Religion in the workplace....

[capella]

OK, so I'll preface this by saying I'm not religious in any way, shape, or form...

But does your workplace (either in a subtle way or not so subtle) seem to inject religion into everyday things?? I guess it's just the county I'm working in now, but it seems that everyone is all Bless this and Thank you God that and I'll be praying for you. :googly:

I find it very offensive that people assume I'm Christian, that I don't mind the 15 references to the bible and the like they make every hour, and then expect me to give them a Free Good Will pass just because they make a big deal out of how churchgoing they are.

Sorry, dude, trust is something you earn not something you get by mentioning how long you spent at church or with the youth group last weekend. :frustrate Afterall, Judas was a Christian too. :googly:

I suppose it's not so much religion itself that gets me... it's the way people use it to judge, criticize, condemn, and otherwise hold over people. If I say I'm not religious I get the "you've got four heads" look. Somehow, just somehow, I've managed to not maim, rape, plunder, pillage, murder or other such things in my lifetime without looking to Christ to stop me. :rolleyes: I've found a moral compass without the bible.

It would almost be easier to say I'm Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, whatever... just anything but agnostic. What is so difficult to comprehend about that? I don't drink bat blood and dance naked at the equinox for crying out loud. I just think we're all wrong. :razz:

And then to top it off some act differently around you since, well, you're a heathen apparently. What is with this??? I don't get it. This kind of attitude is what makes me despise religiousness even more. When the hell did being a good Christian become all about how friggin' self-righteous you can be? Isn't it all supposed to be about love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek and stuff? Ugh. I'm just waiting for the rounds of "uplifting" chain emails to start.

[Kitty]

Haha..no. My workplace is in no way religious. Today, my new office mate was like, "God Damnit!!" then, he looked at me and said, "please tell me you're not religious in anyway" I said I wasn't and then he said, "Good, cause I say 'God damnit' a lot"

I know that my supervisors are both religious, but they keep it totally to themselves.

[capella]

I know that my supervisors are both religious, but they keep it totally to themselves.
See that's the thing. This is how it should be at work so you don't go around offending people. Religion is a private matter. I wouldn't mind so much if the same people would respect my choice to NOT be religious. But they don't. It's a reason to judge me and that gets on my nerves.

[Kitty]

See that's the thing. This is how it should be at work so you don't go around offending people. Religion is a private matter. I wouldn't mind so much if the same people would respect my choice to NOT be religious. But they don't. It's a reason to judge me and that gets on my nerves.

Yeah, that sucks. I can kind of relate not on a religious level, but a political level..

At my last job EVERYONE was very conservative republican and I am a major liberal. I was CONSTANTLY hearing how awful affirmative action is, how abortion should be illegal, how Bush is FABULOUS, etc. I got so sick of that being shoved down my throat and I felt like I wasn't in any position to really state my opinion or argue because I was in such a low position and everyone was pretty power-trippy there. It sucked :(

I agree, that beliefs/religion/morals should be left out of the workplace.

[capella]

Yeah, that sucks. I can kind of relate not on a religious level, but a political level..

At my last job EVERYONE was very conservative republican and I am a major liberal. I was CONSTANTLY hearing how awful affirmative action is, how abortion should be illegal, how Bush is FABULOUS, etc. I got so sick of that being shoved down my throat and I felt like I wasn't in any position to really state my opinion or argue because I was in such a low position and everyone was pretty power-trippy there. It sucked :(

I agree, that beliefs/religion/morals should be left out of the workplace.
UGH. That would bother me even more. I probably couldn't work in a place like that. As annoying as the underlying religiousness in my work place is... having people spout off on things I disagree with on a core level would bother me even more. It's funny that as religious as a lot of my coworkers are... they tend to be Democrat. Not all, but a good chunk. I think that has more to do with social reasons and the fact we're teachers and all. It's almost like you have to be a Democrat if you're a teacher. :razz:

[yankeeyosh]

At my last job EVERYONE was very conservative republican and I am a major liberal. I was CONSTANTLY hearing how awful affirmative action is, how abortion should be illegal, how Bush is FABULOUS, etc. I got so sick of that being shoved down my throat and I felt like I wasn't in any position to really state my opinion or argue because I was in such a low position and everyone was pretty power-trippy there. It sucked :(

Same here...despite being in purportedly the most liberal city in America, virtually everyone where I work (sans my boss) is a conservative Republican...and while I'm no flower child, I feel like I'm the hippie in the crowd...politics are hardly mentioned where I work, though.

[Kitty]

Yeah, we used to have these Monday lunches which the company paid for and everyone was supposed to bond or whatever. I would spend the whole time feeling totally and completely uncomfortable because of offensive comments that were made and general lack of concern or care that someone might think differently. A lot of my coworkers would refer to anyone liberal as a "hippie" or laugh/make jokes whenever they talked about liberal viewpoints. Not cool.

[shimma]

It would almost be easier to say I'm Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, whatever...

I made the mistake of admitting to being of a certain non "Christian" (in the south, that means a bible thumper who has SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN THE LAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHT and prayed their soul over to JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESUS in a specific moment of conversion, not say, someone who belongs to the ORIGINAL church Christ Himself started) faith at my old job and found effing religious tracts on my chair the next day.

I sent out a little email saying that I found it bigoted, offensive, that someone more openminded would know to respect my faith (older than theirs, maintains itself without televangelism, and theirs branched off of it), and next time it happened I was calling the ACLU.

I didn't get anymore tracts after that.

[wordsmith]

We talk religion a lot, because it comes up a lot. We're a newspaper, faith issues are in the news.

[lonestar]

Two cublicles over in our cube farm there is a woman who listens to the radio preachers and gospel music...every once in a while she shouts out a holla lewya! I had never been exposed to this until I moved to the bible-belt. If it weren't so annoying it would be quite comical. Sometimes I want to tell her I am gay and jewish just to see what happens :razz:

I think everyone knows my feelings on organized religion...thing is if there is a heaven I am so fucked because I sold my soul long ago.

[wordsmith]

Also, I'm stranded in a hotbed of political conservatism, and this is true of my work, as well (because it's true of my region). The two liberals on our staff are coincidentally myself and another writer, who both happen to ALSO be religious observers. It's not like liberal and spiritual are mutually exclusive terms. Of the conservatives I work with, none of them are particularly religious.

[lonestar]

Austin is supposed to be a liberal town, and for the most part it is, but that's because there are so many transplants...all the locals thump their bibles with the best of 'em...

Wordsmith I know your from Ill..I knew someone from Springfield who was Pentacostal and was into speaking in tounges...I actually find that kind of interesting...I did some research on Pentacostals in Kentucky and West Virginia who handled snakes...

[wordsmith]

That's kind of how it goes. Chicago is the only reason Illinois isn't a red state. But that does very little for the few liberals who are living outside the metro area.

[Persephone]

OK, so I'll preface this by saying I'm not religious in any way, shape, or form...

But does your workplace (either in a subtle way or not so subtle) seem to inject religion into everyday things?? I guess it's just the county I'm working in now, but it seems that everyone is all Bless this and Thank you God that and I'll be praying for you. :googly:


I suppose it's not so much religion itself that gets me... it's the way people use it to judge, criticize, condemn, and otherwise hold over people. If I say I'm not religious I get the "you've got four heads" look. Somehow, just somehow, I've managed to not maim, rape, plunder, pillage, murder or other such things in my lifetime without looking to Christ to stop me. :rolleyes: I've found a moral compass without the bible.

It would almost be easier to say I'm Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, whatever... just anything but agnostic. What is so difficult to comprehend about that? I don't drink bat blood and dance naked at the equinox for crying out loud. I just think we're all wrong. :razz:

And then to top it off some act differently around you since, well, you're a heathen apparently. What is with this??? I don't get it. This kind of attitude is what makes me despise religiousness even more. When the hell did being a good Christian become all about how friggin' self-righteous you can be? Isn't it all supposed to be about love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek and stuff? Ugh. I'm just waiting for the rounds of "uplifting" chain emails to start.



I completely know what you are talking about. At my old office, people would, at times, actually have group PRAYER at events (luncheons, etc.). I found this really unbelievable, inappropriate behavior. I mean, it's a BUSINESS and all. I could have complained to upper management (because our company was supposed to be "diverse"), but I felt like most of the people in my office were really all about jesus or something, so I just didn't participate in "prayer" events. Period. I did not partake in any way, shape, or form. Which was fine, it got me out of spending even more time with people that I would rather not spend time with (co-workers). I felt like I was taking the most hospitable route because I let them do their thing without being confrontational. But I believe my approach upset people, and when I quit, my manager told me a lot of people found my actions alienating. Which I found quite ironic given how alienating their behavior was to me. (Especially since I couldn't really eat anything at any of the luncheons because they were generally composed of heaps of meats, a food source in which I do not partake.)

Good luck with all of that. I really feel for you; it sucks to have to be around people who are inconsiderate of your stance(s).

[MollyMe]

I live in the Bible Belt and I've never seen much religion in the workplace. People might mention that they went to church on Sunday but it is treated just like going to the mall on Saturday. No one is trying to look "holy" or make people uncomfortable.
A friend in college was a non-denominational Christian and she always talked about God like "God bless you", "have a blessed day" putting a fish and a cross on her papers. I thought it was a bit too much, but she never meant to make others feel bad.

[lonestar]

Yeah I hate when people tell me to have a blessed day...I don't want to have a blessed day...I'll stick to good, mediocre and shitty days.

[SmilesSoSweet]

I'm a somewhat religious person, but I'm not one to say, "I'll pray for you" or "God Bless You". I usually just say "bless you" if someone sneezes. I don't want to offend anyone so I keep my religious beliefs to myself unless it's asked.

At my last job I did have a boss who would constantly tell me that I should go to church (she was also Catholic) so I can meet my husband. I'm like, "uh, I go to church so that I can be with God and prayer and all that stuff, not to find myself a husband."

But there is one thing that doesn't make any sense. (I may be going off on the topic of this thread). The church I go is in a neighboring city. That city right now is proposing a low that ALL religious facilities follow strict rules on what events they can have on their grounds, limit the number of cars that can be parked on the church's property and a bunch of other stuff that just doesn't make sense. The priest at my church mentioned that another church of another denomination asked the city if they can hold an easter egg hunt on their own church property (I'm assuming that there was going to be more people/cars, etc. at this event) and the City rejected their request. WTF? So a church can't have an Easter egg hunt on Easter on their church property? That makes no sense.

Anyway, I just wanted to vent about that. If I can find the actually wording of this measure I'll post it up here. It just doesn't make any sense. I know that seperation of church and state is one thing that we have here in the States, but still, how can the city limit what events and basically who can attend certain churches, etc? I couldn't sign the petition to stop this measure because I don't work or live in that city. I just like going to that church and if that measure passes in that city, I wouldn't be able to attend that church.

[capella]

That is completely wrong. Church property is private property I'm assuming. The city shouldn't be able to dictate what they can and can't do with holiday events. Ridiculous.

Molly, I'm not quite in the bible belt (a little south) but my mom works in the bible belt and she DEFINITELY sees overt religious happenings at work. Perhaps not all workplaces are like this, but there most surely are those that do have religious connotations running rampant.

Maybe they don't mean it to be offensive, but it is offensive for someone to assume that you agree with thier life views. I am offended by someone saying God Bless You, have a blessed day, let me pray for this and that at church, etc. I don't believe in your god and I don't need his blessing. I find that Rude.

I don't walk around telling people how stupid I find it that they think a bunch of myths and fables (YES, myths and fables) are the word of GOD and should be followed verbatim.

I don't go spouting off on how non-religious I am, oooh look at that, you should just trust me because I'm agnostic. See look I don't take sides. :googly: I do see that from LOTS of Christians where I live. It's like they think mentioning being Christian or church is going to make me trust them automatically. "Look, look at what a good person I am. See I go to church." That is annoying.

If I walked around assuming everyone agreed with my life views I'd probably end up tarred and feathered. It's not like I can tell these people to cut it out. Well, I could find a way to say that but I'll be ostracized for it. What ever happened to tolerance?

I'm pretty sure we have freedom OF and freedom FROM religion. How come freedom from is such a faux paus? It's my right to not believe as much as it is their right to believe. That doesn't make me a bad person and I'm tired of people acting like it does. :googly:

[rocket333d]

I made the mistake of admitting to being of a certain non "Christian" (in the south, that means a bible thumper who has SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN THE LAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHT and prayed their soul over to JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESUS in a specific moment of conversion, not say, someone who belongs to the ORIGINAL church Christ Himself started) faith at my old job and found effing religious tracts on my chair the next day.

I sent out a little email saying that I found it bigoted, offensive, that someone more openminded would know to respect my faith (older than theirs, maintains itself without televangelism, and theirs branched off of it), and next time it happened I was calling the ACLU.

I didn't get anymore tracts after that.

You're a Catholic too, I see. When I was at the IRS, that was when the pope was dying. The IRS has TVs everywhere with Fox News on it and I was watching. This lady who had been bugging me asked me why I cared. I just explained that he had done a lot of good for a lot of poor people, even if I didn't agree with him all the time.

The lady screamed. Literally. Security came over to make sure no one was being murdered. She told me that he was the anti-Christ and why do I care if Satan's son was going to hell. She then kept commanding me to attend the fundamentalist meetings they had every day in the cafeteria. She left tracts on my chair, even once slipped it into my back jeans pocket! I turned around and yelled at her but she smiled, saying "God will always find you."

I went to HR, but the lady there said that what she was doing was perfectly legal. She also suggested that I try out the fundamentalist meetings every once in a while because it might be nice to see her point of view. I actually told the lady that I didn't like being harassed and that I would report this to my lawyer.

I didn't though. Because my term was up in the next week anyway. Hey, they paid good money. But after the lawyer threat, "Churchy LaFemme" sure left me alone.

[WorkInProgress]

Do we have to rehash this again? The gazillion page airplane prayer thread wasn't enough? We just did this.

There are plenty of ignorant, inconsiderate and insensitive people of every pursuasion.

[shimma]

She left tracts on my chair, even once slipped it into my back jeans pocket! I turned around and yelled at her but she smiled, saying "God will always find you."

I went to HR, but the lady there said that what she was doing was perfectly legal. She also suggested that I try out the fundamentalist meetings every once in a while because it might be nice to see her point of view. I actually told the lady that I didn't like being harassed and that I would report this to my lawyer.


You could be a very wealthy woman had you gone to your lawyer. This is illegal, and putting it into your jeans pocket could have beeb construed as assault.

[rocket333d]

You could be a very wealthy woman had you gone to your lawyer. This is illegal, and putting it into your jeans pocket could have beeb construed as assault.

Yeah, but this is the government. I was stone broke and even my lawyer said it might not be worth it. For some reason I was scared that they'd use the fact that I was basically never "on time" for work ever against me.

"On time" means 1/2 hour before we would ever get paid. People actually were already doing work at this time. And considering the on-the-clock time started at 6, I wasn't about to come in at 5:30. (I went to school at night until 11, too.)

[embrassezla]

my workplace seems to be very diverse, religiously. no one really talks about it except to say factual things like "I'm celebrating Hannukah with my inlaws". i like that it's diverse here. lots of jewish people, and i've learned a lot about Judaism. I knew one jewish person before working here. ONE. I like learning about different religions, though I am not religious personally.

[tina1979]

I'm from the bible belt. I'm not super religious although I do have faith. I don't care for people shoving thier religion in my face as I don't do it to them.

We have people who listen to sermons and gospel music at thier desks. I don't find it offensive because maybe one day my music is up a little loud and they don't appreciate linkin park, but they don't say anything because I don't.

There is a lady who sends an email to people she associates with here, me included, that is called the word. Its just a little inspirational ditty or verse everyday. I click on it so that it shows i read it if she checks and I move on. It doesn't take anything away from me to make her a little happy because she thinks she is bringing a little light into my day.

I don't complain when someone says bless you, or if they know I am down or if something is going on in my life that I am struggling with, that they will pray for me. That is just thier way of showing that they care a little. I just say thank you and keep going.

I don't get into religious debates, because as far as I am concerned most religions inevitably believe in the same base things. Everyone will believe what they want in the end no matter what I say.

I don't take offense at other people's beliefs because they want to enjoy it. Just don't tell me what I should or shouldn't believe in and we are good. I'm sure that people who are religious might take offense at my tattos or the fact that i am having a discussion that they overhear about what I did the previous weekend. We all just respect each other and the fact that we all live life a little differently.

[wordsmith]

My coworker and I get into discussions all the time (as I mentioned earlier, it comes up a lot...if things relating to Catholicism are in the news, it's going to be a topic of discussion, because we talk about current events constantly). Because of our talks, she knows my Lutheran background, and I know her Catholic background. We've had a lot of insightful conversations about religion. But it's mutually agreeable conversation. We're both interested in talking about it.

[MollyMe]

I'm a somewhat religious person, but I'm not one to say, "I'll pray for you" or "God Bless You". I usually just say "bless you" if someone sneezes. I don't want to offend anyone so I keep my religious beliefs to myself unless it's asked.

