Palestinian Elections

[SunDevil]

What do you think about the Palestinian elections this past week? Are you surprised that they ran more smoothly than the last two US elections (Presidential)? They didn't have people standing in long lines or counting chads. Why can't America get modern, reliable, accurate and secure elections, where they start at one time and end at another not staggered by time zones and states?

But, the real reason for this thread is to talk about who won the election in the Palestine territory. I'm sure Bush will have something to say next week in the State of the Union address. But, when you implement democracy in the region, you have to accept who they pick. What happens if they have different beliefs than the western world is yet to be seen. What would happen if Germany elected the Nazi's into power again? The Nazi regime did improve the lives of Germans prior to the war, and would have gotten elected by the majority of Germans in 1938. And even though Mahmoud Abbas is still the President of the Palestine territory, it looks like his party is losing popularity. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years at least.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/world/0601/hamas.explainer/frameset.exclude.html?eref=yahoo

[yankeeyosh]

It's hard to say...it is quite disturbing, though. Hamas has never been a friend of Israel, and the large support for that group does not bode well for the peace process (although to be frank with you, there was never any real peace process to begin with...it was just filled with broken promises and false hopes). I do think that there will be Western intervention if this threatens stability in that region.

[SunDevil]

That would get really messy if the Western allies had to go into Gaza and the West Bank alongside Israel. Especially with Iran's government thinking about what it could do with nuclear weapons. Add to it that a lot of US troops are already all over the region, and it becomes more of a problem. It could easily get spun that this is a crusade against Islam, and that the West wants to impose their ideas on the Middle East....

And what would a war against Palestine look like? If we killed everyone in Hamas, it would be a massacre. It would be like killing all of the democrats in Massachusetts, or all of the republicans in Texas. How are you going to be successful? I could think of some ways, but I would wind up in front of a human's right committee for implementing them (they aren't that bad, just not good, like pumping large amounts of estrogen in the drinking water and food they eat).

[meatwad]

Smoothly? I heard they were shooting at each other after the election! :eek:

[SunDevil]

I don't think they are shooting each other. They are shooting into the air, and doing some protesting.

[meatwad]

I don't think they are shooting each other. They are shooting into the air, and doing some protesting.

Bullets have to land somewhere. :eek:

[Dreamchasa]

bullet shells have to land somewhere.

I'm not sure how they didn't see this coming though. Usually you can get a good read on whose winning. Did they win by a large amount or slim margin?

This is when I say religion makes folks NUTS. I mean can someone tell me exactly why it is israel and palenstine don't get along? I mean is it bad blood stemming from back on the david goliath tip.

I mean at least I know WHY folks here in this country don't like each other for the most part. I'm not sure I know enough about the history of this.

Who finances hamas?

[tdko]

What do you think about the Palestinian elections this past week? Are you surprised that they ran more smoothly than the last two US elections (Presidential)? They didn't have people standing in long lines or counting chads. Why can't America get modern, reliable, accurate and secure elections, where they start at one time and end at another not staggered by time zones and states?
Maybe because the Palestinians have fewer people than the state of California?

But, the real reason for this thread is to talk about who won the election in the Palestine territory. I'm sure Bush will have something to say next week in the State of the Union address. But, when you implement democracy in the region, you have to accept who they pick. What happens if they have different beliefs than the western world is yet to be seen. What would happen if Germany elected the Nazi's into power again? The Nazi regime did improve the lives of Germans prior to the war, and would have gotten elected by the majority of Germans in 1938.
I find this comparison disturbing. Would you really say that the Nazi regime was acceptable because they did some good? I think that's the worst kind of complacency. Hamas murders innocent citizens regularly. They condemn the existence of an entire nation and teach their children to hate someone for their nationality. They train their citizens to kill themselves with promises of eternal life in Heaven.

They do good works too. They feed people, offer jobs and welfare, and in general support their communities. But they murder. And that's not something that you can "make up for" by feeding your people. They can't be forgiven by the int'l community just because they feed their citizens.

Just like with the Nazis, you don't ignore atrocities just because they do some good stuff too.

