The evolution of dating/courtship

[wordsmith]

I thought that this (http://www.boundless.org/2000/departments/beyond_buddies/a0000234.html) was a pretty interesting read...feel free to read, weigh in, discuss.

[coll214]

That was an interesting article and definitely made some good points; though the part on the survey of 11-14 year olds was disturbing to say the least.

[wordsmith]

It is, but I honestly don't doubt it. Simply because years spent working with middle school aged boys, I got a crash course in the fact that it's simply astounding the things that come out of their mouths and to realize that they are honest perceptions.

[capella]

Clearly had a conservative bias in it, but overall, interesting. I think that it is true that guys have lost the art of wooing. But I also think it's wrong to give the impression that all women are "giving it up" without anything at all expected as far as a relationship goes. Some yes, but not all (or even a majority I would think). The survey thing was a little scary, however, not all that surprising. They idolize songs that demean women (girls and boys that is). I'm not blaming it all on music, it's more of a cultural problem. Young girls don't demand the respect they deserve because they think they'll be less desireable. I hope some of the girls I've had in class will outgrow that. :googly:

Edited to clarify.

[shimma]

The forced sex thing was extremely disturbing, but unfortunately I agree that a bunch of promiscous hoes are spoiling it for other women. It's almost like you have to go into the dating world demanding a relationship/commitment/marriage/whatever is appropriate for your age/place in life.

Great article, Words. ;):

[wordsmith]

Yeah, the thing for me is that I'm not especially conservative in my views/stances...I did think it was interesting to point out the power shift that occurred from early courtship rituals being dominated by a female/matriarchal force, to the shift where guy pays = guy assumes control.

I do think that in taking any kind of formality out of the romantic involvement scene, our generation has kind of cheapened it. Post-college, I prefer to actually DATE..."hanging out" as a substitute for dating is very "dorm room" to me, and not so adult. I'm an adult, I work a busy job, I like to have things to do where I actually get out and do things and socialize. Hanging out with somebody you're involved with is fine...but just hanging out should NOT be all you do. Actual dates are nice. And, no, I don't expect to be paid for, either. I just like to go out...I could easily take MYSELF out for a nice dinner (and do)...but it's fun to have the company, make an event of it.

I think there is def. an undercurrent of "you owe me," when the element of a financial exchange is there...I DO sometimes feel like your company is being "purchased." I don't even think it's necessarily as blatant and assholish as, "Well, I bought you a very expensive dinner with the thought in mind that you'd put out," obviously. But speaking for myself, I know there have been times when I felt sheepish about telling a guy I just wasn't feeling it, knowing that he'd paid, at his own insistance, for a couple of dates. It's not, obviously, like I'm going to be guilted into sleeping with somebody I don't wanna sleep with, but there is an element of "He spent all this money, and i'll feel like an ass for hurting his feelings..." when I really wanted to let a guy down gently. For me, there IS a feeling of being beholden, and I tend to try to always pay my own way to avoid feeling that way.

[Trillian42]

Quote from the article "If you want to do something that does cost money, consider going "dutch" — just in case the young man is, like Rhett Butler, thinking of taking liberties. (Make sure he understands why you're doing this: It's not because you're an "I have to be in control" feminist. Just the opposite. You want to pay your own way because you're a true traditionalist.)"

I just ran into this whole problem on my last dating experience! On our first date, we met at a restaraunt, and he paid for dinner. When then decided to extend the date by going to a local pub and having drinks. I asked him to let me pay for the drinks because he had been so nice to pay for dinner. He explained he was a "traditionalist" and it's hard for him to let women pay for things, but let me pay anyway. The whole date went really well except for the ackward who pays fo rdrinks part.

We talked (he called) almost every night until two weeks later we had our second date. I was going to see the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra at an outdoor concert with a couple of my friends and asked if he wanted to come with me. My friend brought extra tickets for us and I paid her back ($26, about the cost of a dinner). Anyway, the guy later in the evening asked me how much I needed for the tickets. I said I invited him, so it was my treat. He said he still can't get used to that. He offered to buy the food we got at the concession stand, and I allowed him and thanked him. When we got back to his house (he lived closer so we met there), everything was ackward. Granted it was late and he has a roomate. But he had to go into the house for a minute, then when he came back out, he was like let me walk you to your car. Then we just stood there, and finally I gave him a hug said thanks for a fun evening and left.

I didn't hear from the guy for a week. Meanwhile I was freaking out thinking "I know it's the whole controlling pay for things on a date that drove him away, like it has other guys!" Anyway towards the end of our conversation, he mentioned that he had been talking with some coworkers about the idea of "free love" and continued to explain his whole philosophy on sex and how it is important to him and he usually dosen't just do it with anyone.

I haven't heard from him since, and it's been a week and a half. I called him on Sunday, left a message, but he hasn't called back.

Now to the point of my whole drawn out story... so many guys talk about how expensive it is to date and complain that they have to pay for everything, but when the girl offers to pay it's like an offense to their manhood! What gives?!

[shimma]

I didn't hear from the guy for a week. Meanwhile I was freaking out thinking "I know it's the whole controlling pay for things on a date that drove him away, like it has other guys!"

Well, if it's driving guys away... then stop doing it. Are you not worthy/good enough to be treated once in awhile?


Now to the point of my whole drawn out story... so many guys talk about how expensive it is to date and complain that they have to pay for everything, but when the girl offers to pay it's like an offense to their manhood! What gives?!

They're complaining to sound macho and cool and/or to turn off women in the vicinity who they are not interested in but he thinks they might be intererested in him.

