Article: The Death of the Independent Bookstore

[WorkInProgress]

Thoughts?

What Are Independent Bookstores Really Good For?
Not much. (http://www.slate.com/id/2141725/)
By Tyler Cowen
Posted Monday, May 15, 2006, at 6:08 AM ET

K-A-F-K-A. That was for a Borders information clerk. "Ghana, is that in South America?" Another superstore sales assistant had never heard of the Village Voice.

Ever since the rise of the book superstore in the 1990s, we have been flooded with lamentations for the rapidly disappearing independent booksellers—cool hang-outs where the staff knows something about literature, the owners select each title with care, and bearded patrons sit at crowded coffee tables, talking about Jack Kerouac or the latest translation of Tolstoy. Thanks to the indies, it is thought, high-quality but inaccessible books can slowly build their reputations through reader word-of-mouth and eventually take the literary world by storm. This is what people fear is disappearing forever; just last week the famed Cody's of Berkeley announced it is shutting down because of Internet and superstore competition. But does this idealized vision ring true? What exactly are we losing with the passing of the independent bookstore?

Laura J. Miller's recent Reluctant Capitalists: Bookselling and the Culture of Consumption starts from the premise that "the debate over bookselling is not a trivial or isolated event … [but] can be understood as reflecting certain dissatisfactions with individual and communal well-being." She wishes to make the bookstore into a political arena. By patronizing the indies, consumers can protest excess commercialization and the proliferation of chains. It is one small way of striking back.

Miller admits and even emphasizes that the dilemma of the book superstore is not new. In the 1920s and 1930s drugstores were the new purveyors of cheap commercial books. The Book-of-the-Month Club was perceived as a villain in the postwar era. The 1960s and 1970s brought the first chain bookstores to shopping malls. At every stage a more commercialized alternative has pushed out previous means of bookselling. All the while, literacy and book availability have continued to rise. Nonetheless, Miller feels that added consciousness of our alternatives will do us some good. But how much good? I confess I am not inclined to grant culture-changing status to the indies too quickly.

Our attachment to independent bookshops is, in part, affectation—a self-conscious desire to belong a particular community (or to seem to). Patronizing indies helps us think we are more literary or more offbeat than is often the case. There are similar phenomena in the world of indie music fans ("Top 40 has to be bad") and indie cinema, which rebels against stars and big-budget special effects. In each case the indie label is a deliberate marketing ploy to segregate, often artificially, one part of the market from the rest. But when it comes to providing simple access to the products you want, the superstores often do a better job of it than the small stores do: Borders and Barnes & Noble negotiate bigger discounts from publishers and have superior computer-driven inventory systems. The superstores' scale allows them to carry many more titles, usually several times more, than do most of the independents; so if you're looking for Arabic poetry you have a better chance of finding it at Barnes & Noble than at your local community bookstore.

Clearly, though, what Miller and others fear is that the culture of literacy that indie bookstores help cultivate and nurture—the eccentric interests, the peculiar niches—will be lost in the routinized world of the superstore. Part of the value of indies was that they helped introduce us to new titles; Shakespeare & Co. in lower Manhattan features different books than does Barnes & Noble. But with the advent of the Internet, the literary world has more room for independence—if not always in its old forms—than ever before. Amazon reader reviews, blogs such as Bookslut, and eBay—the world's largest book auction market—all are flourishing and are doing so outside the reach of the major corporate booksellers. Print-on-demand technologies and self-publishing are booming. Along with Google and other search engines, they will allow niche titles to persist in our memories for a long time to come. This is the flip side of the same computerization that elevated Wal-Mart and Borders: Information technology brings more voices into book evaluation and supply.

Unfortunately, many virtues of the new order are relatively invisible. Consider the used-book market. It was much easier to find a good used bookstore 20 years ago. Yet it has never been easier to buy a good used book, with the aid of, among others, Abebooks, a superb central depot for used booksellers.

The real change in the book market is not the big guy vs. the little guy, or chain vs. indie stores. Rather, it's the reader's greater impatience, a symptom of our amazing literary (and televisual) plenitude. In the modern world we are more pressed for time, and we face a greater diversity of cultural choices. It was easy to finish Tolstoy's War and Peace when there were few other books around and it was hard to find them. Today, finishing it means forgoing many other options at our fingertips. As a result, we tend to consume ideas in smaller bits, a proposition that (in another context) economists labeled the "Alchian and Allen theorem." Long, serious novels are less culturally central than they were 100 years ago. Blogs are on the rise, and most readers prefer the ones with the shorter posts. Our greater access to books also means that each book has less time to prove itself. A small percentage of the books published account for a large share of the profits, thus setting off a race to track reader demand. Many customers want very recent best-sellers, often so they can feel they are reading something trendy, something other people are talking about. Of course, that's its own kind of affectation—and not an entirely pleasing one.

But bolstering the indies will not reverse any of these trends, nor are the chain stores to blame for their spread. The indies themselves aren't always paragons of cultural virtue, either. One indie owner quoted in Reluctant Capitalists notes that he keeps book prices high "not from greed but as a way of reflecting what he sees as their worth as cultural artifacts." (On that basis, how can he possibly sell a paperback volume of Proust for $15.00?) Many of the smaller indies have financed themselves by selling, in a separate part of the store, pornography; indie stores are not all intellectual powerhouses like Powell's in Portland, considered by many to be the best bookstore in the United States. For better or worse, they are commercial entities just like the superstores. In this case, being David to the superstores' Goliath doesn't always mean that they ought to win out.

If you don't like the superstores, it is easy enough to expand your viewing horizons through other means. Just go to new sections of your superstore (the best popular book on geology, gardening, or basketball is very good, whether or not you like the topic). Stoop or stretch to slightly uncomfortable levels. Use the stool. Peruse books randomly. Look at other peoples' discard piles. Spend more time in public libraries, which offer many of the best features of indie bookshops, including informed staff, diversity, and offbeat titles. Of course, public libraries aren't exactly atmospherically "cool." The clientele is often young children, women over 40, and retired men. I visit five public libraries on a regular basis, and each one makes me feel old. But they deliver the goods.

[wordsmith]

This dovetails nicely with the WalMart thread...

I'm sure when Jen is on, she'll have some things to say.

By the way, I dispute that public libraries aren't cool. They're among my favorite places in the world.

[pisces2473]

Let's not even go there...

ETA--Jess, we must have posted at the same time!

Oh I have a LOT to say, especially now...but I have to get back to work ;)

[wordsmith]

Hah, or maybe she won't! :P

[pisces2473]

Oh I have plenty of things to say...but you know, given my past experience of talking about my job on the web, I'm going to have to sit this one out...

Or, later when I have more time, I can say some things in a very general way.

[wordsmith]

I'm sure you can offer pearls of wisdom without naming names.

[pisces2473]

Give me some time, woman! I need to let the creative juices flow... :huge:

[lonestar]

While I know that there are several independent bookstores closing, I also know of more than a few who are doing quite well...it seems to me that small town indy bookstores actually do ok...maybe the combination of small overhead and eclectic charm drive these shops. While companies like B&N seem to be industry giants, I wouldn't say they have killed all indies...and some indies have responded to the challenge well (take a look at Bookpeople in Austin!)

