parents do not discipline in an excessive manner whether the punishment is physical, mental, emotional, etc. That's where the results can prove detrimental for all parties involved.

[SmilesSoSweet]

I really don't remember if I was every spanked. I know my brother, sister and I have gotten threatened by our parents and sometimes grandparents with "The Belt" or "The Slipper". But I really don't have any memory of either one being used. We were never grounded either. I never heard my dad or mom tell any of us three to "go to our rooms" or whatever else. I really don't know how they disciplined us. I think most cases we were just afraid to do anything stupid/out of line because of our grandfather. He wasn't a threat to us, but I guess in a way we didn't want to disappoint our grandparents. I'd probably have to speak with my brother and sister about our disciplining as kids, but I really don't remember.

As for when/if I have my own children, I also have no idea what I'd do. I'd have to talk that over carefully with my husband.

[WeirdBrake]

I don't understand how anyone could hit ("spank," whatever) a child, let alone their own child. "I helped create it, it's defenseless, and it depends on me for everything, so I think I'll introduce it to an authoritarian regiment of pain." That's just alien, to me. And if a child is too young to understand reason, god only knows how they'll interpret being hit and then being told that they're still loved.

This taps into the myth that violence solves anything. Now, you may very well get results, with violence, and as adults, we know that it's sometimes necessary as a last resort--but it's going to have all kinds of unintended consequences. (I really do feel like I'm living in a blatantly over-the-top social satire, sometimes. "That child is misbehaving in public, s/he clearly hasn't been physically terrorized enough! Good parents are the ones that turn their children into weak, submissive creatures that fear All-Holy Authority!" In America's case, I think we've done a good job at making people submit out of fear of being punished, but when people have the chance to get away with something, they'll do it, as they were never taught reason.)

My philosophy is really pretty simple: if a civilized society won't let it be done to their prisoners, you probably shouldn't do it to your children.

And I was spanked, for the record. Just a few times. All it taught me is that, if your own parents are willing to hurt you, god only knows what to expect from the people that don't love you. That may very well be one of the reasons why I hate "might makes right"-style thinking, I don't know.

I agree totally with everything you said here.

[WeirdBrake]

I really think that if some of you anti-spankers had kids or worked with kids you'd be singing a different tune.

So on the moral issue of spanking, the opinions of anyone without kids or of anyone who doesn't work with kids are automatically invalidated? Come on... I don't think you want to go that route.

nothing is going to get their attention as fast or effectively as a swat on the ass or hand.

So is that the purpose of discipline? To get the child's attention as fast as possible? That's convenient for the parent. But it has nothing to do with whether it's a good, appropriate, non-harmful discipline technique for the child. One has nothing at all to do with the other.

It is not the end of the world and kids are quite elastic. They aren't going to be forever scarred from a spank on the bottom.

So because one swat may not "scar them for life," you think that makes it ok? I could slap a stranger walking down the street, and it wouldn't scar the person for life. That doesn't make it right.

I don't buy the whole spaking is sending an I'm bigger than you and I'm a bully message. Kids don't get the same rights as adults. They're kids. Kids shouldn't get the same rights as adults.

What about the basic human right of not being hit? We're not talking about driving, voting, and drinking rights. We're talking about a fundamental natural right to personal dignity, which includes not being slapped around by a larger and more powerful person on whom the child is completely dependent. Why shouldn't kids have the same rights as adults in this regard? We no longer allow husbands to hit their wives to "keep them in line." We once did. We once had this notion that women don't have the same rights, and that their rights against personal assault should be lower than those of men. Fortunately, our culture has progessed to a point so that this is no longer acceptable. But we're still stuck on this backward idea that children don't have the same rights against bodily assault as do grown-ups. It's purely our cultural prejudices that make us believe this. Hopefully, we'll progress to a point where hitting kids is not approved.

They don't know any better and they are in the process of learning how to act and what's appropriate.

So we teach them that big people get to hit little people? Nice lesson.

I am sure if MORE kids had a little fear of their parents and were not being raised with this whole collaboration kind of wishy washy my mom is my friend kind of attitude, we'd have a lot more respectful and well-behaved people in this world.

Don't confuse the issues. No one ever said it's good for parents to be overly permissive. We're talking about hitting/spanking as a method of discipline. I tend to think that if you teach kids that the big people get to hit the little people and if you teach them to fear their authority figures and caretakers, then you're teaching them nothing more than how to avoid punishment and not instilling any actual moral compass. Kids eventually grow up and then can't be punished by their caretakers anymore. I don't think it's a good idea for them to have learned that something is wrong if it leads to punishment and not wrong if it doesn't.

Honestly, how would you deal with a 2 year old who won't stop smacking his baby sister or throws a fit when it's time to go someplace or keeps knocking boxes off the shelf at the grocery store or a 4 year old who won't stop mouthing back snotty comments at you?

You do something besides hitting, and you also make sure that a 2 year old is physically separated from his baby sister. I'm not a child-raising expert, so I won't attempt to get into specifics; others could do that better than I could. But I know that hitting kids is wrong. I'm not an airline pilot, either, but I know that flying a plane into a building is wrong. Just sayin'.

Also, if a child is making snotty comments at you, it gives you no right to hit the kid. When are you EVER allowed to hit someone in the adult world for mouthing off to you? That's totally ridiculous to apply physical force to your child in response to purely verbal comments.

For the record, I was physically abused, not just spankings, but real honest to goodness abuse. That is not the same as a swat on the butt.

No one should ever have to go through that. :( And I'm not saying outright physical abuse is on the same level as "mere" spanking/hitting. I know there are different levels of severity. But I still think any hitting of kids is wrong, even if it's not AS wrong as serious beatings.

[RudeGirl]

RG, did you call the police? I would've whipped out my cell and called CYS (I believe that's the PA agency). I am totally not kidding.

No, I didn't. Know why? Those women were big enough to beat the shit out of me and throw me. Selfish? You bet--I regret it. In retrospect, I should have at least told the driver.

...You can imagine what kind of physical and mental shape the kid was in.
:(

[capella]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree then WB. I didn't say your opinion wasn't valid. I said I think if one had more experience with children one might not be so quick to jump on the spanking is always bad bandwagon. And I do think that being overly permissive as a parent is equated with not disciplining them and disciplining sometimes includes a swat on the ass. I'm not talking about tearing off your belt, or using some sort of kitchen utensil and beating them until their skin is red. I'm talking about a quick smack to say cut it out. Sometimes words or other forms of discipline aren't going to do the trick. There are a lot of worse things than smacking your kid on the butt. I personally think emotional and verbal abuse is a lot more damaging than physical violence. That can't even really be proven in a court of law either.

[WeirdBrake]

I still think there are better ways to discipline children besides hitting them. I don't think hitting kids is ever justified. It may be easier for the parent. It may be convenient. But it's never justified.

[lilyflower]

I still think there are better ways to discipline children besides hitting them. I don't think hitting kids is ever justified. It may be easier for the parent. It may be convenient. But it's never justified.

Agreed, WB

RG - You could've called the police after they got off the bus, or after YOU did (if you were first). The poor kid. :(

[and1grad]

I still think there are better ways to discipline children besides hitting them. I don't think hitting kids is ever justified. It may be easier for the parent. It may be convenient. But it's never justified.
Just for clarity's sake, this is your opinion...rather than some universal fact. Right?

[The Stranger]

I said I think if one had more experience with children one might not be so quick to jump on the spanking is always bad bandwagon.

In my own case, I actually have been around kids quite a bit, and I'm thrilled that the phrase "The more I'm around kids, the more I want to hurt them" doesn't apply to me.

[and1grad]

In my own case, I actually have been around kids quite a bit, and I'm thrilled that the phrase "The more I'm around kids, the more I want to hurt them" doesn't apply to me.
I'm not sure you could twist her words any better if her post came with a hand crank.

[WeirdBrake]

Just for clarity's sake, this is your opinion...rather than some universal fact. Right?

Even if I asserted it as a universal fact, it could still be reduced to my opinion, so asking me for clarity on this issue would be a moot point, wouldn't it? ;) (making mental note to send and1 a copy of "How to Avoid Spinning Your Wheels with an Ex Philosophy major" -- with a foreward by Lilyflower).

[lilyflower]

Even if I asserted it as a universal fact, it could still be reduced to my opinion, so asking me for clarity on this issue would be a moot point, wouldn't it? ;) (making mental note to send and1 a copy of "How to Avoid Spinning Your Wheels with an Ex Philosophy major" -- with a foreward by Lilyflower).

Aww, WB, I'm touched ;)

[WeirdBrake]

I'm not sure you could twist her words any better if her post came with a hand crank.

In Stranger's defense, he equates spanking children with hurting them (as do I), so it's not twisting words to rephrase capella's statement as he did.