I'll say "Bless you" after a sneeze...it is like a knee jerk reaction. Sometimes "God" will slip into there but I feel uncomfortable saying that to people so I hope they didn't notice or think anything of it.


Maybe they don't mean it to be offensive, but it is offensive for someone to assume that you agree with thier life views. I am offended by someone saying God Bless You, have a blessed day, let me pray for this and that at church, etc. I don't believe in your god and I don't need his blessing. I find that Rude.


I find it offensive that others think that saying "God bless you" is offensive. Are you also offended that you get CHRISTmas off from work?
Maybe they are just trying to show that they care. Humor them... Maybe they wouldn't look at you like you were the devil if you weren't so offended...even if you don't say anything, people can pick up on your facial expressions.

I'm pretty sure we have freedom OF and freedom FROM religion.
And we also have freedom of speech...God Bless You.

[Persephone]

I'll say "Bless you" after a sneeze...it is like a knee jerk reaction. Sometimes "God" will slip into there but I feel uncomfortable saying that to people so I hope they didn't notice or think anything of it.



I find it offensive that others think that saying "God bless you" is offensive. Are you also offended that you get CHRISTmas off from work?
Maybe they are just trying to show that they care. Humor them... Maybe they wouldn't look at you like you were the devil if you weren't so offended...even if you don't say anything, people can pick up on your facial expressions.


And we also have freedom of speech...God Bless You.


I think everybody on this thread has tried to foster an open discussion here. I think you are trying to be hostile, and quite frankly, you are the kind of person that we (or it could be just me) are talking about. I think the idea/goal is acceptance, not confrontation.

[capella]

I think everybody on this thread has tried to foster an open discussion here. I think you are trying to be hostile, and quite frankly, you are the kind of person that we (or it could be just me) are talking about. I think the idea/goal is acceptance, not confrontation.
Exactly.

Mollyme, why do you even bother to post then. If you're so offended by my opinions then why do you read and respond? At least on a messageboard you can choose to ignore and move on. You don't get that luxury in real life with your co-workers. I don't see your point in posting a message like that. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

And quite frankly, I couldn't care less about Christmas. I like giving presents, but for me there is absolutely no religious meaning behind it. Most major holidays have been hijacked by Hallmark anyhow. And most christian holidays are retreads of old pagan celebrations that the church stole to make converting people easier. Does that offend you?

Whatever. It's not like that's even a paid day off for me. I don't get paid for winter break, spring break or summer break. So if I had to work on Christmas it would mean more $$$. I'm down with that.

And I didn't know there was a similar thread WIP. I've been working 12 hour days for the last 16 days in a row. I'm a little burnt out right now.

[MollyMe]

Mollyme, why do you even bother to post then. If you're so offended by my opinions then why do you read and respond? At least on a messageboard you can choose to ignore and move on. You don't get that luxury in real life with your co-workers. I don't see your point in posting a message like that. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?


Sarcasm never posts well. Sorry. I am not offended. I really don't care. There is so much more to life then getting offended over coworkers' comments. Don't let it bother you. I ignore the coworkers I don't want to talk to and it works. My advice would be to ignore them too. Look busy; I open up a few random spreadsheets. Tell them you need to run an urgent errand. Ignore their comments. If you don't like them, don't talk to them. If they inquire about your religious views, tell them that you perfer to leave personal things like that out of the workplace.
I think the dynamics might be different because more teachers are females and more engineers (my profession) are male. Perhaps that is why I don't encounter that stuff.

[snoogans460]

I'm from the bible belt. I'm not super religious although I do have faith. I don't care for people shoving thier religion in my face as I don't do it to them.

We have people who listen to sermons and gospel music at thier desks. I don't find it offensive because maybe one day my music is up a little loud and they don't appreciate linkin park, but they don't say anything because I don't.

There is a lady who sends an email to people she associates with here, me included, that is called the word. Its just a little inspirational ditty or verse everyday. I click on it so that it shows i read it if she checks and I move on. It doesn't take anything away from me to make her a little happy because she thinks she is bringing a little light into my day.

I don't complain when someone says bless you, or if they know I am down or if something is going on in my life that I am struggling with, that they will pray for me. That is just thier way of showing that they care a little. I just say thank you and keep going.

I don't get into religious debates, because as far as I am concerned most religions inevitably believe in the same base things. Everyone will believe what they want in the end no matter what I say.

I don't take offense at other people's beliefs because they want to enjoy it. Just don't tell me what I should or shouldn't believe in and we are good. I'm sure that people who are religious might take offense at my tattos or the fact that i am having a discussion that they overhear about what I did the previous weekend. We all just respect each other and the fact that we all live life a little differently.


You sound very much like myself. I'm a person who believes in Christ because well... I know for a fact that he exists. He's saved me from way too many calamities over the course of my life and has given me purpose to my feeble existence. I've had numerous health issues, done a ton of drugs, blasted a deer on my motorcycle at 120 mph, and am covered in tattoos - just to name a few issues of mine.

Anyhow, because of this reckless past of mine, I feel compelled to share my faith because I do care about other people's eternal salvation. Have I ever pushed my beliefs onto anybody? Hell no, and never will. I share my stories and that's it. If someone comes away spiritually enlightened because of their interaction with me, then great. If not, ask me if I really care - I'm simply trying to make a difference by being a leader instead of pushing.

I honestly don't care how people choose to live their lives because they're going to follow their own ideals regardless, and believe me, I'm far from being some religious freak that feels he's holier than everybody else. Actually, I'm a complete screw-up to say the least. Even still, it pains me to see this world's lack of faith in something greater - because I do know full well there's a Heaven and a Hell.

Just remember, it's better to believe in God and find out he's fake, than not to not believe and find out he's real. This world isn't worth losing your soul over, especially when any of us could be essentially wiped out at any moment. If you wanna believe, then fine... if not... that's your choice too.

[capella]

You sound very much like myself. I'm a person who believes in Christ because well... I know for a fact that he exists. He's saved me from way too many calamities over the course of my life and has given me purpose to my feeble existence. I've had numerous health issues, done a ton of drugs, blasted a deer on my motorcycle at 120 mph, and am covered in tattoos - just to name a few issues of mine.

Anyhow, because of this reckless past of mine, I feel compelled to share my faith because I do care about other people's eternal salvation. Have I ever pushed my beliefs onto anybody? Hell no, and never will. I share my stories and that's it. If someone comes away spiritually enlightened because of their interaction with me, then great. If not, ask me if I really care - I'm simply trying to make a difference by being a leader instead of pushing.

I honestly don't care how people choose to live their lives because they're going to follow their own ideals regardless, and believe me, I'm far from being some religious freak that feels he's holier than everybody else. Actually, I'm a complete screw-up to say the least. Even still, it pains me to see this world's lack of faith in something greater - because I do know full well there's a Heaven and a Hell.

Just remember, it's better to believe in God and find out he's fake, than not to not believe and find out he's real. This world isn't worth losing your soul over, especially when any of us could be essentially wiped out at any moment. If you wanna believe, then fine... if not... that's your choice too.
My suggestion would be to worry about your own "eternal salvation." I don't buy into Heaven and Hell and that's great if you do, but it is really condescending to come post on a thread about how "pained" you are about the "lack of faith" in something greater.

For the record, I'm agnostic. I don't "lack" faith in something greater. I just think we're all wrong so why fight over it? The golden rule is all you need to live a life.

Would you like it if people talked about how much they "know" that God simply can't exist because there is so much bad crap in the world? They just "know" this is true and they worry about your delusions? I'm terribly concerned for your sanity. I'm thinking that statement would bother you. (And for the record I'm really not, I'm being sarcastic. I think you'd be offended for someone saying that to you.)

It's the flipside that I think a lot of people who are "just trying to be nice" don't get. I could think I'm "just trying to be nice" to snap you out of your delusions, but it would bother you if someone came up to you and said that wouldn't it?

All I'm saying is if I respect your right to have your beliefs (by NOT saying things that would offend you like that), then my right to NOT believe should be respected as well. If I were Jewish I betcha the same people would not try to be so "nice" and they'd watch what they said around me because, "Oh, she's Jewish." These same people wouldn't want to look intolerant to people of other faiths. So why is it OK to not be tolerant of having no religious views? Does anyone else see my point?

[capella]

Sarcasm never posts well. Sorry. I am not offended. I really don't care. There is so much more to life then getting offended over coworkers' comments. Don't let it bother you. I ignore the coworkers I don't want to talk to and it works. My advice would be to ignore them too. Look busy; I open up a few random spreadsheets. Tell them you need to run an urgent errand. Ignore their comments. If you don't like them, don't talk to them. If they inquire about your religious views, tell them that you perfer to leave personal things like that out of the workplace.
I think the dynamics might be different because more teachers are females and more engineers (my profession) are male. Perhaps that is why I don't encounter that stuff.
I do tend to ignore this kind of stuff and change the conversation. I was just venting because this is a place I can do that without pissing off anybody I work with. Once the kids return I won't have a lot of time for theological discussions at work anyhow. It's just irritating to be trying to get things together in my classroom and having people interrupt me with small talk about this topic and other things.

[drdeadringer]

I work for a large company and it seems to vary with geography. In a Southern location, there was one day we had a group meal which started with a pre-eating blessing [aka 'Grace']; though it was assumed everyone was some form of Christian, it was fine if you weren't and all good. In a Northern location, religion is not often talked about, though there are the random encounters of people's different religions [an ITS guy sincerly saying 'God Bless You' instead of "goodbye", a random mention of God or Allah or Jews, whatever], the assuming someone was some form of some religion less sensed.

[Tenshi28]

All I'm saying is if I respect your right to have your beliefs (by NOT saying things that would offend you like that), then my right to NOT believe should be respected as well. If I were Jewish I betcha the same people would not try to be so "nice" and they'd watch what they said around me because, "Oh, she's Jewish." These same people wouldn't want to look intolerant to people of other faiths. So why is it OK to not be tolerant of having no religious views? Does anyone else see my point?

I am agnostic myself and I completely agree with you. I respect everybody's beliefs and I expect everybody else to respect mine, whether it's having a different religion or not having one at all. I don't need anybody to tell me all condescendingly "how sorry" they feel about me for not believing what they do.

Besides, in my case, and I am sure with many other people, it's not a matter of denying there must be something else than us, or that this life is all there is, it's simply a matter than I don't buy any of the established religions and they explanations they offer. Billions of people do believe in them? all right, that's fine and dandy with me, good for them, but I think I am old enough to have my own beliefs.

Religions can be great if terms of offering comfort to a lot of people and try to make them be a better person, for them I completely respect them, but when intolerance comes in then, I am sorry, but I can't stand close minded, absurdly stubborn people.

[snoogans460]

My suggestion would be to worry about your own "eternal salvation." I don't buy into Heaven and Hell and that's great if you do, but it is really condescending to come post on a thread about how "pained" you are about the "lack of faith" in something greater.

For the record, I'm agnostic. I don't "lack" faith in something greater. I just think we're all wrong so why fight over it? The golden rule is all you need to live a life.

Would you like it if people talked about how much they "know" that God simply can't exist because there is so much bad crap in the world? They just "know" this is true and they worry about your delusions? I'm terribly concerned for your sanity. I'm thinking that statement would bother you. (And for the record I'm really not, I'm being sarcastic. I think you'd be offended for someone saying that to you.)

It's the flipside that I think a lot of people who are "just trying to be nice" don't get. I could think I'm "just trying to be nice" to snap you out of your delusions, but it would bother you if someone came up to you and said that wouldn't it?

All I'm saying is if I respect your right to have your beliefs (by NOT saying things that would offend you like that), then my right to NOT believe should be respected as well. If I were Jewish I betcha the same people would not try to be so "nice" and they'd watch what they said around me because, "Oh, she's Jewish." These same people wouldn't want to look intolerant to people of other faiths. So why is it OK to not be tolerant of having no religious views? Does anyone else see my point?


I'm just curious? How am I being condescending? Delusions? Please. Being delusional stems from Satan's grasp on humanity, since all his wicked schemes originate from falsehood. Of course he wants everybody to fall into his trap, and he's hardening your heart right now in your stubborness to hold yourself accountable to the Good Lord.

Heck, even the Devil believes that Christ exists - but his ultimate desire is to overtake his throne, which will obviously never happen. Just remember that we're all part of the same statistic - 10 out of 10 people die, and who's to say that your (or my) heart couldn't fail right this instant? I'm only speaking from truth and I refuse to hold my beliefs in because I've been called to help bring people to the light.

Laugh all you want but one day (could be today), we'll all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Let's just say that you continue to remain a skeptic and life ceases from your body. God will show you all those time where you had the opportunity to turn your life over to him... this thread possibly being one of those instances.

Just because I believe in God doesn't make me better than yourself or vice versa. It's not a freakin' competition. You can choose to follow your own ways, but just know that Jesus did try and reach you, so you have absolutely no excuse when you pass on through this life.

[Tenshi28]

You can choose to follow your own ways, but just know that Jesus did try and reach you, so you have absolutely no excuse when you pass on through this life.

That kind of "threat" sort of tone is just one of the things that don't make religion very appealing to me.

[snoogans460]

How am I being threatening? I'm simply speaking from truth. Go ahead, follow your own way - see if I care. I'm not telling you to follow my way... but open up your heart and follow God's way - that's all. I'm not forcing you to do anything. Like I mentioned, you choose your own path - it's not interfering with my life.

[Tenshi28]

How am I being threatening? I'm simply speaking from truth. Go ahead, follow your own way - see if I care. I'm not telling you to follow my way... but open up your heart and follow God's way - that's all. I'm not forcing you to do anything. Like I mentioned, you choose your own path - it's not interfering with my life.

It's not that you are threatening me directly, it's all about the tone of your words and the way you believe in things, that I am free to believe what I want but that eventually I'll find out you were right and I was wrong.

Couldn't there be any chance that what you believe is not right?

That's what I am talking about.

[biodork]

All I'm saying is if I respect your right to have your beliefs (by NOT saying things that would offend you like that), then my right to NOT believe should be respected as well. If I were Jewish I betcha the same people would not try to be so "nice" and they'd watch what they said around me because, "Oh, she's Jewish." These same people wouldn't want to look intolerant to people of other faiths. So why is it OK to not be tolerant of having no religious views? Does anyone else see my point?
I'm with you on this one. I feel like people are less tolerant toward those without any religious views than those that have them. I'm an atheist myself.


How am I being threatening? I'm simply speaking from truth. Go ahead, follow your own way - see if I care. I'm not telling you to follow my way... but open up your heart and follow God's way - that's all. I'm not forcing you to do anything. Like I mentioned, you choose your own path - it's not interfering with my life.
This is what YOU believe. Myself and others do not care for religion and we don't like to be told were going to go to hell constantly for not believing. Even if we don't believe there is a heavan and hell, TELLING us we're going to hell is not respecting our beliefs. People have differences of opinion, and I personally do NOT believe in any higher power or afterlife whatsoever. Whenever someone like you says things like this "but open up your heart and follow God's way" that makes me like religion even less.

I seriously don't know how else to explain it. I'm convinced that those who are religious will never understand why us "heathens" find being told "god bless you" is insulting.

[Winter Storm]

Just remember, it's better to believe in God and find out he's fake, than not to not believe and find out he's real.

This to me, is pushing your beliefs a wee bit. I'd say it's better for you to believe. But you can't tell me what is better for me to believe.

I don't think anyone can tell another what to believe. That is pushing.

[Winter Storm]

I'm not telling you to follow my way... but open up your heart and follow God's way - that's all. I'm not forcing you to do anything. Like I mentioned, you choose your own path - it's not interfering with my life.

Contradictions.

Isn't following God's way, your way? By telling people to follow your/God's way, you are again, dumping your religion on them.

Just trying to make you see things from a different perspective.

[lonestar]

Just remember, it's better to believe in God and find out he's fake, than not to not believe and find out he's real. This world isn't worth losing your soul over, especially when any of us could be essentially wiped out at any moment. If you wanna believe, then fine... if not... that's your choice too.

So you contend that one should hedge his/her bet by believing...your plan is interesting, but it assumes the following:

1) I think people have inherent beliefs, and it is hard to fool yourself into believing something that you truly don't...it would be like "going through the motions".
2) If there is a God, I am sure she wouldn't be all that impressed by contrived devotion for the purposes of "getting in"...after all, if God is all powerful and all knowing, you wouldn't be able to fake it...

[Winter Storm]

2) If there is a God, I am sure she wouldn't be all that impressed by contrived devotion for the purposes of "getting in"...after all, if God is all powerful and all knowing, you wouldn't be able to fake it...
I love that you said 'she'. Ha!

I also think if there was a God, belief wouldn't be necessary, as it would be common, universal knowledge.

Do we have to believe in the air we breath or the sun that rises everyday or the rain that falls? We don't because we know it is there. It does not require any belief.