As for amazon.com, I have used it but prefer going to a place and actually buying the book...the only advantage online ordering has for me was half.com for used textbooks because Follett Co. jacked up their prices on used textbooks so much...I could easily find a textbook on half.com for $20 that the university bookstore was selling for $57 (used!).

[wordsmith]

Depends on where they are, Lonestar.

I'll trust you don't actually consider Austin to be a small town.

[pisces2473]

Exactly, Jess.

Lonestar, maybe you should do some more research about bookstores, 'kay?

[lonestar]

My mother and my stepfather are opening a used independant bookstore in central PA... I think you will find many good indies still open, Pisces...like I said before, there is a substantial base of customers to support these operations. Because a few have closed does not mean that indie bookstores are failing all over...

Check out a place like Front Street Books in Alpine...its a freakin gold mine...Talking Leaves in Buffalo routinely outperforms the B&N college bookstore located right down the street because it is strategically placed to attract UB students with a nice atmosphere - not to mention the popular Elmwood Location.

[Kitty]

I don't really know much about this issue...

But as a consumer and reader of books..I try to get all books at the library. If I can't find it at the library, then I'll buy it on Amazon used.

I personally like amazon better than any bookstore (don't kill me, just my opinion).

[wordsmith]

I think you will find many good indies still open

I think "many" is a stretch, particularly in comparison to the proliferation of chains. How could that NOT be the case. You DO find the odd indie sprinkled around here and there. We even have a great little one out here in the boonies, in a neighboring town, population 7,000. But how long it will remain in business is anybody's guess...for that one that's stayed open, I can name a good five off the top of my head that have closed. If you're not a college town, good luck.

[lonestar]

I must admit I do love Borders because you can listen to the CDs before you buy them and there book supply is a lot better than B&N but I still think indies have the best atmosphere.

[wordsmith]

I personally like amazon better than any bookstore (don't kill me, just my opinion).

I was thinking about this when reading the article. I'm NOT a person who buys books on Amazon...I hate online bookshopping, because for me, it's the experience of going to the bookstore itself that is the treat. Not the actual purchase. I may not even BUY things, I just love being in bookstores. I could stay all day. Libraries, too.

[lonestar]

I think "many" is a stretch, particularly in comparison to the proliferation of chains. How could that NOT be the case. You DO find the odd indie sprinkled around here and there. We even have a great little one out here in the boonies, in a neighboring town, population 7,000. But how long it will remain in business is anybody's guess...for that one that's stayed open, I can name a good five off the top of my head that have closed. If you're not a college town, good luck.

That's probably true wordsmith...my mom's new planned bookstore is right near a college campus, and all the best indies I have been to are near a campus...but honestly that's the market...I hate to sound elitist, but intellectuals are the target demographic for indies. Where you have college campi, you have intellectuals (for the most part)...

[pisces2473]

My mother and my stepfather are opening a used independant bookstore in central PA...
I think all used bookstores are independent.

I think you will find many good indies still open, Pisces...like I said before, there is a substantial base of customers to support these operations. Because a few have closed does not mean that indie bookstores are failing all over...
I really don't think I'm one to argue with about independent bookstores...since I work at one. Did you read the Publisher's Weekly article about March sales being down?

Bookstore sales dropped 3.9% in March, to $1.04 billion, according to estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau. The decline followed a 1.7% drop in February, which together with the weak March nearly offset the 4.4% sales increase posted in January. For the first quarter, bookstore sales were up 0.7%, to $4.23 billion. Sales for the entire retail segment were up 8.2% for the quarter, and 7.6% for the month.

[wordsmith]

How is it that chain bookstores are able to make a go of it, then, in areas without colleges?

[Kitty]

I was thinking about this when reading the article. I'm NOT a person who buys books on Amazon...I hate online bookshopping, because for me, it's the experience of going to the bookstore itself that is the treat. Not the actual purchase. I may not even BUY things, I just love being in bookstores. I could stay all day. Libraries, too.

I like amazon because you can read other people's reviews, you can look inside the books, they constantly give you recommendations of other books you may like, people have interesting listmania's...etc. and they're pretty much ANY book you can ever think of on there. Plus, they're cheap.

I'm more of a coffee-shop person than a bookstore person.

I do like bookstores for the magazines though.

[lonestar]

How is it that chain bookstores are able to make a go of it, then, in areas without colleges?

because of low prices, bestseller cookie cutter books ie. "Da Vinci Code" and mass markets. low margin, high volume...

as opposed to the "non-discount" model of indie bookstores.

[wordsmith]

I like amazon because you can read other people's reviews, you can look inside the books, they constantly give you recommendations of other books you may like, people have interesting listmania's...etc. and they're pretty much ANY book you can ever think of on there. Plus, they're cheap.

I'm more of a coffee-shop person than a bookstore person.

I do like bookstores for the magazines though.

Oh, I read reviews, both online and print, and recommendations...I just would rather actually go hang out in a bookstore. Bonus if it has coffee, which most indies did long before B&N and Borders jumped on that bandwagon.

[pisces2473]

it's the experience of going to the bookstore itself that is the treat. Not the actual purchase. I may not even BUY things, I just love being in bookstores. I could stay all day. Libraries, too.
See, this is the problem. People use bookstores as their personal libraries and research centers. They don't buy stuff, but take advantage of our research skills and knowledge about books. They'll say "Oh you don't have that in stock? I'll just try the B&N in (another town)." We can special order anything but people don't want to wait. They want instant gratification and free stuff. They sit in the travel section and copy out information instead of buying the damn book. Then when indies close, they whine about what a gem the store was to the community. Well, then why don't they support this gem???

[wordsmith]

because of low prices, bestseller cookie cutter books ie. "Da Vinci Code" and mass markets. low margin, high volume...

Right, but indies sell those, too, and big chains sell niche books, as well.

If people in a community will go to a chain bookstore, they'll go to an independent bookstore (particularly if it has an appealing atmosphere).

[lonestar]

I think it has to do with B&N and Borders et al. being able to afford 30% price cuts on every book because they push so much, and also being able to carry every popular book imagineable so people can go there and look at everything...again, high volume, mass appeal, low prices...same way Wal-Mart beats competitors...

I like indies, but they cater to a different segment.

[wordsmith]

See, this is the problem. People use bookstores as their personal libraries and research centers. They don't buy stuff, but take advantage of our research skills and knowledge about books. They'll say "Oh you don't have that in stock? I'll just try the B&N in (another town)." We can special order anything but people don't want to wait. They want instant gratification and free stuff. They sit in the travel section and copy out information instead of buying the damn book. Then when indies close, they whine about what a gem the store was to the community. Well, then why don't they support this gem???

But I browse in all stores, Jen. Doesn't mean I'm not patronizing/supporting them. I also will recommend a store to others, if I like it, and send additional business their way via word of mouth. Or maybe write a feature story on the store, or a business review. You can support businesses without dropping loads of cash every time you're there.

I may not buy a thing on one trip, but my next trip buy $100 worth of books. Then the next time, just come and browse and see what's new. Repeat customers who enjoy your store and come often, whether or not they drop a lot of money each time, are going to balance out over time and be valuable customers in the long run.

