Regarding Starting Salaries.

[lonestar]

There seems to be a lot of people on the boards presuming that starting salary is incredibly important...it really is not. You will make more than your starting salary after you put some years in...maybe not 2 or 3 or 4...but by 10, you should be doing pretty well in any field. Consider: I started working in my present position as an admin assistant...lowly, yes, but I get along well with my boss and requested a promotion into IT becuase it paid better...got it. After spending some time with a new supervisor as an information analyst with an accounting department, I realized I enjoyed accounting. So last week, I asked my current supervisor if I started taking the approriate credit hours to get my CPA (I needed some business and accounting credits on top of my degree), could I possibly get a recomendation into an accounting position. He said sure!

The point? Those that are stuck in perpetual admin assistant roles have an excellent pipeline into a well paying career. Your career development is up to you...and you can do it if you are aggressive enough.

[wordsmith]

If I were concerned with starting salaries, there's no way I'd ever have taken a job in my field.

In my world, you don't worry about making $$$ right away, so long as there's enough to get by. Those early years of work are more for learning than earning. Just my take. I never ANTICIPATED raking it in right away (or later, really, but that's due to my field).

[winneythepooh7]

I also think starting out making less instills good budgeting values for later on. Most of us even though our salaries probably will increase, so will our bills and financial obligations.

[yankeeyosh]

There are four reasons why high starting salaries are demanded so much. First, Gen 'Y', in general, was raised in times that were more affluent than any other generation. As a result, when they graduate college, they want to live a lifestyle similar to the one they grew up in, which would require more money. Second, this is the "self-esteem generation", and they feel that they are worth a lot more than the market rate, since they have been told that they are "special" since day one. Third (and the only one that is warranted), recent college grads have more "real world" experience and tech-savvy than any other generation that came before them, which would make them more marketable. Finally, there is much more pressure to achieve than in the past, which is mostly the fault of Boomer parents. Note the trend of parents getting involved with their kids' job applications. While it may backfire, the parents are pretty much doing so their kids can make as much money as possible as soon as possible.

I do see, however, proof that the monetary/career ambitions of Gen 'Y' are bearing fruit. There is strong evidence that more early-mid 20somethings are in managerial roles, and supervising people years and years older than them. There are 22 year old marketing directors, 24 year old CFO's, and 25 year old product managers all over...at established companies...not just fly-by-night operations. Whether it is significantly higher than in the past is still in question, since I haven't seen any data proving whether it is a noteable trend. But from all indications, the numbers are higher than in the past...10 years ago, a person might have had to work in something for 10-15 years to get to a career level that some kid today can get to in 3 or 4. And I am sure the monetary success is proportional to the career success.

[MuBetaPsi_Xi]

There seems to be a lot of people on the boards presuming that starting salary is incredibly important...it really is not. You will make more than your starting salary after you put some years in...maybe not 2 or 3 or 4...but by 10, you should be doing pretty well in any field. Consider: I started working in my present position as an admin assistant...lowly, yes, but I get along well with my boss and requested a promotion into IT becuase it paid better...got it. After spending some time with a new supervisor as an information analyst with an accounting department, I realized I enjoyed accounting. So last week, I asked my current supervisor if I started taking the approriate credit hours to get my CPA (I needed some business and accounting credits on top of my degree), could I possibly get a recomendation into an accounting position. He said sure!

The point? Those that are stuck in perpetual admin assistant roles have an excellent pipeline into a well paying career. Your career development is up to you...and you can do it if you are aggressive enough.

I agree completely. I graduated in 1999 with a degree in Communications, which alot of people consider to be "unmarketable." I thought so myself at the time, and thought I was screwed. After doing Americorops for a year, I found an office job. It didn't pay much and it wasn't even in my field, but it paid the bills and I had health insurance, so I stuck with it. This was in late 2000. I no longer work for that first organization, but I stayed in the same industry, and my annual salary is now $20,000 more than it was when I started working in my field less than 6 years ago. In Pittsburgh, you can buy alot of stuff with an exta $20,000 since the cost of living is so low. I didn't even go back to take any extra college classes (except a computer class at the community college), I just took advantage of the free training my employer offered and earned 2 professional designations on my own time.

Meantime, I know people who secured large starting salaries shortly after graduation and were downsized shortly thereafter. So I think all of the emphasis on starting salaries is overrated.