[wordsmith]

I also used to work for a Lutheran church, it goes without saying that there was "religion in the workplace." :googly:

[CTGirl]

All I have to say about this is: snoogans, you, and people like you, scare me.

[Tenshi28]

All I have to say about this is: snoogans, you, and people like you, scare me.

Me too.


P.S. CTGirl, your signature cracks me up!! :huge: did you come up with it?

[CTGirl]

Me too.


P.S. CTGirl, your signature cracks me up!! :huge: did you come up with it?

Sadly no, it's from Mitch Hedberg....suppose I oughta give him credit for that, lol

[wordsmith]

Time for me to haul out my cut and paste disclaimer...

Not everyone who considers themselves to be religious practices or believes as snoogans460 does.

I don't believe ANYbody goes to hell...that's not what my religion is about. I do not believe there is a hell, and I do not believe that people are condemned to any sort of afterlife punishment.

[lonestar]

I was kinda excited about hell...I see scantily clad women with whips 'torturing' me...just kidding...

[wordsmith]

That's a different religion entirely, Lonestar... :rolleyes:

[CTGirl]

I was kinda excited about hell...I see scantily clad women with whips 'torturing' me...just kidding...

LOL, interesting point.....I wonder what it would be like if you got all the bad people in the world together in one place......I mean, look how well Australia turned out!

[Winter Storm]

LOL, interesting point.....I wonder what it would be like if you got all the bad people in the world together in one place......I mean, look how well Australia turned out!

I have my theories its gonna be one big, banging ass party. And I'll be in VIP! :twisted: :cool: :huge:

[lonestar]

Most of my friends will be there.

[rocket333d]

You sound very much like myself. I'm a person who believes in Christ because well... I know for a fact that he exists. He's saved me from way too many calamities over the course of my life and has given me purpose to my feeble existence. I've had numerous health issues, done a ton of drugs, blasted a deer on my motorcycle at 120 mph, and am covered in tattoos - just to name a few issues of mine.

Anyhow, because of this reckless past of mine, I feel compelled to share my faith because I do care about other people's eternal salvation. Have I ever pushed my beliefs onto anybody? Hell no, and never will. I share my stories and that's it. If someone comes away spiritually enlightened because of their interaction with me, then great. If not, ask me if I really care - I'm simply trying to make a difference by being a leader instead of pushing.

I honestly don't care how people choose to live their lives because they're going to follow their own ideals regardless, and believe me, I'm far from being some religious freak that feels he's holier than everybody else. Actually, I'm a complete screw-up to say the least. Even still, it pains me to see this world's lack of faith in something greater - because I do know full well there's a Heaven and a Hell.

Just remember, it's better to believe in God and find out he's fake, than not to not believe and find out he's real. This world isn't worth losing your soul over, especially when any of us could be essentially wiped out at any moment. If you wanna believe, then fine... if not... that's your choice too.

See, that sounds okay. You don't hound people, and you explain your faith through what it has done for you. But as far as I can see, you don't make that a selling point. "Christ has done this for me, now join up, and see what he can do for you!" There's a difference between sharing your experiences (which I think is actually more effective if you want people to join) or using it as an excuse to try to recruit people.

I would disagree with your last paragraph, though. You can't make yourself believe something you don't. I can't make myself believe there's no God. In the back of my mind, my concept of God will always be there. Just like for someone who doesn't believe in God, they cannot just say "I believe in God now," and have it be so.

[wordsmith]

I don't agree with the last paragraph, either, because I don't believe that anybody's soul is in danger (my faith teaches me that salvation is a done deal, not something you have to earn). So I can't say I think that anybody needs to worry about "losing his or her soul."

However, I think that there are people who will take anybody talking about their religion, even in the abstract, to be "pushing your beliefs on them," which is kind of an overreaction, in my book (and usually just a kneejerk reaction to having actually HAD beliefs pushed on them in the past). Me saying what I believe is NOT proselytizing to you (anymore than me saying, "I liked 'Lady in the Water,' and explaining why is me telling you that YOU, too, should like 'Lady in the Water,' and if you don't, you just don't know what's good for you). I think there are a lot of people who have major overreactions to anything religious in nature, and are pretty disrespectful of people who aren't, in fact, pushing anything on them.

In my opinion, explaining your faith is fine, discussing religion and spirituality is fine, and I'm sorry if TALKING about religion offends people. Actually, I'm not. I don't really care if it does. I don't think talking about your own experiences with religion is proselytizing at all, and my opening my mouth and saying what I believe, ANYwhere I want to do that, is completely my right, and is not "pushing" my beliefs. If an agnostic or an atheist talks about being agnostic, are they "pushing" their beliefs on me? No. They're talking about what they believe. Big friggin' deal.

[Winter Storm]

I don't agree with the last paragraph, either, because I don't believe that anybody's soul is in danger (my faith teaches me that salvation is a done deal, not something you have to earn). So I can't say I think that anybody needs to worry about "losing his or her soul."

However, I think that there are people who will take anybody talking about their religion, even in the abstract, to be "pushing your beliefs on them," which is kind of an overreaction, in my book (and usually just a kneejerk reaction to having actually HAD beliefs pushed on them in the past). Me saying what I believe is NOT proselytizing to you (anymore than me saying, "I liked 'Lady in the Water,' and explaining why is me telling you that YOU, too, should like 'Lady in the Water,' and if you don't, you just don't know what's good for you). I think there are a lot of people who have major overreactions to anything religious in nature, and are pretty disrespectful of people who aren't, in fact, pushing anything on them.

In my opinion, explaining your faith is fine, discussing religion and spirituality is fine, and I'm sorry if TALKING about religion offends people. Actually, I'm not. I don't really care if it does. I don't think talking about your own experiences with religion is proselytizing at all, and my opening my mouth and saying what I believe, ANYwhere I want to do that, is completely my right, and is not "pushing" my beliefs. If an agnostic or an atheist talks about being agnostic, are they "pushing" their beliefs on me? No. They're talking about what they believe. Big friggin' deal.

As an agnostic, I also do NOT think all religious people think or act the way snoogans does.

I also do not have a problem with people explaining or sharing their beliefs with me. It helps me get a better understanding of why they believe. That is cool.

It is only when people tell me what I should believe, that gets under my skin.

[wordsmith]

I agree. I think that most people feel that way. We are all (or should be, anyway) confident in our beliefs. I'm always open to learning more, but I never am keen with people telling me what I should or shouldn't believe, in any circumstance. We decide that for ourselves. I respect that in others, and I'm religious, myself. People need to come to their own understandings of things on their own. I can share my own experiences, but everybody's got to do things their own way.

[CTGirl]

As an agnostic, I also do NOT think all religious people think or act the way snoogans does.

I also do not have a problem with people explaining or sharing their beliefs with me. It helps me get a better understanding of why they believe. That is cool.

It is only when people tell me what I should believe, that gets under my skin.

Exactly, or when they try to tell me that if I don't beleive what they do that terrible things will happen to me. You cant scare me by telling me I'm going to hell if I dont believe there is one.

[biodork]

As an agnostic, I also do NOT think all religious people think or act the way snoogans does.

I also do not have a problem with people explaining or sharing their beliefs with me. It helps me get a better understanding of why they believe. That is cool.

It is only when people tell me what I should believe, that gets under my skin.
I don't think that all religious people act that way either. And I also hate when I'm told that I need to believe what someone else does.

But when it comes to discussing beliefs, I still feel that it isn't easy under normal settings for an agnostic or atheist to speak their mind because their is automatically a stigma associated with it. I have gradually become much stronger in my own personal beliefs over the years and have been able to discuss them more. But growing up if I even mentioned what I thought I'd get bad looks, even from my own friends, so I learned to keep my mouth shut otherwise I'd be judged.

I'm very lucky now to be in a setting where I can discuss what I think, because the majority of the people who I work with feel the same way.

[LakeJay]

It is only when people tell me what I should believe, that gets under my skin.

I can understand this. I try to think of the intent behind the person's message though. I compare it with my friends who tell me "you HAVE to get Sirius radio" or "you HAVE to get Tivo/DVR". Yeah I get it...you like it...you love it...it's great but do you have to tell me about it every time I see you? I think it can get that way for some overzealous religious people. Their religion has been so helpful in their lives and in many ways have made them happy. Now if there was a product or something that made your life "better" wouldn't you want to share that with your family/friends if you felt that it would help them out? Not the best analogy but I really do think that is how plenty of people see their religion.

[rocket333d]

How am I being threatening? I'm simply speaking from truth. Go ahead, follow your own way - see if I care. I'm not telling you to follow my way... but open up your heart and follow God's way - that's all. I'm not forcing you to do anything. Like I mentioned, you choose your own path - it's not interfering with my life.

Whoops. That'll teach me to read everything before I post.

Um, telling me to open my heart and follow God's way is telling me to follow your way. If it's not interfering with your life, why is the lack of faith in the world distressing you as you say?

If I opened my heart and followed God's way according to the Koran, or the Torah (by itself), or Ancient Grecian texts, would you be happy with me? Would that be less pain for you?

Personally, I label myself Catholic because of the good that Catholics I have known have done for me and my family. They have led through example and have never asked me to "follow God's way." They are also for the most part perfectly fine with me believing the following:

-Jesus was a great philosopher, divine son of god or not
-His divinity doesn't matter. He may have been the catalyst for compassionate religious philosophy in Western civilization. The miracles and specialness are just details to me.
-Heaven and Hell are in a lot of question because where would God draw the line at what is a damnable offense? Purgatory was added to the Catholic belief later on. Is that what's really true?
-I think, if there is an afterlife, everyone winds up in the same place. No exceptions.
-I happen to believe in god. I just do. If it turned out god didn't exist, I wouldn't be too upset.
-The Christian bible was written by man. Also, it was translated many times over many years. There are even several versions of English bibles. Also, there are many many other books the bible did not include. Does that mean those weren't "inspired by God" like the ones that made it in?

My beliefs basically work on what I perceive to be true. If it turns out they aren't, no big deal.

[wordsmith]

I can understand this. I try to think of the intent behind the person's message though. I compare it with my friends who tell me "you HAVE to get Sirius radio" or "you HAVE to get Tivo/DVR". Yeah I get it...you like it...you love it...it's great but do you have to tell me about it every time I see you? I think it can get that way for some overzealous religious people. Their religion has been so helpful in their lives and in many ways have made them happy. Now if there was a product or something that made your life "better" wouldn't you want to share that with your family/friends if you felt that it would help them out? Not the best analogy but I really do think that is how plenty of people see their religion.

Actually, I don't think that's a bad analogy at all. It's also not unlike people telling vegetarians that they can't believe they don't eat meat. People always like to justify their choices in life and talk about why they think they're the best choices, and religion is really no different.

[shimma]

Laugh all you want but one day (could be today), we'll all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Let's just say that you continue to remain a skeptic and life ceases from your body. God will show you all those time where you had the opportunity to turn your life over to him... this thread possibly being one of those instances.

Just because I believe in God doesn't make me better than yourself or vice versa. It's not a freakin' competition. You can choose to follow your own ways, but just know that Jesus did try and reach you, so you have absolutely no excuse when you pass on through this life.

Excuse me, could you come across as any more of a self-righteous asshole?

Who the hell do you think you are to hint that the "unbeleivers" on this thread are going to hell because of their beliefs? What the eff kind of Christian are you? Remember what JESUS said about "Judge not, lest you be judged", "Before you address the speck in your neighbor's eye, address the plank in your own", etc? Or have you been too busy shooting heroin and inking your entire body to pay attention to the actual meaning of the "born again" fad that you're so self-righteously shoving in everyone's faces? You are so clearly just someone who PRETENDS to be a good Christian in the hopes that other people think better of you, if you can't practice or even be familiar with the message you are preaching.

Did God die and appoint you as his proxy to determine who goes to heaven or not?

Yeah, I didn't think so. So shut the fuck up. And next time, consider that when religious people come across the way you do, it puts nonreligious people off religion, and for a very good reason.

[shimma]

I can understand this. I try to think of the intent behind the person's message though. I compare it with my friends who tell me "you HAVE to get Sirius radio" or "you HAVE to get Tivo/DVR". Yeah I get it...you like it...you love it...it's great but do you have to tell me about it every time I see you?

But your friends aren't telling you you're a bad person (or liken you to Satan, the embodiment of pure evil) or that you're doomed for eternal torment, if you don't get Sirius or Tivo or whatever. They're just saying they love it and it's made their life better, they're not judging you for not having it. There's a huge difference.

[wordsmith]

Personally, I label myself Catholic because of the good that Catholics I have known have done for me and my family. They have led through example and have never asked me to "follow God's way." They are also for the most part perfectly fine with me believing the following:

-Jesus was a great philosopher, divine son of god or not
-His divinity doesn't matter. He may have been the catalyst for compassionate religious philosophy in Western civilization. The miracles and specialness are just details to me.
-Heaven and Hell are in a lot of question because where would God draw the line at what is a damnable offense? Purgatory was added to the Catholic belief later on. Is that what's really true?
-I think, if there is an afterlife, everyone winds up in the same place. No exceptions.
-I happen to believe in god. I just do. If it turned out god didn't exist, I wouldn't be too upset.
-The Christian bible was written by man. Also, it was translated many times over many years. There are even several versions of English bibles. Also, there are many many other books the bible did not include. Does that mean those weren't "inspired by God" like the ones that made it in?

My beliefs basically work on what I perceive to be true. If it turns out they aren't, no big deal.

This is pretty much where I'm at, too. Except that I'm Lutheran, not Catholic, so there are some dogmatic differences in regard to heaven/hell, the nature of salvation and grace, and definitely purgatory.

[wordsmith]

But your friends aren't telling you you're a bad person (or liken you to Satan, the embodiment of pure evil) or that you're doomed for eternal torment, if you don't get Sirius or Tivo or whatever. They're just saying they love it and it's made their life better, they're not judging you for not having it. There's a huge difference.

But not all religious people tell people that, either. Some just say they love it and it's made their lives better.

[shimma]

But not all religious people tell people that, either. Some just say they love it and it's made their lives better.

True, I guess I just am thinking more of snoogans, whose ignorant, self-righteous, judgemental pedantics are making me sick to my hellbound (because what I believe regarding salvation is evvvvver so slightly different from his denomination) Catholic stomach. Literally.

[LakeJay]

But your friends aren't telling you you're a bad person (or liken you to Satan, the embodiment of pure evil) or that you're doomed for eternal torment, if you don't get Sirius or Tivo or whatever. They're just saying they love it and it's made their life better, they're not judging you for not having it. There's a huge difference.

You're right...it is a big difference. I think the point is to not assume that if someone is "singing the praises" of their religion to you, it's not to condemn/demean/convert/etc. you. They're basically just singing the praises of their religion.

[wordsmith]

Don't forget, though, that plenty of Catholics "push" their beliefs on others...it's not like any group is immune. I can't tell you, as a protestant, how many times Catholics have told me that my faith isn't "true," because I don't attend the "real" church. Like there IS a "real" church. :rolleyes:

[wordsmith]

You're right...it is a big difference. I think the point is to not assume that if someone is "singing the praises" of their religion to you, it's not to condemn/demean/convert/etc. you. They're basically just singing the praises of their religion.

Exactly...this is where the overreactions and knee-jerk sensitivity I was talking about earlier comes in. There are quite a few people who would, in their heads, translate me talking about why I like my religion as a condemnation of them for NOT buying into it. Which is not what I'm doing, but there are tons of people who will, and do, make that leap. It's a little chip-on-the-shoulder, and presumptuous as well, to think that because I'm saying why my religion works for me, I'm telling you that it should work for you, too, or belittling you if you don't think how I think.

[rocket333d]

This discussion reminds me of an analogy I made up.

Pretend you are a parent of two little kids. You're running an errand with Kid #1, and you both see someone whose grocery bag has broken and all their items dropped. Kid #1 goes over and helps the person recover all the items and put them in another bag (or two.) You ask Kid #1 why he has done this, and he says "Because that person needed help."

Some other day, you're out on an errand with Kid #2. Another person has the same thing happen to them, with the broken grocery bag. Kid #2 does nothing until you ask him/her to help the person. When you ask Kid #2 why they helped, they say "Because you told me to."

Which kid do you think did the right thing for the right reason?

I liken this analogy to people who will do things just because "God says so" versus people who do things because "it is the right thing to do."

[rocket333d]

Don't forget, though, that plenty of Catholics "push" their beliefs on others...it's not like any group is immune. I can't tell you, as a protestant, how many times Catholics have told me that my faith isn't "true," because I don't attend the "real" church. Like there IS a "real" church. :rolleyes:

And vice-versa. I don't need a new label to separate myself from those who would do that. I don't know anyone who does, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty.

[shimma]

Don't forget, though, that plenty of Catholics "push" their beliefs on others...it's not like any group is immune. I can't tell you, as a protestant, how many times Catholics have told me that my faith isn't "true," because I don't attend the "real" church. Like there IS a "real" church. :rolleyes:


Absolutely, and coming from a "mixed" marriage, I hear it from all sides, and the people who tell it are all jackasses.