[Jedi of Zen]

Interesting article. This a big can of worms to open up, which I'm probably don't have the time & space to get into, lol.

IMHO - a lot of the gender/dating conflicts in our society goes back to factors that go way deeper than dating itself. I think a lot of times in our culture, we really don't understand or grasp the concept of being with someone just for the mere sake of being with that person. I think things get lost sometimes in the blur of glitz and materialism. For men as well as women.

Meh, I could probably go on and on my high horse about this, but I'll just leave it at that. :rolleyes:

[Kitty]

Some thoughts:

- This article seems to be saying that the problems of current day relationships lays in the economics of dating. I'm having a hard time understanding their arguement when they seem to be romanticizing our great grandparents generation which, as they said, made men the "host" and the ones expected to carry the economic burden.

- I have a REAL problem with this suggested solution: "women must relearn the seductive power of just saying no — no to seductive clothing, to hookups, to premarital sex — no to anything less than traditional courtship and marriage." That just seems totally antiquated and would cause even more power struggles.

- I think you could argue that either sex has power in any of the generational examples the article sited.

- I have a hard time understanding how the original story about a girl feeling pressure to kiss a boy because he paid has lead to: xploitation of underage girls by oversexed men, sexually transmitted disease, out-of-wedlock pregnancy and childbirth and abortion. seems like a major stretch.

[wordsmith]

Some thoughts:

- This article seems to be saying that the problems of current day relationships lays in the economics of dating. I'm having a hard time understanding their arguement when they seem to be romanticizing our great grandparents generation which, as they said, made men the "host" and the ones expected to carry the economic burden.

No, in the earliest instances they discussed it was actually the women (her family, more specifically) who hosted and set the rules. The whole point was that there wasn't an economic burden factor in courtship at that point, because it wasn't done to "take a lady out on the town." You went to her house and talked to her and got to know her. There was no expenditure involved.

[Kitty]

No, in the earliest instances they discussed it was actually the women (her family, more specifically) who hosted and set the rules. The whole point was that there wasn't an economic burden factor in courtship at that point, because it wasn't done to "take a lady out on the town." You went to her house and talked to her and got to know her. There was no expenditure involved.

Ok, I guess I still don't really see any proof that those relationships were any better..it just seems like they had different problems/challenges.

[wordsmith]

I think the point was simply that they were less entrenched in the politics of economics and "you owe me ___because I treated you."

[Kitty]

I think the point was simply that they were less entrenched in the politics of economics and "you owe me ___because I treated you."

Well, if there's no proof that the relationships back then were any better than things are now...I don't really get the arguement.The writer very much seems to be saying the politics of economics is making current relationships horrible (which, I don't really see the proof in that either), so, why bother comparing at all?. The writer seems to be saying current relationships are in trouble because of the economic politics and makes some very strong correlations - without any proof.

[wordsmith]

Oh, but I absolutely do agree, if with not a whole lot else, that the politics of economics are a HUGE factor in modern dating. In a lot of ways. There's really no way to extract that from it, because it's so entrenched in it.

[coll214]

Oh, but I absolutely do agree, if with not a whole lot else, that the politics of economics are a HUGE factor in modern dating. In a lot of ways. There's really no way to extract that from it, because it's so entrenched in it.
I agree. A couple of months ago in fact I went out w/ a guy similar to Trillian's that got weirded out when I tried to pay for things, and then when I didn't uh 'put out' on the fourth date, disappeared into oblivion :googly: . I really think he believed paying for shit meant he was supposed to get something in return.

[SunDevil]

- I have a hard time understanding how the original story about a girl feeling pressure to kiss a boy because he paid has lead to: xploitation of underage girls by oversexed men, sexually transmitted disease, out-of-wedlock pregnancy and childbirth and abortion. seems like a major stretch.

Date-rape is still pretty common and not reported very much. It is hard to prove in the court system, and you might have feelings for the guy. Adding alcohol into the mix just makes it easier.

I think this 'problem' is caused by feminists demanding equal treatment in the dating game (not entirely bad), a large increase in the amount of people that can be selected, the woman does get to choose if she wants to go out with or talk to a guy (and if she wants sex, there will be some guy), birth-control makes STDs the only consequence to free-love sex (and no one thinks it will happen to them), and the fact that money is what attracts women (maybe it is how good of a provider he can be, but it also is a easier nicer lifestyle if you can find a rich guy), and girls want to be able to have multiple partners like the guys (and complain about how society labels them, but guys don't always tell the truth about their numbers).

And the dating game differs wildly in different parts of the country.

As for who pays, it is a control and power issue, plus a way for guys to show that they are needed and can be providers. It's not wrong or bad to pay half, but it sets up a different situation. The guy needs to find something else he can offer to the relationship.

[wordsmith]

The guy needs to find something else he can offer to the relationship.

And what's wrong with that?

P.S. I'm going to be nice and not make a bigger issue of what to me reads like you saying that a high incidence of date rape is "asked for" by proponents equal treatment.

[Trillian42]

As for who pays, it is a control and power issue, plus a way for guys to show that they are needed and can be providers. It's not wrong or bad to pay half, but it sets up a different situation. The guy needs to find something else he can offer to the relationship.

This is why I like to be able to contribute monetarily to dating. I am a female engineer with a sizable salary. I do not need a guy to be a provider, I need to find a guy that has "something else' to bring to the relationship. This, by the way, IMO, is the biggest shift in dating. We are a society that is no longer provider(male)/homekeeper(female). Our generation seems to be the first to really be redefining male/female roles in relationships.

