trend of education inflation

[vxmike]

Has anyone else noticed a trend of overeducation in this forum of mostly twentysomethings? I'm amazed at the number of people here with masters degrees and it seems like a bachelors is almost minimum. Probably some Phds too I bet.

However despite all this expensive education the primary problem for most is lack of careers and income. Our generation is far more educated but with worse job/financial prospects than our parents and grandparents generations. It seems that most of the QLC problems stem from this issue.

So my question is WHY? Why are young people going into massive debt and wasting years of working opportunity to obtain degrees that are either worthless or seriously declining in value? There are no direct job opportunities for a large number of college degrees in America anymore.

Despite this reality parents, teachers, guidance counselors, etc STILL advocate college education as the end-all solution to a good life. They will often entertain no other option and pressure young people into poor decisions. Fact is an apprentice plumber who applies himself will do far better than 90% of people with bachelors degrees.

Why?

[winneythepooh7]

My degree was not a waste. I needed a Master's to advance in my field. Anyone working as a Professional in the field of Social Work does. I am perfectly happy with my life and my job. I think your opinion is a little off here.......

[pisces2473]

While I will agree with you that college is not for everyone, and that there are other options out there (trade school, like you said), many people HAVE to get advanced degrees if they want to do any type of professional job, just like Winney said. I got a BA in 2002, I have been taking grad classes on and off since I graduated from undergrad. I will need a masters degree not only to get a professional job, but also to get into another field. There are certain fields you can't even try to get into unless you have an advanced degree or SO many years of experience.

If you are going to grad school to delay the real world, then that is not a good thing...but most people are going to grad school for the right reasons. And if you want something badly enough, a little school debt won't hurt you that much.

[winneythepooh7]

The fact is it is not easy for ANYONE to get a job these days, whether they go to college, grad school, trade school or just get a GED. Everyone's circumstances are different. And as has been stated on here before, money doesn't buy happiness. Yeah, someone may be making 6 figures but they might have horrible budgeting habits, no one to love them in their life, no time off, the list could go on and on...........School doesn't necessarily determine success in one's life either. The person and their situation determines success in their life. Having a degree certainly does help however. My boyfriend dropped out of college and is a successful business owner today. However, he currently has no health insurance and if he gets hurt, he is pretty much up shit's creek. He tells me all the time he wishes he went to college because at least then he would have something to fall back on.

[Deni81]

The working world is far more competitive than it was for our parent's generation. In some fields getting a master's degree is not so much a luxury but a necessity. Yes, I do think some people mainly go to graduate school to "avoid" the real world. But I don't think it is the majority.

I do plan on going to get my masters in 2-3 years. The job I want (guidance counselor) demands one. You can't get that job without it. So I don't consider it a waste of time or money.

[ma1939]

They say that a college degree is now the new high school degree. Well, in my opinion, if a bachelor's degree is what a high school degree used to be, then students shouldn't have to pay tuition for college, since they don't have to pay tuition for high school. The government should pay for at least the first two years of college education, so students don't have to suffer with paying back massive loans while working low paying jobs after graduation.

[MuBetaPsi_Xi]

I agree with the people above who need Master's degrees to advance in their fields. My father has been teaching high school Special Education in a public school since he was 23 years old, and he only has a bachelor's degree. However, due to the No Child Left Behind Act, he is required to take graduate courses in order to keep his teching certification. My younger sister has her certification in Elementary Education, but she needs to take graduate school courses in order to earn her permanent teaching certification.

True, there are alot of well-paying jobs out there that don't require a Bachelor's Degree, but are many of these jobs things that you want to be doing when you're 50 or 60 years old? I think its each person's personal decision. My personal decision was to go to college, and I have not regretted it at all. I almost have my student loans paid off, and I just found out yesterday that I'm getting another raise at my job. I'm content, even if my job isn't that closely connected to what I majored in during college. I made the personal decision to not go to graduate school, because I felt that I didn't have any good reasons to earn a Master's Degree. I may change my mind in the future, but who knows. Even if I eventually quit my job and end up doing something that requires no degree, I will have no regrets about the education I already have.