[meatwad]

Spanking isn't about hurting kids, it's about stopping them from doing something unacceptable or dangerous. Spanking isn't rearing back and hitting the kid as hard as you can, it's about swatting their bottom to get them under control

[lilyflower]

Spanking isn't about hurting kids, it's about stopping them from doing something unacceptable or dangerous. Spanking isn't rearing back and hitting the kid as hard as you can, it's about swatting their bottom to get them under control

And the point others are making is that it's not an ACCEPTABLE means of getting a child under control. Hell, you could theoretically shoot someone to get them "under control" but unless you're in a situation where your life is CLEARLY in danger, it's not an acceptable action.

[and1grad]

Even if I asserted it as a universal fact, it could still be reduced to my opinion, so asking me for clarity on this issue would be a moot point, wouldn't it? ;) (making mental note to send and1 a copy of "How to Avoid Spinning Your Wheels with an Ex Philosophy major" -- with a foreward by Lilyflower).
You can keep that and it was absolutely spinning her words in an absurd way to make a flawed point...whether you agree with it or not.

[WeirdBrake]

Just for clarity's sake, this is your opinion...rather than some universal fact. Right? :p ;)

[and1grad]

Depends on what part of the statement you're talkin about.

[WeirdBrake]

And the point others are making is that it's not an ACCEPTABLE means of getting a child under control. Hell, you could theoretically shoot someone to get them "under control" but unless you're in a situation where your life is CLEARLY in danger, it's not an acceptable action.

Exactly. And we're not even talking about anything dangerous. People on here have said it's ok to hit kids for mouthing off. Well, mouthing off isn't dangerous. It may be annoying. But you don't get the right to hit people just because they annoy you. If that were the case, I'd probably be hitting at least several people a day. LOL

[WeirdBrake]

Depends on what part of the statement you're talkin about.

Nevermind, Jess... oops... um.... and1.

[and1grad]

No prob...lily...oops I mean Weirdbrake.

[WeirdBrake]

See them thugs, it's like they said
Can't mess with WB's Jersey street cred

[lilyflower]

Exactly. And we're not even talking about anything dangerous. People on here have said it's ok to hit kids for mouthing off. Well, mouthing off isn't dangerous. It may be annoying. But you don't get the right to hit people just because they annoy you. If that were the case, I'd probably be hitting at least several people a day. LOL

I wouldn't mind having the license to smack people who annoy me. I can probably start a list in which order I'd smack them if that was the case.

[lilyflower]

No prob...lily...oops I mean Weirdbrake.

Okay, I almost find that insulting :p

[meatwad]

And the point others are making is that it's not an ACCEPTABLE means of getting a child under control. Hell, you could theoretically shoot someone to get them "under control" but unless you're in a situation where your life is CLEARLY in danger, it's not an acceptable action.

It's not acceptable to you.

[WeirdBrake]

It's not acceptable to you.

I'm guessing it's also not acceptable to the child who gets hit.

[meatwad]

I'm guessing it's also not acceptable to the child who gets hit.

There are lots of things kids have to do that are unacceptable to them. They don't get a vote.

[WeirdBrake]

There are lots of things kids have to do that are unacceptable to them. They don't get a vote.

Not too far back in history, you could've said that about women and blacks.

[meatwad]

Not too far back in history, you could've said that about women and blacks.

Wow. You really went there. That's amazing. You're equating black and women's sufferage with a three year old who won't behave.

[WeirdBrake]

Wow. You really went there. That's amazing. You're equating black and women's sufferage with a three year old who won't behave.

I'm equating them only in the sense that your statement "they don't get a vote" is as dismissive of their rights as people were toward the rights of women and blacks in not-so-ancient history. I'm certainly not saying it's exactly the same thing.

But ask yourself why kids don't get a vote? Because they're powerless? Women and blacks were once powerless in American society. That's no argument for why their rights shouldn't be respected. Is it because kids are mentally incapable of deciding for themselves? That's no argument, either. The institutionalized mentally retarded and severely mentally ill are also incapable of deciding for themselves, and we still regard them as having basic human rights that should be respected.

Again, this is not about giving kids equal power as adults. No one here suggested that kids be given the right to vote or drive or drink alcohol or make most of the adult decisions. This is about the basic human right against bodily assault, and I have heard no valid argument so far as to why kids shouldn't be afforded this right.

[meatwad]

Because in every family I've seen it works better than spending three hours in a store trying to explain to a two year old why throwing a can of peas at an old lady is wrong?

"Billy, do you know that what you did was wrong and that it was very hurtful to that other person over there?"

"COOKIE MONSTER!"

[WeirdBrake]

A lot of this stuff could probably be avoided by simply taking better precautions. Wild 2 year old? Don't take him to the store. Absolutely need to take him to the store? Physically prevent him from getting his hands on the merchandise. Again, there's a reason they call it "the Terrible Twos."

[meatwad]

A lot of this stuff could probably be avoided by simply taking better precautions. Wild 2 year old? Don't take him to the store. Absolutely need to take him to the store? Physically prevent him from getting his hands on the merchandise. Again, there's a reason they call it "the Terrible Twos."

Baby straight jacket? That might work.

Look, you don't have to spank your kids. You think it's wrong.

I happen to think it's fine. We both have our opinions and the world keeps turning. :D

[wordsmith]

Yup, my mom had four kids age six and under. She didn't stick us in daycare so she could grocery shop, and my grandmother (only neighbor out in the country) wouldn't keep all of us at once, ever, and would rarely keep even one of us at a time until we got older. So there wasn't any avoiding taking us to the store, and it's hard to keep four small children all in line and from wandering off, running amok, etc. when you are one person. Some people have to just go about their life's day to day operations with their children; "just leave the kid at home" isn't an option.

There are lots of things kids have to do that are unacceptable to them.

Agreed. When I got older, it was unacceptable to me to be told I couldn't go to a school dance as punishment for getting pissed at my dad and telling him to f*ck off. Still meant I didn't get to go to the dance. That's what discipline is.

[tina1979]

Just for the record. I am not an antispanker. I was spanked as a child and I turned out just fine. My parents were never what i would have called abusive. They made sure I understood what I did wrong and whY I was being disiplined that way. And to the one whos mom said to "know your childs currency" My parents were the same way. It didn't hurt me to be grounded and have to stay in my room. It hurt to have to wash dishes everynight for 6 weeks, or to get a spanking. My sister. She thought she would die if she couldn't leave the house and not get a phone call. DIdn't phase her to have to wash dishes.

I won't lie. My daughter has been spanked before. I don't hurt her. Its enough to get her attention. Now, I don't have to. All I have to do is threaten to take away her gameboy or her cd player and she straightens up really quick. She also is at an age where when she starts to throw tantrums I can tell her to go do it in her room, whereas she used to throw herself in the floor kicking and screaming.

The last spanking I gave her was about a month ago maybe longer. The reason? When I took her to her room to explain to her that she had a choice, to eat dinner or go to bed, she started screaming at me and kicked me. Yes, She got a swat on the behind for that one. I don't think that I am a bad parent for doing it either.

[wordsmith]

I don't think so, either, Tina. But I think spanking as discipline is fine and not synonymous with child abuse.

[tina1979]

I don't think so, either, Tina. But I think spanking as discipline is fine and not synonymous with child abuse.
me too word. The problem is though that soo many ppl see it as child abuse that ppl like me are scared to death to swat a child on the behind for hitting another kid in the store, because of those ppl calling DHS or whoever on them.

I am scared to dicipline my own child because someone might misconstrue it as abuse. I think that is just sad.

[embrassezla]

i dont think it's valid to say "i was spanked as a kid and i turned out just fine" in defense of spanking. lots of people smoke their whole lives without getting lung cancer, smoke/drink while pregnant and have healthy babies. that doesn't mean it doesn't do harm - mental or physical.

i've obviously voiced on the side of anti-spanking, but i wouldnt judge someone like you, tina, for thinking it's okay and implementing it with your own child. obviously you don't take things "too far." i just think it's wrong, implicitly, regardless of how well it gets the child to behave.

[tina1979]

i've obviously voiced on the side of anti-spanking, but i wouldnt judge someone like you, tina, for thinking it's okay and implementing it with your own child. obviously you don't take things "too far." i just think it's wrong, implicitly, regardless of how well it gets the child to behave.
Thank you for that.

The whole point of this thread though was spanking as in "discipline" I thought. It seems alot of ppl are saying even in discipline it is abuse.

[wordsmith]

me too word. The problem is though that soo many ppl see it as child abuse that ppl like me are scared to death to swat a child on the behind for hitting another kid in the store, because of those ppl calling DHS or whoever on them.

I am scared to dicipline my own child because someone might misconstrue it as abuse. I think that is just sad.

Well, my mom works with children who often ARE seriously abused and neglected, and since mulitple calls to DCFS don't result in ANY intervention at all (and these are legitimate cases of abuse, too), I'd say you're not at risk for reasonably disciplining your child, even if somebody DOES call. Those agencies follow up on precious little, sadly, that IS needed to be followed up on.

But, yeah, people will still judge you for spanking your kid, obviously, since you're right, there are plenty of posts on here indicating that what one person considers reasonable, nonabusive discipline, others consider to be abuse.