[wordsmith]

Which is exactly why the economic factor of dating can be so problematic. Longstanding traditions have yet to match this shift in reality. There's some catch-up to be done.

[cheshrcarol]

I think this 'problem' is caused by feminists demanding equal treatment in the dating game (not entirely bad), a large increase in the amount of people that can be selected, the woman does get to choose if she wants to go out with or talk to a guy (and if she wants sex, there will be some guy), birth-control makes STDs the only consequence to free-love sex (and no one thinks it will happen to them), and the fact that money is what attracts women (maybe it is how good of a provider he can be, but it also is a easier nicer lifestyle if you can find a rich guy), and girls want to be able to have multiple partners like the guys (and complain about how society labels them, but guys don't always tell the truth about their numbers).
Um, do you even know any women in real life? First you say it's the fault of the feminists (damn then and their equal treatment :googly: ), and then you basically accuse all women of being gold-digging whores.

As for the article itself, I don't really agree all that much with it. I've been on my fair share of dates and have never felt pressured by guys that pay to "put out". And that story in the beginning made no sense to me - the girl won't kiss the guy because he's kind of geeky, but she'll go out on a date with him? :confused:

[Kitty]

I've never had any sort of weird politics around the economics of my relationships/dates either. I think its a problem if you let it be a problem.

[wordsmith]

As for the article itself, I don't really agree all that much with it. I've been on my fair share of dates and have never felt pressured by guys that pay to "put out". And that story in the beginning made no sense to me - the girl won't kiss the guy because he's kind of geeky, but she'll go out on a date with him? :confused:

It's not that I'm saying I feel expected to put out if a guy pays...but I'm also not a stranger to feeling like a guy considers his money to be wasted if, at the end of the date, I'm uninterested.

And, as such, I'm just not comfortable with having money spent on me. I'll spend my own, and it makes dating more comfortable for me. So I definitely identify with taking the economic factor out of dating. With all the talk of "golddigging bitches," I can't honestly say I'm ever comfortable being paid for on a date.

[Chameleon]

I usually think going dutch on the first date is for when you don't have an interest in guy and don't want to owe him anything at the end of the night or if the date turned out to more expensive than either of you had anticipated. I always bring enough cash to cover both of us in case my date "forgets his wallet".

Trillian, maybe the guy felt like you didn't think he could afford to take you out. No point overanalyzing it though, if he can't handle a considerate woman, it's his loss. It's hard to know what the right thing to do is - if you let him pay (without at least offering to chip in), he might think you are a gold digger or that you owe him something at the end of the night, if you do pay your share, he might feel emasculated or think that you don't like him.

The website is affiliated with Focus on the Family hence the super-conservative dating=whoring yourself out slant.

[wordsmith]

Just to reiterate, I have NO ties to Focus on the Family (the article came up on a google search about promise rings and courtship traditions throughout history).

But I do agree that dating is an economic/power exertion travesty. And I don't think that dating NECESSARILY equals whoring yourself out...but making it such an economically-based thing definitely brings it closer to that.

[and1grad]

The writer very much seems to be saying the politics of economics is making current relationships horrible (which, I don't really see the proof in that either), so, why bother comparing at all?. The writer seems to be saying current relationships are in trouble because of the economic politics and makes some very strong correlations - without any proof.
You really dont see the proof of that? Seriously? Its pretty much everywhere and I thought the article did a pretty good job of showing it. It does mention how marriages have become more business-like, for example. That being said, I agree with almost everything that article had to say but the writer does seem to romanticize the past a little. I mean, I'm doubting boys from poor families had a good chance of making it on mom's list of eligible bachelors. Economics has always played a role.

[shimma]

Um, do you even know any women in real life? First you say it's the fault of the feminists (damn then and their equal treatment :googly: ), and then you basically accuse all women of being gold-digging whores.


I'm a golddigging whore though... isn't everybody?

I mean, hey, if we still make 76 cents for every dollar a man makes (due to most of us women choosing lower paying professions of course, but that's irrelevant).

For me, even though I can afford to pay my own way, in this commitment-phobic world, a guy asking me out, paying for the date, etc is much more about the sentiment ("You're worth spending time with/investing the cost of a few meals in") than getting a free dinner. Seems like so many people date just for the sake of dating, not because they actually care about or see a future with you.

ETA: And as a "successful" (more like perceived to be successful) woman, do you have any freaking idea how many goldding MEN I get chasing me? It is just SO degrading when a man tries to make you feel like you should have to buy their company. Excuse the hell out of me for being good at math/science and making a good living out of it, but that doesn't negate my right to be treated like a lady, or constitute an obligation on my part to uphold BOTH the male and female shitty parts of dating. Thanks, but you can act like a gentleman and court me a little as long as I have to deal with childbirth, biological clocks, and ad nauseam beauty treatments. If I'm bringing a good income and financial near-stability to the table, my date/bf/husband had damn well better be also.

I think the point was simply that they were less entrenched in the politics of economics and "you owe me ___because I treated you."

Do you think that may be more a "sense of entitlement" issue than a sexual one? I seriously haven't had a guy cop that attitude with me in like 10 years. (See: why my HS boyfriend and I now hate each other. :evil: )

[shimma]

Just to reiterate, I have NO ties to Focus on the Family

But even if you did, would that somehow invalidate the very solid points you're making?

[wordsmith]

Believe me, I know how being faith-affiliated gets you shredded here.

[shimma]

Believe me, I know how being faith-affiliated gets you shredded here.