[ukulelechango]

I don't think formal education should ALWAYS be seen as a prerequisite to a career. Some people, myself included, want to obtain Masters degrees and PhDs purely for the sake of knowledge. I want to one day be a research professor, which without a doubt requires a PhD. However, I'm not going to go to graduate school just so I can become a professor. I'm going to go to graduate school so I can learn more.

[springhaze]

Like a lot of people, I'm getting my Master's degree next year because I have to have one if I want to get a job in my field. But I also agree that grad degrees can be an end in and of themselves....someday (10+ years down the line probably) I can see myself getting a doctoral degree, not for the job opportunities (although I'd probably try to teach at that point) but because I'm intensely interested in the field and would really love to do some in-depth research beyond the MA level.

[MuBetaPsi_Xi]

I found this article on the free section of the online Wall Street Journal tonight after reading this particular thread. I think it touches on some of the points already mentioned above:

http://www.careerjournal.com/jobhunting/change/20060324-cullen.html?cjpos=home_whatsnew_major

[Sanman111]

well,
I do think the educational level is increasing. This may be due to new laws which are requiring masters degrees for fields that used to be dominated by people with bachelor's degrees or because people are having a hard time finding a job. Here's my question, where are we going to be in 20 years? Is everything going to require a doctorate? It is really going to cause a problem in the long run as far as retirement for our generation.

P.S. - that article had some very good points

[EmberMae]

So my question is WHY? Why are young people going into massive debt and wasting years of working opportunity to obtain degrees that are either worthless or seriously declining in value? There are no direct job opportunities for a large number of college degrees in America anymore.

Despite this reality parents, teachers, guidance counselors, etc STILL advocate college education as the end-all solution to a good life. They will often entertain no other option and pressure young people into poor decisions. Fact is an apprentice plumber who applies himself will do far better than 90% of people with bachelors degrees.

Why?

The second paragraph answers the first paragraph. Students are doing it because they don't know any better. Up until recently a bachelor's degree was the ticket to a good middle class job. Even if you were a liberal arts major. Teachers, counselors, and parents are still living in this previous reality. It hurts to know that my parents spent thousands of dollars and I spent four years on a degree that essentially means nothing to employers, but, there you go.

[PVD99]

The second paragraph answers the first paragraph. Students are doing it because they don't know any better. Up until recently a bachelor's degree was the ticket to a good middle class job. Even if you were a liberal arts major. Teachers, counselors, and parents are still living in this previous reality. It hurts to know that my parents spent thousands of dollars and I spent four years on a degree that essentially means nothing to employers, but, there you go.

What's your major? I'm sure it doesn't mean nothing. What field are you in?

[ebruening]

..Teachers, counselors, and parents are still living in this previous reality...

As a teacher, I'm surprised at your comment. I will also say that I'm rather offended. The vast majority of teachers I know tell students to seriously consider their options after high school. Many teachers at my current school realize that a college degree is expensive, and in many cases, no longer guarantees students any particular level of income. True, some teacher MAY think that, but not all.

[EmberMae]

What's your major? I'm sure it doesn't mean nothing. What field are you in?

English/Writing. I'm currently unemployed.

As a teacher, I'm surprised at your comment. I will also say that I'm rather offended. The vast majority of teachers I know tell students to seriously consider their options after high school. Many teachers at my current school realize that a college degree is expensive, and in many cases, no longer guarantees students any particular level of income. True, some teacher MAY think that, but not all.

I didn't mean anything personal, sheesh. I still believe that most of the adults in our society who have been working for awhile and are in the position to influence children are not aware of the changes that have taken place with the value of a college degree. It seems like everyone I know encourages young people to go to college. They want them to improve their lives, not a bad thing. but college doesn't necessarily work anymore.

[MuBetaPsi_Xi]

English/Writing. I'm currently unemployed.



I didn't mean anything personal, sheesh. I still believe that most of the adults in our society who have been working for awhile and are in the position to influence children are not aware of the changes that have taken place with the value of a college degree. It seems like everyone I know encourages young people to go to college. They want them to improve their lives, not a bad thing. but college doesn't necessarily work anymore.