[WeirdBrake]

i dont think it's valid to say "i was spanked as a kid and i turned out just fine" in defense of spanking. lots of people smoke their whole lives without getting lung cancer, smoke/drink while pregnant and have healthy babies. that doesn't mean it doesn't do harm - mental or physical.


Excellent point.

Tina, I don't know if I'd use the phrase "child abuse." That's probably an overly extreme way of putting it. But something can still be wrong even though it's not the worst possible offense of its nature. In the adult world, you can't justify slapping someone by saying, "Well, I didn't beat the crap out of him." All any of us anti-spankers are saying-- embrass, biodork, Lilyflower, Bugsey, myself-- is that there's something inherently wrong about hitting children and that there's no reason kids shouldn't have the same basic rights against bodily assault as grown-ups have.

[tina1979]

Well, my mom works with children who often ARE seriously abused and neglected, and since mulitple calls to DCFS don't result in ANY intervention at all (and these are legitimate cases of abuse, too), I'd say you're not at risk for reasonably disciplining your child, even if somebody DOES call. Those agencies follow up on precious little, sadly, that IS needed to be followed up on.

But, yeah, people will still judge you for spanking your kid, obviously.
Thats true, but maybe they would have more of a chance of following up on things that were truly abuse if there weren't hundreds of calls about someone seeing a mom or dad swat thier kids behind in a grocery store.

[WeirdBrake]

Thats true, but maybe they would have more of a chance of following up on things that were truly abuse if there weren't hundreds of calls about someone seeing a mom or dad swat thier kids behind in a grocery store.

I doubt this happens too often. Our culture is still very much on the side of minding our own business and not getting involved.

[embrassezla]

All any of us anti-spankers are saying-- embrass, biodork, Lilyflower, Bugsey, myself-- is that there's something inherently wrong about hitting children and that there's no reason kids shouldn't have the same basic rights against bodily assault as grown-ups have.
back atcha.

can you imagine what would ensue in a thread titled "Is it right in some circumstances to hit your [adult] mentally-challenged friend?" *cowers in fear*

[meatwad]

There's something inherently wrong with aborting an unborn child too, but that's somehow deemed not as bad as spanking a child.

[WeirdBrake]

There's something inherently wrong with aborting an unborn child too, but that's somehow deemed not as bad as spanking a child.

One hot-button debate at a time! LOL

[meatwad]

One hot-button debate at a time! LOL

Damnit! Eating furry animals I shot with my fully automatic weapons while using aerosol hairspray and then throwing the empy container in the ocean needs to be discussed!!!! :D

[WeirdBrake]

Damnit! Eating furry animals I shot with my fully automatic weapons while using aerosol hairspray and then throwing the empy container in the ocean needs to be discussed!!!! :D

What's to discuss? I call that a fun-filled day! :p

[wordsmith]

Does the aerosol container knock out a baby seal??

[meatwad]

Does the aerosol container knock out a baby seal??

Yes. Many baby seals were harmed in the filming of my scenario.

[Morgan81]

All any of us anti-spankers are saying-- embrass, biodork, Lilyflower, Bugsey, myself-- is that there's something inherently wrong about hitting children and that there's no reason kids shouldn't have the same basic rights against bodily assault as grown-ups have.
Grown-ups are rational. Kids are not, yet.
You have to try to relate to the child in some way to get them to act right, be it denial of toys, locking them in a closet, or a quick backhand upside their head.

[sundaycomics]

You have to try to relate to the child in some way to get them to act right, be it denial of toys, locking them in a closet, or a quick backhand upside their head.

I would argue that any adult who hits a kid is not thinking rationally. As WB has said, in the adult world you can't get away with slapping someone who does something that makes you mad.

Taking away privileges, giving timeouts, etc. doesn't hurt the child and makes more sense. When you think about it, we treat adults who break the law the same way - prison, house arrest, etc.

[wordsmith]

I would argue that any adult who hits a kid is not thinking rationally. As WB has said, in the adult world you can't get away with slapping someone who does something that makes you mad.


This isn't true. You don't have to spank in anger. And actually, resources, etc. that do advocate spanking as discipline agree that you SHOULDN'T spank in anger. When you yourself don't have your emotions in control, the time isn't right for discipline. You don't spank because you're mad. You spank because there's behavior to correct.

[WeirdBrake]

Grown-ups are rational. Kids are not, yet.
You have to try to relate to the child in some way to get them to act right, be it denial of toys, locking them in a closet, or a quick backhand upside their head.

Am I the only one really creeped out by the idea of locking kids in a closet? To do an "opposite paraphrase" of Professor Callahan in Legally Blonde: I think you just lost your case. LOL

[WeirdBrake]

I would argue that any adult who hits a kid is not thinking rationally. As WB has said, in the adult world you can't get away with slapping someone who does something that makes you mad.

Taking away privileges, giving timeouts, etc. doesn't hurt the child and makes more sense. When you think about it, we treat adults who break the law the same way - prison, house arrest, etc.

Exactly! Hitting people because they annoy you is not civilized; it's what bullies do.

[WeirdBrake]

This isn't true. You don't have to spank in anger. And actually, resources, etc. that do advocate spanking as discipline agree that you SHOULDN'T spank in anger. When you yourself don't have your emotions in control, the time isn't right for discipline. You don't spank because you're mad. You spank because there's behavior to correct.

I think it's even creepier to "wait until you're calm" to spank. It makes it even more deliberate and calculated.

[wordsmith]

Not at all...discipline should be done in a calm, matter of fact manner. You're not venting your rage.

[WeirdBrake]

Not at all...discipline should be done in a calm, matter of fact manner. You're not venting your rage.

What you call "discipline" I call wrongful assault. And I think doing that in a cool-headed, deliberately way is worse than doing it in anger.

[wordsmith]

Like I said to Tina earlier, what one parent considers reasonable, nonabusive discipline is another's child abuse. *shrug* I still have no problem whatsoever with spanking.

[WeirdBrake]

Like I said to Tina earlier, what one parent considers reasonable, nonabusive discipline is another's child abuse. *shrug* I still have no problem whatsoever with spanking.

I'm guessing that anyone-- man, woman, or child-- being hit has a problem with being hit.

[wordsmith]

I got spanked and have no problem with spanking.

[WeirdBrake]

I got spanked and have no problem with spanking.

I'm guessing you had a problem with it at the time it was taking place.

[wordsmith]

Probably; since I was little, I don't really remember. But I do know that I had a big problem with not being allowed to go to a school dance as punishment for bitching my dad out, or getting driving privileges revoked for not coming home when I was supposed to, also both age-appropriate discipline as well...that's kind of the way it goes with disclipline. The whole idea is that it's a deterrant from future behavior.

[WeirdBrake]

Call me a radical; I just think bodily assault is a "discipline" that no one should get.

[wordsmith]

I don't think you're radical, I just don't share your opinion.

[Morgan81]

Am I the only one really creeped out by the idea of locking kids in a closet? To do an "opposite paraphrase" of Professor Callahan in Legally Blonde: I think you just lost your case. LOL
I was quoting...
not send you to your room, send you to an empty room. hell, a closet even. i'd like to see a 2 year old have fun being punished by reading. read my posts carefully, people!

[meatwad]

Call me a radical; I just think bodily assault is a "discipline" that no one should get.

We get it. Don't spank your kids then. :)

[SunDevil]

I think this has been a pretty good topic. I didn't think it was going to get this many posts through.

I voted for, only in extreme situations. And by that I mean if they are hurting another person or doing something that might cause great harm to them. It can be done right, or it can be done wrong. And, there should be an age limit of around 3 when it stops and other punishment is used.

But, there also has to be a discussion, and the parent has to understand that either the kid didn't know any better or that they feel they aren't getting enough attention. Or they are testing the boundaries of what they can get away with.

In Basic Training, the drill sergeants can't touch you, but they can yell at you and verbally abuse them. Prisoners get locked up for 23 hours a day in a room, but they only get touched by other inmates. Military Detainees aren't supposed to get abused*.

On the other hand, kids need to understand that the real world isn't always nice. Sometimes you have to fight. You don't want your kid to be taken advantage of. But, the same thing can happen to kids that are abused or have no role in their family.

The tough thing is, how do you raise kids without resorting to violence, intimidation, shame, and fear based tactics? Is it possible?

*Doesn't always apply.

[wordsmith]

Yup, I was way more wounded by "You've disappointed me" than anything else, myself. Still am.

[embrassezla]

I was quoting...
not send you to your room, send you to an empty room. hell, a closet even. i'd like to see a 2 year old have fun being punished by reading. read my posts carefully, people!


Once again, I never suggested locking a child in a closet. I was saying send them to sit by themselves, be it in an empty room (not a place where they can play with toys, etc), a closet (with the door open and in plain sight of other people..I only included this because of the numerous "good luck having an empty room in your house" comments), or on a stool in the corner, even. The point being, give them some time without attention or toys as punishment. A "time out", if you will.

[WeirdBrake]

Well, I don't think it's possible. It's definitely possible for some to get by without spanking a child. I don't see how it's possible to get by without intimidation, shame and fear, which I see as interconnected.