[hotdog36]

Great thread! I completely agree that there are a lot more college grads than ever before, and therefore it is harder to move up in the corporate world. But if you are willing to work hard (and start from the bottom), you can still achieve great things (sort of like the American Dream).

[wordsmith]

First, Gen 'Y', in general, was raised in times that were more affluent than any other generation. As a result, when they graduate college, they want to live a lifestyle similar to the one they grew up in, which would require more money.

See, not the case at all for me, which probably explains my somewhat different outlook. Hell, having a regular paycheck AT ALL and employee-provided health insurance is more than my dad enjoys. My lifestyle making low 20s on my own is already more affluent than what was raised with, which was a family of six being raised on a self-employed contractor's feast (well, small snack might be more appropirate than feast)-or-famine pay schedule. I think what you describe holds true for kids of moderately to very affluent families...not so much the many college graduates who came from less comfortable beginnings. And those people are absolutely out there, and they're typically not the ones stomping around disgruntled and feeling self-righteous and entitled.

Second, this is the "self-esteem generation", and they feel that they are worth a lot more than the market rate, since they have been told that they are "special" since day one.

Well, I certainly think I'm special. Being special, however, really doesn't have much to do with basic standard salaries for a given industry in a given economy in a given region, that's just realism. Being raised being told you're worthy and special doesn't have to give people out of whack entitlement. Again, it's in how you're raised.

Third (and the only one that is warranted), recent college grads have more "real world" experience and tech-savvy than any other generation that came before them, which would make them more marketable.

I don't know. It all depends. I didn't have any experience at my current job before starting it, I learned it all on the job. And though I know my way around computer basics, I didn't have any experience with the programming/technology I had to pick up right away and utilize daily. I wouldn't say that my so-called superior tech savvy remotely entitled me to any boosts in pay on my way in the door...I'm a good writer, probably better than most in my position before me. But should they pay me more simply because of that, untested? I'm not that unrealistic.

Finally, there is much more pressure to achieve than in the past, which is mostly the fault of Boomer parents. Note the trend of parents getting involved with their kids' job applications. While it may backfire, the parents are pretty much doing so their kids can make as much money as possible as soon as possible.

Again, this is greatly individual to and dependent upon the parents, case by case. Not everyone pushes their kids that way. For every parent you can hold up who does, I can hold up ones who didn't. That's just a matter of individual personalities (and, perhaps, regional differences, but that's debatable as well).

I do see, however, proof that the monetary/career ambitions of Gen 'Y' are bearing fruit. There is strong evidence that more early-mid 20somethings are in managerial roles, and supervising people years and years older than them. There are 22 year old marketing directors, 24 year old CFO's, and 25 year old product managers all over...at established companies...not just fly-by-night operations. Whether it is significantly higher than in the past is still in question, since I haven't seen any data proving whether it is a noteable trend. But from all indications, the numbers are higher than in the past...10 years ago, a person might have had to work in something for 10-15 years to get to a career level that some kid today can get to in 3 or 4. And I am sure the monetary success is proportional to the career success.

Don't be so sure...in many cases, but not always. Case in point...On paper, my career success looks one of those wunderkind things (at, least, it seems to impress would-be suitors at a glance :rolleyes: ). Editor-in-chief of a small family of papers by 25, a year into breakign in? Papers that are over 100 years old, each, not really fly-by-night or untested/unestablished?

Career success? Check. Great experience? Absolutely. Invaluable crash course in leadership? Without a doubt. Prestigious in title? I guess so. Lucrative? Not even a little bit. But, in this case, that's not what it's about. It's learning, gathering experience, and foot in the door. It's a tradeoff.

[wordsmith]

Great thread! I completely agree that there are a lot more college grads than ever before, and therefore it is harder to move up in the corporate world. But if you are willing to work hard (and start from the bottom), you can still achieve great things (sort of like the American Dream).

Then, of course, there are those for whom the corporate world holds no appeal. And, believe it or not, they still have goals and hopes and dreams.

[wordsmith]

I also think starting out making less instills good budgeting values for later on. Most of us even though our salaries probably will increase, so will our bills and financial obligations.

Absolutely. It's obviously a fact, too, more often than not, that when you make more, you spend more.