[pisces2473]

because of low prices, bestseller cookie cutter books ie. "Da Vinci Code" and mass markets. low margin, high volume...

as opposed to the "non-discount" model of indie bookstores.
This is true...Da Vinci Code in paper was the #1 bestseller at B&N and Walmart. At indies, nope. Partly because most people who shop indies have money and were able to afford it when it was in hardcover. People with lesser income will wait til it's in paper--mass or trade version--and get it then. I have people come in a month after a hardcover comes out, wondering when it'll be out in paper. It's about a year btwn hard and paper and they don't want to spend the extra $$ on the hardcover.

Now with gas prices going up, people are cutting "luxuries" out of their budgets. This includes books.

[pisces2473]

But I browse in all stores, Jen. Doesn't mean I'm not patronizing/supporting them. I also will recommend a store to others, if I like it, and send additional business their way via word of mouth. Or maybe write a feature story on the store, or a business review. You can support businesses without dropping loads of cash every time you're there.

I may not buy a thing on one trip, but my next trip buy $100 worth of books. Then the next time, just come and browse and see what's new. Repeat customers who enjoy your store and come often, whether or not they drop a lot of money each time, are going to balance out over time and be valuable customers in the long run.
Oh I know what you mean...and that's fine...but it's the repeat offenders that are wickedly annoying.

[Kitty]

See, this is the problem. People use bookstores as their personal libraries and research centers. They don't buy stuff, but take advantage of our research skills and knowledge about books. They'll say "Oh you don't have that in stock? I'll just try the B&N in (another town)." We can special order anything but people don't want to wait. They want instant gratification and free stuff. They sit in the travel section and copy out information instead of buying the damn book. Then when indies close, they whine about what a gem the store was to the community. Well, then why don't they support this gem???

I understand the frustration..but as a consumer, what is the motivation to buy from a bookstore that charges 10 times what you can get the book for on Amazon? Or, if you can get the info for free..why pay?

It seems like there has to be a better solution then blaiming the customer...because honestly, if most people can get it for free or cheaper somewhere else, that's what they're going to do.

[lonestar]

It seems like there has to be a better solution then blaiming the customer...because honestly, if most people can get it for free or cheaper somewhere else, that's what they're going to do.

This is my point: some people just want to buy books and don't care what other amenities the bookstore provides (coffee, nice atmosphere)...for them, B&N/Borders are the logical choice because of price and convenience.

For others, independant bookstores are the only way to go and would never be caught dead in chains.

Its two different market segments...While indies may take a hit, there will always be customers who prefer the indie...but it needs to be in a place where those people are and those places are usually near colleges or research towns, ect...heavily intellectual bases.

[pisces2473]

I understand the frustration..but as a consumer, what is the motivation to buy from a bookstore that charges 10 times what you can get the book for on Amazon? Or, if you can get the info for free..why pay?

It seems like there has to be a better solution then blaiming the customer...because honestly, if most people can get it for free or cheaper somewhere else, that's what they're going to do.
Well, if no one buys from us, we won't be around to offer the free advice.

It's SOOOO annoying when a customer says "I heard of this book on the radio, it's about a dog and a man..." and then we look it up and tell them we can order it, and they say "Oh no, I'm going to order it on Amazon, but I just wanted to know what the title was. I couldn't remember."

That's like a slap in the face.

ETA:
I'm at another computer now, because I'm covering someone's lunch, but on my way down here I saw something. In our parenting section, a woman is sitting on the floor, cross-legged, teeny tiny infant on her lap...when I had walked by her earlier this morning, it appeared that she was nursing her baby, while reading a book on nursing (I saw a drawing in the book of a baby at a breast). She was still there, an hour later, on her cell phone, chatting away. We're not your lactation library! If she buys a book, fine, but don't come in to nurse your baby while reading a book on doing it!

[wordsmith]

I think it has to do with B&N and Borders et al. being able to afford 30% price cuts on every book because they push so much, and also being able to carry every popular book imagineable so people can go there and look at everything...again, high volume, mass appeal, low prices...same way Wal-Mart beats competitors...

Which was my point with my first post.

I like indies, but they cater to a different segment.

The same way locally owned coffeehouses cater to a different segment than Starbucks...and neighborhood bistros cater to a different segment than Macaroni Grill...

[lonestar]

Plus, you really can't blame customers and big box on this one because that is the free market: in some areas of the country, price point will dominate and their will be some thinning of indie bookstores. In other areas where price point/convenience take a backseat to environment, niche selection, ect...indies will prevail, and as I said earlier it will most probably be in areas where there is a college. Economics pure and simple...

[Kitty]

Well, if no one buys from us, we won't be around to offer the free advice.

It's SOOOO annoying when a customer says "I heard of this book on the radio, it's about a dog and a man..." and then we look it up and tell them we can order it, and they say "Oh no, I'm going to order it on Amazon, but I just wanted to know what the title was. I couldn't remember."

That's like a slap in the face.

Again, I understand the frustration..but I still don't see any motivation to buy the book when you know you get can it cheaper somewhere else.

I personally don't go to bookstores without the sole intention of buying something - a book I couldn't find at the library, or a book I need ASAP (can't wait for it to ship to me). I rarely go there to just get free info or browse.

I think indie bookstores just need to get smarter about how they do business. For example, there was an indie bookstore where I went to school who got a deal with the Literature department at my university..and they special ordered all books for all courses. You went to the bookstore, and they would have a bag of books for the course you were taking and you could just buy the bag. It was convenient, you got a discount, and the literature professors special ordered the editions and recommended everyone go there.

[wordsmith]

It seems like there has to be a better solution then blaiming the customer...because honestly, if most people can get it for free or cheaper somewhere else, that's what they're going to do.

Well, they may or they may not...depends on the person...some people, like me, would rather actually go and spend time in the store. Some will buy a hardcover over a paperback for three times as much, because they like owning "nicer" books. Some will buy versus check out at the library, because they want to own it, have it on their shelves, same as people buy DVDs rather than just rent them. Everyone's different.

[pisces2473]

I do agree with the needing to be near a campus. Unfortunately, we aren't, but there are some private secondary schools who do all of their buying through us. So that does help.

[pisces2473]

Another problem is that people don't care about bringing down the corporations. They only care about the bottom line, which is also what the corporations care about--for themselves. Which makes big box bookstores JUST like Walmart.

[lonestar]

I do agree with the needing to be near a campus. Unfortunately, we aren't, but there are some private secondary schools who do all of their buying through us. So that does help.

It totally does...Front Street Books, the place I mentioned earlier is in a town (Alpine) of 5,000 people. It does really well, though because it draws all the students over from Sul Ross State University and the arts community in Marfa. Also places like State College, PA, Lewisburg, PA, Geneseo, NY are havens for indies because of their respective colleges (Penn State, Buchnell and SUNY Geneseo).

[Kitty]

Well, they may or they may not...depends on the person...some people, like me, would rather actually go and spend time in the store. Some will buy a hardcover over a paperback for three times as much, because they like owning "nicer" books. Some will buy versus check out at the library, because they want to own it, have it on their shelves, same as people buy DVDs rather than just rent them. Everyone's different.