That's funny. Since my parents were college educated, my parents strongly encouraged me to earn a college education for as long as I can remember. I remember that my high school guidance counselor was curiously NOT pro-college; he spent ALOT of time encouraging people to go into the military or to attend trade school. When he had presentations for our senior class, very little of the content addressed college. There's nothing wrong with these two other options; however, my parents thought it was funny that he personally had a college degree (and probably also a master's), yet he almost seemed to be encouraging us students to NOT attend college. Maybe he personally regretted having gone to college?

Anyway, since my dad teaches special education at a high school, most of his students attend very little or no postsecondary education (and learning a trade isn't always a realistic option), so he has to help prepare them to enter the workforce after high school. He said that in the past few years, alot of his students have been having trouble finding jobs. When their parents ask him why this is, he has to tell them that their kids are competing with college graduates for the low-wage jobs that are available. A few years ago, his students didn't have nearly this big of a problem because they did not have to compete with college graduates for these same lower-wage jobs. I believe that the problem that college educated people have with unemployment and underemployment is having a ripple effect on those people with less education.

[MuBetaPsi_Xi]

Here's another article that I found on the free section of the online Wall Street Journal that pertains to this topic. This article is written by a woman with a PhD in Chemistry who can't find a job that pays much more than minimum wage. At the end of the article, she says that she is considering going back to school to be retrained as a pharmacist.


http://www.careerjournal.com/columnists/perspective/20060329-fmp.html?cjpos=home_whatsnew_major

[yankeeyosh]

WTF? How did I NOT see this topic?????? This is my favorite stuff! :)

Anyway, there is without a doubt a trend towards more education, and it is very fair to doubt whether there is "inflation" of degrees in a sense. I definitely believe that there are too many people in college right now, and many don't belong there. The statistics prove it. A full half of people who enter a four year school college do not graduate six years later. That number has stabilized and decreased in the last few years, but there are definitely a lot of people who don't belong, and are only there because of societal pressures.

But I think the grad school phenomenon is growing, and in some respects, it is worse than the undergraduate phenomenon. I have repeatedly said that no one should start grad school unless they are sure it is for them and/or necessary to advance in one's field. However, a lot of people in this generation don't do that, and do it simply because "everyone else is doing it" and it's "hip". Grad school is a lot more specialized, and in many cases, unless you get tuition assistance, a lot more expensive than undergrad. However, degree mills are widespread, and an advanced degree means less than it used to. Ten years ago, an MBA meant something. Now, it really isn't much to write home about...I have an aunt who has an MBA, and has been temping for the past five years.

I think that schools should start looking at the quality and not quantity of students. It may initially mean less revenue, but if the caliber of students increases, it would be better in the long run.

[MuBetaPsi_Xi]

I'm glad I've been reading all of the posts on this board regarding the pros and cons of a masters degree. Most of my fiance's friends have master's degrees, and most of mine are going to graduate school at least part-time, and recently I've felt like I'm being left behind. I never even attempted to apply to any graduate program, and I never took the GMAT. My problem is that I still have a chip on my shoulder because I made the mistake of picking an undergrad major that was cosindered a "cake" major, or watered-down, by alot of people at my college (including some faculty members). I didn't realize this off the bat, and I stuck with my undergrad major so that I could graduate in four years. Even though I have a decent job right now, and I just got a raise and a pretty nice bonus for 2005, and I find my work somewhat stimulating, I still feel as if I'm somehow an intellectual loser for choosing the major that I did. So in the past two years, I have spent alot of time thinking about whether I should go to graduate school. (Maybe for an MBA, but I just don't know.) However, I don't have any clearly defined reason for pursing a master's degree. I'm being encouraged by my supervisors to gear my traing toward further advancement in our company, and in my industry, a master's degree doesn't really do anything for you. (Professional designations carry more weight, and I already have two of those.) I told one of my co-workers who does have a master's degree that I'm afraid that I'll wake up one day and find that I'm underqualified and unemployable because everybody around me will have a graduate degree and I won't. She told me not to worry, and that every time she writes her check for her student loan payment, she wonders what her degree was worth. My fiance has already told me numerous times that a graduate degree would be of no help to me at all if I didn't have good reasons for pursuing one. Its just nice to read this board and see that I'm not necessarily going to be left in dust because I feel that at this point, I'm not ready to go to graduate school.