But I'm willing to bet snodgrass here is a Protestant, basd on the way he writes. :evil:. It's extremely offensive no matter who it comes from.

[ScottyTheBody]

This discussion reminds me of an analogy I made up.

Pretend you are a parent of two little kids. You're running an errand with Kid #1, and you both see someone whose grocery bag has broken and all their items dropped. Kid #1 goes over and helps the person recover all the items and put them in another bag (or two.) You ask Kid #1 why he has done this, and he says "Because that person needed help."

Some other day, you're out on an errand with Kid #2. Another person has the same thing happen to them, with the broken grocery bag. Kid #2 does nothing until you ask him/her to help the person. When you ask Kid #2 why they helped, they say "Because you told me to."

Which kid do you think did the right thing for the right reason?

I liken this analogy to people who will do things just because "God says so" versus people who do things because "it is the right thing to do."

Do you think we "do the right thing" because in the past we've been told to do the right thing?

[Winter Storm]

This discussion reminds me of an analogy I made up.

Pretend you are a parent of two little kids. You're running an errand with Kid #1, and you both see someone whose grocery bag has broken and all their items dropped. Kid #1 goes over and helps the person recover all the items and put them in another bag (or two.) You ask Kid #1 why he has done this, and he says "Because that person needed help."

Some other day, you're out on an errand with Kid #2. Another person has the same thing happen to them, with the broken grocery bag. Kid #2 does nothing until you ask him/her to help the person. When you ask Kid #2 why they helped, they say "Because you told me to."

Which kid do you think did the right thing for the right reason?

I liken this analogy to people who will do things just because "God says so" versus people who do things because "it is the right thing to do."

Hmm. I think this is a great analogy for people who are blind followers; those that do things just because Jesus told them to.

But it's not to assume that all religious followers are blind followers.

[WorkInProgress]

Do you think we "do the right thing" because in the past we've been told to do the right thing?

Sometimes, maybe. Some people really are naturally empathetic, though.

[ScottyTheBody]

Sometimes, maybe. Some people really are naturally empathetic, though.

Interesting...I kind of think that empathy is somewhat learned and can originate somewhat naturally.

One of my friends believes that empathy is entirely learned (mostly from experience).

[rocket333d]

Interesting...I kind of think that empathy is somewhat learned and can originate somewhat naturally.

One of my friends believes that empathy is entirely learned (mostly from experience).

I think that that's true. Humans basically learn that to help others feel good is the right thing to do, because we'd want someone to help us when we have a problem. No one necessarily has to tell us, I think.

And yes, I meant just blind followers. Someone who is faithful, but not blindly so, has basically put their own morals--developed through experience--first, especially in choosing a religion that gels with those. This person may have disagreements with their faith's doctrine, and will do what they feel is right, while a blind follower was probably born into a religion and will do what that religion tells them, despite what harm it may do, "because God says so."

[CTGirl]

Interesting...I kind of think that empathy is somewhat learned and can originate somewhat naturally.

One of my friends believes that empathy is entirely learned (mostly from experience).

As a former psychology major, I see everything as both learned and in-born.

I think we are born with some form of human decency (unless you're a sociopath) but then we are also taugh right and wrong as we grow up--you can see this in how different cultures perceive right and wrong.

[shimma]

I think we are born with some form of human decency (unless you're a sociopath)

Sociopath. What a fun word! One of my favorites.

Anyone here know any sociopaths?

[WorkInProgress]

Sociopath. What a fun word! One of my favorites.

Wrong thread! ;)

(PS--Yeah, it's a cool, cool word. Not so cool as people, though. Or so it seems.)

[Kitty]

If it's a friend/SO/family member, etc. I am actually really open to hearing about their religious beliefs (as long as they aren't judging me or trying to tell me what to believe). I find it interesting to hear people's personal takes on religion and life, etc.

But in the workplace I don't care to hear anyone's beliefs or personal theories on the meaning of life, etc. Honestly, that kind of talk in the work place - whether it's religious or not - just freaks me out and makes me uncomfortable. I'm one of those types that draws professional boundaries. I know there's other here that don't do that or aren't as strict about it, but it's really important to me and I like when people respect the work/professional environment.

[Jedi of Zen]

I've been asked about my religious beliefs at job interviews before. Fundamentalist Christianity is almost a given aspect of society at large when you live in the deep south.

[MollyMe]

I'm with you on this one. I feel like people are less tolerant toward those without any religious views than those that have them. I'm an atheist myself.

I don't think that people are not tolerant of agnostics/atheists. I think that people feel threatened by agnostics/atheists by not being able to practice their faith. For example, I heard something about France banning individuals from wearing religious symbols in public schools. Some people who are religious would not want to see their faith treated like profanities.

[Kitty]

I've been asked about my religious beliefs at job interviews before. Fundamentalist Christianity is almost a given aspect of society at large when you live in the deep south.

What? Isn't that illegal?

[wordsmith]

It would depend on the job. When I worked for a church-run organization, it absolutely came up.

[Jedi of Zen]

What? Isn't that illegal?

I guess the person who interviewed me (the owner & manager of the company, actually) didn't seem to think so.

[biodork]

I don't think that people are not tolerant of agnostics/atheists. I think that people feel threatened by agnostics/atheists by not being able to practice their faith. For example, I heard something about France banning individuals from wearing religious symbols in public schools. Some people who are religious would not want to see their faith treated like profanities.
The rest of the world is far more tolerant of atheists than the US is. Maybe that happened in france but I seriously doubt that will ever happen here.

[Kitty]

I guess the person who interviewed me (the owner & manager of the company, actually) didn't seem to think so.

well, hopefully you didn't take that job!

[wordsmith]

The rest of the world is far more tolerant of atheists than the US is. Maybe that happened in france but I seriously doubt that will ever happen here.

This is interesting to me, because as a religious person, I feel that people, particularly people in my age group, who are the least churchgoing sector of the population, are not tolerant of ME, and MY beliefs (which I don't evangelize to anybody).

[biodork]

This is interesting to me, because as a religious person, I feel that people, particularly people in my age group, who are the least churchgoing sector of the population, are not tolerant of ME, and MY beliefs (which I don't evangelize to anybody).
I'm just going by world statistics. I just think that when you have a higher percentage of religious or nonreligious in a country, it says something about who is welcome there.

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

And as for France, they are far more strict with their separation of church and state, which is apparently something from back in their history.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3325285.stm

[Kitty]

This is interesting to me, because as a religious person, I feel that people, particularly people in my age group, who are the least churchgoing sector of the population, are not tolerant of ME, and MY beliefs (which I don't evangelize to anybody).

Yeah, but I feel teh same way being a non-religious person.

[wordsmith]

I'm not arguing with that, I'm just saying that whenever you are in the minority and it's a contentious issue, you tend to feel rather attacked. And although as a Christian, I'm not in the minority in the nation, I definitely am on the boards, and I'd be lying if I said I don't feel from time to time attacked, insulted, and/or belittled for it.

[capella]

If it's a friend/SO/family member, etc. I am actually really open to hearing about their religious beliefs (as long as they aren't judging me or trying to tell me what to believe). I find it interesting to hear people's personal takes on religion and life, etc.

But in the workplace I don't care to hear anyone's beliefs or personal theories on the meaning of life, etc. Honestly, that kind of talk in the work place - whether it's religious or not - just freaks me out and makes me uncomfortable. I'm one of those types that draws professional boundaries. I know there's other here that don't do that or aren't as strict about it, but it's really important to me and I like when people respect the work/professional environment.
Thanks Kitty. That's exactly how I feel. I'm not opposed to religious discussions, but there's a time and a place. I don't think it's a kneejerk reaction to be bothered when people bring up religion out of the blue and then look at you weird when you answer them or treat you differently if they know you're not religious. Work (especially when I'm trying to get stuff done) is not the time or place.

I can see how it happens in a newsroom (I had plenty of interesting, not offensive discussions about religion when I worked at the paper... and it was relevant to what we were doing). But when I'm putting up a bulletin board and you interrupt me to ask me if I go to church.... that's pushing beyond the boundary. There are things you don't ask your co-workers.

[stonemonkey]

I'm not arguing with that, I'm just saying that whenever you are in the minority and it's a contentious issue, you tend to feel rather attacked. And although as a Christian, I'm not in the minority in the nation, I definitely am on the boards, and I'd be lying if I said I don't feel from time to time attacked, insulted, and/or belittled for it.

Yeah, I've probably been a major culprit behind this, I'm sorry if it came across as attacking/insulting/belittling. It seems like I can't say anything about it without it coming across that way, so I'm just going to stay silent on it.

[MollyMe]

But when I'm putting up a bulletin board and you interrupt me to ask me if I go to church.... that's pushing beyond the boundary. There are things you don't ask your co-workers.

That is just rude. Sorry you have to work with those people.

When I lived in NC, my neighbors came over to ask us if we had a church.

[MollyMe]

The rest of the world is far more tolerant of atheists than the US is. Maybe that happened in france but I seriously doubt that will ever happen here.
Not saying that would happen here. Here, last winter there was controversy about "Happy Holidays". People just start to feel threatened.
I don't understand how agnostics and atheists are not tolerated here. Individuals may try to convert you but I don't see any widespread intolerance.

[biodork]

Not saying that would happen here. Here, last winter there was controversy about "Happy Holidays". People just start to feel threatened.
I don't understand how agnostics and atheists are not tolerated here. Individuals may try to convert you but I don't see any widespread intolerance.

"I have many atheists friends but they are NOTHING like you people are. God will forgive me for beating your brains out."

http://www.fstdt.com/

I'm not saying these people represent every single religious person out there, but the filth that comes out of the mouths of the different people who get posted on that site makes me think twice about sharing my beliefs with anyone I don't know well. They might be coming from all over the world but that doesn't mean I'm not going to be cautious.

[Kitty]

I also don't think that Christians even realize the amount of religious stuff that is EVERYWHERE in our culture and that for non-religious people it is a constant bombardment.

It's easy to say, "oh just look the other way" or "turn away from it" but it's really not that simple.

[MollyMe]

"I have many atheists friends but they are NOTHING like you people are. God will forgive me for beating your brains out."

http://www.fstdt.com/

I'm not saying these people represent every single religious person out there, but the filth that comes out of the mouths of the different people who get posted on that site makes me think twice about sharing my beliefs with anyone I don't know well. They might be coming from all over the world but that doesn't mean I'm not going to be cautious.

What is that? The link doesn't work. But I looked at a cached page and it looks like a sampling of some crazy people. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

It's easy to say, "oh just look the other way" or "turn away from it" but it's really not that simple.
But isn't that a problem that goes beyond religion? There is numerous things that I don't agree with that I am bombarded with daily. We all face that problem. People will hold different opinions. How is it so hard to just tune it out? If I was a Christian in a Middle Eastern country wouldn't I have to look beyond all the Muslim stuff?

[MollyMe]

Also, other than putting up with annoying comments by coworkers and others, have you ever been seriously burdened? Have you been denied a job, promotion, housing, service at a store, been convicted of any crimes because of your beliefs?

[ebruening]

It's almost like you have to be a Democrat if you're a teacher. :razz:

LOL. Amy, that's not at all the case at my school. It's a mid-size school in a very religious, staunchly Republican, rural community. I understand your frustration about religion in the workplace. I'm an agnostic as well, and I never mention my religious background unless I'm specifically asked. It's even harder to explain why I'm no longer religious after years of Catholic education :neutral:

[capella]

Also, other than putting up with annoying comments by coworkers and others, have you ever been seriously burdened? Have you been denied a job, promotion, housing, service at a store, been convicted of any crimes because of your beliefs?
I see your point, but I feel like those things could be coming if intolerance is allowed to spread. Saying, Oh, it's not so bad. Nobody is killing you because you're agnostic, is in a way accepting intolerance. I'm sure people in Germany we're like, Yeah, well, they're Jewish, but whatever. It's not like we're killing them by making them wear stars. (and yeah I know that's an extreme analogy, but my point is that it starts someplace and can snowball).

With some of the super fundamentalist people around... yeah I think they do think this. I realize not all religious people are like this, but I don't have a problem with people who observe their religion without shoving it (overtly or not) into my face. I do feel that my beliefs would cause me harm with some circles of people, even in the US. I keep my thoughts to myself most of the time in RL.

I don't see it getting any better with a particular person at work. I told him I'm really not religious. He comes by and starts telling me about this great group/program at church, and oh, you and your husband might like this..... Hello, I'm not religious. I'm not going to be visiting your church or anyone else's. Take the hint. Grrrrr.....

[biodork]

What is that? The link doesn't work. But I looked at a cached page and it looks like a sampling of some crazy people. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.
Page isn't working right now.

But it's a website where people email in posts they have found on message boards on the internet. It does look like a sampling of crazy people. That's my point. I probably wouldnt' know that it's them in real life.

[biodork]

I don't see it getting any better with a particular person at work. I told him I'm really not religious. He comes by and starts telling me about this great group/program at church, and oh, you and your husband might like this..... Hello, I'm not religious. I'm not going to be visiting your church or anyone else's. Take the hint. Grrrrr.....
Like I said before, I don't think this will ever be understood by the opposite view point.

My mom actually tried to convince my bf to take me to some church that my mom had started going to (but has never gone to church for my ENTIRE LIFE). And he was like "well, I don't think that will happen, she's an atheist, she won't like it" and my mom said "Maybe if she goes she'll like it" And he continued to stand up for me, saying I am who I am and that's not going to change.

Oh and this conversation took place at my grandfather's wake. :googly:

[cheshrcarol]

If I was a Christian in a Middle Eastern country wouldn't I have to look beyond all the Muslim stuff?So this is supposed to just be a "Christian" country? Um, last time I checked we had a little thing called separation of church and state that the middle east does not have. In most countries there, Muslim law is a part of government law.

And we've rehashed this a million times, but I don't think that the problem those of us who are non-religious have is that religion is around us, but when our beliefs (or lack thereof) are used to judge us. I think we all just tend to be a little sensitive - atheists/agnostics can hear people talk about their religion and feel like they're being told they're wrong, and people who are religious hear atheists/agnostics talk about fanatics and feel like they think everyone is like that. I actually think these discussions are really good because they allow everyone to hear other points of view.

[lonestar]

Plus, the other thing that is somewhat annoying about the perviseness of Christianity in the South is that EVERYTHING closes on Sundays and church holidays! I have NEVER in my life heard of a supermarket closing on Easter Sunday because they were always open 24-7 holiday or no holiday where I am from back in the Northeast. I tried to do some shopping and errands last Easter Sunday and literally the entire town was closed...

Also regular Sundays, most everything closes...and they take that as a source of pride down here! Its kind of funny. I once asked why Chik-fil-a was closed on a Sunday and got a nasty retort about it being the Lord's day and that it was the way it should be. Fine, but how are the rest of us who are jewish, athiest, agnostic, buddhist, hindu, ect get anything done on a Sunday?

[CTGirl]

Plus, the other thing that is somewhat annoying about the perviseness of Christianity in the South is that EVERYTHING closes on Sundays and church holidays! I have NEVER in my life heard of a supermarket closing on Easter Sunday because they were always open 24-7 holiday or no holiday where I am from back in the Northeast. I tried to do some shopping and errands last Easter Sunday and literally the entire town was closed...

Also regular Sundays, most everything closes...and they take that as a source of pride down here! Its kind of funny. I once asked why Chik-fil-a was closed on a Sunday and got a nasty retort about it being the Lord's day and that it was the way it should be. Fine, but how are the rest of us who are jewish, athiest, agnostic, buddhist, hindu, ect get anything done on a Sunday?

Yeah, I dont think I could handle that kind of thing, I'm staying up here where religion is kept quiet for the most part. Its dumb enough that we cant buy alcohol on Sundays in this state, lol.

[tina1979]

I'm not arguing with that, I'm just saying that whenever you are in the minority and it's a contentious issue, you tend to feel rather attacked. And although as a Christian, I'm not in the minority in the nation, I definitely am on the boards, and I'd be lying if I said I don't feel from time to time attacked, insulted, and/or belittled for it.
I'd have to agree with you.


I also don't think that Christians even realize the amount of religious stuff that is EVERYWHERE in our culture and that for non-religious people it is a constant bombardment.

It's easy to say, "oh just look the other way" or "turn away from it" but it's really not that simple.

Ok, this may sound harsh and I am not directing it specifically at you. I'm just using your statment to make a point.

As a christian this is what I hear in the above statment.....Noone should outwardly show thier faith because it may offend someone so to keep everyone happy there should be nothing visible to the "world".

I refuse to slink around and keep my mouth shut about believing in God just becaue it might offend someone. I'm not saying that there aren't religious zealots, but there are non religious ones as well.

How is it not offensive to Christians when we hear that we are stupid for having blind faith and for believing in something that you can't prove. How is it not offensive to us that we can't say "God bless you" when someone sneezes, or that we can't say Merry Christmas?