IMO, kids need to know who's boss. This is where intimidation comes in. You bet I was intimidated by my parents (mostly my dad) as a kid. How do you think they kept me well-behaved? I didn't want to get in trouble for acting out in public (and I knew I would if I did), so I behaved myself.

Sometimes kids do things that they ought to feel ashamed about. I know I did, and my parents dealt with it. They didn't publicly humiliate me and warp me for life, but when I did something to be ashamed of, I definitely had to try and make it right. Sometimes apologies were enough. Sometimes written apologies were enough. Sometimes I had to write sentences (I will not...). Sometimes essays, and my parents have been known to assign research papers.

As to fear. This goes back to the talk of a particular child's "currency." The threat of losing respect, trust or approval is sometimes enough, depending on the kid. I'm here to say that the worst possible thing for me was hearing the "I am so disappointed in you" speech. Nothing reduced me to a sobbing puddle faster than that. Sometimes fear of losing money--my parents used a system of docking allowance for certain infractions (talking back, etc.).

All of this being said, positive reinforcement of good behavior should also come into play. A disciplinary system based solely on negative consequences is not very well thought out.

Not to pick on you personally, WIP, but this post totally creeps me out. All this talk of intimidating and dominating children. It stinks of a master-slave or dictator-subject mindset. No one forces anyone to have children. I personally wouldn't have children, mostly because I wouldn't want to bring them into a world as screwed up as this one. But if you choose to have children, I think you owe it to them to raise them with love and kindness and to respect their human dignity. People who honestly don't believe it's possible to raise children without treating them like subjects or slaves that need to be controlled simply shouldn't have children, in my opinion.

Children don't ask to be born. They didn't ask to be put in this situation to begin with. I'm, quite frankly, repulsed by this enthusiastic talk of "showing kids who's boss" as though they are a bunch of wild inmates and saying outright that you need to shame, scare, and intimidate them into submission. It strikes me more as a bad faith power trip than any truly loving way to discipline them appropriately.

This being said, I think embrass has a good idea. Withdrawing a positive, or a "time-out," is probably far more effective and appropriate than inflicting a negative. And it's more respectful of the child's personal dignity. In any case, I think it's not only important to have the proper punishments but also the proper mindset behind the punishment. If your mindset is that your child is a savage that needs to be controlled, then I don't consider that a very loving way to approach child-raising, regardless of how appropriate the actual punishments are.

[meatwad]

But you are teaching them who's boss. The parents are the boss. That's how it works. When children are born they have no concept of rules or civilization. They are completely innocent and don't know what right and wrong mean.

[WeirdBrake]

But you are teaching them who's boss. The parents are the boss. That's how it works. When children are born they have no concept of rules or civilization. They are completely innocent and don't know what right and wrong mean.

But there are good faith and bad faith ways to teach kids to respect authority. I tend to think a lot of parents go on power trips, and to me, that's in bad faith.

[and1grad]

But there are good faith and bad faith ways to teach kids to respect authority. I tend to think a lot of parents go on power trips, and to me, that's in bad faith.
LOL! You're an atheist. Stop it with the faith junk. :lol: :lol:

[WorkInProgress]

Not to pick on you personally, WIP, but this post totally creeps me out. All this talk of intimidating and dominating children. It stinks of a master-slave or dictator-subject mindset. No one forces anyone to have children. I personally wouldn't have children, mostly because I wouldn't want to bring them into a world as screwed up as this one. But if you choose to have children, I think you owe it to them to raise them with love and kindness and to respect their human dignity. People who honestly don't believe it's possible to raise children without treating them like subjects or slaves that need to be controlled simply shouldn't have children, in my opinion.

Children don't ask to be born. They didn't ask to be put in this situation to begin with. I'm, quite frankly, repulsed by this enthusiastic talk of "showing kids who's boss" as though they are a bunch of wild inmates and saying outright that you need to shame, scare, and intimidate them into submission. It strikes me more as a bad faith power trip than any truly loving way to discipline them appropriately.

This being said, I think embrass has a good idea. Withdrawing a positive, or a "time-out," is probably far more effective and appropriate than inflicting a negative. And it's more respectful of the child's personal dignity. In any case, I think it's not only important to have the proper punishments but also the proper mindset behind the punishment. If your mindset is that your child is a savage that needs to be controlled, then I don't consider that a very loving way to approach child-raising, regardless of how appropriate the actual punishments are.

I don't feel picked on, so no worries. It is creepy to think about how those terms (could) apply to child-rearing. It's certainly not a joyful thing to contemplate.

Neither you nor I were discussing causing humiliation to or instilling a deep-seated fear in children. I don't think that we are all that far apart in our ideas in using positive reinforcement of good behavior and negative consequences (removal of a positive).

I think you read my post, found the admittedly ugly keywords (in response to someone else's post asking about their use), and reacted to those terms, and not the translation of those words into what I think are decent techniques for dealing with kids' misbehavior.

"Showing a kid who's boss" might (and most often for me, as a kid, was) be withdrawing a positive, or setting a time-out, demonstrating to the child that you are in charge and he/she is not. Using fear also plays into that--fear of losing something positive (my previous examples: trust of a parent, money from allowance).

I do not see how making a kid apologize for his wrong (sometimes cruel) actions, and rectify the situation (if possible) is wrong, unloving or objectionable. I think a person/child should be ashamed of certain behaviors, like lying, stealing, and cruelty, among other things. (There are LOTS of things a kid should not be made to feel ashamed for, and I am absolutely not advocating that, or humiliating children/people for fun.) As an example of what I mean: once, as a kid, I was really, really rotten and unnecessarily cruel to this other kid, and my parents found out. My parents sat down with me and talked with me about how this was wrong, hurtful, cruel, etc., and how disappointed they were in me that I could do something that mean, and I had to apologize to this little boy. I'm sure there were other things I had to do for punishment, but I can't recall what, specifically.

I am sorry that you feel the way you do about my post. From your reaction, I would have imagined myself to be an off-my-rocker, child-abusing horror of a human being.

[embrassezla]

in elementary school, we had these reading comprehension thingies that we could do in our spare time, on our own, and record our progress and at the end of a set time, the student who completed the most would win a prize. i was the smart girl in my class, and the smart boy and i were competing. eventually i started cheating so that i could beat him. i felt guilty and told my parents, and they made me confess to my teacher and the whole class found out. that was a lesson in shame that definitely got through.

that's different than teaching your kid shame by smacking him after he does something wrong, of course.

[meatwad]

in elementary school, we had these reading comprehension thingies that we could do in our spare time, on our own, and record our progress and at the end of a set time, the student who completed the most would win a prize. i was the smart girl in my class, and the smart boy and i were competing. eventually i started cheating so that i could beat him. i felt guilty and told my parents, and they made me confess to my teacher and the whole class found out. that was a lesson in shame that definitely got through.

that's different than teaching your kid shame by smacking him after he does something wrong, of course.

But you were old enough to understand right and wrong, therefore to old for spanking to even be necessary.

[WeirdBrake]

WIP, it's possible I misinterpreted your thoughts on this and reacted more to the buzzwords in your posts, as you said. I guess I was making a more general point about how different parental mindsets can be good or bad. But it's possible that your mindset is really ok and that I misinterpreted it.

[embrassezla]

But you were old enough to understand right and wrong, therefore to old for spanking to even be necessary.
i think a 2 year old understands that there is something "wrong" when he gets spanked, the same way a 2 year old would understand that there is something "wrong" when his parents take away his toys/give him a time out. we're talking about implementation, not understanding.

[meatwad]

i think a 2 year old understands that there is something "wrong" when he gets spanked, the same way a 2 year old would understand that there is something "wrong" when his parents take away his toys/give him a time out. we're talking about implementation, not understanding.

Here is an example. My friend doesn't spank his kids unless he feels it's absolutely necessary, same as me. His son was being bad and not doing as he was told. My friend asked him if he wanted a timeout to which the child replied, "NO! Don't like you!" My friend put him in a chair in his room facing the wall and told him, "Time Out. Don't get up until I come back!" The child got up and ran out of the room screaming, "DON'T WANT TIMEOUT!!!" He put him back again and the child again got up. He put him back a third time and said, "Get up again and I'll spank you." The child got up so he spanked him and put him back in the chair. He stayed in the chair until my friend came in to get him about two or three minutes later.

[WorkInProgress]

WIP, it's possible I misinterpreted your thoughts on this and reacted more to the buzzwords in your posts, as you said. I guess I was making a more general point about how different parental mindsets can be good or bad.

Thanks. I agree with you about different parental mindsets, by the way, and it is a good point.