[yankeeyosh]

I'm glad I've been reading all of the posts on this board regarding the pros and cons of a masters degree. Most of my fiance's friends have master's degrees, and most of mine are going to graduate school at least part-time, and recently I've felt like I'm being left behind. I never even attempted to apply to any graduate program, and I never took the GMAT. My problem is that I still have a chip on my shoulder because I made the mistake of picking an undergrad major that was cosindered a "cake" major, or watered-down, by alot of people at my college (including some faculty members). I didn't realize this off the bat, and I stuck with my undergrad major so that I could graduate in four years. Even though I have a decent job right now, and I just got a raise and a pretty nice bonus for 2005, and I find my work somewhat stimulating, I still feel as if I'm somehow an intellectual loser for choosing the major that I did. So in the past two years, I have spent alot of time thinking about whether I should go to graduate school. (Maybe for an MBA, but I just don't know.) However, I don't have any clearly defined reason for pursing a master's degree. I'm being encouraged by my supervisors to gear my traing toward further advancement in our company, and in my industry, a master's degree doesn't really do anything for you. (Professional designations carry more weight, and I already have two of those.) I told one of my co-workers who does have a master's degree that I'm afraid that I'll wake up one day and find that I'm underqualified and unemployable because everybody around me will have a graduate degree and I won't. She told me not to worry, and that every time she writes her check for her student loan payment, she wonders what her degree was worth. My fiance has already told me numerous times that a graduate degree would be of no help to me at all if I didn't have good reasons for pursuing one. Its just nice to read this board and see that I'm not necessarily going to be left in dust because I feel that at this point, I'm not ready to go to graduate school.

Yeah...I wouldn't worry about it. Heck, for a while I was depressed because I wasn't getting a **second** master's degree. But if you don't need it, don't worry about it. I may do a second master's one day, but only if I really want to. I know my parents are pressuring me, but look, I don't think it is something I feel like doing at this point. And I won't.

[labrat2111]

Here's another article that I found on the free section of the online Wall Street Journal that pertains to this topic. This article is written by a woman with a PhD in Chemistry who can't find a job that pays much more than minimum wage. At the end of the article, she says that she is considering going back to school to be retrained as a pharmacist.


http://www.careerjournal.com/columnists/perspective/20060329-fmp.html?cjpos=home_whatsnew_major

I've thought of going back to school to be either an optometrist or a pharmacist. I decided against it though because going back to be an optometrist would cost $150-180K and probably a similiar amount for the closest pharmacy program at Shenandoah University. It just seems like such a gamble to me to go back and take out that kind of debt. Of course the schools tell you there are tons of opportunities for pharmacists or optometrists but I think I've heard that before when I got my chemical engineering degree. I tend to be very cautious in putting myself under a mountain of debt at age 30 at the time when I want to start putting down roots and buy a house and all that. Also you are going to earn quite a bit more but how much of that extra earnings is going to pay student loans until you are into your 50's? I don't want to even think of what the monthly payment is for a $180K student loan.

It is odd though to see some of these articles about PhD chemists and other scientists not being able to find jobs. Aren't there people screaming how the US is falling behind in science and engineering and how we don't produce enough scientists and engineers?

[dansjournal]

winneythepooh7" My boyfriend dropped out of college and is a successful business owner today. However, he currently has no health insurance and if he gets hurt, he is pretty much up shit's creek. He tells me all the time he wishes he went to college because at least then he would have something to fall back on.