Those people are in the minority though. The majority of America wants things for cheap. Obviously, if there were more people willing to buy nice books and patronize indie bookstores for the experience...those indie bookstores wouldn't be in financial trouble.

[wordsmith]

Plus, you really can't blame customers and big box on this one because that is the free market: in some areas of the country, price point will dominate and their will be some thinning of indie bookstores. In other areas where price point/convenience take a backseat to environment, niche selection, ect...indies will prevail, and as I said earlier it will most probably be in areas where there is a college. Economics pure and simple...

Well, obviously, and this is the reason why small businesses that give communities character are closing up...it's clearly an economics-driven venture that large corporate conglomerates beat up the little guy. Everyone KNOWS that.

The question is, which the article asks, if there is any MERIT to the little guy staying in business...are independent, non-corporate businesses important to the character and flavor of our communities, is it important that we support local entrepreneurs and businesses that are locally owned and run, etc.? I think, to America as a whole, the answer is no. We (as a whole) don't really care that much about our communities, our local businesses, our individuality, etc., we're more than willing to give those things up. And that's awfully sad.

[pisces2473]

Very well said, Jess. Thanks.

[lonestar]

Another problem is that people don't care about bringing down the corporations. They only care about the bottom line, which is also what the corporations care about--for themselves. Which makes big box bookstores JUST like Walmart.

But how can you blame Borders and B&N? As we said earlier, there are people who care about price and people who care about quality...Borders/B&N cater to the price point watchers...and there's nothing wrong with that...it's capitalism at work. As long as some people care about quality (and there will always be those people) indies will stick around (they may dwindle in number, but thats market forces).

[pisces2473]

But how can you blame Borders and B&N? As we said earlier, there are people who care about price and people who care about quality...Borders/B&N cater to the price point watchers...and there's nothing wrong with that...it's capitalism at work. As long as some people care about quality (and there will always be those people) indies will stick around (they may dwindle in number, but thats market forces).
Would you argue the same thing about Walmart???

[Kitty]

It just seems hypocritical to me - as I know both of you shop at Target and the like.

[lonestar]

The question is, which the article asks, if there is any MERIT to the little guy staying in business...are independent, non-corporate businesses important to the character and flavor of our communities, is it important that we support local entrepreneurs and businesses that are locally owned and run, etc.? I think, to America as a whole, the answer is no. We (as a whole) don't really care that much about our communities, our local businesses, our individuality, etc., we're more than willing to give those things up. And that's awfully sad.

It has nothing to do with merit...it's do or don't...does the free market allow you to survive?

[lonestar]

Would you argue the same thing about Walmart???

I hate Wal-Mart because of the crap they sell, but you cannot find fault with their economic model: high volume low margin works under the current market trends...

[wordsmith]

What we're voicing, though, Lonestar, is being disturbed by the fact that capitalism at that scale can be at serious odds with the so-called American dream. More often than not, it crushes the entrepreneurial spirit, and has the power to change the face of our communities in negative ways.

[wordsmith]

It has nothing to do with merit...it's do or don't...does the free market allow you to survive?

It has everything to do with merit...the value that we place on things...is it more important to save a buck, or preserve the character of our communties' commerce? That has everything to do with values and merit.

[Kitty]

What we're voicing, though, Lonestar, is being disturbed by the fact that capitalism at that scale can be at serious odds with the so-called American dream. More often than not, it crushes the entrepreneurial spirit, and has the power to change the face of our communities in negative ways.

I agree. However, it seems to me numerous times in the thread that the consumer was being blaimed for not patronizing indie bookstores. I really don't think the burden needs to fall on th consumer. The burden needs to fall on anti-trust laws and trade regulations from the government.

[pisces2473]

It just seems hypocritical to me - as I know both of you shop at Target and the like.
And so do you ;) I gave up Walmart and use Target instead.

IMO, our civilization is lacking culture. We don't read anymore, we watch TV all of the time. We care more about who's screwing whom, who's pregnant than we do about which Senator supports the war or who's running for President. I'd rather support bookstores who know their stuff, who care about their communities and who believes in reading.

B&N doesn't care about reading. I should know, I worked there for a few months. Where I work now, I have SO many more opportunities to know about books than I ever did at B&N.

[wordsmith]

It just seems hypocritical to me - as I know both of you shop at Target and the like.

Well, I actually really only go to those stores for things I can't get anywhere else, because they already drove them out of business. When I can buy things elsewhere, I do. When I can purchase things without leaving my town, I do (WalMart and Target being the next town, 12 miles away)...but there is only so much I can buy locally, because those stores have driven the locals out of business. Which is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Supporting the little guy when you have the option to do so, before it's taken away from you.

[lonestar]

but you're idea of harm to the community is not someone else's idea of harm: while you may not like the big box and its effects on a local economy, others like the low prices and products they provide. And co-existance does occur...it may be harder to beat the big box in terms of business competition, but it can be done (stores that are not big boxes are still around, maybe in metro areas rather than rural/smaller towns but there is still a place for them in the market).

[Kitty]

And so do you ;)

Yeah, but I'm not the one getting mad at people for buying books cheaper from somewhere else.

[Kitty]

You seriously can't expect people to pay more money for things in an effort to put down the corporations. That theory will never work, however nice it is.

This is really up to laws, regulations, etc. It's a MUCH larger scale.

[wordsmith]

but you're idea of harm to the community is not someone else's idea of harm: while you may not like the big box and its effects on a local economy, others like the low prices and products they provide.

But it's a question of short-term personal savings versus long-term community blight. Speaking from the perspective of the community I live in, which had its local commerce sucked dry by big box stores 12 miles away...People might thing that's it's awesome to get saline solution for $.99 rather than the $1.99 at the local family owned drug store (even if they have to put gas in their cars to drive 24 miles further to do it, curiously), or be able to buy everything in one store versus having to hit three stores that are within feet of one another, but everyone bitches about how embarrassing it is to live in a scuzzy looking town with all those "ugly" empty storefronts, and how "there's nothing to do" in town. Um, folks, YOU did it. You didn't support your community, and now there's no community left for you. You made the tradeoff, without considering the longterm.

[Kitty]

At the very least, these issues need to be addressed on a community-scale. For example, communities that ban fast-food in their city..etc. You can NEVER expect some sort of individual boycott of all corporate goods..that won't work and you can't get upset at people because they bought something cheaper. People aren't going to be thinking, "Shit, I'm supporting corporations and destroying all independent stores" every single time they buy something. It's just not going to happen.

[wordsmith]

I agree, and obviously there isn't really ANY fighting big business...look at our country, look at our administration...that's a no-brainer.

But the sad end result is that it's a conscious choice that ultimately ends in losing things that are individual to and important to the character of our communities.