Noone says you have to believe. When I figured out that half this board was athiest or agnostic I didn't leave and never come back. I didn't belittle anyone. Hell, I consider myself friends with some of the athiest/agnostics on this board. I don't think I have ever come across as pushing a religion in thier face. One of my best friends, a girl I have known for 11 years said the other day that she didn't even know if I believed in God or not. Its not something I make a point to talk to people about simply because of the reactions like the ones on this thread. Maybe that makes me a bad christian, because I don't mission to others. However, for everytime a Christian looks at you like you have two heads because you don't go to church, there is a non-christian doing it to me because I do. Its the same on both sides. Everyone is critisized for something that they do. It happens. There is never going to be a world of eutopia where "everybody gets along" Everyone will be different, everyone will believe differently. Everyone will do something different than someone else. Something will always be wrong in someone else's eyes. The only thing we can strive for is tolerance. But tolerance comes both ways. You have to stop being offended by every religious overture the same as Christians have to stop being offended by every non religious one.

[lonestar]

I will give you that the "stupidity" label applied to Christians is extremely unfair, but it stems from the most vocal of Christians being the most fundamental. It doesn't help your case when Kansas votes to stop teaching evolution, or Jerry Falwell blames 9/11 on gay people and liberal culture, or Pat Robertson or Jimmy Swaggart or Ralph Reed ect...Unfortunately, when I think of "Catholic" I get the image of quirky rituals, a mid-mass necco wafer and funny hats (I was raised Catholic). This is harmless, though, when I think of "Baptist" or "Pentacostal", where I get the image of scary preachers, exclusion and even hatred. This is of course wrong for to me have these prejudices, but as I said before the most vocal are the most extreme, and have created that image...(for many people, I would hazzard to guess). The thing is the Catholic Church has its problems too (scary child groping priests), but for some reason that image of the fundamental preacher is burned in my head...

[WorkInProgress]

I'm not arguing with that, I'm just saying that whenever you are in the minority and it's a contentious issue, you tend to feel rather attacked. And although as a Christian, I'm not in the minority in the nation, I definitely am on the boards, and I'd be lying if I said I don't feel from time to time attacked, insulted, and/or belittled for it.

I'd have to agree with you.

As a christian this is what I hear in the above statment.....Noone should outwardly show thier faith because it may offend someone so to keep everyone happy there should be nothing visible to the "world".

I refuse to slink around and keep my mouth shut about believing in God just becaue it might offend someone. I'm not saying that there aren't religious zealots, but there are non religious ones as well.

How is it not offensive to Christians when we hear that we are stupid for having blind faith and for believing in something that you can't prove. How is it not offensive to us that we can't say "God bless you" when someone sneezes, or that we can't say Merry Christmas?

Noone says you have to believe. When I figured out that half this board was athiest or agnostic I didn't leave and never come back. I didn't belittle anyone. Hell, I consider myself friends with some of the athiest/agnostics on this board. I don't think I have ever come across as pushing a religion in thier face. One of my best friends, a girl I have known for 11 years said the other day that she didn't even know if I believed in God or not. Its not something I make a point to talk to people about simply because of the reactions like the ones on this thread. Maybe that makes me a bad christian, because I don't mission to others. However, for everytime a Christian looks at you like you have two heads because you don't go to church, there is a non-christian doing it to me because I do. Its the same on both sides. Everyone is critisized for something that they do. It happens. There is never going to be a world of utopia where "everybody gets along" Everyone will be different, everyone will believe differently. Everyone will do something different than someone else. Something will always be wrong in someone else's eyes. The only thing we can strive for is tolerance. But tolerance comes both ways. You have to stop being offended by every religious overture the same as Christians have to stop being offended by every non religious one.

I cannot possibly agree more with everything you said.

[WorkInProgress]

I will give you that the "stupidity" label applied to Christians is extremely unfair, but it stems from the most vocal of Christians being the most fundamental. It doesn't help your case when Kansas votes to stop teaching evolution, or Jerry Falwell blames 9/11 on gay people and liberal culture, or Pat Robertson or Jimmy Swaggart or Ralph Reed ect...Unfortunately, when I think of "Catholic" I get the image of quirky rituals, a mid-mass necco wafer and funny hats (I was raised Catholic). This is harmless, though, when I think of "Baptist" or "Pentacostal", where I get the image of scary preachers, exclusion and even hatred. This is of course wrong for to me have these prejudices, but as I said before the most vocal are the most extreme, and have created that image...(for many people, I would hazzard to guess). The thing is the Catholic Church has its problems too (scary child groping priests), but for some reason that image of the fundamental preacher is burned in my head...

That's all well and good, but you must realize that LOTS of Christians are not even in the denominations you mention and that even those who are members of those denominations don't all live up to your stereotype.

And, as to anyone's "case"--it doesn't make tolerant agnostics or atheists look good when people who believe as they do rant and rave either.

No group has the market cornered on ignorance and intolerance when it comes to this topic.

[tina1979]

I will give you that the "stupidity" label applied to Christians is extremely unfair, but it stems from the most vocal of Christians being the most fundamental. It doesn't help your case when Kansas votes to stop teaching evolution, or Jerry Falwell blames 9/11 on gay people and liberal culture, or Pat Robertson or Jimmy Swaggart or Ralph Reed ect...Unfortunately, when I think of "Catholic" I get the image of quirky rituals, a mid-mass necco wafer and funny hats (I was raised Catholic). This is harmless, though, when I think of "Baptist" or "Pentacostal", where I get the image of scary preachers, exclusion and even hatred. This is of course wrong for to me have these prejudices, but as I said before the most vocal are the most extreme, and have created that image...(for many people, I would hazzard to guess). The thing is the Catholic Church has its problems too (scary child groping priests), but for some reason that image of the fundamental preacher is burned in my head...
I'll give you that, but this comes down to a kindergarten rule. If you don't want me to do it to you, then don't do it to me.

I'm not saying anything those people were said are right. I thought the statments were just as stupid as non-religious people did. But we aren't all that way. Don't judge the son by the sins of the father, or the daughter by the sin of the mother. don't judge me for something some idioit spewed on tv when he contracted a case of verbal diarrhea. I was raised baptist....southern baptist at that. Fire and brimstone. you don't see me telling you , you are gonna go to hell because you arent going to church. hell, I married a catholic. one of my best friends is pagan. he likes to have religious debates. This would definately not be a thread he should ever see. He would want to show everyone the error of thier ways.

[wordsmith]

And we've rehashed this a million times, but I don't think that the problem those of us who are non-religious have is that religion is around us, but when our beliefs (or lack thereof) are used to judge us.

Don't you think that people who are religious absolutely feel that our beliefs (which are incredibly diverse across various religious communities/bodies) are used to judge us? Those of us who are very respectful of others, mind our own business, and only talk about our faith when it comes up and not in an "I'm gonna convert you" way completely get lumped in with anybody who's ever hassled you about religion. That's not right.


I think we all just tend to be a little sensitive - atheists/agnostics can hear people talk about their religion and feel like they're being told they're wrong, and people who are religious hear atheists/agnostics talk about fanatics and feel like they think everyone is like that.

It's not just that. It's also the condescending tone that you must not be very smart if you believe in something that transcends rationality, or that you're simple minded, and just don't "get it" like they do that nothing like that is worth believing in. It goes both ways.

I actually think these discussions are really good because they allow everyone to hear other points of view.

I do, as well. But I'll absolutely lay it on the line when I feel belittled and unfairly criticized or treated rudely within this community.

[paiger81]

Plus, the other thing that is somewhat annoying about the perviseness of Christianity in the South is that EVERYTHING closes on Sundays and church holidays! I have NEVER in my life heard of a supermarket closing on Easter Sunday because they were always open 24-7 holiday or no holiday where I am from back in the Northeast. I tried to do some shopping and errands last Easter Sunday and literally the entire town was closed...

Also regular Sundays, most everything closes...and they take that as a source of pride down here! Its kind of funny. I once asked why Chik-fil-a was closed on a Sunday and got a nasty retort about it being the Lord's day and that it was the way it should be. Fine, but how are the rest of us who are jewish, athiest, agnostic, buddhist, hindu, ect get anything done on a Sunday?

Well, having lived in the "South" all of my life, I must disagree that EVERYTHING closes on Sundays & church holidays. Yeah, our malls & shopping stores have shortened hours on Sundays--usually 12-6pm, but last time I was up North, they had the same mall hours.

I do agree that it can be annoying when stores close on holidays, but on the same token, Petco-which was run by a Jewish company (until it was bought out 2 weeks ago) would NOT allow it's Christian workers to have their religious holidays off, they had to work on Christmas & Easter, etc. So if you really want to look at it, all sides can be unfair, so singling out 'Christian' companies really doesn't make sense.

[Deadend]

I can see how it happens in a newsroom (I had plenty of interesting, not offensive discussions about religion when I worked at the paper... and it was relevant to what we were doing). But when I'm putting up a bulletin board and you interrupt me to ask me if I go to church.... that's pushing beyond the boundary. There are things you don't ask your co-workers.

Ha! See, to me that is beyond absurd. Me I'd be like "is this a joke?", and probably respond with something deservedly assinine.

"Ya man church of Satan Blaharahag!!!!" *make sign of devel with left hand*.

I'm 100% in Capella's court here. Theological discussions aside I see it as a social grace, asking those kind of questions is kind of presumptious.

[Kitty]

Ok, this may sound harsh and I am not directing it specifically at you. I'm just using your statment to make a point.

As a christian this is what I hear in the above statment.....Noone should outwardly show thier faith because it may offend someone so to keep everyone happy there should be nothing visible to the "world".


Well, that's not what I was saying.

I'm just saying that since Christianity is the dominate religion in this country, people who aren't Christian have to deal with a lot of Christianity in our culture on a daily basis. I wasn't saying that everyone should just keep religion totally quiet, but just trying to point out that you may not realize just how much of a bombardment it is since it is your faith.

I think you would feel the same way if you were constantly being reminded and encountering people and messages saying God didn't exist.

[tina1979]

Well, that's not what I was saying.

I'm just saying that since Christianity is the dominate religion in this country, people who aren't Christian have to deal with a lot of Christianity in our culture on a daily basis. I wasn't saying that everyone should just keep religion totally quiet, but just trying to point out that you may not realize just how much of a bombardment it is since it is your faith.

I think you would feel the same way if you were constantly being reminded and encountering people and messages saying God didn't exist.

I know that is not what YOU were saying. Thats why I said that it wasn't directed towards you.

I do have to deal with encountering people and messages saying that God doesn't exsist and I don't know what I am doing because I believe in God. I have to deal with it when I see comments on here I have to deal with it when I go out. I have to deal with it a couple times a week when I talk to my friend. people who are non-christians are not the only ones who have to deal with that kind of stuff on a daily basis.

[wordsmith]

I think you would feel the same way if you were constantly being reminded and encountering people and messages saying God didn't exist.

But, believe it or not, this is EXACTLY how I feel about this very online community. So don't be so sure it's not a feeling that a person of faith could relate to.

[WorkInProgress]

But, believe it or not, this is EXACTLY how I feel about this very online community. So don't be so sure it's not a feeling that a person of faith could relate to.
dingdingding

[Kitty]

But, believe it or not, this is EXACTLY how I feel about this very online community. So don't be so sure it's not a feeling that a person of faith could relate to.

Ok, but you can leave this online community and not that feel that way - it's a little different when it's the entire country and you're the minority.

[tina1979]

Ok, but you can leave this online community and not that feel that way - it's a little different when it's the entire country and you're the minority.
but why should we have to leave the online community so as not to be offended? its public. we shouldn't be offended by coming here the same as you shouldn't be offended when you come here.

[Kitty]

but why should we have to leave the online community so as not to be offended? its public. we shouldn't be offended by coming here the same as you shouldn't be offended when you come here.

Nooo..that wasn't what I was saying. I'm just saying that when you leave here, and go about your life you're the majority. This is just a small community where agnostics happen to be the majority.

[wordsmith]

I think it's far more reasonable to request that people be respectful within an online community than whip out the old, "Well, if you don't like it, you can just leave" excuse, frankly. Particularly within a community that exists for support purposes.

Obviously, this community is important to me, or I wouldn't have been here with this sort of longevity or made the connections I've made.

[Kitty]

I think it's far more reasonable to request that people be respectful within an online community than whip out the old, "Well, if you don't like it, you can just leave" excuse, frankly. Particularly within a community that exists for support purposes.

Obviously, this community is important to me, or I wouldn't have been here with this sort of longevity or made the connections I've made.

Dude, that's so not what I was saying!

I was trying to say that this is just one small place where you may feel like the minority - whereas for others we feel like the minority all the time.

[tina1979]

Nooo..that wasn't what I was saying. I'm just saying that when you leave here, and go about your life you're the majority. This is just a small community where agnostics happen to be the majority.
sorry, i misunderstood you there.

Honestly though it really doesn't matter who the majority is, you can still be faced with this kind of stuff everywhere at anytime.

[lonestar]

But that's what it's like when there are "public prayers" ie. the airplane incident...it is more respectful to keep your religion to yourself than to expect every non-christian to "put up with it or leave"...same with the ten commandments (2 of which I think are wrong) on the Capitol lawn here in Austin...

[Kitty]

sorry, i misunderstood ou there.

Honestly though it really doesn't matter who the majority is, you can still be faced with this kind of stuff everywhere at anytime.

Oh, I totally agree...I think anyone regardless of faith/beliefs/etc. will come up against people who don't understand, etc.

But, when you are the minority in a situation/place/environemnt/etc. I think you will come up against more prejudice.

[WorkInProgress]

Oh, I totally agree...I think anyone regardless of faith/beliefs/etc. will come up against people who don't understand, etc.

But, when you are the minority in a situation/place/environemnt/etc. I think you will come up against more prejudice.
More, perhaps, because of the number of prejudiced people, but probably not more, in terms of violence of feeling.

[paiger81]

same with the ten commandments (2 of which I think are wrong) on the Capitol lawn here in Austin...

But as a non-believer, couldn't you just walk past them?? I don't see how they are negatively affecting you.

I mean, there is this one church in CC that gives it's members signs to post on their fences stating really conservative Christian statements. They are annoying & I don't agree with a lot of them, so when I am driving by a house that has them, I roll my eyes & move on. It's not like it's hurting me in any way.

I don't know, whether people want to admit it or not, laws were originally based on religious views, so having a memorial to that doesn't seem to be a terrible thing in my eyes.

[lonestar]

Because it is my state capital lawn too...and I don't like the message that's endorsed by the state in the following commandments:

1. Thou shall have no other Gods before me (so we can't believe in other things?)
2. No worshipping of idols (so buddhists and other religions are not viewed by the state the same way Christians are?)
4. Observe the Sabbath & Keep it Holy...what if it is just a regular day for me and I don't believe in the Sabbath...does the state give preferential treatment to those who do?

[wordsmith]

More, perhaps, because of the number of prejudiced people, but probably not more, in terms of violence of feeling.

Exactly.

I got what you were saying, Kitty, I was just pointing out that we can, and do, know what it is to feel looked down on and discriminated against for our beliefs, because the implication, as I read it earlier, was that we wouldn't understand how that feels. And we do.

[paiger81]

Because it is my state capital lawn too...

I know, but it's not as if the whole lawn is a monument to religion, a small part of it is.

[Kitty]

But as a non-believer, couldn't you just walk past them?? I don't see how they are negatively affecting you.


I do agree with that if it's just a once in awhile thing. If you're constantly coming up against viewpoints that differ from yours, it can be draining - especially when it's close to home (the workplace, your family, friends, etc.). It's not always so easy to just ignore it.

I posted about my last office which was conservative republican - there were all kinds of comments made that I didn't agree with morally. I did just ignore them and go about my business, but at times it REALLY started to drain me and bother me and I couldn't help but let it get under my skin.

[lonestar]

But by displaying that the state is sending a message that it endorses Christianity...if they want to put up a sign that says: don't murder, steal, cheat, dishonor others, ect...fine. But if they put up a sign that says honor no other God but a Christian one, I have a big problem with that.

Imagine the outrage if the State of Texas decided to put Buddha on the capital lawn.

[and1grad]

I don't know, whether people want to admit it or not, laws were originally based on religious views, so having a memorial to that doesn't seem to be a terrible thing in my eyes.
Mmmm...thats debatable. I think laws were more based on "social contract" than on religion.

[paiger81]

I do agree with that if it's just a once in awhile thing. If you're constantly coming up against viewpoints that differ from yours, it can be draining - especially when it's close to home (the workplace, your family, friends, etc.). It's not always so easy to just ignore it.

I agree with that. But with lonestars example, I'm thinking the captiol is 22 acres & has about 20 monuments, it's not like it's just the one screaming "YOU ALL MUST BE CHRISTIANS!!"

[lonestar]

exactly...some of the commandments correlate with laws.