Winney....when I hear people say, "a college degree is something to fall back on," it makes me cringe. When it comes to getting a college degree, either you need it as a prerequisite for your profession, as you do for social work, or it's a meaningless credential. The fact that your boyfriend dropped out and is a successful business owner is the best example that you don't need to go to college to be successful in life. As for not having health insurance, that's because he's working for himself, and not for a company. More and more, companies are realizing the obvious, "college kids don't know a damn thing about the real world." Someone who started a business by 24, is in as good a position to find a good job as a college grad w/ 2 years making coffee.

Remember, most of life is who you know, not what you know. Getting your foot in the right doors. In some ways, I think many 20-somethings are at a disadvantage from their college degrees, because they spent 4-years developing a false sense of the real world.

-dan

[lovesoon1207]

I've noticed that too.My boyfriend and I often talk about this.We were both told to go to college...by parents and/or high school teachers.I graduated with a psych degree and am working at a bank as a customer service representative while he graduated with a liberal arts degree in math and science and he's delivering mail.Neither one of our jobs require a degree but it's the best that we can get.Too many people in our generation have a bachelor's degree...so now a bachelor's degree is considered the norm.I feel that somehow there is an "education inflation".In our parent's generation,if one had a bachelor's degree,it was considered something special but now companies expect more than a bachelor's degree from their employees.

[wordsmith]

Winney....when I hear people say, "a college degree is something to fall back on," it makes me cringe. When it comes to getting a college degree, either you need it as a prerequisite for your profession, as you do for social work, or it's a meaningless credential.

I don't necessarily agree with this. I didn't need my degree for my profession, and that doesn't make the time I spent getting it a meaningless credential at all. They're not common, but there ARE people (such as myself), who went to college for the educational experience, and not as a job prerequisite. I did have some concept that my degree MIGHT make it easier for me to find a job, but also that that's not necessarily the case. I went to college to learn, to get experiences I wouldn't have otherwise gotten. Not to guarantee me a job. Nothing guarantees you a job. I don't feel I had a false sense of anything. I knew fully well there were no promises, and if you get a degree, do it because you want it, not because you think it's a meal ticket. Because maybe it is, maybe it's not.

[yankeeyosh]

I don't necessarily agree with this. I didn't need my degree for my profession, and that doesn't make the time I spent getting it a meaningless credential at all. They're not common, but there ARE people (such as myself), who went to college for the educational experience, and not as a job prerequisite. I did have some concept that my degree MIGHT make it easier for me to find a job, but also that that's not necessarily the case. I went to college to learn, to get experiences I wouldn't have otherwise gotten. Not to guarantee me a job. Nothing guarantees you a job. I don't feel I had a false sense of anything. I knew fully well there were no promises, and if you get a degree, do it because you want it, not because you think it's a meal ticket. Because maybe it is, maybe it's not.

You are in a relatively rare group, words...according to the UCLA Freshman Survey, which surveys first-years all over the country, and is the most comprehensive study which gives the "year to year pulse" of American students, over the last 20 years, the number of students who go to college to gain a meaningful philosophy in life has been far exceeded by those who go simply for better job prospects. In the days of the Boom, the numbers were reversed.

And frankly, I don't doubt it. College, to most, is the means to an end. It's a way station to the so-called "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow". Most students are infused with self-esteem...they're told that if they go to college and get a degree, they will get a great job and make oodles of money. And many believe it well after graduation day, no matter what their field is. I'll bet that there are plenty of journalism majors today who think they'll make $50K at graduation simply because they have a piece of paper. True, students are much better prepared for the workforce than college students of say, 10, 15 years ago given their tech savvy and high numbers of internships, but expectations are borderline ridiculous for many.

[wordsmith]

Hey, I'm not disputing I'm a rarity. I also think that the philosophy I hold is far more likely to be reinforced by liberal arts colleges and institutions steeped in humanities, since they foster a loftier sense of the purpose of education and are less likely to characterize it as simply professional training. The entire philosophy behind liberal arts/humanities study is to build the whole person, which, while ultimately ideally preparing you to contribute meaningfuly to the world, isn't strictly "job prep."