[summergold]

I worked in an indie place through high school and during breaks in college. It was quite possibly the best job I've ever had. It was a very successful store. Mainly because they sold current titles at a discount and took 10% off all titles in the store (more for best sellers). We were able to do this by working a deal with distributors and being extremely customer oriented. That and we actually had staff that wouldn't look at you as if you had three heads when asking for suggestions of other good books. The store I worked for has recently fallen on hard times. Mostly because of the hurricanes that hit last fall (the store is outside of Atlanta). The distributors had to increase prices to pay for their shipping, consumer sentiment in the region went down, etc. etc. That being said, I don't necessarily see the big box stores or super bookstores as the devil. The main problem is that publishers are severely overinflating the prices of books. A paperback book should not cost $8, nor should a hardback book cost $32. As an indie store, it's extremely difficult to overcome the sticker shock of the customer. As a large store, you can offset those costs much more easily than a small store. There are also large-scale distribution deals that the large stores have with the publishers. The indie stores are still going to continue suffering as long as the large publishing houses continue to ignore them and treat them as bastard step-children, even though the people who buy at indies are quite possibly their largest group of consumers.

[pisces2473]

Yeah, but I'm not the one getting mad at people for buying books cheaper from somewhere else.
Wouldn't you be made if your salary and job security depended on it? We just got a letter on Friday, detailing HOW bad business has been and that some jobs might be cut if sales don't increase. Guess who might be the first to go?

I'm getting mad because it's a personal thing.

[EmberMae]

I've never actually seen an indie bookstore that I can remember, except maybe a used paperback exchange. I did go to BookPeople in Austin, but I did not notice any significant differences from B&N or Borders. I tend to get most of my books from the public library. I think the library is a wonderful resource that more people need to take advantage of. The reference librarians will help with research and suggest books to you as it's their job. My local library is working on modernizing, they're renovating and adding to the building, including a coffee shop. Another library nearby has done the same thing, it's really nice. Unfortunately in this area of the country budgets are pretty tight for public services so we don't have the greatest selection. Lots of the stuff I'm interested in is not very mainstream so I buy it on amazon.com. Amazon has an uncomparably superior selection to any bookstore I've ever seen and they offer big discounts plus no sales tax and no shipping fee if you order over $25.

[Kitty]

Wouldn't you be made if your salary and job security depended on it? We just got a letter on Friday, detailing HOW bad business has been and that some jobs might be cut if sales don't increase. Guess who might be the first to go?

I'm getting mad because it's a personal thing.

I get why you're upset...I just think you're getting mad at the wrong entity (i.e. the people). It's a bigger issue and I think it's hypocritical to get mad when we all shop at Target and the like. I'm sure there are ma and pa stores that are furious at people who shop at Target. We are all a part of this problem.

[wordsmith]

Wouldn't you be made if your salary and job security depended on it? We just got a letter on Friday, detailing HOW bad business has been and that some jobs might be cut if sales don't increase. Guess who might be the first to go?

I'm getting mad because it's a personal thing.

And, really, that's what it takes for people to get incensed about stuff...when it becomes personal. I'm sure that a larger force impacting your livelihood would get the same reaction from you, Kitty.

[pisces2473]

The main problem is that publishers are severely overinflating the prices of books. A paperback book should not cost $8, nor should a hardback book cost $32. As an indie store, it's extremely difficult to overcome the sticker shock of the customer. As a large store, you can offset those costs much more easily than a small store. There are also large-scale distribution deals that the large stores have with the publishers. The indie stores are still going to continue suffering as long as the large publishing houses continue to ignore them and treat them as bastard step-children, even though the people who buy at indies are quite possibly their largest group of consumers.
Thank you. :) Fortunately at my store, we do get a lot of respect from the pubs...but it could (and should) be better. The reason that book prices are so high is because "diva" authors demand the royal treatment for their tours, huge publicity campaigns, etc. Ask Red--she's in publishing. We have to supplement our income with things like author events, but people treat those as free entertainment. We rarely charge for author events, but we really like people to buy the books. And they should. The only reason we are able to bring authors to our store is because people buy their books and the pubs know we're good for sales. When people ask if the book has to be purchased to come to an event, we say that we prefer that people buy it. If the books don't sell, we don't get authors.

[Kitty]

And, really, that's what it takes for people to get incensed about stuff...when it becomes personal. I'm sure that a larger force impacting your livelihood would get the same reaction from you, Kitty.

I never said I wouldn't be upset..jeez. I'm just saying I think it's targeted at the wrong entity.

[Kitty]

AND I think it's hyporctical to get upset at the people when we are ALL doing the same thing. We ALL patronize non-indie establishments. And most of the time its because of convenience or price.

[wordsmith]

No, Kitty, I'm not upset. And, I'm not disagreeing with you.

I just do think that what we value most (personally saving a few bucks at the expense of supporting the little guy) is reflected in the ways many of our communities are, in my opinion, declining.

If we don't see enough value in the things that make our communities unique, and in the ability of the ordinary entrepreneur to realize his or her own ambitions, that's that. And that's really what I do see.

[Kitty]

No, Kitty, I'm not upset. And, I'm not disagreeing with you.

I just do think that what we value most (personally saving a few bucks at the expense of supporting the little guy) is reflected in the ways many of our communities are, in my opinion, declining.

If we don't see enough value in the things that make our communities unique, and in the ability of the ordinary entrepreneur to realize his or her own ambitions, that's that. And that's really what I do see.

I totally get what you're saying. I just think that the solution isn't expecting people to support the little guy. I think the real support for the little guy needs to come from the government..in the form of tax-breaks, laws that help protect them, and stop corporations from becoming insanely huge monopolies.

[wordsmith]

We would have to elect people who weren't MADE by the big guys, for that to happen.

[Kitty]

We would have to elect people who weren't MADE by the big guys, for that to happen.

I know. It's a huge problem...and I think we're all on the same page about that. I just don't think it's fair to point the finger at the consumer - unless we're willing to point the finger at ourselves.

[pisces2473]

Uh oh...my boss just found out about the Slate article. She's NOT happy.

[wordsmith]

Oh, for sure...but it's a what came first, chicken or egg thing...you can't shop indies if big box stores already ran them out of town...they've succeeded in the monopoly. So often, people who WOULD buy independent have no other recourse.

But, individual consumers DO have to commit to supporting independent business owners whenever possible...no way around that. Whether or not it will happen, it's the most viable solution...community support. Consumers tend to be fairly shortsighted.

[Kitty]

I know, I think it's so awesome how there's this wave of communities in California that are completely banning fast food.

[and1grad]

I dont think of it as a community issue as much as its just economics. Communities arent really known for being loyal to stores just b/c they know the owner. I think what happens is a store fits some niche, and when that niche no longer exists, it has to find another or risk going under. Its always been about the bottom line. That isnt a new occurrence. We talk about indie bookstores but what store did that indie bookstore put out of business? You have to find a way to make your store stand out. Jen mentioned author signings earlier as a way. Places have added coffee houses to their stores among other ways. IMO, its just the nature of the beast.

[Kitty]

It's a good point about how in a lot of cases there aren't even indie establishments to patronize. I wouldn't even know where to go.

But again, I think this is a larger problem..not enough money/breaks being given to people wanting to start businesses.

Isn't it crazy how much the American landscape has changed in the past 20 years? I remember when I was little every block of the city I lived in looked different - different video rental places, different restaurants, etc. Now, you drive down the street and you see the same 15 businesses over and over (subway, jamba juice, starbucks, safeway, etc.) And all of America looks like that. Sometimes I just feel like, what's the point of traveling anywhere within the US - everything is beginning to look the same.

[wordsmith]

I dont think of it as a community issue as much as its just economics. Communities arent really known for being loyal to stores just b/c they know the owner.