Oh, and so do I. Quite small minded really... If faith-affiliated people were really that stupid and wrong, my guess would be that the atheistic types wouldn't see them as such a threat, don't you think?

*sniff sniff* Is that fear I smell?

:evil:

[wordsmith]

However, I'm not a conservative Christian...that was my point in noting that.

[MetFanL]

Forget the monetary stuff, I think the most intersting part was the piece about hooking up and sex. I've been thinking about this ALOT and I sometimes feel like men don't date "nice girls," can't/won't commit, etc. b/c they don't have to... What do they get out of a committed relationship that they can't get from random girls? There is ALWAYS a girl who will hook up with you if you know what to look for -- I've helped guy friends catch one -- so, why commit to someone? These girls will always be out there (even after dudes are married)... It's just another way that we women end up hurting OURSELVES.

[wordsmith]

I agree. I think that when women argue that "being able to have sex like a man" is "empowering" a la SATC, it's a major line of BS.

Playing into the male fantasy...the easy lay who comes with no strings... is sooo independent of you. Hold on to that one. :rolleyes:

[biodork]

Oh, and so do I. Quite small minded really... If faith-affiliated people were really that stupid and wrong, my guess would be that the atheistic types wouldn't see them as such a threat, don't you think?

*sniff sniff* Is that fear I smell?

:evil:
Wow thanks.

[MetFanL]

Exactly, words, but the ONLY way to get out of the cycle is for ALL women to say ENOUGH. That'll never happen... So, where does that leave the rest of us??

[shimma]

Wow thanks.


Not YOU. You don't hate on those who believe in God. Some atheists here seem to. :cool:

[wordsmith]

Exactly, words, but the ONLY way to get out of the cycle is for ALL women to say ENOUGH. That'll never happen... So, where does that leave the rest of us??

Dependent upon the (admittedly small) amount of guys who actually WANT real relationships, I guess.

[wordsmith]

I found a good quote on this, actually, met...in a NY Times article.

"Claiming to have no emotional ties is not the essence of liberation, if it isn't the relationship of choice, but rather, the only one you can get. It is a desperate choice, and a rather pathetic one, at that...there are women who, forgive the terminology, take their sex 'like a man...' At least, they do, until the end of the hook-up devastates them."

I feel like women in particular have a lot of false bravado about being "able" to have detached sex. Like it's a badge of how much cooler you are than other women.

[shimma]

Dependent upon the (admittedly small) amount of guys who actually WANT real relationships, I guess.

But do guys not really want real relationships? Most of the ones I know (late 20s, early 30s) really DO seem to want the whole package - soulmate/lifepartner, children, minivan, etc - but bemoan the lack of quality women out there.

IMO, the guys I know like this are still single because their standards are too high and/or they're looking in the wrong places.

[enigma]

I really wish more men would comment on this. I hear A LOT of guys complaining that they cannot find good women.

Dependent upon the (admittedly small) amount of guys who actually WANT real relationships, I guess.

I honestly believe that there are just as many 'bad' girls as 'bad' men. I think that it is just so hard to sift through all the bad men and women, so it makes us feel like there are no good people left to date...

[wordsmith]

Guys who complain that they can't find good women are still very likely to be guys who wouldn't turn down NSA sex from some chick if the opp presented itself.

[MetFanL]

I found a good quote on this, actually, met...in a NY Times article.

"Claiming to have no emotional ties is not the essence of liberation, if it isn't the relationship of choice, but rather, the only one you can get. It is a desperate choice, and a rather pathetic one, at that...there are women who, forgive the terminology, take their sex 'like a man...' At least, they do, until the end of the hook-up devastates them."

I feel like women in particular have a lot of false bravado about being "able" to have detached sex. Like it's a badge of how much cooler you are than other women.
I started reading this book a few weeks ago called "Female Chauvinist Pigs." I stopped b/c the author was annoying me, but now I wonder if it's b/c she was hitting home...

I know I, personally, can't have sex like a man. For a while, I thought I could handle it, but as you see in my sig, my heart ALWAYS gets pulled in. It's a f'ing biological reaction that ALL WOMEN have, no matter what they say. Granted, we all have it in different degrees, but mine is super strong and I just can't handle it.

And, more importantly, I no longer WANT detached sex. I want to be with someone that I care about. It now makes my stomach turn thinking about sleeping w/ someone I don't care deeply about.

[wordsmith]

My vagina can shrivel up and develop sand dunes before I become remotely interested in detached, NSA sex, to be perfectly blunt and honest.

[MetFanL]

Guys who complain that they can't find good women are still very likely to be guys who wouldn't turn down NSA sex from some chick if the opp presented itself.

Exactly. Sex is f'ing power. I don't understand why more women don't use that to their advantage and gain a little self-respect. I know that I deserve more than NSA attached sex, a pat on the a*s and a goodnight and goodbye. And, I'm ANGRY at other girls (and myself included for ever doing this) for not putting a stop to this so we ALL (men and women) can go back to have real, meaningful relationships and BETTER SEX.

[shimma]

I found a good quote on this, actually, met...in a NY Times article.

"Claiming to have no emotional ties is not the essence of liberation, if it isn't the relationship of choice, but rather, the only one you can get. It is a desperate choice, and a rather pathetic one, at that...there are women who, forgive the terminology, take their sex 'like a man...' At least, they do, until the end of the hook-up devastates them."

I feel like women in particular have a lot of false bravado about being "able" to have detached sex. Like it's a badge of how much cooler you are than other women.

I think the women who act like this are just telling themselves (and others) that, I don't think they actually beleive it deep down.