However, commandment 1 in particular does not...at least not in the US

[lonestar]

I agree with that. But with lonestars example, I'm thinking the captiol is 22 acres & has about 20 monuments, it's not like it's just the one screaming "YOU ALL MUST BE CHRISTIANS!!"

But still its a governmnet endorsment...and like I said before, it shows preferential treatment...there would be no way in hell another religion's symbology would get placed there (just based on the political and religious climate here).

So are all others supposed to except that Texas loves Christians and everyone else can fuck or walk?

[WorkInProgress]

I agree with that. But with lonestars example, I'm thinking the captiol is 22 acres & has about 20 monuments, it's not like it's just the one screaming "YOU ALL MUST BE CHRISTIANS!!"

And, I would like to point out that it's the God of the Old Testament, so it's really not. (It might, however, be screaming, YOU MUST ALL BE JEWS or CHRISTIANS. If you take it that way.) ;)

[and1grad]

But still its a governmnet endorsment...and like I said before, it shows preferential treatment...there would be no way in hell another religion's symbology would get placed there (just based on the political and religious climate here).

So are all others supposed to except that Texas loves Christians and everyone else can fuck or walk?
You're fighting a losing battle here. Government and the Christian religion are intertwined. Its more consistent to have the Commandments there than it is inconsistent.

[Starsailor]

I agree with Kitty. I don't think she's saying anyone who's Christian can't understand. In fact, she said, "may not" in one of her earlier posts. The fact remains that non-Christians are the minority in this country, at least according to all statistics I've ever seen. If that's changed, I'd be very interested to know. Of course, it always depends on which part of this country you live in. Some places are less religious as others and less bombarded with religious elements (I live in a rather religious area. There are probably more churches than retail shops. I can't go for a drive without seeing church sign upon sign explicitly telling me I should believe in God, why I'm wrong and what will or won't happen to me if I don't find him, and generally how I should live my life) while others are more bombarded with agnostic/athiest (or possibly other non-Christian religions) viewpoints. I think we're all probably generally familiar with which parts fall into which category. It can be looked at on smaller scales, subcommunities, like this board as mentioned, in which perhaps the tables are turned. But looking back at the country as a whole, generally, because it is the majority, it seems a logical assumption that non-Christians are going to have less with which they relate and possibly feel excluded more often in society (note, that doesn't necessarily mean "feel attacked").

[paiger81]

So are all others supposed to except that Texas loves Christians and everyone else can fuck or walk?

We are gonna have to agree to disagree.

I just don't get how a person who seems to dislike so much about Texas as you do, is still living in the state.

[and1grad]

I just don't get how a person who seems to dislike so much about Texas as you do, is still living in the state.
The food!! As if there's another reason to live there!! :razz: ;)

[paiger81]

The food!! As if there's another reason to live there!! :razz: ;)

What can I say, we are one of the fatest states in the U.S. for a reason. Damn Tortillas!! :huge:

[Starsailor]

But by displaying that the state is sending a message that it endorses Christianity...if they want to put up a sign that says: don't murder, steal, cheat, dishonor others, ect...fine. But if they put up a sign that says honor no other God but a Christian one, I have a big problem with that.
I think you make a valid argument.

[lonestar]

We are gonna have to agree to disagree.

I just don't get how a person who seems to dislike so much about Texas as you do, is still living in the state.

I never said I dislike living here...the weather is awesome, I live in a cool city...I like it a lot. However, I don't understand how the state could endorse one religion over another...my argument is based on principle...as a resident I should be able to enjoy every inch of public land (ie. capital lawn) as much as any other resident...by putting up the the ten commandments, they have effectively excluded...there are people who aren't Christian in Texas too...

I love the State Capitol grounds...I spend a lot of time there, I just don't like the principle of having those commandments on public land.

The only complaint I have is the intense "religiousness" or lack of diversity of religions in TX. - granted we had blue laws like no beer before 12PM on Sunday (in New York), but if the christian-run stores were closed the jewish stores were open, ect...because there was more diversity in faiths, things ran a little smoother for people who aren't affliated. Oh, also I can't find any 24 hour chinese restaurants..you don't know how many 4:30 AM orders of shrimp with lobster sauce and white rice got me through undergrad studies back in NY.

[WorkInProgress]

Just being helpful, with absolutely no intent of snarkiness:

The word you mean exists. It's religiosity.

[paiger81]

The only complaint I have is the intense "religiousness" or lack of diversity of religions in TX. - granted we had blue laws like no beer before 12PM on Sunday (in New York), but if the christian-run stores were closed the jewish stores were open, ect...because there was more diversity in faiths, things ran a little smoother for people who aren't affliated. Oh, also I can't find any 24 hour chinese restaurants..you don't know how many 4:30 AM orders of shrimp with lobster sauce and white rice got me through undergrad studies back in NY.

I see that as a city thing, I don't see it based on religion or ethnicity.

Go to Houston, you can find 24 hour chinese restaurants & Jewish stores open.

[lonestar]

But I do love it in Austin...

I just think that displays of religion on state grounds creates a wee bit of a problem...

[and1grad]

I've always found it interesting that religious discussions always end up in a discussion about chinese food. Its very strange.

[WorkInProgress]

I've always found it interesting that religious discussions always end up in a discussion about chinese food. Its very strange.

Well, everyone works up a hunger debating.

[paiger81]

I've always found it interesting that religious discussions always end up in a discussion about chinese food. Its very strange.

Chinese food is an important discussion equalizer.

I personally was a 2 am Denny's Breakfast kind of undergrad.

[cheshrcarol]

I personally was a 2 am Denny's Breakfast kind of undergrad.Lightweight! I was more of a 6 am-er. As out all night and then go to breakfast.

[paiger81]

Lightweight! I was more of a 6 am-er. As out all night and then go to breakfast.

Oh, I'm thinking studying for exam at 2am, if we are talking Wednesday night "College Night" at the bars, that's another story :huge:

[cheshrcarol]

Oh, I'm thinking studying for exam at 2am, if we are talking Wednesday night "College Night" at the bars, that's another story :huge:Ah, see I think I only ate Denny's after lots of alchol.

[paiger81]

LOL, we ate at a Denny's when I went to visit my dad last week. I swear, it's the first time since college & I was like "WHAT THE HELL was I putting into my body in the past?!" It's such heavy food!

[tina1979]

I am doing the out all night until 6am thing now. I must be trying to relive college days I never had

[and1grad]

Whats up, Moons Over MyHammy!

[lonestar]

IHOP is better.

Also every time I drove to Ohiotucky to visit my grandpa we would go to Bob Evans - LOVE IT!

[cheshrcarol]

LOL, we ate at a Denny's when I went to visit my dad last week. I swear, it's the first time since college & I was like "WHAT THE HELL was I putting into my body in the past?!" It's such heavy food!Did you get the Moons over My Hammy? (Do they even still have that?) And being heavy, was exactly why we ate it - we needed it to soak up all the alcohol! Well, that and it was one of the only 24hr places, lol.

[and1grad]

Did you get the Moons over My Hammy? (Do they even still have that?) And being heavy, was exactly why we ate it - we needed it to soak up all the alcohol! Well, that and it was one of the only 24hr places, lol.
Just dont get the banana pancakes. It wound up being just regular pancakes with a side of some banana extract syrup. SUCT!!

[paiger81]

Just dont get the banana pancakes. It wound up being just regular pancakes with a side of some banana extract syrup. SUCT!!

Ew.

I must say IHOP does rock, they have a Harvest Grain Pancake that is delicious!!

[embrassezla]

Whats up, Moons Over MyHammy!
I used to order this anytime I went to Denny's in high school. But I just pointed to it on the menu - I refuse to say "Moons over my hammy" out loud.

[and1grad]

I used to order this anytime I went to Denny's in high school. But I just pointed to it on the menu - I refuse to say "Moons over my hammy" out loud.
Thats exactly how I feel about saying "venti frappucino."

[maca]

Paypal spam on a religious debate thread? Blasphemy! :p :huge:

[capella]

It's not just that. It's also the condescending tone that you must not be very smart if you believe in something that transcends rationality, or that you're simple minded, and just don't "get it" like they do that nothing like that is worth believing in. It goes both ways.

See though... this is the kind of thing that I was trying to make a point with earlier. If people walked around all the time going on about how crazy you are to believe that stuff and they thought it was really stupid, clearly, you would be offended.

It's the same kind of thing with this particular person at my work. It's not even so overt (well not all the time). It's like he's offended simply because I don't agree with his viewpoints and so it's now his job to convert me. That pisses me off quite frankly.

I think you were implying that I shouldn't be offended by this guy and it's a kneejerk overreaction on my part to be bothered by it. I'm not offended by another co-worker who is religious (and we disagree on a great many viewpoints, such as abortion, stem cell research, and other conservative things). With her, it's more we'll agree to disagree. She mentions what she did after church casually, not like it's a condemnation on me that I didn't go. There is a distinct difference. She has her views and I have mine and we go on our merry way. She's not bent on converting me and suggesting I go to group things at her church.

I will reiterate that I don't have a problem with people who are religious when they aren't trying to convert me or they aren't expecting me to trust them just because they're Christian. I don't like it when people proclaim they're Christians as if it's a seal of approval. I've found MANY more people who are like that than who aren't. I've not found many religious people who can rationally discuss religion without getting pissed that I don't believe the same thing as they do.

I kind of dig the idea behind religion, I even started courses to become catholic at one point. But I don't like it when people use it as a tool to judge, criticize and condemn others. Overtly or not.

I don't have a problem discussing religion when I don't get the "two-heads" look. And I don't think this is a topic that needs to come up in the workplace. It's not like this was a social event and we were chitchatting.

[wordsmith]

I'm not offended by another co-worker who is religious (and we disagree on a great many viewpoints, such as abortion, stem cell research, and other conservative things). With her, it's more we'll agree to disagree. She mentions what she did after church casually, not like it's a condemnation on me that I didn't go. There is a distinct difference. She has her views and I have mine and we go on our merry way. She's not bent on converting me and suggesting I go to group things at her church.

This, I understand, and is what I was trying to figure out...because it honestly read to me earlier like your stance was that nobody should ever mention religion around you because it causes offense to do so. I understand not wanting to be converted or proselytized to, believe me. I don't go for that, myself.

I'd also note, which you probably won't buy, but I'm speaking from a place of experience, that people inviting you to group things at their church is not necessarily an attempt to convert or "win your soul," or anything. When I worked for an urban Lutheran church, we had LOTS of neighborhood events, because part of the mission statement of the church when it we chartered it was to act as a community center/resource, where anybody of any persuasion would be welcome. We were ALWAYS open to people, of any denomination, participating in our programs. We invited people to things as community members, not as potential congregants. I held a haunted house every halloween for neighborhood kids, and it was super popular among all kids, no matter their religion or lack thereof. We also had a warming shelter in the winter, and it wasn't like you had to pledge to become a Lutheran if you were homeless and wanted to warm up, etc. Some things are just hospitality, and not an attempt to boost numbers in the pews. They're just things people feel called to do.

But I don't like it when people use it as a tool to judge, criticize and condemn others. Overtly or not.

I submit that people do this all the time, with or without religion to "back" them up.

[capella]

OK, suggesting things like that when they don't realize you're not religious I can see. But I had explicitly told him I wasn't religious and he came by later that day to tell me how my husband and I should go to this thing. If I hadn't made it clear I can see how this wouldn't have been a conversion tactic. But that was not the case.

I'm not offended by religion itself. I'm offended by people forcing it on you, even though you've made your views known.

[wordsmith]

Okay, but I don't see "Hey, my church is having this dinner/funfair/kid's program/etc. for people in the neighborhood, wanna come?" as forcing religion on anybody. That was what we did...hosted community events.

[capella]

Okay, but I don't see "Hey, my church is having this dinner/funfair/kid's program/etc. for people in the neighborhood, wanna come?" as forcing religion on anybody. That was what we did...hosted community events.
It was more you and your husband should do this... even when I said I'm not into religion. And I don't think it's a workplace thing. He was interrupting me from doing the tons of crap I don't have nearly enough time to get done. I felt like it was more than just hey, wanna come.

[snoogans460]

Boy, I've sure made quite a commotion among the spiritually dead lurking on these boards - and the funny thing is, my words are coming across with Love. The problem is, people with absolutely no faith (almost everyone that's posted) have a difficult time dealing with the truth. Let me guess, stirring your conscience a little? Well, good - since we all have one that needs to keep us in check. I'm not some self-righteous asshole and I'm not judging any of you, period.

Ya know, my fight to make a difference for the Good Lord is tough work because unbelievers are the individuals that are too self-righteous (that's not judging, it's a fact) - forever feeling that their lives are somehow their own doing which they're free to live about in whatever ways they choose... never having any reverence for their maker, but instead, showing only contempt.

All you people can simply enjoy hopping on the bandwagon of conformity and continue on your hopeless path to nowhere. You WILL realize one day, that life without God is meaningless. You won't learn it from me because I'm just a self-righteous asshole, right? That's okay, because God will ultimately show-you himself. I only pray that it's not too late for people when that fateful day occurs - why? Because it will.

Why do people have such a hard-time believing that a spiritual realm exists? After all, nobody has all the answers about the existence we're a part of now - so does it seem impossible that something else greater resides in the unknown? And no, I'm not talking about aliens and shit. Well, I could constantly ramble on and on about this subject, and obviously so can everybody else - however, I'm not gonna' bother worying anymore about what you fine folks care to believe.

I've simply said my peace, and I already know that my convictions have been completely justified through Christ. All the endless hate within your hearts is something you're free to live with. Enjoy your ignorance, but please know that I have tried making a difference - please know that. The only reason I'm sounding more bitter in this post is because I need to arrouse your lack of faith even more, since speaking civily in the first few posts were obviously being twisted into my self-righteous demise.

Take care and brush your hair. Oh yeah, I'll leave a link to my picture so everybody can see what a self-righteous cock-sucker I am. (sigh)

Here ya go... (http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/snoogans460/000_0082.jpg)

[stonemonkey]

Ya know, my fight to make a difference for the Good Lord is tough work because unbelievers are the individuals that are too self-righteous (that's not judging, it's a fact)

Oh Lord...

[capella]

Boy, I've sure made quite a commotion among the spiritually dead lurking on these boards - and the funny thing is, my words are coming across with Love. The problem is, people with absolutely no faith (almost everyone that's posted) have a difficult time dealing with the truth. Let me guess, stirring your conscience a little? Well, good - since we all have one that needs to keep us in check. I'm not some self-righteous asshole and I'm not judging any of you, period.

Ya know, my fight to make a difference for the Good Lord is tough work because unbelievers are the individuals that are too self-righteous (that's not judging, it's a fact) - forever feeling that their lives are somehow their own doing which they're free to live about in whatever ways they choose... never having any reverence for their maker, but instead, showing only contempt.

All you people can simply enjoy hopping on the bandwagon of conformity and continue on your hopeless path to nowhere. You WILL realize one day, that life without God is meaningless. You won't learn it from me because I'm just a self-righteous asshole, right? That's okay, because God will ultimately show-you himself. I only pray that it's not too late for people when that fateful day occurs - why? Because it will.

Why do people have such a hard-time believing that a spiritual realm exists? After all, nobody has all the answers about the existence we're a part of now - so does it seem impossible that something else greater resides in the unknown? And no, I'm not talking about aliens and shit. Well, I could constantly ramble on and on about this subject, and obviously so can everybody else - however, I'm not gonna' bother worying anymore about what you fine folks care to believe.

I've simply said my peace, and I already know that my convictions have been completely justified through Christ. All the endless hate within your hearts is something you're free to live with. Enjoy your ignorance, but please know that I have tried making a difference - please know that. The only reason I'm sounding more bitter in this post is because I need to arrouse your lack of faith even more, since speaking civily in the first few posts were obviously being twisted into my self-righteous demise.

Take care and brush your hair. Oh yeah, I'll leave a link to my picture so everybody can see what a self-righteous cock-sucker I am. (sigh)

Here ya go... (http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/snoogans460/000_0082.jpg)
:eek: You are seriously deluded guy. Sure, right, mmmhmmmm, you're not judgmental at all. "Enjoy your ignorance" but I'm not a self-righteous judgmental asshole. :rolleyes:

Do you think the Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, and all the other followers of other faiths in this world are wrong and will one day "see the light"? But hopefully before it's "too late".

You are exactly, completely and totally what is wrong with religion. Period.

[Winter Storm]

Boy, I've sure made quite a commotion among the spiritually dead lurking on these boards - and the funny thing is, my words are coming across with Love. The problem is, people with absolutely no faith (almost everyone that's posted) have a difficult time dealing with the truth. Let me guess, stirring your conscience a little? Well, good - since we all have one that needs to keep us in check. I'm not some self-righteous asshole and I'm not judging any of you, period.

Contradictory and judgemental. And the truth you speak of is the truth that only you know. You just cannot accept that you 'truth' may not be that and that there are other interpretations, thoughts and paths on the subject. That makes you completely close-minded.