[embrassezla]

Here is an example. My friend doesn't spank his kids unless he feels it's absolutely necessary, same as me. His son was being bad and not doing as he was told. My friend asked him if he wanted a timeout to which the child replied, "NO! Don't like you!" My friend put him in a chair in his room facing the wall and told him, "Time Out. Don't get up until I come back!" The child got up and ran out of the room screaming, "DON'T WANT TIMEOUT!!!" He put him back again and the child again got up. He put him back a third time and said, "Get up again and I'll spank you." The child got up so he spanked him and put him back in the chair. He stayed in the chair until my friend came in to get him about two or three minutes later.
i don't question that spanking a kid can get him to quit misbehaving. what i question is the moral implication of using that tactic. if a kid tries to stick his finger in a socket, and he won't stop, the quickest/most effective way to get him to stop is to chop his fingers off, isn't it? does that mean it's okay to do that to a kid?*


*example meant to illustrate the difference between questioning the effectiveness of spanking, and it's acceptability in a civilized society. i am not making the case that spanking is tantamount to the kind of extreme violence involved in chopping a kids finger off, just so there's no confusion.

[meatwad]

i don't question that spanking a kid can get him to quit misbehaving. what i question is the moral implication of using that tactic. if a kid tries to stick his finger in a socket, and he won't stop, the quickest/most effective way to get him to stop is to chop his fingers off, isn't it? does that mean it's okay to do that to a kid?*


*example meant to illustrate the difference between questioning the effectiveness of spanking, and it's acceptability in a civilized society. i am not making the case that spanking is tantamount to the kind of extreme violence involved in chopping a kids finger off, just so there's no confusion.

Won't depriving him of something he wants, or putting him alone in a room cause him mental anguish? Isn't that wrong too? In fact, isn't all punishment going to have a negative short term effect on him?

[tdko]

I don't think violence is called for when disciplining a child.

I've heard some people say that when kids have acheived mobility but not effective speech, a one-shot spank is necessary to communicate a negative association with a dangerous activity (e.g., running into the street). That is, if a toddler's running into the street, you grab the kid and give him or her a light spank.

Yeah, yeah, I know, any parent who lets their kids run into the street is horrible and should be put in jail yadda yadda yadda, but look: things happen sometimes, and if you can't explain the danger, you need to get it across somehow.

For any other situation, though, parents beating kids just shows that big people are allowed to inflict violence on weaker people. What a great message.

I think WIP had a great point: shame and fear does have a place in a discipline structure. What makes the difference is what you are shaming a kid for. Reminds me of a Family Guy segment, where Peter goes to buy a toilet training guide. The clerk hands him "Everybody Poops" and Peter replies, "We're Catholic." The salesman replies, "Oh, well, then you'll want 'You're a naughty, naughty boy, and that's concentrated evil coming out the back of you.'"

Kids have to know who the parent is. They need structure, boundaries, and rules. I have a pair of young cousins whose parents offer practically no boundaries. They're little shits who run wild, and everyone in the family groans when they come to holiday parties.

Some of my teenagers treat their parents like crap. You know what's amazing? All they did was model their parents' behavior. Respect certainly goes both ways, but if you're offering it you need to enforce it. Sometimes that means punishments are in order.

[embrassezla]

Won't depriving him of something he wants, or putting him alone in a room cause him mental anguish? Isn't that wrong too? In fact, isn't all punishment going to have a negative short term effect on him?
that's still not what i'm getting at. we are a civilized society, we aren't apes jumping around a monolith in the desert. i dont like the idea that spanking is along the same vein as teaching someone that it is only alright to resort to violence if you can't get someone to do what you want them to do.

if you have a situation where a kid won't respond to time outs, being left alone, and is prone to tantrums, how is inflicting physical pain to resolve the situation a good idea in terms of long-term behavior?

[and1grad]

if you have a situation where a kid won't respond to time outs, being left alone, and is prone to tantrums, how is inflicting physical pain to resolve the situation a good idea in terms of long-term behavior?
Well, the simple answer is because pain sends a clear and often long-lasting message. Its the same reason why you dont do things that you know will hurt. You dont touch hot stoves b/c at some point, you've burned yourself and it hurt.

[embrassezla]

Well, the simple answer is because pain sends a clear and often long-lasting message. Its the same reason why you dont do things that you know will hurt. You dont touch hot stoves b/c at some point, you've burned yourself and it hurt.
once again, you should do something because it works, regardless of what the method is? i'm tired of my boss coming in and making small talk with me. maybe i'll start slamming the door in his face - i bet that message will be clear and long-lasting.

[and1grad]

once again, you should do something because it works, regardless of what the method is? i'm tired of my boss coming in and making small talk with me. maybe i'll start slamming the door in his face - i bet that message will be clear and long-lasting.
With the end result being that you get fired. Is that your definition of something that would "work" for you?

[meatwad]

that's still not what i'm getting at. we are a civilized society, we aren't apes jumping around a monolith in the desert. i dont like the idea that spanking is along the same vein as teaching someone that it is only alright to resort to violence if you can't get someone to do what you want them to do.

if you have a situation where a kid won't respond to time outs, being left alone, and is prone to tantrums, how is inflicting physical pain to resolve the situation a good idea in terms of long-term behavior?

Because negotiations have broken down and it's time to end the situation.

[embrassezla]

With the end result being that you get fired. Is that your definition of something that would "work" for you?
so you know precisely how being spanked affects a child's psyche? specifically, that it doesn't, at least in the long-term?

[meatwad]

so you know precisely how being spanked affects a child's psyche? specifically, that it doesn't, at least in the long-term?

I would think letting the child get what they want would be just as harmful if not worse in the long term.

[embrassezla]

I would think letting the child get what they want would be just as harmful if not worse in the long term.
i don't think anyone has suggested letting a kid get what they want if a tantrum occurs.

[and1grad]

so you know precisely how being spanked affects a child's psyche? specifically, that it doesn't, at least in the long-term?
What are you looking for? Meaningless studies or personal experience? I've yet to come across someone who's ever come across someone thats said being spanked cause someone to become a bad person. Of course, there's a good number of us that are able to tell the difference b/w a deserved spanking and obvious child abuse. Clearly, not everyone can do the same.

[embrassezla]

I've yet to come across someone who's ever come across someone thats said being spanked cause someone to become a bad person.
if it's not clear why this argument is entirely flawed, go back a couple pages where i addressed this to another poster.

[meatwad]

i don't think anyone has suggested letting a kid get what they want if a tantrum occurs.

Then how do you stop the tantrum?

[and1grad]

The argument isnt flawed. Its actually common sense. Might be foreign to some.

[embrassezla]

Of course, there's a good number of us that are able to tell the difference b/w a deserved spanking and obvious child abuse. Clearly, not everyone can do the same.
i've already responded to this as well, but let me clarify again. i'm not of the opinion that spanking in situations like those i've just been discussing with meatwad are child abuse. if a kid ran into traffic and his parent grabbed him and spanked him, i wouldn't be calling child protective services. i'm asserting that the urge we have as humans to resort to violence (even mild, like spanking) when we are frustrated/out of ideas/etc, is a barbaric and unnecessary one in a civilized society.

[embrassezla]

The argument isnt flawed. Its actually common sense. Might be foreign to some.
you're right. my boyfriend's father smoked for 30 years, and never got lung cancer. therefore, smoking does not cause lung cancer.

you'd make a poor mathematician, if you think arguments like that are valid :)

[meatwad]

i've already responded to this as well, but let me clarify again. i'm not of the opinion that spanking in situations like those i've just been discussing with meatwad are child abuse. if a kid ran into traffic and his parent grabbed him and spanked him, i wouldn't be calling child protective services. i'm asserting that the urge we have as humans to resort to violence (even mild, like spanking) when we are frustrated/out of ideas/etc, is a barbaric and unnecessary one in a civilized society.

You mean physical violence, since violence in and of itself doesn't necessarily have to be physical.

[and1grad]

you're right. my boyfriend's father smoked for 30 years, and never got lung cancer. therefore, smoking does not cause lung cancer.

you'd make a poor mathematician, if you think arguments like that are valid :)
So I bring up that nobody I've known has ever had that happen and you bring up this one person as your comparison and accuse me of not knowing math? If this is the way you choose to argue, its a wonder that you feel like you have a chance of convincing anyone of anything.

[girlinterrupted]

I have already mentioned on this thread that I was spanked as a child. It had no long term effect on me, and looking back I know my mother did it because she needed to teach me a lesson because she loved me and wanted me to grow up to be the best possible version of myself.

Is this true of everyone who was spanked? Of course not. But there's a big difference between outright physical abuse and spanking, which has already been mentioned on this thread. I think the intention of what's behind the discipline is the most important thing. When any child is being disciplined (spanked, time outs, etc.), they are going to think that their parents are the worst people on earth, and they're not going to understand the long term implications of it. And, from what I can gather from talking to my parents and listening to other people who have children, you (as the parent) are going to feel like the worst person on earth while you're inflicting the discipline, whatever it may be.

[embrassezla]

So I bring up that nobody I've known has ever had that happen and you bring up this one person as your comparison and accuse me of not knowing math? If this is the way you choose to argue, its a wonder that you feel like you have a chance of convincing anyone of anything.
nevermind, i mentioned mathematics because you used multiple instances to try to prove a rule, which is a major no-no. if you took that the wrong way and became offended, i apologize. maybe that's why you got personal in the end, so i'll assume so, and overlook it.