This is a major, major, major difference between small town/larger city dynamics. In smaller communities, prior to the advent of big box stores, and to some, but notably lesser extent, still, it's ALL about personal connection. It's how entrepreneurship works, and vital to the social infrastructure of the community, even. Small communities are vastly more about the personal touch. But that's shifting (and sprawl is a factor, for sure, but that's a whole other thread).

[lonestar]

First of all, to say it is a monopoly is a gross miscalculation...the DOJ wouldn't allow it...I grant you that in some smaller towns its a big box vs. big box scenario where Walmart faces Target faces Best Buy faces Circuit City ect...but lets not forget that for every one large corporation there are nine sole proprietorships (yes you can look that up according to a breakdown of our economy from the US state department website 90% of American businesses are sole proprietorships). Interestingly, according to State Department stats, small enterprises account for 52% of American workers. While many samll businesses fail, every day, many are created each day so that there has been a steady equilibrium in market breakdown for the last ten years.

While this may not be fully realized in small towns, there is much more too it than that. Perhaps big boxes dominate in retail areas, but small businesses do well in other industries where margins are higher (medical, is one instances there are a lot of private practices)...so, as for crushing entreprenurial spirit, I would say there are always opportunities for entreprenuers given they benchmark their industry.

[Kitty]

It's just different target markets. But, if you want to be really successful and expand, then you're going to have to go after the larger market.

[pisces2473]

I dont think of it as a community issue as much as its just economics. Communities arent really known for being loyal to stores just b/c they know the owner.
Around here, people come to this store because of our owner. She's made a name for herself in the area.

We talk about indie bookstores but what store did that indie bookstore put out of business? You have to find a way to make your store stand out. Jen mentioned author signings earlier as a way. Places have added coffee houses to their stores among other ways. IMO, its just the nature of the beast.
There was no bookstore in this area, before the one I work at came into being. We've got a great cafe, we do a lot of events, we do a lot of specialty orders. But sales are still down.

[wordsmith]

Isn't it crazy how much the American landscape has changed in the past 20 years? I remember when I was little every block of the city I lived in looked different - different video rental places, different restaurants, etc. Now, you drive down the street and you see the same 15 businesses over and over (subway, jamba juice, starbucks, safeway, etc.) And all of America looks like that. Sometimes I just feel like, what's the point of traveling anywhere within the US - everything is beginning to look the same.

Totally agree, with one correction. All of America doesn't quite look like that. Here, if you look down the street, for instance, you don't see that...you see a bunch of empty storefronts. :( Those chains don't locate in small communities. They locate in the nearest bigger city, but still have enough pull to put the smaller towns' stuff out of business.

I personally really despise everything looking - and BEING - the same.

[pisces2473]

It's just different target markets. But, if you want to be really successful and expand, then you're going to have to go after the larger market.
But you can't if the larger stores are taking your market. It's not that cut and dry.

[Kitty]

First of all, to say it is a monopoly is a gross miscalculation...the DOJ wouldn't allow it...I grant you that in some smaller towns its a big box vs. big box scenario where Walmart faces Target faces Best Buy faces Circuit City ect...but lets not forget that for every one large corporation there are nine sole proprietorships (yes you can look that up according to a breakdown of our economy from the US state department website 90% of American businesses are sole proprietorships). Interestingly, according to State Department stats, small enterprises account for 52% of American workers. While many samll businesses fail, every day, many are created each day so that there has been a steady equilibrium in market breakdown for the last ten years.

While this may not be fully realized in small towns, there is much more too it than that. Perhaps big boxes dominate in retail areas, but small businesses do well in other industries where margins are higher (medical, is one instances there are a lot of private practices)...so, as for crushing entreprenurial spirit, I would say there are always opportunities for entreprenuers given they benchmark their industry.

To say what isn't a monopoly? I forget what the exact statistic is..but it's something like 5 companies own 95% of business in America.

[Kitty]

But you can't if the larger stores are taking your market. It's not that cut and dry.

If you can't offer the market you're trying to go after anything..then you're going to fail. It is that cut and dry because that's the nature of how our economy is set up. If you want to change it, you're going to have to completely alter the way business is done in America.

[pisces2473]

If you can't offer the market you're trying to go after anything..then you're going to fail. It is that cut and dry because that's the nature of how our economy is set up. If you want to change it, you're going to have to completely alter the way business is done in America.
Yeah, and that's what Jessie and I have been arguing about for 5 pages.

[wordsmith]

Perhaps big boxes dominate in retail areas, but small businesses do well in other industries where margins are higher (medical, is one instances there are a lot of private practices)...

Ohhhh, but even those are going quickly corporate...even in small towns. The small hospital I was born in several years ago became part of the OSF Medical "family," which is based downstate.

[Kitty]

Yeah, and that's what Jessie and I have been arguing about for 5 pages.


No you haven't. You have been arguing that it's the consumer's burden.

[wordsmith]

Yeah, and that's what Jessie and I have been arguing about for 5 pages.

Exactly...the entire PROBLEM is how business is done in America, and how it undermines the success of all but the fattest cats...thus coming pretty close to guaranteeing failure, pretty much, for the majority of the citizenry unless they choose to go corporate. Which of course makes it not a true "choice," at all.

[lonestar]

Ohhhh, but even those are going quickly corporate...even in small towns. The small hospital I was born in several years ago became part of the OSF Medical "family," which is based downstate.

But take a look at the macroscopic level of the economy. As an engine, it needs corporations just as much as it needs sole proprietorships and small businesses...shifting will occur invariably and may hurt in certain areas...that's a part of economics...consider butchers. People treated supermarkets in the 70s like they do bog boxes today...did supermarkets really hurt the American economic engine...I certainly don't think so...

[Kitty]

Exactly...the entire PROBLEM is how business is done in America, and how it undermines the success of all but the fattest cats...thus coming pretty close to guaranteeing failure, pretty much, for the majority of the citizenry unless they choose to go corporate. Which of course makes it not a true "choice," at all.

Again, I think we're all on the same page about that. The only reason I started to argue is that I don't think the solution lies in expecting the consumer to take on the responsibility. I think at the very least its a community issue and on a larger-scale it's a government/political issue.

That's all.

[wordsmith]

No you haven't. You have been arguing that it's the consumer's burden.

No, just that consumers, through shortsightedness when it comes to far-reaching community impacts do play an active role in the decline of the success and viability of smaller businesses.

[pisces2473]

No you haven't. You have been arguing that it's the consumer's burden.
But it is. Consumers are the ones who make choices to care less and less about their communities.

[pisces2473]

No, just that consumers, through shortsightedness when it comes to far-reaching community impacts do play an active role in the decline of the success and viability of smaller businesses.
Exactly. Consumers often don't care until it's too late.

[Kitty]

But it is. Consumers are the ones who make choices to care less and less about their communities.

Well, then that's where we differ.

I can agree with Wordsmith that they do play a part, but I don't think they play a real part in any major solution.

[Kitty]

And again, I think it's pretty hypocritical to blaim them and be upset...when we are all patronizing these establishments. If you see consumer's as the root of the problem and the solution to the problem..then you have to take into account your own behaviors and actions.