Ya know, my fight to make a difference for the Good Lord is tough work because unbelievers are the individuals that are too self-righteous (that's not judging, it's a fact) - forever feeling that their lives are somehow their own doing which they're free to live about in whatever ways they choose... never having any reverence for their maker, but instead, showing only contempt.

Don't know who here is showing contempt. Another totally judgemental statement and another example of you trying to push your views on everyone else.

All you people can simply enjoy hopping on the bandwagon of conformity and continue on your hopeless path to nowhere. You WILL realize one day, that life without God is meaningless. You won't learn it from me because I'm just a self-righteous asshole, right? That's okay, because God will ultimately show-you himself. I only pray that it's not too late for people when that fateful day occurs - why? Because it will.

Whose conforming? Those who have chosen not to join up with your religion have only sought a different path, one less taken to be honest. I think you just can't stand for people to think and act different from you and to go a different way. No need to pray for me or anyone else. It's not needed at all.

Why do people have such a hard-time believing that a spiritual realm exists? After all, nobody has all the answers about the existence we're a part of now - so does it seem impossible that something else greater resides in the unknown? And no, I'm not talking about aliens and shit. Well, I could constantly ramble on and on about this subject, and obviously so can everybody else - however, I'm not gonna' bother worying anymore about what you fine folks care to believe.

Why do we have to believe in anything? Seriously, what is the ultimate point? Why us it so hard for you to believe that some of us are perfectly happy and satisified with life without worship of a almightly deity?

I've simply said my peace, and I already know that my convictions have been completely justified through Christ. All the endless hate within your hearts is something you're free to live with. Enjoy your ignorance, but please know that I have tried making a difference - please know that. The only reason I'm sounding more bitter in this post is because I need to arrouse your lack of faith even more, since speaking civily in the first few posts were obviously being twisted into my self-righteous demise.

Again, what hate? Who here has spewed hatred your way? We are all adults here and capable of having a religious discussion without ignorance and hatred towards each other. We've had this convo many times before. We will again. And we will do just fine without your wacked out judgements and false self-righteous truths.

So long! And good riddance! :twisted: :cool: :huge: :twisted:

[cheshrcarol]

Let me guess, stirring your conscience a little? Well, good - since we all have one that needs to keep us in check. I'm not some self-righteous asshole and I'm not judging any of you, period.Do you not see how contradictory that statment is? We should feel guilty, but you're not judging? And for the record I am an atheist and I don't feel guilty at all. You can blame it on the devil or whatever non-sense your brainwashing has led you to believe, if that will make you feel better.

Ya know, my fight to make a difference for the Good Lord is tough work because unbelievers are the individuals that are too self-righteous (that's not judging, it's a fact) - forever feeling that their lives are somehow their own doing which they're free to live about in whatever ways they choose... never having any reverence for their maker, but instead, showing only contempt.

All you people can simply enjoy hopping on the bandwagon of conformity and continue on your hopeless path to nowhere. You WILL realize one day, that life without God is meaningless.I'm sorry, who's self-righteous and on the "bandwagon of conformity"? My life IS my own and I am free to live whoever I choose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the bible says something about God's gift to man being free will. And my life is far from meaningless. I have family and friends that I love that make life worth living.

I've simply said my peace, and I already know that my convictions have been completely justified through Christ. All the endless hate within your hearts is something you're free to live with. Enjoy your ignorance, but please know that I have tried making a difference - please know that. The only reason I'm sounding more bitter in this post is because I need to arrouse your lack of faith even more, since speaking civily in the first few posts were obviously being twisted into my self-righteous demise.This is the real reason I ignored my better judgement that said to just ignore your self-righteous ramblings. I'm sure you'll shake your head and tell yourself how deluded I am, but I want you to pay attention -- Being atheist (or any religion that doesn't not accept Christ) does not mean you are filled with hate. And understanding anything less is ignorance on your part. I love other cultures and religions and have enormous respect for everyone who has true faith and lives their lives according to the way their faiths meant for them to.

And if one day I find out I was wrong and that God exists, I have to hope that I will be judged on the content of my soul, not the content of my beliefs. And I also have to hope that people like you will find out how much your actions go against everything Jesus taught.

I'll leave a link to my picture so everybody can see what a self-righteous cock-sucker I am. (sigh)
Well, at least you got one thing right.

[snoogans460]

Do you not see how contradictory that statment is? We should feel guilty, but you're not judging? And for the record I am an atheist and I don't feel guilty at all. You can blame it on the devil or whatever non-sense your brainwashing has led you to believe, if that will make you feel better.

I'm sorry, who's self-righteous and on the "bandwagon of conformity"? My life IS my own and I am free to live whoever I choose. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the bible says something about God's gift to man being free will. And my life is far from meaningless. I have family and friends that I love that make life worth living.

This is the real reason I ignored my better judgement that said to just ignore your self-righteous ramblings. I'm sure you'll shake your head and tell yourself how deluded I am, but I want you to pay attention -- Being atheist (or any religion that doesn't not accept Christ) does not mean you are filled with hate. And understanding anything less is ignorance on your part. I love other cultures and religions and have enormous respect for everyone who has true faith and lives their lives according to the way their faiths meant for them to.

And if one day I find out I was wrong and that God exists, I have to hope that I will be judged on the content of my soul, not the content of my beliefs. And I also have to hope that people like you will find out how much your actions go against everything Jesus taught.

Well, at least you got one thing right.


Hmm? You're somehow going to be judged on the content of your soul instead of your beliefs? Now that's an insightful and profound statement if I ever heard one. Your soul is very much a part of your beliefs and without Christ, hope is completely lost and you'll feel eternal separation from God, period.

I obviously speak with a genuine passion that goes unheard and my teachings aren't going against anything Jesus taught - you've clearly never read a Bible before. Now, in the Gospels Jesus never once attacked someone because of the Sin they confessed - however, he was more than willing to attack the self-righteous individuals (Pharisees) whom felt they were too proud to own up to their mistakes.

Since most people on these boards claim to be Athiest, then its doubtful they feel any sorrow or guilt within their hearts because of their actions. By the way, the Hate within people's hearts which I'm talking about is not a Hate towards people in general, but towards God. It's truly sad that so many have the knowledge of God in their Minds, but refuse to Acknowledge God within their hearts. Those twelve inches between the heart and mind are what keep so many people from entering Heaven.

Now, I'm not being judgmental in anything I've said, despite your constant need to smear false lies against the one person in this thread who has the cahones to speak-up on God's behalf. I'm not forcing anybody to believe in what I believe... although, I do encourage you to repent of your sins and get your heart right with Christ - simple as that (well, not so simple for arrogant folks apparently).

Everybody needs to accept the fact that we've all (yes me too, many times over) fallen short of the Glory and are in need of genuine repentance in our lives. God's merciful and always will be, that's the beautiful thing that people need to realize. Yes, it's difficult for us as people to confess our sins because we need to take God's side against ourselves.

Society is so jacked-up. I mean, the general public can easily tolerate sin, but can never tolerate the guilt that sin produces. You people can ridicule me all you want, but just know this... I consider it an honor to suffer disgrace for Christ's name.

Jesus even said in Matthew 10:22 and Mark 13:13 - "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Kinda' sounds like my situation on these boards.

[cheshrcarol]

without Christ, hope is completely lost and you'll feel eternal separation from God, period.Get out of your self-righteous, narrow-minded, blind hole. I think there are a few million Jews who might want to argue that point with you.

you've clearly never read a Bible before. Guess again. I even went to a Catholic school and took several collegiate level theology courses.

Jesus even said in Matthew 10:22 and Mark 13:13 - "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Kinda' sounds like my situation on these boards.Maybe instead of insulting people here and trying to evangelize, you'd like to stand firm somewhere else. I guarantee you will not be welcome here.

[Sagiquarius]

This may be the single most entertaining discussion ever on these boards. What happened to our friend, the Rev. Billy Graham? Hasn't shown up again I see.

He reminds me of my grandmother and that whole "fire and brimstone" sect. Boy I have issues with these religious zealots. Please somebody start another thread solely dedicated to this

[Starsailor]

May I suggest that those of us who disagree with snoogan ignore his sermons? He seems to enjoy the negative responses and he can use them to make himself out to be a martyr. The comments also probably work for him to confirm his beliefs about non-believers being lost-souls with no conscience who are going to burn in hell if they don't quickly get the fear of God into them. Don't even acknowledge his comments and allow him to indulge further.

[MollyMe]

So this is supposed to just be a "Christian" country? Um, last time I checked we had a little thing called separation of church and state that the middle east does not have. In most countries there, Muslim law is a part of government law.


According to the CIA: Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)
I think 78% Christian would make it a 'Christian' country. I don't know why the government was brought into it. When you have a country where the majority is a certain religion, certain religious things will be encountered and you just deal with it.
Not all Muslim countries have islamic law in their laws and constitutions. Turkey is mostly Muslim but have secular laws and constitution.

[wordsmith]

I'd like to thank snoogans for providing a maginificent display of fuel to fire the perspectives of those who already want to think that anybody with a Christian viewpoint acts as he does. :googly:

I stand by my assertions that that sort of behavior is NOT the norm, although I'm sure plenty will take it as "See how Christians are???" Not quite.

[Deadend]

Ya but by that logic it's a white country too. Or a right-handed country. Or a straight country.

Majority rules need to be used to make *some* decisions. That has absolutely nothing to do with definitions of identity though.

[and1grad]

But isnt Christianity part of this country's identity? I mean..there's NEVER been separation of church and State, why would we think that would ever change?

[MollyMe]

Plus, the other thing that is somewhat annoying about the perviseness of Christianity in the South is that EVERYTHING closes on Sundays and church holidays! I have NEVER in my life heard of a supermarket closing on Easter Sunday because they were always open 24-7 holiday or no holiday where I am from back in the Northeast. I tried to do some shopping and errands last Easter Sunday and literally the entire town was closed...
People celebrate Easter with their families and they don't want to work. I had to work part of Thanksgiving because we were open in the morning. I didn't want to be there.
Other than Chick-fil-a and Hobby Lobby, I have never seen any other non-family-owned business not open on Sunday. I've been in Texas too and I didn't see any major shutting down on Sundays. Easter, Christmas, yes because of low sales and employees not wanting to work because they want to be with their families.

[MollyMe]

deadend...Not understanding where you are going with that.

I'm not offended by religion itself. I'm offended by people forcing it on you, even though you've made your views known.
I agree. I don't think religion needs to be private but people shouldn't try to convert you, especially at work.

[wordsmith]

But talking about their religion is not necessarily attempting to convert you.

[MollyMe]

But talking about their religion is not necessarily attempting to convert you.
It isn't, but I think it usually is pretty clear when people are trying to convert you.

[MollyMe]

But isnt Christianity part of this country's identity? I mean..there's NEVER been separation of church and State, why would we think that would ever change?

I think it depends on how strictly you view seperation of church and state.

[crystal_dance]

I was having lunch in a predominantly Indian area yesterday, when this old lady came and stood outside on the street with this placard that read "ONLY CATHOLICS CAN GO TO HEAVEN". I wish my damn phone was a camera phone :frustrate

Sucks to be a hindu or muslim or bhuddist in this country.

[wordsmith]

Hah! But plenty of Christians aren't Catholic, either! If I believed in hell, guess I'd be screwed, too! :googly:

[crystal_dance]

Point I'm trying to make is that every denomination puts pressure on us continuously, with these taunts about how we're all going to burn in hell yet it's still allowed by the government.

I'm not so sure if say a bunch of atheists stood on street corners with a placard saying " PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD ARE STUPID" would be tollerated by the general public. If anything, the police would probably ask the person to go away because of the public disturbance he/she may cause.

[Starsailor]

MollyMe, what I think Deadend was getting at by mentioning that it's a "white country too ... or a straight country" is that while that might be true, people can't always easily, or shouldn't necessarily have to, "just deal" with certain things or encounters because they are the norm. Those things or encounters might be expected but aren't always excusable, and I'd assume that Deadend (correct me if I'm wrong!) is saying they shouldn't be accepted or justified just because it might be the long set state of society. Whether you agree with that or not I guess depends on whether you put race and sexual identity issues on the same level as religious issues of this sort.

Christianity definitely is a part of this country's identity I'd say, and we're far from practicing a separation of church and state in many ways, but aren't we also technically supposed to have that separation? Wasn't that part of this country's founding principles?

"I'm not so sure if say a bunch of atheists stood on street corners with a placard saying " PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD ARE STUPID" would be tollerated by the general public. If anything, the police would probably ask the person to go away because of the public disturbance he/she may cause."
I tend to agree there. Generally, I do think it's more acceptable in our country to criticize those who don't believe than those who do (and right or wrong, that would kind of make sense, considering the above). If someone makes a statement against religion, or just shows it in a way that doesn't flow with someone else's, there seems to usually be an uproar, sometimes bigger than others. When it's the reverse, hardly a peep. Now, that could be because large groups like the Catholic League or people in position of Archdiocese (don't mean to call out Catholics, just the only specifics I could think of at the moment) have an easier time of making noise and getting the media to cover it. But I do wonder if non-Christians or non-believers all together try to create a hoopla about something religious (or Christian, specifically), if it would even be known in a wider circle.

[lonestar]

The funny thing too me is that athiests require just as much of a faith leap as believers - in essence, you have to rely on your faith that God doesn't exist just as a believer relies on his/her faith that God does exist. That's why I see athiests as just another form of religion. As a natural skeptic and cynic, I will always place a premium on proof. That is why I claim myself as an ignostic humanist - the existance of God has no testable or verifiable consequences and is completely separated from scrutinity of the scientific method of inquiry. As such, why deal with the existance of God (as long is it is not provable) and why not concentrate on what is good for man (the humanist part).

[cheshrcarol]

The funny thing too me is that athiests require just as much of a faith leap as believers - in essence, you have to rely on your faith that God doesn't exist just as a believer relies on his/her faith that God does exist. That's why I see athiests as just another form of religion. I think it depends on the atheist. Personally, I just can't believe in God but I am not 100% positive that I'm right. I definitely concede that there could be a higher power.

Now as for Jesus, I will never follow any form of Christianity because I will just never believe he was the son of God or rose 3 days after dying. I even had a class in college that analyzed the different gospel stories and the inconsistencies which ended up reinforcing my non-beliefs. But I think that if in this modern world you have the faith to believe in Jesus the way the bible teaches, then that's admirable.

[and1grad]

I think it depends on the atheist. Personally, I just can't believe in God but I am not 100% positive that I'm right. I definitely concede that there could be a higher power.
Isnt that more along the lines of agnosticism? I'm agnostic. I just dont know. I do know that I DONT like religion.
Wasn't that part of this country's founding principles?
I think its more lip service than anything. Plus, I think its supposed to more be along the lines of not allowing religious decree to become, or influence, actual law.

[cheshrcarol]

Isnt that more along the lines of agnosticism? I'm agnostic. I just dont know. I do know that I DONT like religion.
According to dictionary.com,
Atheist = One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods
Agnostic = A)One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. B)One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

I guess I'm both atheist AND agnostic, because I disbelieve in the existence of God, but I also don't think it's possible to know whether there is a God.

[biodork]

I guess I'm both atheist AND agnostic, because I disbelieve in the existence of God, but I also don't think it's possible to know whether there is a God.
So essentially, agnostic atheist :)

[cheshrcarol]

So essentially, agnostic atheist :)Exactly. I may need to start a whole new movement. ;)

[and1grad]

Exactly. I may need to start a whole new movement. ;)
Ya but I not only cant be sure I should follow you, but I'd be sure you didnt know either. :)

[lonestar]

Essentially, an Agnostic cannot confirm or deny the existance of God. An Ignostic cannot confirm or deny the existance of God and doesn't care to...it is a meaningless pursuit for the Ignostic because it is a dilemma which cannot be solved. The line of separation is very thin.

[cheshrcarol]

I don't think there's really a distinction there. Your assumption is that the Agnostic DOES care, which I don't think is a part of the definition.

Ya but I not only cant be sure I should follow you, but I'd be sure you didnt know either. No, I'm sure - you can follow me. Just be sure to keep the appropriate distance.

[and1grad]

No, I'm sure - you can follow me. Just be sure to keep the appropriate distance.
HA! You saying I have "busy hands?"

But you dont even know where you're going.

[vivo]

Wonder how good the study is.
------------------------------------
UMNnews Home : News Releases

Atheists identified as America’s most distrusted minority, according to new U of M study
What: U of M study reveals America’s distrust of atheism
Who: Penny Edgell, associate professor of sociology
Contact: Nina Shepherd, sociology media relations, (612) 599-1148
Mark Cassutt University News Service, (612) 624-8038

MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (3/28/2006) -- American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Edgell also argues that today’s atheists play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past—they offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says Edgell. Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”

The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts.

The study is co-authored by assistant professor Joseph Gerteis and associate professor Doug Hartmann. It’s the first in a series of national studies conducted the American Mosaic Project, a three-year project funded by the Minneapolis-based David Edelstein Family Foundation that looks at race, religion and cultural diversity in the contemporary United States. The study will appear in the April issue of the American Sociological Review.