[yankeeyosh]

Great thread! I completely agree that there are a lot more college grads than ever before, and therefore it is harder to move up in the corporate world. But if you are willing to work hard (and start from the bottom), you can still achieve great things (sort of like the American Dream).

That's another thing. During the last recession, most grads were born in 78-80, which is just at the very edge of the Echo Boom. The numbers of college grads will continue to rise through the early 10s, and that could ultimately result in a significant problem if there is an economic downfall five years from now. Right now, the economy is chugging along, so the increasing numbers of grads aren't going to have much of an impact. But when we get to 2012 and the '90 born folks, who number 25% more than the '75 born people (at the Baby Bust nadir), start to graduate, it could become a mess.

[capella]

But when we get to 2012 and the '90 born folks, who number 25% more than the '75 born people (at the Baby Bust nadir), start to graduate, it could become a mess.
Heh, a lot of my students were born in or around 1990. If they are any indication of our future academic breed we won't have much to worry about. :googly:

[Mathew]

Apologizing in advance if I manage to offend anyone who has posted to this thread, I will say that while there probably is merit to what you say, Lonestar, I knew I was in the wrong line of work when my pay & benefits were going down & a the price of a large percentage of consumer goods that I required were going up.

[wordsmith]

I knew I was in the wrong line of work when my pay & benefits were going down & a the price of a large percentage of consumer goods that I required were going up.

Well, sure...you and a large percentage of the rest of the country.

Rates of pay in a great many fields definitely do not balance out the rate of inflation in the price of consumer goods.

[Mathew]

The point I was jokingly making was that starting salaries aside, @ the very least one likes to see her or his pay & benefits increasing--not decreasing.

[hotdog36]

About my statement earlier about how having a low-wage job will hurt your future chances, I rechecked the source, and it turns out it was actually just a rant from some guy, so it wasn't too credible. Sorry about that!

[lonestar]

The point I was jokingly making was that starting salaries aside, @ the very least one likes to see her or his pay & benefits increasing--not decreasing.

I have never heard of anyone's pay actually decreasing (aside from demotions/terminations, ect.). I can understand your dollar not buying as much as it could five years ago (or in the case of gasoline, last month). But who's salary actually goes down? If that is the case you need to evaluate whether or not your employer really values you. Maybe consider another path in your field.

And for as much knocking of the corporate world there is out there, it does pay and allows some people to have a nice life. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

[MuBetaPsi_Xi]

I have never heard of anyone's pay actually decreasing (aside from demotions/terminations, ect.). I can understand your dollar not buying as much as it could five years ago (or in the case of gasoline, last month). But who's salary actually goes down? If that is the case you need to evaluate whether or not your employer really values you. Maybe consider another path in your field.

And for as much knocking of the corporate world there is out there, it does pay and allows some people to have a nice life. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.


Actually, my employer keeps increasing the contribution that employees are required to make towards our health insurance benefits. I'm sure that alot of other employers have as well. This doesn't really bother me that much because I've been getting nice raises for the past two years. However, if a hypothetical employee was required to pay more and more towards his or her health insurance and didn't receive a commensurate raise, then he or she would technically receive a pay decrease each year.

[MuBetaPsi_Xi]

There are four reasons why high starting salaries are demanded so much. First, Gen 'Y', in general, was raised in times that were more affluent than any other generation. As a result, when they graduate college, they want to live a lifestyle similar to the one they grew up in, which would require more money. Second, this is the "self-esteem generation", and they feel that they are worth a lot more than the market rate, since they have been told that they are "special" since day one. Third (and the only one that is warranted), recent college grads have more "real world" experience and tech-savvy than any other generation that came before them, which would make them more marketable. Finally, there is much more pressure to achieve than in the past, which is mostly the fault of Boomer parents. Note the trend of parents getting involved with their kids' job applications. While it may backfire, the parents are pretty much doing so their kids can make as much money as possible as soon as possible.

I do see, however, proof that the monetary/career ambitions of Gen 'Y' are bearing fruit. There is strong evidence that more early-mid 20somethings are in managerial roles, and supervising people years and years older than them. There are 22 year old marketing directors, 24 year old CFO's, and 25 year old product managers all over...at established companies...not just fly-by-night operations. Whether it is significantly higher than in the past is still in question, since I haven't seen any data proving whether it is a noteable trend. But from all indications, the numbers are higher than in the past...10 years ago, a person might have had to work in something for 10-15 years to get to a career level that some kid today can get to in 3 or 4. And I am sure the monetary success is proportional to the career success.