[wordsmith]

I know that I deserve more than NSA attached sex, a pat on the a*s and a goodnight and goodbye.

Preaching to the choir, there.

I'm worth more than a tool for somebody to get off.

[Winter Storm]

I honestly believe that there are just as many 'bad' girls as 'bad' men. I think that it is just so hard to sift through all the bad men and women, so it makes us feel like there are no good people left to date...

I kinda believe this too but only after hearing male friends complain about their dating market.

I also think a lot of women bullshit themselves into thinking they can have 'sex like a man'. I tried and that didn't last long. I also want to emotional attachment; real intimacy if you will. I don't even want to have sex like 'a man' and have a hard tme understanding why a man would.

And ha ha, Words about the sand dunes. I was thinking cobwebs. :)

But do guys not really want real relationships? Most of the ones I know (late 20s, early 30s) really DO seem to want the whole package - soulmate/lifepartner, children, minivan, etc - but bemoan the lack of quality women out there.

As for men wanting real relationships, I haven't come across many. The line of thinking is usually yeah...one day. One day being years from now. And it's not like they are particularly adverse to it, just not actively seeking it. So even when a good woman comes along, its so far off the radar for them that they just don't take much interest.

[wordsmith]

I agree. I just had this convo, but basically, I feel that humans are BUILT to require emotional closeness. Those who don't, don't because they're damaged goods, to be perfectly honest. It's not natural to WANT to detach your feelings. It's not how we're made. In my opinion.

[wordsmith]

And ha ha, Words about the sand dunes. I was thinking cobwebs. :)

Hah...I wanted to fully capture the barren desolation. :rolleyes:

[enigma]

I'm worth more than a tool for somebody to get off.

That sparks quite the image, I have to say... :0

Maybe I am just way off, but I can't share the idea that men are not looking for relationships. Maybe it is not a 'goal' of theirs like a lot of woman, but I just know a lot of guys that are not truly fufilled by casual sex. Sure, they won't turn it down but I know they are looking for something more meaningful.

[wordsmith]

I think the key lies in "sure, they won't turn it down."

Hard to convincingly be looking for a solid relationship when you're open to whatever NSA bullshit comes down the pike.

[MetFanL]

True. But, also, I think they guys don't HAVE to have a timeline for this stuff whereas women do. That f'ing biological clock just f's everything up...

[wordsmith]

I don't have a ticking clock, and I still feel the same, though.

My preference for actual real relationships has nothing to do with having kids.

[enigma]

Hard to convincingly be looking for a solid relationship when you're open to whatever NSA bullshit comes down the pike.

Not to play devils advocate, but isn't this similar to when woman settle for dating men that they know they won't develop a solid relationships with? I think a lot of people don't realize that their current actions are what hinder them from actually attaining what they want.

[wordsmith]

Not to play devils advocate, but isn't this similar to when woman settle for dating men that they know they won't develop a solid relationships with? I think a lot of people don't realize that their current actions are what hinder them from actually attaining what they want.

Absolutely. Why dating Mr. Right Now is a waste of time. Go out with somebody long enough to know if you want to see them seriously...don't use people as placeholders.

[enigma]

But, also, I think they guys don't HAVE to have a timeline for this stuff whereas women do. That f'ing biological clock just f's everything up...

I am curious where this 'clock' comes from. Sometimes I think it is just what woman 'feel' like they have to do because society tells them so. Other times I think it is just evolution telling us "Proooocreate, Proooocreate"...

[enigma]

Go out with somebody long enough to know if you want to see them seriously...don't use people as placeholders.

Or vice versa, eh? I think this is much more difficult than it seems sometimes. Sometimes you WANT to date someone seriously and you are fearful you are their placeholder... in my opinion this is impossible to tell.

[wordsmith]

I am curious where this 'clock' comes from. Sometimes I think it is just what woman 'feel' like they have to do because society tells them so. Other times I think it is just evolution telling us "Proooocreate, Proooocreate"...

Some women are maternal and others aren't.

In the past, women were expected to procreate societally even if it wasn't their bag. I cringe to think how many bad mothers/resentful mothers and effed up kids that produced. Not every woman is maternal.

I am, though.

[Brillo25]

I do think that in taking any kind of formality out of the romantic involvement scene, our generation has kind of cheapened it. Post-college, I prefer to actually DATE..."hanging out" as a substitute for dating is very "dorm room" to me, and not so adult.

So true. My current interest has always said we should "hang out" soon or something like that. But then when we "hang out," I pay for everything, and it's pretty clear she sits back and waits for me to pay, which is fine if we are in fact dating, but does that mean our "hanging out" is a date? It's only been three times and we haven't done anything intimate yet, so it's hard to tell. And it's hard to tell if I should make some move, because I think maybe she does literally mean "hanging out," like buddies. Some formality that makes it clear that we're actually going out on dates would be appreciated. Referring to it as "hanging out" makes it unclear on what the expectations are.

[wordsmith]

Hah. Don't pay, next time.

Go to a park or someplace, where it's free.

[enigma]

My current interest has always said we should "hang out" soon or something like that. But then when we "hang out," I pay for everything, and it's pretty clear she sits back and waits for me to pay, which is fine if we are in fact dating, but does that mean our "hanging out" is a date?

My current interest always uses the word 'date'.. but after 7 months of 'dates' I have started calling it 'hanging-out' or 'outings'..

Funny how the words 'date' and 'hanging out' can be interchanged at different points in a relationship.

In all honesty, I think it is a 'Tomato Tomatoe' kind of a deal...