Permalink

[vivo]

...above post...

oops, hope this wawsn't already referenced.

[Winter Storm]

Regarding the above post by vivo, I was just watching Morgan Spurlock's 30 Days last night and they showed the episode where the atheist women goes to stay with the Christian family and they also stated that atheist are least trusted in this society behind terrorists and homosexuals.

That was a bit disheartening. :sad:

[biodork]

Regarding the above post by vivo, I was just watching Morgan Spurlock's 30 Days last night and they showed the episode where the atheist women goes to stay with the Christian family and they also stated that atheist are least trusted in this society behind terrorists and homosexuals.

That was a bit disheartening. :sad:
Yeah I know, I didn't even want to watch the show, because I felt like I knew how it was going to be.

:sad:

[wordsmith]

I read yesterday that only 18% of people in the 18-30 age bracket consider themselves religious and/or attend church more than twice a year. It's actually higher than I thought, but still supports my feeling that although practicing a religion may be something the majority does in this country, it's something that the minority does in my age-group demographic.

[Winter Storm]

I read yesterday that only 18% of people in the 18-30 age bracket consider themselves religious and/or attend church more than twice a year. It's actually higher than I thought, but still supports my feeling that although practicing a religion may be something the majority does in this country, it's something that the minority does in my age-group demographic.

Yeah, I've noticed this too. I know very, very few people within our age group that considers themselves religious or belong to or attend a church.

[paiger81]

Yeah, I've noticed this too. I know very, very few people within our age group that considers themselves religious or belong to or attend a church.

I think this is because some of us tend to turn away from religion, but still consider ourselves spiritual.

[lonestar]

Some quotes from Martin Luther:

"Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding."

"Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has."

See, I am a big fan of reason...so I know Mr. Luther and I would never see eye-to-eye on the topic of religion (of course, he is long dead so I won't have that opportunity). I also think this is the reason for the decline in our age group...more education, more reliance on reason.

[wordsmith]

That's why I really can't deal with being bashed for my beliefs and/or being told by atheists/agnostics, "Suck it up, YOU'RE in the majority...you don't know what it is to be in the minority." As somebody who is cool with religion, I am DEFINITELY in the minority among peers of my age group. Do I care if, across the country as a whole, there are lots more people who share my view? Not hardly, when in day to day interaction with about 80% of people in my demographic, if I say I'm religious, I get the nervous, "Oh, you're one of THEM" looks and am thought ill of.

[wordsmith]

Some quotes from Martin Luther:

"Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding."

"Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has."

See, I am a big fan of reason...so I know Mr. Luther and I would never see eye-to-eye on the topic of religion (of course, he is long dead so I won't have that opportunity).

And I'm a big fan of faith, which flies in the face of reason...but so does a lot about the world and life.

[paiger81]

That's why I really can't deal with being bashed for my beliefs and/or being told by atheists/agnostics, "Suck it up, YOU'RE in the majority...you don't know what it is to be in the minority." As somebody who is cool with religion, I am DEFINITELY in the minority among peers of my age group. Do I care if, across the country as a whole, there are lots more people who share my view? Not hardly, when in day to day interaction with about 80% of people in my demographic, if I say I'm religious, I get the nervous, "Oh, you're one of THEM" looks and am thought ill of.

Yep!

extralettersinsertedhere

[biodork]

That's why I really can't deal with being bashed for my beliefs and/or being told by atheists/agnostics, "Suck it up, YOU'RE in the majority...you don't know what it is to be in the minority." As somebody who is cool with religion, I am DEFINITELY in the minority among peers of my age group. Do I care if, across the country as a whole, there are lots more people who share my view? Not hardly, when in day to day interaction with about 80% of people in my demographic, if I say I'm religious, I get the nervous, "Oh, you're one of THEM" looks and am thought ill of.
Yeah but some people on this thread have told atheists and agnostics to "suck it up", that it shouldn't be a big deal to have to go around every day and see constant reminders of something we don't believe in.

So apparently it's not ok for us to feel constantly like we aren't welcome in this country because of our own beliefs? Apparently the article saying we are the least trusted people isn't supposed to make me feel like crap? Maybe the younger generation doesn't go to church as much but I really don't believe that like 80% of us are atheist/agnostics. I have very few friends who are like me.

[Winter Storm]

Ok, I can see where this is going and lemme just play advocate and say maybe none of us should be telling the other to 'suck it up'. We all need to be tolerant of each other.

[lonestar]

Yeah but some people on this thread have told atheists and agnostics to "suck it up", that it shouldn't be a big deal to have to go around every day and see constant reminders of something we don't believe in.

So apparently it's not ok for us to feel constantly like we aren't welcome in this country because of our own beliefs? Apparently the article saying we are the least trusted people isn't supposed to make me feel like crap?

This is what I don't like either: the inconsistency...

if we are in the minority, we are told to ignore it or deal with it.

if we are in the majority (among our age group, perhaps), we are told that we are being oppresive.

And I don't mean by people on the boards...just in general.

[wordsmith]

Ok, I can see where this is going and lemme just play advocate and say maybe none of us should be telling the other to 'suck it up'. We all need to be tolerant of each other.

Thank you. As somebody who has NEVER ONCE been intolerant of atheists or agnostics' right to believe or disbelieve whatever they want, and who has certainly been on the receiving end of intolerance for what I believe, thank you.

[cheshrcarol]

Yeah, I've noticed this too. I know very, very few people within our age group that considers themselves religious or belong to or attend a church.I'm sure this is attributed to the fact that I went to a Catholic Univeristy, but most of my friends are fairly religious. But even my best friend, who I didn't go to college with is a relatively regular church-goer. Both my friend who just got married and her fiance insisted on a Catholic mass at their wedding. And my friend with lymphoma said it made her feel so much better to know how many people were praying for her. It amazes me that in a situation like that, someone can have renewed faith in God instead of questioning it.

When I was in college a huge amount of people went to Sunday night mass. I'm not religious, but occasionally I'd go, especially the first week back, to participate with my friends. The biggest problem my religious friends have now, I think, is finding a church to belong to that they feel a connection with like they did in college.

[wordsmith]

I'm sure this is attributed to the fact that I went to a Catholic Univeristy, but most of my friends are fairly religious. But even my best friend, who I didn't go to college with is a relatively regular church-goer. Both my friend who just got married and her fiance insisted on a Catholic mass at their wedding. And my friend with lymphoma said it made her feel so much better to know how many people were praying for her. It amazes me that in a situation like that, someone can have renewed faith in God instead of questioning it.

When I was in college a huge amount of people went to Sunday night mass. I'm not religious, but occasionally I'd go, especially the first week back, to participate with my friends. The biggest problem my religious friends have now, I think, is finding a church to belong to that they feel a connection with like they did in college.

I agree. But I went to a Lutheran liberal arts college. There were TONS more young people of a spiritual bent around me as a result, but obviously that's only because the environment was specifically structured around that as a church-affiliated institution. Lots of young people were affiliated with a religion of some sort there. In the world outside of that, that's not the case, however. Nobody I grew up with is a churchgoer (and I'm from a pretty conservative area, even).

[and1grad]

Its USUALLY the religious telling the non-religious to "suck it up." I also have an EXTREMELY hard time believing that 18% stat. Just doesnt make any sense.

[Winter Storm]

Thank you. As somebody who has NEVER ONCE been intolerant of atheists or agnostics' right to believe or disbelieve whatever they want, and who has certainly been on the receiving end of intolerance for what I believe, thank you.

As an agnostic on this board, who has once made nasty comments in response to believers and have been previously offensive, I wanted to come out and say that and take a better stance on us all being tolerant. It is not my intention to offend anyone, and that is why I stopped.

If I expect to be tolerated and respected, then I have to do the same.

[wordsmith]

Having worked for a metropolitan synod that is very conscious of their demographics, I would have actually thought that the percentage of twentysomething churchgoers would be WAY lower. I was shocked it was that HIGH.

I can't think of a single twentysomething person other than myself in my home congregation who attends even semi-regularly, and in the church that I worked for, there were three other members in their twenties at the time I worked there. You can say these are only two examples, but the numbers as a whole say the same thing. Churchgoing is DEFINITELY only the norm for the elderly and young couples with families. 20-somethings make up the tiniest percentage of church attendees by far.

[biodork]

As an agnostic on this board, who has once made nasty comments in response to believers and have been previously offensive, I wanted to come out and say that and take a better stance on us all being tolerant. It is not my intention to offend anyone, and that is why I stopped.

If I expect to be tolerated and respected, then I have to do the same.
The only intolerance I have is for those who seem to think I'm an immoral person just because I don't believe in a higher power. I don't think I've ever once told anyone on this board they were stupid because they are religious.

[wordsmith]

As an agnostic on this board, who has once made nasty comments in response to believers and have been previously offensive, I wanted to come out and say that and take a better stance on us all being tolerant. It is not my intention to offend anyone, and that is why I stopped.

If I expect to be tolerated and respected, then I have to do the same.

I can't even begin to tell you how much I appreciate your having posted that. I would never presume to criticize what you do or don't believe, and I appreciate having the same courtesy offered.

[and1grad]

You dont need to go to church to be religious. Thats similar to saying that the only people who are sick are the ones in the hospital. No I'm not equating being religious to being sick, altho that would be funny (to me).

[cheshrcarol]

I agree. But I went to a Lutheran liberal arts college. There were TONS more young people of a spiritual bent around me as a result, but obviously that's only because the environment was specifically structured around that as a church-affiliated institution. Lots of young people were affiliated with a religion of some sort there. In the world outside of that, that's not the case, however. Nobody I grew up with is a churchgoer (and I'm from a pretty conservative area, even).Oh, I agree that it's not that common for our age group, in general, to be religious. I was just commenting because I realize it is kind of an anomaly. This is actually a pretty Catholic-intensive area (as is a lot of upstate NY in general) and I do know several younger people from around here who are church-goers.

[SmilesSoSweet]

Yeah, I've noticed this too. I know very, very few people within our age group that considers themselves religious or belong to or attend a church.

I do attend religious services and belong to a church. And I also think I'm one of the few around my age that do.

I attended public schools all my life, but I also attended CCD classes and received my sacraments (baptism, communion, confirmation) when I was supposed to growing up. My parents never enforced the Catholic church on us. We used to attend mass as a family when I was really little (I remember playing in the pews as a kid). But as we got older, we didn't attend church as much. It really wasn't until high school and then in college that I decided that I wanted to go to church because it was what I wanted to do.

And I've said it on many other posts that I do not agree with all of the teachings of The Catholic Church, but I still consider myself Catholic.

I also know a lot of people that attend mass every Sunday but as soon as they walk out of church they're back to their "normal" hypocritical ways. That's what I don't get. But whatever. I'll just go to church because I want to.

I also respect those that do or don't practice any religion. I'm not one that will say to suck it up or to force my views on others either.

[Winter Storm]

I can't even begin to tell you how much I appreciate your having posted that. I would never presume to criticize what you do or don't believe, and I appreciate having the same courtesy offered.

Personal growth is a beautiful thing. :)

[wordsmith]

You dont need to go to church to be religious. Thats similar to saying that the only people who are sick are the ones in the hospital. No I'm not equating being religious to being sick, altho that would be funny (to me).

But I'm talking specifically about churchgoing. And don't even get me started on the preconceived notions people have of you if your employment is with a church. When I worked for a church, you can't believe the number of eyebrows that raised socially. I can't tell you the number of times that I'd be out, talking to guys, and when asked (always when asked, I never brought it up otherwise), I'd respond, "Well, actually, I work for a church," and it garnerered the following responses: "So...like...are you a nun or something?" (Yes, I'm a nun, that's why I'm playing pool in a bar :rolleyes: ) "Wow, I've never met anybody in a cult." "Oh....Hey, gotta run...nice meeting you *poof*."

[biodork]

You dont need to go to church to be religious. Thats similar to saying that the only people who are sick are the ones in the hospital. No I'm not equating being religious to being sick, altho that would be funny (to me).
This is what I'm not understanding. There are these statistics being thrown around about people our age not going to church, but I think the same thing as you, you don't need to go to church to be religious. How is not going to church being turned into not being religious?

I know my brother considers himself religious yet doesn't go to church. Mostly because my mom tries to push it on him and she uses it as away to make sure people know she's a "good person." But that's just how my mom is. He's said it himself though, that he doesn't need to go to church to believe in something.

[wordsmith]

I also respect those that do or don't practice any religion. I'm not one that will say to suck it up or to force my views on others either.

You n' me, both.

[and1grad]

But I'm talking specifically about churchgoing. And don't even get me started on the preconceived notions people have of you if your employment is with a church. When I worked for a church, you can't believe the number of eyebrows that raised socially. I can't tell you the number of times that I'd be out, talking to guys, and when asked (always when asked, I never brought it up otherwise), I'd respond, "Well, actually, I work for a church," and it garnerered the following responses: "So...like...are you a nun or something?" (Yes, I'm a nun, that's why I'm playing pool in a bar :rolleyes: ) "Wow, I've never met anybody in a cult." "Oh....Hey, gotta run...nice meeting you *poof*."
But there are stereotypes for ANYWHERE you work. Those just happen to be the ones for working in a church.

[wordsmith]

This is what I'm not understanding. There are these statistics being thrown around about people our age not going to church, but I think the same thing as you, you don't need to go to church to be religious. How is not going to church being turned into not being religious?

I know my brother considers himself religious yet doesn't go to church. Mostly because my mom tries to push it on him and she uses it as away to make sure people know she's a "good person." But that's just how my mom is. He's said it himself though, that he doesn't need to go to church to believe in something.

To be fair, the stat that I posted read something along the lines of "people who do not attend church and/or do not consider themselves to be religious."

[and1grad]

You n' me, both.
Actually, YOU are. If I'm not mistaken, you were one of the ones saying that lonestar should "suck it up" when he was force-fed a sermon on that plane. (Snakes on a plane!) :evil: :razz:

[wordsmith]

But there are stereotypes for ANYWHERE you work. Those just happen to be the ones for working in a church.

This is true. But I think the reaction is far more visceral because it involves religion. You've probably never had anybody think you were in a cult because you work in air quality.

[wordsmith]

Actually, YOU are. If I'm not mistaken, you were one of the ones saying that lonestar should "suck it up" when he was force-fed a sermon on that plane. (Snakes on a plane!) :evil: :razz:

I knew you were gonna post that, and you're taking it out of context, because in that instance, my advice was "suck it up, we all are forced to hear things we don't agree with." Not "suck it up and join my big Christian party." :googly:

And it was the Lords Prayer, not a sermon. :huge:

[and1grad]

Mmmm Hmmm. :neutral:

[tina1979]

As an agnostic on this board, who has once made nasty comments in response to believers and have been previously offensive, I wanted to come out and say that and take a better stance on us all being tolerant. It is not my intention to offend anyone, and that is why I stopped.

If I expect to be tolerated and respected, then I have to do the same.
Thanks Winter...

The whole tolerance thing is what I have been trying to get across, everytime I post. Most of you guys are more eloquent with it. So if I have offended anyone, I apologize as well.

[lonestar]

I knew you were gonna post that, and you're taking it out of context, because in that instance, my advice was "suck it up, we all are forced to hear things we don't agree with." Not "suck it up and join my big Christian party." :googly:

And it was the Lords Prayer, not a sermon. :huge:

potayto, potahto.

[wordsmith]

Lest I be cast as the bad, bad, horribly judgmental person that I'm evidently taken to be, let me formally post to lonestar and any other atheists or agnostics, that I do not have any problem with your personal belief system choices, and if it's felt to you as if I have attacked you or belittled you for not participating in organized religion in any way, I do apologize, because I haven't ever intended to do such a thing. Seriously. I'm not offended by atheists and agnostics being atheist and/or agnostic. I'm only offended by being belittled myself for what I believe.

[lighthouse4life]

Two cublicles over in our cube farm there is a woman who listens to the radio preachers and gospel music...every once in a while she shouts out a holla lewya!

lol - that would just make me laugh out loud.

[vivo]

Regarding the above post by vivo, I was just watching Morgan Spurlock's 30 Days last night and they showed the episode where the atheist women goes to stay with the Christian family and they also stated that atheist are least trusted in this society behind terrorists and homosexuals.

That was a bit disheartening. :sad:

yeah i saw it to which i guess prompted me to post the study. i waas surprised with the family. i expected some your an atheist or not christian so you will go to hell types. the family seemed pretty decent, the wife was very cool.

[J-girl]

oh my god that article is soo retarded for so many different reasons. I can't even fathom something like that getting approved for a study.
But I agree with WS- religion works for some of us so we embrace it, if it doesnt work for you dont knock it. And vice versa- no one really cares about your God but you so keep it to your self.

[bluup10]

I think everyone knows my feelings on organized religion...thing is if there is a heaven I am so fucked because I sold my soul long ago.

Talking about me again??! ;):