[embrassezla]

If this is the way you choose to argue, its a wonder that you feel like you have a chance of convincing anyone of anything.
Oh, and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I was trying to get my opinion across clearly. I think most (if not all) of my posts on this thread today have been clarifying my opinion.

[WeirdBrake]

So I bring up that nobody I've known has ever had that happen and you bring up this one person as your comparison and accuse me of not knowing math? If this is the way you choose to argue, its a wonder that you feel like you have a chance of convincing anyone of anything.

Come on, and1. I don't think this is a fair statement. You misinterpreted her post by implying that she thought spanking is equivalent to severe child abuse. Then you implied that the sample group of "everyone you've known" is enough to refute any causational link between a behavior and a harm. She argued against this by making a proper analogy with her bf's father, even though her group was limited to one instead of many. Her analogy was about the inability of an unrepresenative sample group to refute such a link, whether it's an unrepresentative sample group of one or an unrepresentative sample group of many. Unrepresentative is unrepresentative, and this was the clear point of her analogy. You're splitting hairs over the fact that she's only talking about one person, and you're missing her point.

[and1grad]

nevermind, i mentioned mathematics because you used multiple instances to try to prove a rule, which is a major no-no. if you took that the wrong way and became offended, i apologize. maybe that's why you got personal in the end, so i'll assume so, and overlook it.
Please. I intended to prove no rule. No ifs, no thens, no Q.E.D. If you feel like questioning my intelligence, feel free. I have no qualms with proving you wrong. I dont overlook.

[WeirdBrake]

nevermind, i mentioned mathematics because you used multiple instances to try to prove a rule, which is a major no-no. if you took that the wrong way and became offended, i apologize. maybe that's why you got personal in the end, so i'll assume so, and overlook it.

You must've posted this before I finished writing mine. But yeah, this is what I was saying. You said it in fewer words. :p

[WeirdBrake]

Please. I intended to prove no rule. No ifs, no thens, no Q.E.D. If you feel like questioning my intelligence, feel free. I have no qualms with proving you wrong. I dont overlook.

I don't see anyone questioning your intelligence.

[embrassezla]

sorry again for the confusion, and1. us mathematicians arent good communicators :). i was just ribbing you with that comment to lighten the mood, anyway. GREAT JOB that did, huh? :D :D

[embrassezla]

If you feel like questioning my intelligence, feel free.
I don't! You made this very personal all of a sudden, and that was not my intent at all.

[and1grad]

Come on, and1. I don't think this is a fair statement. You misinterpreted her post by implying that she thought spanking is equivalent to severe child abuse. Then you implied that the sample group of "everyone you've known" is enough to refute any causational link between a behavior and a harm. She argued against this by making a proper analogy with her bf's father, even though her group was limited to one instead of many. Her analogy was about the inability of an unrepresenative sample group to refute such a link, whether it's an unrepresentative sample group of one or an unrepresentative sample group of many. Unrepresentative is unrepresentative, and this was the clear point of her analogy. You're splitting hairs over the fact that she's only talking about one person, and you're missing her point.
First off, I didnt miss anyone's point. I used her math insult against her. Dont make the mistake of thinking I have anywhere near a hard time understanding anyone's post. Thats NEVER been the case and I somehow doubt it ever will be. This conversation is far from complicated. I will NEVER need a post explained to me.

Secondly, i didnt offer up my example as some kind of psychological study to be submitted to some journal. That would be meaningless. EVERYTHING is a sample and anyone's sample can be considered small. Where's the examples of people who have said that spanking turned them into a monster? Why ask for proof on my end and not offer any on yours?

[meatwad]

I think we've all made our points, so I'm not sure what we're arguing about at this point. Some people choose not to spank their children and some choose to if they deem it necessary. At this point we're pretty much just arguing for the sake of arguing I think.

[and1grad]

you'd make a poor mathematician, if you think arguments like that are valid :)
Sorry I'll make sure to put this on my christmas card next year then.

[WeirdBrake]

First off, I didnt miss anyone's point. I used her math insult against her. Dont make the mistake of thinking I have anywhere near a hard time understanding anyone's post. Thats NEVER been the case and I somehow doubt it ever will be. This conversation is far from complicated. I will NEVER need a post explained to me.

Secondly, i didnt offer up my example as some kind of psychological study to be submitted to some journal. That would be meaningless. EVERYTHING is a sample and anyone's sample can be considered small. Where's the examples of people who have said that spanking turned them into a monster? Why ask for proof on my end and not offer any on yours?

You misinterpreted her post by implying that she said spanking = severe child abuse. She never said that or even implied it. All she said was spanking is wrong. Something can be wrong without being severe child abuse. So you misread her post.

Additionally, you may not have formally, explicitly stated that you were intending to prove any rule, but you strongly implied it by saying you never knew anyone on whom spanking had a bad effect. To the reasonable reader, this DOES imply in this context that you're basically saying, "I've never seen spanking cause harm. Therefore, it doesn't cause harm." That's what you were implying.

[and1grad]

You could say that I implied that squirrels fuck more in redwoods than they do in oak. Doesnt make a difference. And you've gotta be kidding me on the physical abuse part of this "equation."

I do not think, under any circumstances, that it is okay to hit a kid. I think the justification for hitting comes from frustration, anger, and helplessness.

Is this implicit or explicit?

[wordsmith]

I think we've all made our points, so I'm not sure what we're arguing about at this point. Some people choose not to spank their children and some choose to if they deem it necessary. At this point we're pretty much just arguing for the sake of arguing I think.

Totally. Nobody's winning anybody over, here. I'd venture to say that not a single person changed the perspective they joined the thread with, nobody "saw the light," etc.

People who don't plan on spanking their children aren't morons for not spanking their children. People who do plan on spanking their children aren't vicious child abusers for doing so.

[WeirdBrake]

I've made my points as much as I could. Let everyone interpret them as they will. I'm now bowing out of this discussion.

[meatwad]

Totally. Nobody's winning anybody over, here. I'd venture to say that not a single person changed the perspective they joined the thread with, nobody "saw the light," etc.

People who don't plan on spanking their children aren't morons for not spanking their children. People who do plan on spanking their children aren't vicious child abusers for doing so.

Exactly. And even beyond that it's not like "plan" on doing it. When I think of the things I'd like to do when I have kids someday, I don't sit around and think, "Oh boy! It's gonna be so cool when Lil' Beefy mouths off to me and I get to swat his bottom!"

[SunDevil]

Here is an example. My friend doesn't spank his kids unless he feels it's absolutely necessary, same as me. His son was being bad and not doing as he was told. My friend asked him if he wanted a timeout to which the child replied, "NO! Don't like you!" My friend put him in a chair in his room facing the wall and told him, "Time Out. Don't get up until I come back!" The child got up and ran out of the room screaming, "DON'T WANT TIMEOUT!!!" He put him back again and the child again got up. He put him back a third time and said, "Get up again and I'll spank you." The child got up so he spanked him and put him back in the chair. He stayed in the chair until my friend came in to get him about two or three minutes later.


Then how do you stop the tantrum?

I have no idea about parenting, but this is the type of situation where it should have never gotten to the point of spanking. This is normal behavior, and if not done when guests are over or out in public, you have more options.

I'm not saying these are right, but might work. I have no idea.

1. Let it play out. Don't show any reaction at all. Earplugs might be beneficial. If this happens too much, there might be a problem.

1.5. Put them in a room all by themselves, where they can't break anything or throw clothes all over the place. Let them calm down for a few minutes.

2.Convince them that if they do this, they get a reward. Maybe it is money or any food item they want next type they go to the grocery store. Might not be the best either. They might make a fuss just to get stuff. It would make grocery shopping easier because they get to make decisions for a few items. Then they won't be like 'I want this, I want that, and this...'

3.Help them do the chore. It might not be the optimal solution either, but if it doesn't get down, and they see the consequences.

4.Ask them what they would do in order to get the task done. And not doing it isn't an option. Maybe they would have to pay money to get another member of the family to do it.

5. Take away toys or privileges. Maybe turn off the TV or DVDs for a while.

6. Throw a tantrum yourself. Loudly babble incoherently. If I remember, this happened between my sister and I when we were young. Like if one of us was playing with a toy, the other would start saying stuff like 'I want it', 'It's mine', and the response 'I was playing with it first' or 'Mommy' comes up often.

7. Get some ice cream for yourself, but tell the kid, maybe if you behaved you could get some reward next time. Again with the bribing, not sure if that is good in the long run.

8. Go on the Internet, search for 'toddler throwing tantrum, what do I do' and pick whatever the Internet tells you to do. :)

9. Have a dog that you beat on in front of them whenever the dog does something wrong. They will get the idea and won't try anything. :eek: I had to put it out there. Don't do this. I'm just rambling at this point.

10. They wouldn't happen to make locking car seats. Strap'em in for a while.
:twisted: Wrong, and might get you in a little trouble with the law I hear...