[Brillo25]

Maybe I'll "forget my wallet" next time, haha. I'm sure that will help. Seriously, are we dating or hanging out? I might kiss someone I'm dating, I'm not so sure if we're just "hanging out." It drives me crazy. I had to ask a female friend of mine if "hanging out" is a euphemism for dating that some women use to make it sound less formal, and she said it probably is. But as someone who usually needs to be hit over the head with a signal before I make a move, it's maddening.

[enigma]

Go to a park or someplace, where it's free.

Heck, do that for the next few dates. Make a picnic, etc. Make all the dates fun, but make sure none of it involves you paying... If a girl is truly interested in you, she will enjoy these types of dates just the same!

[Brillo25]

My current interest always uses the word 'date'.. but after 7 months of 'dates' I have started calling it 'hanging-out' or 'outings'..

Funny how the words 'date' and 'hanging out' can be interchanged at different points in a relationship.

In all honesty, I think it is a 'Tomato Tomatoe' kind of a deal...

That's understandable 7 months in. But in the early-going when you're still trying to figure out whether a girl sees you as a friend or a dating interest ---AAAARGH!

[enigma]

Seriously, are we dating or hanging out?

I feel like I am missing a big chunk of your story... how many times have you been out with her? Maybe you're missing out on some changes that you don't even know are there! Girls are trickly like that. I will say, that if you are paying for everything and she doesn't think you two are 'dating' than that is just plain wrong. OR she should let you know that what you two aren't doing is dating...

[Brillo25]

Heck, do that for the next few dates. Make a picnic, etc. Make all the dates fun, but make sure none of it involves you paying... If a girl is truly interested in you, she will enjoy these types of dates just the same!
Yeah, it's summer. Fun free dates are easier to plan.

[enigma]

That's understandable 7 months in. But in the early-going when you're still trying to figure out whether a girl sees you as a friend or a dating interest ---AAAARGH!

What's funny is that he CONTINUES to call them dates... but on the good side we do always have something fun planned.

The friend/dating interest debate is always difficult. It is wrong if she is letting you pay and she doesn't have an interest in dating you... have you made any types of 'moves'... it's really hard to say anything more without a full story :)

[Brillo25]

I feel like I am missing a big chunk of your story... how many times have you been out with her? Maybe you're missing out on some changes that you don't even know are there!

We've only been out three times, and we met on myspace so the first one was just briefly to make sure the other wasn't psycho or something. But our dates (or whatever) have been soooo spaced out for a variety of reasons. The fact that she lets me pay and generally seems to spend some effort on looking really nice leads me to believe we're at least exploring the idea of dating. Plus I've used language toward her that hints at my intentions. But she has SO many platonic male friends I'm afraid I might be one of them. I was going to make a definitive move on her this week, but our plans got derailed by a family tragedy she had.

[wordsmith]

We've only been out three times, and we met on myspace so the first one was just briefly to make sure the other wasn't psycho or something. But our dates (or whatever) have been soooo spaced out for a variety of reasons. The fact that she lets me pay and generally seems to spend some effort on looking really nice leads me to believe we're at least exploring the idea of dating. Plus I've used language toward her that hints at my intentions. But she has SO many platonic male friends I'm afraid I might be one of them. I was going to make a definitive move on her this week, but our plans got derailed by a family tragedy she had.

I just had to flat out (after months of periodic gettogethers, not unlike you), ask G. "So...what's this, really? Are we interested in seeing where this might go?"

Ambiguity is bullshit after that long a stretch of time, regardless of how often you "hang out."

[MetFanL]

I just had to flat out (after months of periodic gettogethers, not unlike you), ask G. "So...what's this, really? Are we interested in seeing where this might go?"

Ambiguity is bullshit after that long a stretch of time, regardless of how often you "hang out."

Ditto. You have to ask.

[wordsmith]

AHAHAHAHAHAAH, Brill, I just saw your user title!

[Brillo25]

Of course! Have to give props to my heritage :]

[cheshrcarol]

Brillo, I'd say if you're hanging out just the two of you and and she expects you to pay, it's a date. Personally, I also would use some other terminiology than "date" to the person because that just sounds funny to me. I might ask if they want to "get together". Not, "hey, want to go on a date this weekend", even though that's what it's mutually understood to be.

[wordsmith]

To me, it would entirely depend on how many other dudes (if any) she's ALSO hanging out with. And you don't know unless you ask.

[AI3]

If you guys have only been "hanging" out 2-3 times it might be too early have bigger expectations. Asking her or making a move may freak her out. Just avoid the expensive outings until you know what's going on ;)

[wordsmith]

But it's not early, timeline-wise.

[AI3]

I think it is given their situation and what just happened to her. Besides maybe she's putting him through some sort of test ;):

[wordsmith]

Dragging crap out over months is pretty lame, though. A few months of somebody keeping me on the line would make me think things, too.

[AI3]

I agree but he never mentioned months...just 3 meetings with the first being very brief. So 2 meetings off myspace.....if he asks too soon he'll look desperate,obsessed, or needy lol us guy are never in a winning situation :)

[wordsmith]

But I know him and know it's been months. :)

[AI3]

But I know him and know it's been months. :)

Well if it's been months with only 2-3 meetings then I'd have to say it's just hanging out then :) I know if I was dating someone new I'd like to see them at least once a week. How can you not want to when it's new and exciting.

[wordsmith]

Well, in my case, if you don't live in the same town, it's not feasible.

[AI3]

Well, in my case, if you don't live in the same town, it's not feasible.