I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Maybe I live in the wrong part of
the wrong state, but I have generally not found any of this to be the case with most of the recent graduates with whom I have come in contact.

First off, the recent graduates I have met through professional situations do not seem any more tech-savy than anybody else I have worked with, nor do they seem to have an exceptional amount of "real world" experience. Some of them are hard workers, but some of them seem pretty clueless about how to function in a workplace environment.

Also, the very few people in their early 20's with whom I have met that have very good jobs are either engineers, or else their parents own businesses and/or have strong business connections, which enabled their offspring to secure said job. Most of the recent college graduates I know are working at jobs just as bad as or worse than the ones I had when I first graduated.

[yankeeyosh]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Maybe I live in the wrong part of
the wrong state, but I have generally not found any of this to be the case with most of the recent graduates with whom I have come in contact.

First off, the recent graduates I have met through professional situations do not seem any more tech-savy than anybody else I have worked with, nor do they seem to have an exceptional amount of "real world" experience. Some of them are hard workers, but some of them seem pretty clueless about how to function in a workplace environment.


Except for one 20 year old person, who was ultimately fired, I have yet to meet someone my age or younger who has been incompetent in the workplace. Granted, not everyone is a superstar, but I think there are more positives than negatives amongst our generation....the only thing I fear is that hiring managers may be spooked by the reports coming out about parental involvement and the loud minority who demands the big bucks right after school.


Also, the very few people in their early 20's with whom I have met that have very good jobs are either engineers, or else their parents own businesses and/or have strong business connections, which enabled their offspring to secure said job. Most of the recent college graduates I know are working at jobs just as bad as or worse than the ones I had when I first graduated.
I don't know...national surveys have shown that since 2000, college grads have been consistently making a median salary in the mid-high 30s at their first jobs, and that really didn't waver even during the recession. It's not a great salary, but considering that half are making over that amount begs the question of whether we can properly assess the state of the average college grad.

[MuBetaPsi_Xi]

Except for one 20 year old person, who was ultimately fired, I have yet to meet someone my age or younger who has been incompetent in the workplace. Granted, not everyone is a superstar, but I think there are more positives than negatives amongst our generation....the only thing I fear is that hiring managers may be spooked by the reports coming out about parental involvement and the loud minority who demands the big bucks right after school.


I don't know...national surveys have shown that since 2000, college grads have been consistently making a median salary in the mid-high 30s at their first jobs, and that really didn't waver even during the recession. It's not a great salary, but considering that half are making over that amount begs the question of whether we can properly assess the state of the average college grad.



Again, maybe I'm living in the wrong part of the country, but I haven't found this to be the case at all. I know several people who have graduated within the past two years, and they aren't doing that great. My cousin graduated in December with a bachelor's degree in finance, and he's working as a telemarketer. And at my last job, I did work with recent graduates who lacked job skills.

[Mathew]

I have never heard of anyone's pay actually decreasing (aside from demotions/terminations, ect.). I can understand your dollar not buying as much as it could five years ago (or in the case of gasoline, last month). But who's salary actually goes down? If that is the case you need to evaluate whether or not your employer really values you. Maybe consider another path in your field.

And for as much knocking of the corporate world there is out there, it does pay and allows some people to have a nice life. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

You've seriously never heard of that?

For all I know, possibly it is exclusive to the airline industry.
Between '02 to when I was laid off a year ago, I took about 35% in cuts (mgment treated themselves to 20% bonus with some of that money) which includes the increased cost of my health insurance. Some of that was actual $ out of my paycheck (including loss of one license pay, although I actually hold two), some of it can be calculated by losing a week of vacation and 4 holidays a year.

Did my employer value me (us)? Yeah, about as much as I value a used rubber. Another path? Yeah, that's what I'm all about now, but not in that field--I think I prefaced my original post by stating that "I knew I was in the wrong line of work...."

(on edit: we won't even mentions what those pieces of shit did to the defined pension paln....)