[pisces2473]

Well, then that's where we differ.

I can agree with Wordsmith that they do play a part, but I don't think they play a real part in any major solution.
I think it all depends on where you live and where you've grown up. I live in a small town, so does Jess--we both grew up in the areas where we now live. I know you live in a big city. I think it's the culture where we were raised that affects our thoughts on this issue.

[Kitty]

Probably. It's the scale of it, I suppose. There are just SO MANY people..that really, if I decide not to stop shopping at Target or wal-mart I don't think it's going to make a difference because I know there are thousands and thousands of other people that will continue to shop there because they financially can't afford to shop anywhere else.

[pisces2473]

And again, I think it's pretty hypocritical to blaim them and be upset...when we are all patronizing these establishments. If you see consumer's as the root of the problem and the solution to the problem..then you have to take into account your own behaviors and actions.
It's not hypocritical when you have no choice. I have to shop for some things at big box stores (or malls), because there is no other place to get them. Clothes--yes. Books--no. If I wanted to support my independent clothing store, I'd have to drive over an hour away and spend 1000's of dollars on clothing. I'm serious.

[wordsmith]

But take a look at the macroscopic level of the economy. As an engine, it needs corporations just as much as it needs sole proprietorships and small businesses...shifting will occur invariably and may hurt in certain areas...that's a part of economics...consider butchers. People treated supermarkets in the 70s like they do bog boxes today...did supermarkets really hurt the American economic engine...I certainly don't think so...

Tell that to the butchers.

A major recurring theme in this thread is the observation that nobody cares too much about the little guy, unless they ARE the little guy. Which is sad.

[Kitty]

But there's a shitload of people who dont' have a choice..which is why the lower-price is always going to win in our economy. There's more poor than there are rich. That's why I don't think the solution lies in the consumer.

[lonestar]

I feel for the little guy, I do...but they have the choice and ability to re-invent themselves to become relevant to the free market again.

[wordsmith]

if I decide not to stop shopping at Target or wal-mart I don't think it's going to make a difference because I know there are thousands and thousands of other people that will continue to shop there because they financially can't afford to shop anywhere else.

No, but I can personally hold my head high knowing that I'm not participating in something I fundamentally disagree with, and there is something to be said for that.

[Kitty]

No, but I can personally hold my head high knowing that I'm not participating in something I fundamentally disagree with, and there is something to be said for that.

True. I'm not arguing that. i'm just arguing it wont' have any major impact :)

[wordsmith]

I think it all depends on where you live and where you've grown up. I live in a small town, so does Jess--we both grew up in the areas where we now live. I know you live in a big city. I think it's the culture where we were raised that affects our thoughts on this issue.

I think that this is true, as well as the fact that it breeds a completely different viewpoint on the role and value of community, versus that of people who have not perhaps lived with this same dynamic all their lives.

[pisces2473]

But there's a shitload of people who dont' have a choice..which is why the lower-price is always going to win in our economy. There's more poor than there are rich. That's why I don't think the solution lies in the consumer.
You have a choice though, you know, to use an indie store, yet you don't. There are more poor people because the corporate fat-cats put the mom and pop's out of business. Consumers stopped caring about the mom and pop's, started using the big boxes and then look what happened. It's like the big boxes enticed people to stop patronizing their local businesses...almost like drugs or something.

[Kitty]

You have a choice though, you know, to use an indie store, yet you don't. There are more poor people because the corporate fat-cats put the mom and pop's out of business. Consumers stopped caring about the mom and pop's, started using the big boxes and then look what happened. It's like the big boxes enticed people to stop patronizing their local businesses...almost like drugs or something.

But you're back to chicken and egg.

I think people started patronizing the big corporations because they were cheaper, offered convenience, or provided the consumer with something that the ma and pa didn't. It wasn't like consumer's set out to destroy indie establishments. Therefore, if the indie establishments want to regain their market, they have to either be cheaper, offer something the big stores don't, etc. They need to figure out how to turn an "experience" into a profit.

[lonestar]

But you're back to chicken and egg.

I think people started patronizing the big corporations because they were cheaper, offered convenience, or provided the consumer with something that the ma and pa didn't. It wasn't like consumer's set out to destroy indie establishments. Therefore, if the indie establishments want to regain their market, they have to either be cheaper, offer something the big stores don't, etc. They need to figure out how to turn an "experience" into a profit.

Exactly...how to stay relevant in the market...very important. There are SBs and SPs that have succesfully done this, too.

[wordsmith]

True. I'm not arguing that. i'm just arguing it wont' have any major impact :)

But at the point at which it's blatantly obvious that nobody is going to come to the aid of what you feel is right, ideals are the one thing you always DO have. and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Kitty]

You have a choice though, you know, to use an indie store, yet you don't.

Because it costs more money. I don't want to spend my money on indie bookstores because to me it's not of any real value. Sorry, but I'm being honest here. I like amazon. I'm perfectly content with Amazon - I don't go to bookstores for the atmosphere or the information. If I do go, it's to buy a book I can't get anywhere else.

If I think an indie establishment is of value to me and the community, I do patronize it.

[Kitty]

But at the point at which it's blatantly obvious that nobody is going to come to the aid of what you feel is right, ideals are the one thing you always DO have. and there's nothing wrong with that.

I never said there was anything wrong with it. Jeez.

[lonestar]

ideals and sentimentaly really don't have much of a place in business. It may hold some consumers but for the most part customers will follow the low prices.

[pisces2473]

ideals and sentimentaly really don't have much of a place in business. It may hold some consumers but for the most part customers will follow the low prices.
Or they don't follow anything and don't read. That's sad.

[wordsmith]

Therefore, if the indie establishments want to regain their market, they have to either be cheaper, offer something the big stores don't, etc. They need to figure out how to turn an "experience" into a profit.

But this is the exact dilemma...indies CAN succeed...how? By reinventing themselves so that they are essentially no different than the corporate options? There's only so much you CAN do, financewise, without corporate backing. So, essentially, they HAVE to sell out to some degree to succeed...

And while this isn't a literal monopoly, it's an ideological monopoly, if you will. Because obviously indie business owners don't want to be corporate, or they would have sold out and bought a franchise long ago, right?

I never said there was anything wrong with it. Jeez.

It's all good...I wasn't saying you did. Just noting that sometimes, you've gotta do what you think is right even if you know that the majority aren't behind you.

[Kitty]

ideals and sentimentaly really don't have much of a place in business. It may hold some consumers but for the most part customers will follow the low prices.

Actually, I think indie bookstores just need to capitalize on those ideals and that sentimentality. That's their target market. They do provide something that's unique to the consumer - an experience, etc. They just haven't figured out how to profit from that.

[lonestar]

I don't see it as sad...business is a place where it is nothing personal..just business. There is no feeling in these things: some entities thrive and some fail, and that's just the way it goes...kinda like life.

[Kitty]

It's all good...I wasn't saying you did. Just noting that sometimes, you've gotta do what you think is right even if you know that the majority aren't behind you.

fair enough. I just didn't want to be accused of saying morals and ideals and sticking up for what you believe in aren't important.

[lonestar]

Actually, I think indie bookstores just need to capitalize on those ideals and that sentimentality. That's their target market. They do provide something that's unique to the consumer - an experience, etc. They just haven't figured out how to profit from that.