11. Get a prescription for Ritalin and sleeping pills. :eek: What's scarier is that this is really common.

The thing about spanking is, everyone who got it done to them remembers it well into adulthood. What problems are caused by this? Some kids need to be spanked though, while others need to have alternative punishments dealt. Sometimes if you control and dominate your kids too much, they will rebel and not be what you wanted later in life.

[meatwad]

I went over your list with a friend of mine who has kids, just out of curiousity. Here's what I got from him.

1. Let it play out. Don't show any reaction at all. Earplugs might be beneficial. If this happens too much, there might be a problem.
Sometimes tantrums can last for hours, and you don't have the luxury of waiting them out.

1.5. Put them in a room all by themselves, where they can't break anything or throw clothes all over the place. Let them calm down for a few minutes.
You'd have to lock the door and any room you put them in is going to get trashed. You don't even want to know what happens when you tell them to clean it up.

2.Convince them that if they do this, they get a reward. Maybe it is money or any food item they want next type they go to the grocery store. Might not be the best either. They might make a fuss just to get stuff. It would make grocery shopping easier because they get to make decisions for a few items. Then they won't be like 'I want this, I want that, and this...'
You never reward your kids as part of a punishment. He basically said for the same reason you did.

3.Help them do the chore. It might not be the optimal solution either, but if it doesn't get down, and they see the consequences.
He said he's not going to get the kids in the habit of getting help when they don't need it because he doesn't think they'll ever really learn to do anything on their own that way. From my own experience growing up I agree with him 100% on this one.

4.Ask them what they would do in order to get the task done. And not doing it isn't an option. Maybe they would have to pay money to get another member of the family to do it.
He only spanks the little one (again, only if he feels he has too.) so there isn't any money involved. When he's bad enough to warrant one, it's because explaining things isn't getting anywhere.

5. Take away toys or privileges. Maybe turn off the TV or DVDs for a while.
This works a lot and is the usual punishment. But sometimes kids just feel the need to test their boundries. He actually broke a tv one time trying to get his point across.

6. Throw a tantrum yourself. Loudly babble incoherently. If I remember, this happened between my sister and I when we were young. Like if one of us was playing with a toy, the other would start saying stuff like 'I want it', 'It's mine', and the response 'I was playing with it first' or 'Mommy' comes up often.
He said by the time spanking comes into the picture he's already been doing plenty of yelling.

7. Get some ice cream for yourself, but tell the kid, maybe if you behaved you could get some reward next time. Again with the bribing, not sure if that is good in the long run.
Yeah, I think this fits into number 2 again.

8. Go on the Internet, search for 'toddler throwing tantrum, what do I do' and pick whatever the Internet tells you to do. :)
He didn't really stop laughing long enough to answer this one. Sorry. :D

9. Have a dog that you beat on in front of them whenever the dog does something wrong. They will get the idea and won't try anything. :eek: I had to put it out there. Don't do this. I'm just rambling at this point.
They got rid of the dog when it attacked his pregnant girlfriend before the little one was born. But he didn't really like that idea anyway.

10. They wouldn't happen to make locking car seats. Strap'em in for a while.
:twisted: Wrong, and might get you in a little trouble with the law I hear...
This seems a lot worse to him than a swat on the bottom.

11. Get a prescription for Ritalin and sleeping pills. :eek: What's scarier is that this is really common.
He didn't think you were serious with this one and I don't think you were either with the :eek: and all.

[pisces2473]

I love how all of you think you know what you'll do with your kids when you have them. But you don't know what will happen, what your child will be like, etc. So NO ONE here except those with children or those who spend a LOT of time around children can really play out any of these scenarios.

[WeirdBrake]

I love how all of you think you know what you'll do with your kids when you have them. But you don't know what will happen, what your child will be like, etc. So NO ONE here except those with children or those who spend a LOT of time around children can really play out any of these scenarios.

Just like people don't really know how they might properly moderate a message board until they actually do it.

THERE, I SAID IT! :p

[tina1979]

Meat-
I agree with everything your friend said!

and Pi-
I was thinking the same thing. Everyone likes to say that they would or wouldn't do something, but until you are actually in that situation you NEVER know!!!

[wordsmith]

I don't know. Personally, I don't have children yet. But having spent years in youth work/childcare, etc. I DEFINITELY have informed opinions, based on experience, regarding discipline, and gave me lots and lots to think about regarding what my personal philosophies are. At my last job, I easily spent more time with the children I worked with than their parents did, in most cases.

[tina1979]

I don't know. Personally, I don't have children yet. But having spent years in youth work/childcare, etc. I DEFINITELY have informed opinions, based on experience, regarding discipline, and gave me lots and lots to think about regarding what my personal philosophies are. At my last job, I easily spent more time with the children I worked with than their parents did, in most cases.
Word-
Sorry I didn't quote the rest of what she said
"So NO ONE here except those with children or those who spend a LOT of time around children can really play out any of these scenarios."
In cases like yours I would think that you would definately be moreable to react a certain way, but still you never know. I went my whole life saying that I would never do something particular, but when I was put in that situation I actually did.
Its crazy the situations that life throws at you.

[wordsmith]

Yeah, that's true. But I still doubt that my ideas on spanking are gonna change much when the kids are mine.

[tina1979]

Yeah, that's true. But I still doubt that my ideas on spanking are gonna change much when the kids are mine.
I doubt it too. I've been down that road myself. :)

[pisces2473]

I don't know. Personally, I don't have children yet. But having spent years in youth work/childcare, etc. I DEFINITELY have informed opinions, based on experience, regarding discipline, and gave me lots and lots to think about regarding what my personal philosophies are. At my last job, I easily spent more time with the children I worked with than their parents did, in most cases.
Did you see the other part of my post? If you spend time with a LOT of kids? ;)

[Irish79]

I was spanked as a child (with a thick homemade wooden "paddle") and constantly told by my mother to "wait until your father gets home". And yet, I don't feel that I was abused at all - it was just our form of discipline - and boy did it work! I would probably spank my kids - some parents try to reason with their kids or bribe them and the kids in turn walk all over them.

Edit: Oops - I just noticed this thread is a year old - I was just reading about how some lawmakers want to make spanking children illegal and did a search for the topic. I didn't notice the '06 date - sorry!

[PenforPrez]

Lately, I've been pondering this question. I don't know what to think just yet.

[Syracuse]

I'm against it. If you're a good parent you won't need to spank your kid. Being a good parent isn't easy of course.

[pisces2473]

I was spanked as a child (with a thick homemade wooden "paddle") and constantly told by my mother to "wait until your father gets home". And yet, I don't feel that I was abused at all - it was just our form of discipline - and boy did it work! I would probably spank my kids - some parents try to reason with their kids or bribe them and the kids in turn walk all over them.

Edit: Oops - I just noticed this thread is a year old - I was just reading about how some lawmakers want to make spanking children illegal and did a search for the topic. I didn't notice the '06 date - sorry!
That's okay, I saw that article yesterday, and noticed this thread was bumped. I figured it was for that reason.

[wordsmith]

Boy, does THIS thread bring back some memories. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[pisces2473]

Boy, does THIS thread bring back some memories. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Yeah, right on page one. :neutral:

[Syracuse]

I HATE the idea of hitting children. I don't think it's ever justified. I'm not saying that every parent who's ever hit his or her kids is a bad parent or an abusive monster. But hitting your kids, to me, is falling short. It's a mistake. The ideal should be to raise your kids without any physical punishment at all.

I have the strongest, gut-level repulsion toward the idea of hitting children. Call it whatever you want, but it's still a big, strong person exercising power of a smaller one-- inflicting pain and getting away with it because he can. Just another form of bullying. If your boss smacked you for making a mistake at work, you could press charges and sue. But parents have the "right" to smack around their kids as a method of "discipline?" I don't buy that.

A while back, wives were considered the property of their husbands, and it was acceptable for their husbands to beat them to keep them in line. Now the more enlightened societies and individuals reject this. Eventually, we'll move toward a culture where it's less and less acceptable to hit one's own kids, and we'll look back at the widespread practice of corporal punishment with the same disgust as we do on those times when wife beating was socially approved.That's where the phrase "rule of thumb" came from. Men could beat their wives with a stick, but it couldn't be thicker than their thumb.

[wordsmith]

Oh, God.

[pisces2473]

Syracuse, why are you bringing up a very old post, just out of curiosity?

[Syracuse]

Syracuse, why are you bringing up a very old post, just out of curiosity?
I didn't top this, but then said something about page one so I went to see page one where I found that post, and me and a colleague were talking about the phrase rule of thumb yesterday and he said that's where it came from. I'm against hitting kids and women btw.

[pisces2473]

I didn't top this, but then said something about page one
What?

[Syracuse]

What?
I mean someone said something a few posts back about page one and I was curious so I went to look at page one of this thread.

[weary]

i didn't read the thread beyond the OP. but my vote is yes. HELL YES.