What's the saying? If you're not in the same zip code it's not cheating?? lol ;):

[wordsmith]

WTF are you talking about? :confused:

[AI3]

WTF are you talking about? :confused:

NM it was a joke...... I guess only the guys would get it. sorry to confuse you :)


"Well, in my case, if you don't live in the same town, it's not feasible."

[ScottyTheBody]

Guys who complain that they can't find good women are still very likely to be guys who wouldn't turn down NSA sex from some chick if the opp presented itself.

You know what, I have turned down NSA sex from women that I find to be very attractive, I also got tons of insults (like I wasn't a real man and I was gay which of course is not true, or whatever) but you want to know what the honest truth is? It's because sex and emotional attatchment for me, are but the same thing, and I can't have one without the other. Sure, that night would be amazing but then afterwards I would feel empty and alone for much longer than a night.

But, hey, I know I'm not an ordinary guy. Also I want you to know that there are more of us out there than you think.

Like it has been said on this thread: there are just as many "bad" men as there are "bad" women.

[and1grad]

You know what, I have turned down NSA sex from women that I find to be very attractive, I also got tons of insults (like I wasn't a real man and I was gay which of course is not true, or whatever) but you want to know what the honest truth is? It's because sex and emotional attatchment for me, are but the same thing, and I can't have one without the other. Sure, that night would be amazing but then afterwards I would feel empty and alone for much longer than a night.

But, hey, I know I'm not an ordinary guy. Also I want you to know that there are more of us out there than you think.

Like it has been said on this thread: there are just as many "bad" men as there are "bad" women.
No we can keep with this trend. Men only want NSA sex...fine. In that case, women only want guys with money. So I guess we're all man-whores and they're all golddiggers. Well...at least thats been settled now.

[Trillian42]

Thanks, but you can act like a gentleman and court me a little as long as I have to deal with childbirth, biological clocks, and ad nauseam beauty treatments.

I never considered that aspect of it! That thought could actually help me sit back, relax, and let a guy take care of me for once! ROTFLOL!! :huge:

[wordsmith]

Like it has been said on this thread: there are just as many "bad" men as there are "bad" women.

Actually, you're preaching to the choir, here.

I'm firmly convinced that quality people of either gender are rare. And usually, the situation is such that they don't find each other. It's always a quality woman trying to get a vile guy to appreciate her, or a quality guy losing it over some atrocious woman.

[Kitty]

No we can keep with this trend. Men only want NSA sex...fine. In that case, women only want guys with money. So I guess we're all man-whores and they're all golddiggers. Well...at least thats been settled now.

I think its very hypocrtical the statements that some of the women have gotten away with in this thread regarding guys. Total stereotyping and generalizing.

I've know plenty of guys who would turn down NSA sex.

[MetFanL]

I think its very hypocrtical the statements that some of the women have gotten away with in this thread regarding guys. Total stereotyping and generalizing.

I've know plenty of guys who would turn down NSA sex.
I feel like I've done more girl-bashing on this thread than guys. I don't really blame guys for the NSA stuff, I blame girls who have no self-respect.

[Kitty]

I feel like I've done more girl-bashing on this thread than guys. I don't really blame guys for the NSA stuff, I blame girls who have no self-respect.

What? I'm sorry, but I think that's pretty backwards way of thinking. Its ok for guys not to have self-respect, but women should be the ones w/ the morals, values, and self-respect?

[cheshrcarol]

I don't really blame guys for the NSA stuff, I blame girls who have no self-respect.For a girl to have an NSA it doesn't necessarily mean they have no self respect. And I don't really think if all girls stopped giving too easily to guys that they would suddenly wake up and want a real, loving, committed relationship. Either guys (or girls) want that, or not. The availability for sex isn't going to change that.

[Kitty]

For a girl to have an NSA it doesn't necessarily mean they have no self respect. And I don't really think if all girls stopped giving too easily to guys that they would suddenly wake up and want a real, loving, committed relationship. Either guys (or girls) want that, or not. The availability for sex isn't going to change that.

I totally agree with you.

I just strongly oppose the "boys will be boys" mentality and trying to make women change to make up for it.

[MetFanL]

What? I'm sorry, but I think that's pretty backwards way of thinking. Its ok for guys not to have self-respect, but women should be the ones w/ the morals, values, and self-respect?
I'm not really saying boys will be boys, I'm saying we can't just keep saying "guys shouldn't be doing this." We, as women, have to carry some of the blame and a lot of times, we forget that part. My friends bash dudes all the time and I'm just saying the blame isn't 100% on the guy's shoulders.

AND, I'm not saying that if NSA was off the table, guys would "fall in line" on the commitment thing. I'm just saying that it makes it easier to explore the potential option of a relationship w/o that distraction all the time.

[enigma]

saying we can't just keep saying "guys shouldn't be doing this." We, as women, have to carry some of the blame and a lot of times, we forget that part.

I think for a lot of people, it is easier to make points when one generalizes statements. I hope we would all know that nothing is black and white. I think most of us fit into gray areas... but we all know examples of people who fit into the black and white areas of topics - so those seem to stick out more on our mind.

[wordsmith]

I'm not really saying boys will be boys, I'm saying we can't just keep saying "guys shouldn't be doing this." We, as women, have to carry some of the blame and a lot of times, we forget that part. My friends bash dudes all the time and I'm just saying the blame isn't 100% on the guy's shoulders.

AND, I'm not saying that if NSA was off the table, guys would "fall in line" on the commitment thing. I'm just saying that it makes it easier to explore the potential option of a relationship w/o that distraction all the time.

I agree with this, completely.