But, I wlll say, I haven't wasted three seconds of my life being upset, bitter, depressed, or filled with anxiety regarding whether or not my education prepared me for life post-schooling. I have no doubt that it did. There are a lot of people who spent a lot of time stressing about the "usefulness" of their course of study who can't say the same. All I'm saying. There's something to the concept of going for a broader purpose. It's foolish to think that anything is your magic key to success. There are no magic keys to success. Anybody who tells you differently is selling something.

[yankeeyosh]

But, I wlll say, I haven't wasted three seconds of my life being upset, bitter, depressed, or filled with anxiety regarding whether or not my education prepared me for life post-schooling. I have no doubt that it did. There are a lot of people who spent a lot of time stressing about the "usefulness" of their course of study who can't say the same. All I'm saying. There's something to the concept of going for a broader purpose. It's foolish to think that anything is your magic key to success. There are no magic keys to success. Anybody who tells you differently is selling something.

Well, majoring in the liberal arts, in my opinion, is VERY useful, since many, many fields incorporate those fields, besides the "traditional" ones. You can study English, and make an argument that you're a good candidate for a role in fields like public relations, business, etc. etc. because you have the aptitude to convey your thoughts well. If you're in a specialized field, however, like a pure science or something like that, you may be at a disadvantage because your skills are very narrow in focus...few people outside of the field you are in care that you can derive the quasi-geostrophic equation. Yes, you may have a good quantitative background, but the fields that want a quantitative background are generally specialized in their own right, and expect a certain degree and/or "direct" experience.

[wordsmith]

Yeah, I'd be the last person you'd catch NOT applauding liberal arts. I've found them to have limitless use, for my interests. I wouldn't even go so far as to say that it's not focused and specialized...but you still maintain an excellent base outside the focus of your specialization, and that's the beauty of it.

[bridgetjones]

Yeah it is just more of a bitch in most cases to find your career path but I have had a few managers already that have liberal arts degrees. So they are doing ok... :)

If I could go back, I might have gotten a psych/ arts/ engineering degree and got an MBA after... Meh? Hey kids you can always go back and get a MBA. I did not much enjoy business school. Not that I hate the fact I have one now - it does make getting jobs abit easier in the short term.It is done and it is a good practical degree to have. I just missed alot of that fun uni experience that many wax on about.

Anywho even an MBA is not the answer bc I know of MBAs that are unemployed. Although there are lots of jobs that say they need one, you can still get a job without one. Yes I do have pals that are itching to get theirs. Sorry I'd prefer experience and might get one if I really need one.

[yankeeyosh]

Yeah it is just more of a bitch in most cases to find your career path but I have had a few managers already that have liberal arts degrees. So they are doing ok... :)

If I could go back, I might have gotten a psych/ arts/ engineering degree and got an MBA after... Meh? Hey kids you can always go back and get a MBA. I did not much enjoy business school. Not that I hate the fact I have one now - it does make getting jobs abit easier in the short term.It is done and it is a good practical degree to have. I just missed alot of that fun uni experience that many wax on about.

Anywho even an MBA is not the answer bc I know of MBAs that are unemployed. Although there are lots of jobs that say they need one, you can still get a job without one. Yes I do have pals that are itching to get theirs. Sorry I'd prefer experience and might get one if I really need one.

Yeah...ten years ago, an MBA might make you stand out. Nowadays, because of the proliferation of programs and a hyperdemand, unfortunately, it doesn't mean as much as it used to...

[wordsmith]

Fortunately, for me, there would be no benefit to or reason at all for getting an MBA...or any graduate degree, except in the event that I fell back into education, and then it would be advantageous and essentially required to work in an MEd. Otherwise, wholly unnecessary.

[bridgetjones]

Yup but it is an option! You can always backtrack. Heck I have heard of companies paying more for someone with an MBA and a degree in something else since it gives you another view than business followed by business. I would not learn much out of an MBA program academically. I'd do it to make connections and credentialize.

Bizarre though that one of the first things ppl told me after I got canned was "are you going back to school?" Like going back to school hastily will solve anything. May just delay it for a while... Grad school and community college is not cheap. My parents were like "you have a good business degree, you do not need a masters". So I just thought about it and decided on a path where my bachelors is enough with some extra courses here and there on my own time.