This is when I say religion makes folks NUTS. I mean can someone tell me exactly why it is israel and palenstine don't get along? I mean is it bad blood stemming from back on the david goliath tip.
Here's what happened, in a nutshell. There were a bunch of Jews and Arabs living in that area under the Ottoman Empire. The Empire gets whupped by the Allies in WWI, and the British cede a small section of land to the Zionist movement, which aimed to start a Jewish homeland. The British name the place Palestine, which is the first time it's ever been called by that name. That was 1918.

There are protests by the Arabs over this decision, and WWII hits. The jews start emigrating to this area en masse, and the Arabs continue to freak out. Keep in mind, this is an area where they have all lived peaceably together before this time. The UN offers a two state solution so that the Jews get one area and the Arabs get another. The Jews say yes, the Arabs say no.

The British decide it's too much to deal with and leave in 1948. The Jews are immediately attacked by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt, and they respond, conquering what is modern Israel. That was the War of Independence.

Big note: all the Arabs that chose to fight on Israel's side became citizens. About 600,000 chose to side with the other nations and they became the "Palestinian refugees."

Israel is formed and is attacked in '56, '67, and '73. They kick the crap out of the Arabs all three times. In '67, they take the Golan Heights from Lebanon and the West Bank from Jordan.

The Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) is formed in the '60s by Yasser Arafat, who pledges the destruction of Israel. Over his 30+ year term as leader of the PLO, Arafat embezzles millions of dollars and is offered two land deals and refuses both of them. He also fails to use international aid to build a decent infrastructure for the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians are the only people who have refugee status passed down to their children. Everyone else who has qualified for refugee status according to the UN was denied this. That's why there are suddenly millions of people claiming Israel as their land. Originally, 600,000 people chose to give up their homes and fight the Israelis. When they lost, they were denied entrance into any neighboring nations, despite the fact that many of them had their origins in nations like Syria and Jordan.

[lostindc]

Both the Palestinians and Germany had several things in common: They are/were in the the midst of an economic nightmare with mass poverty, unemployment, and little hope for the future. Democratic elections often produce radical militant results in such dire circumstances.

This is why Bush's statements about just needing to export democracy to the Middle East to achieve peace is naive and too simplistic. The Palestinian and Iraqi economies need to be improved and stabilized, the people need to have jobs and incomes (firing the entire Iraqi military and police force doesn't help the unemployment numbers), they need electicity and clean water (not Halliburton water) so the people will have hope for the future (instead of blowing themselves up). But this kind of nuts and bolts nation building doesn't seem to make it onto Bush's radar (maybe he can start with New Orleans)

[Cat Mandu]

Who finances hamas?

A lovely, peace loving state called Iran.

Iran also finances another "charity organization", The Hizbullah, which is pretty much Hamas "light", and is dedicated to making life miserable for Israel on its border with Lebanon.

So Iran really is the one in charge of all the terrorist attacks against Israel. They not only help with finances, but they also supply them with the knowledge and materials to carry out those attacks. Top Iranian officials and top Palestinian terrorists have pot luck dinners together all the time. There was a meeting like that just a month ago in Beirut. Iran's fingerprints are all over this current bloody cycle of violence.

I strongly believe that if there's ever a regime change in Iran, whether by force or by inner Iranian forces, the whole region would be much better off. I really have no idea what the world is waiting for. Israel can not take Iran by herself. If we don't hurry up, a nuclear Iran would mean we should all be very very worried. The Iranian rhetoric (and they don't even have a bomb yet!) is already very aggressive, and it's only going to get worse.

[SunDevil]

I find this comparison disturbing. Would you really say that the Nazi regime was acceptable because they did some good?

I was saying, how do you know that the Nazis were going to do what they did in 1938? Would we have done something pre-emptivly to stop Hitler?

Who finances hamas?

Along with Iran(most of their money comes from oil), and there are charities in Saudi Arabia that give them money. Canada, the USA, and the EU all donate about 1 billion/year in aid to them (not Hamas directly). But that money might stop. They also get weapons and bomb making material from surrounding countries.

Hamas murders innocent citizens regularly.

The US and Israel also have been known to kill a few innocent bystanders. It might be for different reasons and motives, but it doesn't help the situation if we kill non-combatants. Even if we do kill bad people, they might be someone's parents or significant other. Then more people will hate us and buy into the bad things they are preaching.