[shimma]

Well if it's been months with only 2-3 meetings then I'd have to say it's just hanging out then :)

Ditto. No offense, Brillo, but if I were she I'd think that you were either

-really busy and only interested in me as a friend; or
-a committed bachelor who had my and 285478438 other ladies' numbers in his little black book.

[Brillo25]

Ditto. No offense, Brillo, but if I were she I'd think that you were either

-really busy and only interested in me as a friend; or
-a committed bachelor who had my and 285478438 other ladies' numbers in his little black book.
If it weren't for the fact that it's almost always she who has something else going on, while it's me who tells her what my days off are every week (I work a lot of weekends - that's my only contribution to the problem) to find out if she can squeeze me in, then yeah, one might think that. Why would you assume I'm the reason we've gotten together so little?

On her myspace page, she has about 285478438 male friends, many of whom send her flirty comments. So everything you said she might think about me, I fear about her.

[wordsmith]

Knowing the situation, it sounds like you're a lot more available than she is, Brill (not counting her recent tragedy, of course).

[shimma]

If it weren't for the fact that it's almost always she who has something else going on, while it's me who tells her what my days off are every week (I work a lot of weekends - that's my only contribution to the problem) to find out if she can squeeze me in, then yeah, one might think that. Why would you assume I'm the reason we've gotten together so little?

On her myspace page, she has about 285478438 male friends, many of whom send her flirty comments. So everything you said she might think about me, I fear about her.


:redface: My bad. Let's just say my own past shitty dating experiences (I'm female, and apparently a "clueless dumbass magnet") had me blaming you? Sorry.

That is strange about her male friends. A yellow flag if you will. My single male friends will *sometimes* say something to me that seems flirty (but they're joking) but it's pretty few and far between.

[Brillo25]

It's ok, shimma. A lot of the problem is that she's in the air national guard and flies a lot, sometimes gone for a week or so, and has now had two family catastrophies since I've known her, plus like I said I work a lot of weekends. But nonetheless, her myspace page drives me crazy. Being in the military I guess she would likely have a lot of male friends. But she also answered a question on a survey, 'are you seeing anyone right now' with "I have many potential suitors." :mad:

But then, last week when we got together it was great, she said her schedule should die down pretty soon and she suggested we get together again this week since we have a mutual day off. So she showed some interest there, but I still could be one of many.

[shimma]

It's ok, shimma. A lot of the problem is that she's in the air national guard and flies a lot, sometimes gone for a week or so, and has now had two family catastrophies since I've known her, plus like I said I work a lot of weekends. But nonetheless, her myspace page drives me crazy. Being in the military I guess she would likely have a lot of male friends. But she also answered a question on a survey, 'are you seeing anyone right now' with "I have many potential suitors." :mad:


Sorry, but - if you guys haven't had the DTR talk, she is not officially seeing you. It's OK to date multiple people till you decide you want to go exclusive with one and have the DTR talk. Although... that's quite an interesting response to that question.

PS - Military guys can be pretty crass with a woman they consider "cool". Like I said, yellow flag, not a red one.

[Brillo25]

Sorry, but - if you guys haven't had the DTR talk, she is not officially seeing you. It's OK to date multiple people till you decide you want to go exclusive with one and have the DTR talk.
Oh, I know. I'm certainly not saying she shouldn't date around and I know we're not officially an item or anything. It's just frustrating because in the long time gaps between us going out, I'm afraid she's getting something going with someone else (someone whose boss didn't make him work six weekends in a row), and I'm missing the chance I would have had if we were able to see each other more regularly. She certainly has every right to date others and I wouldn't be upset with her for that, but on my end it's frustrating because I may be missing my chance to establish something, for reasons out of my control, and I really really like this one.

[shimma]

I'm afraid she's getting something going with someone else (someone whose boss didn't make him work six weekends in a row), and I'm missing the chance I would have had if we were able to see each other more regularly.

If that's true, then it sounds like you need to find another job. Seriously. You should have a job, it should not have you.

[Brillo25]

If that's true, then it sounds like you need to find another job. Seriously. You should have a job, it should not have you.
Yeah, I'm wrestling with that. I just took this job 9 months ago because it was a huge raise that I really needed, and everything has been great except for the weekend hours, which theoretically shouldn't be as frequent as they have been lately. I'll have bad stretches like that, but now I'm on my fourth weekend in a row off. It's unpredictable. So I'm definitely evaluating how it affects that nice job vs. time for dating balance.

[wordsmith]

That's newspapers, though, seriously.

I just got into it with a guy who wanted to whine about my availability. Sorry, dude.

[Brillo25]

I have yet to date anyone who's been available enough themselves to even whine about my availablity. But it would definitely be an issue if it continues to be the way it's been.

[wordsmith]

Eh. Most guys are cool.

This guy seemed to want a "beck and call girl," and that ain't me, regardless of my job.

[MetFanL]

This guy seemed to want a "beck and call girl," and that ain't me, regardless of my job.

Eh, if you do that, then they whine, call you "clingy" and say they need space.

[wordsmith]

Yeah, you're always either too independent, or too dependent. No-win.

[MetFanL]

Yeah, you're always either too independent, or too dependent. No-win.

I just think it's an excuse. If guys are saying stuff like that, they're making things harder than they need to be and, if it's right, it's easy, not hard. Just IMO...

[wordsmith]

Of course it's an excuse.

[and1grad]

Brill,
If you look at her myspace list and its nothin but a buncha hoods and people you would otherwise refer to as "stank" or "riff raff," do yourself a favor and PASS on the girl in question. Just a suggestion.