They do provide these things to a niche market share that values them - which is what I have been saying. You don't put a catholic radio station in a methodist town; similarly, you put an indie where it will be valued. that's how to work the market. but you have to realize that that niche market, by its nature, is smaller than mass market preferences.

[Winter Storm]

Jeez, this thread sure took a dive. I can tell you I'm no help because I usually don't buy 90% of the books I read, I borrow them from the library and take them back when I'm done, thus not contributing at all to book stores. I've even gone to B&N and read the books right there in the store and put it back when I was done (like I did with the Quarterlifecrisis Companion) :cool:

Never been a bookstore person but I feel for the little guys. It is a bit sad to see them getting eaten up by the big fish out here. Reminds me of You've Got Mail with Tom Hanks' big giganto Foxx Books, killing Meg Ryan's cute lil corner bookstore that everyone grew up with. It is unfortunate business.

[pisces2473]

Kitty, I just want you to know that my arguments with you here are just on the ideas being presented. I'm not personally attacking you. If it has felt that way, it wasn't my intention.

Lonestar--the store here is in the type of niche market--small town, rich people, etc. But still sales suck.

[wordsmith]

ideals and sentimentaly really don't have much of a place in business.

Then why should anybody open a small business? Obviously small businesses can never offer low prices of large retail conglomerates. If it comes down strictly to that, why should anybody work to obtain a small business loan? Why should banks give them? Are you saying that there is no point in running a business unless you want to simply be the manager of a corporate entity? Entrepreneurial sprit is absolutely ROOTED in idealism, so I have a really hard time crossing it out of the equation or saying that it has no place in business.

[pisces2473]

I've even gone to B&N and read the books right there in the store and put it back when I was done (like I did with the Quarterlifecrisis Companion) :cool:
Abby's gonna ban you now, for sure. :razz:

[pisces2473]

Then why should anybody open a small business? Obviously small businesses can never offer low prices of large retail conglomerates. If it comes down strictly to that, why should anybody work to obtain a small business loan? Why should banks give them? Are you saying that there is no point in running a business unless you want to simply be the manager of a corporate entity? Entrepreneurial sprit is absolutely ROOTED in idealism, so I have a really hard time crossing it out of the equation or saying that it has no place in business.
Exactly. It's a very defeatist mentality.

[lonestar]

Lonestar--the store here is in the type of niche market--small town, rich people, etc. But still sales suck.

Well, that stinks...but that's the breaks of the economy...I wish I could tell you that the market rewards uniqueness and variety and nicities - but it more often than not it doesn't and that isn't a reflection on the business owners...economics is an impersonal engine and there is nothing else to be said for that.

[lonestar]

Then why should anybody open a small business? Obviously small businesses can never offer low prices of large retail conglomerates. If it comes down strictly to that, why should anybody work to obtain a small business loan? Why should banks give them? Are you saying that there is no point in running a business unless you want to simply be the manager of a corporate entity? Entrepreneurial sprit is absolutely ROOTED in idealism, so I have a really hard time crossing it out of the equation or saying that it has no place in business.

I should restate that they take a back seat to low prices...like I said before small retailers can exist but they have to be placed in the most perfect of market conditions.

As evidenced by failures in small towns with little to no marketability. In cities, smaller businesses do well.

[pisces2473]

As evidenced by failures in small towns with little to no marketability. In cities, smaller businesses do well.
But cities also have smaller available retail spaces...and not much land to expand and set up big box stores. Could that be why?

[wordsmith]

I don't see it as sad...business is a place where it is nothing personal..just business. There is no feeling in these things: some entities thrive and some fail, and that's just the way it goes...kinda like life.

And, see, that's a major divergence in what we're talking about, and kind of illustrates my point. My perspective is small communities...where business and personal are inextricable from one another...where personal pride, personal service, personal touch enters in. You lose that when there is no choice but for everything to go corporate, there is no denying.

[wordsmith]

I should restate that they take a back seat to low prices...like I said before small retailers can exist but they have to be placed in the most perfect of market conditions.

As evidenced by failures in small towns with little to no marketability. In cities, smaller businesses do well.

Okay, so then it follows that small towns may as well completely fold up, then? I think thousands of departments of economic and community development would disagree with you.

[lonestar]

Okay, so then it follows that small towns may as well completely fold up, then? I think thousands of departments of economic and community development would disagree with you.

They may disagree with me, but nothing can be done...these aren't monopolies that we are talking about so you can not break them and they are playing by the rules of capitalism...so they really haven't done anything wrong. Besides, people do shop there and there would be a massive boycott if they didn't like the product.

Besides I don't see the logic where because only Wal-Mart exists in the town, the town folds up...there was a Wal-Mart in Ft. Stockton, TX that people drove two hours to get to because they loved it.

[wordsmith]

They may disagree with me, but nothing can be done...these aren't monopolies that we are talking about so you can not break them and they are playing by the rules of capitalism...so they really haven't done anything wrong.

Dude, nobody's talking about right and wrong...I'm simply talking about the degradation of communities because they, and the individuals in them, are undervalued.

You're not telling me anything new. I'm not saying it's not the case. I'm just voicing my opinion on how I think it's a shame and unfortunate and detrimental to the general atmosphere of a lot of our country.

[Kitty]

Kitty, I just want you to know that my arguments with you here are just on the ideas being presented. I'm not personally attacking you. If it has felt that way, it wasn't my intention.


No doubt! I love a good debate and am not taking anything personally. Thanks for the thought, though.

I hope you know the same is true as far as I'm concerned.

[wordsmith]

Same, here. And, personally, I think it's a GREAT thread. I love it when people actually put a lot of impassioned thought into stuff.

[Kitty]

Same, here. And, personally, I think it's a GREAT thread. I love it when people actually put a lot of impassioned thought into stuff.

Agreed. I know I can be kind of harsh at times..but I'm just arguing my points and nothing is personal at all.

[wordsmith]

Yup, same here...I most assuredly get fiery and impassioned about topics that matter to me (and the social/political/economic infrastructure of small communities is DEFINITELY among those topics).

[lonestar]

well it obviously took off...nine pages certainly ain't bad..

for all readers, sorry if my posts sound a little militant but I have been getting hardcore into Rand in the past few months.

whose books, oddly enough, I was introduced to by a friend at an indie bookstore.

[wordsmith]

They sell them at Borders, too. How appropriate.

[and1grad]

Very. I'd have a very, very hard time if I didn't have the opportunity to read. I honestly think I'd be an entirely different person, and I have no idea who that person would be.
You'd probably just have a regular calendar. :neutral:

[pisces2473]

Jess and Kitty--exactly, I really love passionate debates about things I care about. I'm glad we all kept it civil! YAY! :huge:

[WorkInProgress]

You'd probably just have a regular calendar. :neutral:

Yeah, I know...eh! (BTW, today's word: coaming) :razz:

[and1grad]

Yeah, I know...eh! (BTW, today's word: coaming) :razz:
I think everyone should look up this word just to see how great a post this is. Well done! :)

[WorkInProgress]

I think everyone should look up this word just to see how great a post this is. Well done! :)

Thanks!

extraletters