[AshleyJordan]

I don't think it's OK, mostly because my parents hit me all the time for even the slightest provocation. I am hoping and planning to never spank my kids, but I also know how frustrating they can be, and that sometimes a little swat can scare them away from doing something really bad/dangerous.

[Syracuse]

I don't think it's OK, mostly because my parents hit me all the time for even the slightest provocation. I am hoping and planning to never spank my kids, but I also know how frustrating they can be, and that sometimes a little swat can scare them away from doing something really bad/dangerous.
If they are acting frustrating and don't listen it's because you have done a poor job of raising them.

Also studies have shown that most men who beat their wives were beaten themselves as a child. It gets ingrained in them that it is the only way to deal with tough situations.

[wordsmith]

If they are acting frustrating and don't listen it's because you have done a poor job of raising them.

Untrue. Any (and every) kid can (and will) act frustrating and not listen. Little developmental psychology fact for you.

[Winter Storm]

i didn't read the thread beyond the OP. but my vote is yes. HELL YES.
Seriously didn't want to get involved in this thread at all, but I also agree with Weary. Was just the way I was brought up, I guess.

[AshleyJordan]

Wrong.

Please. Words is right. Kids test boundaries and act up. It's what they do.

[pisces2473]

Duh, remember, kids are people too. Just because they can't talk as much as adults or do important things, it doesn't mean they don't have minds of their own. That's what gets on parents' nerves.

I was swatted, when appropriate. Never beaten, although I'm sure back then I thought it was horrible torture. LOL I was a little bratty bitch. I effing deserved it. I'm surprised I wasn't beaten, sometimes, with my mouth and "opinions." LOL

[hoodie]

I don't think it's right to abuse children I personally got spanked a lot, but I used to laugh when they did it just to be a spiteful little brat. No disciplinary method is the be-all-end-all.

Nonetheless, I voted yes. Smack = a light swat on the behind or maybe the hand. NEVER a punch, pinch, slap, etc., never on the face, stomach, or somewhere that would actually hurt the child for more than a few seconds afterwards. This is for small children only, I agree, once the child is verbal and can understand, it'd be done. If other methods of discipline work, I'd use those in place of it.

[Syracuse]

Though I will say that verbally abusing your kids is just as worse if not more so than physically abusing them. I think it's a cycle though. Some people just shouldn't be parents. My dad did that to me growing up, physical and mental abuse. Didn't make me respect him, I was just careful to not let him know what I was up to. Finally I when I got big enough myself I slammed him up against the wall once. Now it's like he respects me. Probably because his life was like the typical macho man, only the strong survive, etc. I'm going to teach my future kids love and respect, and they'll love and respect me in return, I'm stopping the cycle of mistakes in my family with me.

[wordsmith]

I think the problem is defining abuse, and that's the reason that there's never gonna be anybody convincing anybody of anything other than what they already think in this discussion.

To some of us, spanking is NOT synonymous with physical abuse. To others, it is. Ne'er the twain shall meet, this being the case.

But interesting point regarding verbal-emotional abusiveness, which is EASILY as damaging and more damaging than any physically inflicted wounds (though it was made much earlier on the thread as well)...however, you've still got the same subjectiveness as with the spanking issue.

Consider...
If you're yelling at a kid, are you necessarily being verbally and emotionally abusive? Does it follow that you can't raise your voice to a child, or it's abuse? Or that if you speak disapprovingly to them for disciplinary purposes, you're inflicting emotional wounds? Or is it the equivalent of a spanking? Something that's not abusive, but gets their attention and is done with the intent to redirect.

[wordsmith]

I'm going to teach my future kids love and respect, and they'll love and respect me in return, I'm stopping the cycle of mistakes in my family with me.

When you have kids, you'll learn that your kids may love you, but they will not, repeat, not always show you respect, and it's unrealistic to think that they will, yes, EVEN if you show them respect. You still love your kids, even when they're disrespectful, and treat them with respect, because that's how kids LEARN to be respectful of others. But it's really naive to think that your kids will always treat you with respect. It's just not how it works, no matter what kind of parent you are. Kids test boundaries. It's how they learn.

Also, while not duplicating abuses that you suffered is absolutely an admirable thing...you WILL make mistakes as a parent. Maybe the same ones yours did, maybe different ones, probably both. But you will make mistakes. Everyone does.

[weary]

When you have kids, you'll learn that your kids may love you, but they will not, repeat, not always show you respect, and it's unrealistic to think that they will, yes, EVEN if you show them respect. You still love your kids, even when they're disrespectful, and treat them with respect, because that's how kids LEARN to be respectful of others. But it's really naive to think that your kids will always treat you with respect. It's just not how it works, no matter what kind of parent you are. Kids test boundaries. It's how they learn.

Also, while not duplicating abuses that you suffered is absolutely an admirable thing...you WILL make mistakes as a parent. Maybe the same ones yours did, maybe different ones, probably both. But you will make mistakes. Everyone does.

amen, amen, AMEN!!!

[and1grad]

I'm not a fan of having to delete pages of posts so lets try to keep the thread about beating kids from getting as childish as it did today.

Syracuse, I think its time you took a break from the boards.

[Syracuse]

Hmm yes I was banned for 2 weeks? I wondered why, giving a reason would be nice, because I couldn't see the boards. I will try not to let my emotions get the best of me in the future.

[and1grad]

Hmm yes I was banned for 2 weeks? I wondered why, giving a reason would be nice, because I couldn't see the boards. I will try not to let my emotions get the best of me in the future.
Seriously? Do you really NOT know? YOU'RE telling me about being nice? Personally, I thought only giving you 2 weeks was pretty nice.

[meatwad]

I'm not disagreeing with the ban, but as someone who's been banned, it would be nice to have a reason posted where it says reason:. :D

[BadKitty]

I'm just surprised that 87% of the people who voted on the CNN poll said it was ok.

A few months ago, I was in line at the Post Office and this woman in front of me had two boys about 5 or so and weren't doing anything wrong, just running around and being normal. She then procedes to yell at them "GET OVER HERE, NOW", hits them on the side of the head and tells them to stand quietly in line with her. Everybody else must have thought it was normal, but I was having flashbacks to my childhood.


Running around is not "being normal". That warrants Rytaline. The children were out of control.:rolleyes:

[Syracuse]

Sometimes it's hard for me to tell what is accepted on a message board. So do I have to be "nice" or I get banned? Because people have been rude to me on this board and weren't banned. I just shrug it off. Maybe I should report the posts?

[weary]

Running around is not "being normal". That warrants Rytaline. The children were out of control.:rolleyes:
i know i had a hand in this thread previously getting out of control, so i'm not going to say a whole lot here. but while i'm pretty against drugging up kids, and absolutely against abuse, i stand by my yes answer that in *some* circumstances, it's (spanking) okay.

i'd also venture to say that while running around IS normal for a 5-yo, so is being taught that you can't do that all the time/everywhere.*

*note: i'm NOT saying it's okay to smack said child to teach them that.

[and1grad]

Sometimes it's hard for me to tell what is accepted on a message board. So do I have to be "nice" or I get banned? Because people have been rude to me on this board and weren't banned. I just shrug it off. Maybe I should report the posts?
You dont have to be nice but honestly I dont believe there's a person on this board that doesnt know when what they've said crossed a line. You were saying nasty things about weary as a mother and that is UNACCEPTABLE. You're smart enough to know that. In meatwad's case, he started a thread disparaging a particular ethnicity. Unacceptable, period. There should be NO confusion about when you've done or said something stupid enough to get you banned. And like you say in this thread, a lot can slide and I have banned someone b/c of what they said to you also so I dont think you should be complaining about that either. And honestly, if you think you were banned unfairly, abby@quarterlifecrisis.com. Then all the mods will discuss it, hopefully, and maybe you'll get reinstated. Ask krissy about that.

[BadKitty]

i know i had a hand in this thread previously getting out of control, so i'm not going to say a whole lot here. but while i'm pretty against drugging up kids, and absolutely against abuse, i stand by my yes answer that in *some* circumstances, it's (spanking) okay.

i'd also venture to say that while running around IS normal for a 5-yo, so is being taught that you can't do that all the time/everywhere.*

*note: i'm NOT saying it's okay to smack said child to teach them that.


I was just trying to be funny. But I am not against spanking either - although I feel that as far as parenting issues are concerned, I am far from being qualified or ready to address them. I think I need to research things first.

I also have problems with 5 year olds, coming up to me in a restaurant and grabbing shit from my table while their parents have the expression "kids will be kids" on their face.

I wasn't trying to approach things one-sidedly (is that even a word) at all.

[cheshrcarol]

My god, this is like the thread that never dies. :rolleyes:

[BadKitty]

My god, this is like the thread that never dies. :rolleyes:


Should it? I though that was the purpose of starting threads and posting - discussion.

[WorkInProgress]

Should it? I though that was the purpose of starting threads and posting - discussion.

It is, but this one is 17 pages and well over a year old. And it's exhausting.

[Syracuse]

It is, but this one is 17 pages and well over a year old. And it's exhausting.
Simple solution . . .