[lonestar]

Matthew, are you an airline pilot? My brother is one, and yes he had to suffer through about seven years of poor pay (starting pay for a regional airline pilot - ie, United Express, ComAIR, American Eagle, ect...) is about $24,000 a year. Starting pay for a frieght pilot is about $19,000. My brother got his IFR, CPL, Multiengine ratings and ATP certification not through the military, so he shelled out an additional $39,000 on top of college expenses. Then he had to pay to be type rated for company line planes and even then he was only scheduled as a reserve pilot and not a line pilot. I can't imagine starting off at $24,000 a year with over $90,000 in education debt and having a job that is in constant jeopardy because of union strikes or furloughs because of the instability in the airline industry.

The payoff is after you fly line for a few years and get typerated for main line fleet, you start to get raises exponentially. So if you are a pilot, stick in there...my family knows the difficulty with employment in that industry.

[Mathew]

Matthew, are you an airline pilot? My brother is one, and yes he had to suffer through about seven years of poor pay (starting pay for a regional airline pilot - ie, United Express, ComAIR, American Eagle, ect...) is about $24,000 a year. Starting pay for a frieght pilot is about $19,000. My brother got his IFR, CPL, Multiengine ratings and ATP certification not through the military, so he shelled out an additional $39,000 on top of college expenses. Then he had to pay to be type rated for company line planes and even then he was only scheduled as a reserve pilot and not a line pilot. I can't imagine starting off at $24,000 a year with over $90,000 in education debt and having a job that is in constant jeopardy because of union strikes or furloughs because of the instability in the airline industry.

The payoff is after you fly line for a few years and get typerated for main line fleet, you start to get raises exponentially. So if you are a pilot, stick in there...my family knows the difficulty with employment in that industry.

Oh hell no, I was (with WAS being the operative word) one of those scum-bag mechanics nobody thinks about when they are jetting through the friendly atmosphere @ 30,000 going 500 per in an aluminum tube. the licenses I was referring to were airframe & powerplant.

It's interesting that you bring up those salaries, although I can't say I'm particularly fond of mainline pilots, I've always thought that it's egregious what they pay the commuter & regional drivers. That's an incredible amount of responsibility they have to take, not commensurate at all with what they are paid.

But the system has 'em by the nuts. First of all, just about every pilot I have ever known truly likes what they do--I think they'd almost do it for nothing if push came to shove. Second of all, the only way to get into the right-seat of a mainline is to progress through the commuters & such, so there is a pretty good pool of ready & willing applicants. Once they are sitting in the right-hand seat of a mainline, life is generally traeting them pretty good, & when they make it into the left seat, they are set. Except, as you note, the instability of the industry.

Your advice in a previous post was solid--look for another career path. The best job in that industry is being a CEO or the vice president of one--their starting salaries are decent, & (haha) their golden parachutes after they leave an airline in shambles, are simply phenomenal.

[MuBetaPsi_Xi]

You've seriously never heard of that?

For all I know, possibly it is exclusive to the airline industry.
Between '02 to when I was laid off a year ago, I took about 35% in cuts (mgment treated themselves to 20% bonus with some of that money) which includes the increased cost of my health insurance. Some of that was actual $ out of my paycheck (including loss of one license pay, although I actually hold two), some of it can be calculated by losing a week of vacation and 4 holidays a year.

Did my employer value me (us)? Yeah, about as much as I value a used rubber. Another path? Yeah, that's what I'm all about now, but not in that field--I think I prefaced my original post by stating that "I knew I was in the wrong line of work...."

(on edit: we won't even mentions what those pieces of shit did to the defined pension paln....)

The whole thing about giving pay cuts to airline employees was a VERY big deal in Pittsburgh a few years ago. Pittsburgh USED to be (with "used to be" the key phrase here) a hub for US Airways, so as US Airways became tangled up in the mess involved with their 2 bankruptcies, ALOT of jobs were affected in this area. Our newspapers carried alot of stories about how the bankruptcy judges kept approving the pay decreases for the members of the various airline unions. I think that at one point a judge approved of a 25% pay decrease for some of the unionized employees - do I have this correct? I do know there alot of jobs were eliminated completely in the Pittsburgh area due to the bankruptcies.

[lonestar]

Yeah and how much were US Airways board of executives making during that period, and how much was there pay cut. I understand paying executives top $ to keep talent, but the airlines seem to me to be one of the most top heavy industries I can think of...Remember when United was in chap 11 while their executives voted pay raises for themselves?