[Cat Mandu]

Hamas murders innocent citizens regularly.



The US and Israel also have been known to kill a few innocent bystanders



Hamas kills women and children in cafes, buses and restaurants intentionally.

Israel and the USA kill women and children unintentionally. They are part of collateral damage.

That's the difference.

Btw, it has been proven that Hamas uses said women and children as human shields.

Let me ask you this, what do those Palestinian children doing in the streets while the Israeli army is conducting a military operation in Gaza or the West Bank? If that sort of an army activity happened in my nieghborhood, my mom would drag my ass back to the house, and shut the door on me. Somehow, all those kids end up in front of tanks. Could it possibly be because their families are being terrorized into sending their children to the line of fire by Hamas, or maybe because those families believe this is where their kids belong in the name of the cause? And then they yell murder when those kids happen to be killed. Not saying that Israel is a saint, but there's lots of gray in this sadistic-masochistic relationship Israel and the Palestinian authority have going on.

[Bruiser]

Both the Palestinians and Germany had several things in common: They are/were in the the midst of an economic nightmare with mass poverty, unemployment, and little hope for the future. Democratic elections often produce radical militant results in such dire circumstances.

This is why Bush's statements about just needing to export democracy to the Middle East to achieve peace is naive and too simplistic. The Palestinian and Iraqi economies need to be improved and stabilized, the people need to have jobs and incomes (firing the entire Iraqi military and police force doesn't help the unemployment numbers), they need electicity and clean water (not Halliburton water) so the people will have hope for the future (instead of blowing themselves up). But this kind of nuts and bolts nation building doesn't seem to make it onto Bush's radar (maybe he can start with New Orleans)

We gave the Palestinians the opportunity to express who they are as a people, and they overwhelmingly chose the Homicide Bomber Party. Just because they voted the terrorists into power does not mean that the US and EU have to support them. Lets see them run their country without foreign aid.

This cartoon from Cox and Forkum sums it up well (http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.01.26.Thugocracy-X.gif)

[lostindc]

We gave the Palestinians the opportunity to express who they are as a people, and they overwhelmingly chose the Homicide Bomber Party.

Well they had a choice between the homicide bomber party and the homicide bomber party (The Fatah party is also a militant, terrorist, suicide bomber party that doesn't acknowledge Israel's existance)

[SunDevil]

And the Fatah party hasn't improved their lives very much in the past, so maybe they thought anybody would be better than more of the same. It's kind of how people voted for Kerry, not because he was the best, but because he isn't Bush.

[Cat Mandu]

Hamas is perceived as less corrupt and less elitist than the Fatah. The Fatah is an old boys club in a sense, it's all Arafat's buddies who came back with him to Gaza from Tunis, and went on to steal billions of dollars that should have gone to the benefit of the Palestinian people.

That created a vacuum, and in stepped the Hamas. They established a sort of a social welfare system, they operate schools and summer camps, food banks etc.

Of course they were going to win. If I were a Palestinian, I would have chosen them too. Who cares if they're terrorists, when they get you food on the table.

[chicagogirl]

I think the Palestinians have just shot themselves in the butt. I mean, I'm not thrilled that the charming Hamas party won. Up until now, they'e been able to say that the Palestinian goverment didn't know what was going on, as in "gosh, we didn't think that the money we gave Hamas would be used to buy guns. Heck, didn't even know Hamas had guns. Who knew?" But now, they've taken it to another level because now it's official, now it'll be harder to play stupid.
This is what I think is going to happen. The Arab world is in their own Middle Ages, where fundamentalism rules. Given their first tastes of democracy and choice, they would likely go for whichever group looks the best at the moment, which could be someone we don't like. But then, groups like Hamas aren't likely to do much for the people who elected them (unless they're really a group of big fuzzy wuzzy bears who are going to turn in all of their weapons to buy food). Eventually, I think the Arabs people who have democracy will become a bit more moderate (I keep hearing that there are moderate Muslims, but I never actually hear them). Arabs in other countries, I think, would be likely to see their neighbors enjoying freedoms, and want some of their own.