Dean's Confederate Flag Apology

[RedHead1420]

Apparently Howard Dean apologized today for making the comment about wanting to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks. I think this was ridiculous. To me anyway, it was pretty obvious that he didn't mean that comment in a racially negative way, but instead was trying to each out to all Americans, even those who might feel the need to portray such a symbol, and if you live anywhere near the South you know that there are those people here. I'm not even going to get into whether or not people should portray that flag, however folks, this is America, which means that you get to speak your mind under the law of free speech, but so does everyone else, even if you don't agree with it.

My question is, do you guys think that Dear should have apologized, or should have stood by what he said?

[paperjam1015]

The apology didn't sway my feelings for him either way. I think he's about as articulate as George W. and I know I won't be voting for him. I think if he really felt he was wrong he would have done it earlier and not after he was criticized by the media and public for for two days. He stated he didn't apologize on Wednesday because he is basically stubborn and didn't want to be forced to back down though he knew he was wrong(WHo does that sound like - Uh hum...the driving force on the war on Iraq)

I don't think that his intentions were racist, but the comment was particulary insensitive. First, he stereotyped every "poor" white guy in the south as driving a big truck with a conf. flag, and then he goes further to classify them as being too stupid to choose someone who represents their beliefs to vote for. Well if the choice is a guy who insults them or a republican that kisses butt...

Then he insults us all by stating that he thinks we should have a dialoque on the races, as was discussed by Bill Clinton. Yeah, b/c that was his intention. He certainly got some dialogue started...
about what a fool he is...MAybe his political strategist should have informed him that if you want people to vote for you, you shouldn't insult them. Who was his strategist anyway? Eminem?

[cheetah]

I agree it was ridiculous. It's like any sentence including the words Confederate Flag (and not including the word "bad") makes you automatically divisive and racist. The point of his statement was that people from all walks of life, even people that normally do not identify with Democrats, may find something to like in Howard Dean.

Here are his remarks regarding the controversy (http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10337).

I think it's pretty good, and not overly apologetic. A little bit of standing his ground, even though obviously he had to say something since nothing could be done to get anyone to see reason. Best move past it as soon as possible.

[cheetah]

Originally posted by paperjam1015
The apology didn't sway my feelings for him either way. I think he's about as articulate as George W. and I know I won't be voting for him. I think if he really felt he was wrong he would have done it earlier and not after he was criticized by the media and public for for two days. He stated he didn't apologize on Wednesday because he is basically stubborn and didn't want to be forced to back down though he knew he was wrong(WHo does that sound like - Uh hum...the driving force on the war on Iraq) I disagree. He wasn't really apologizing for the statement (though he did say it was clumsy), but that it hurt people. I think he waited because at first, he got a standing ovation about it, and they were really thinking it was not going to blow up the way it did.
Originally posted by paperjam1015

I don't think that his intentions were racist, but the comment was particulary insensitive. First, he stereotyped every "poor" white guy in the south as driving a big truck with a conf. flag, and then he goes further to classify them as being too stupid to choose someone who represents their beliefs to vote for. Well if the choice is a guy who insults them or a republican that kisses butt...Well, assuming that people that drive trucks with confederate flags are all poor white guys is just that: an assumption. Dean certainly didn't say that in that statement. And I don't believe he was trying to get them not to choose someone who represents their beliefs (because they are too stupid) but that no matter your beliefs on social issues, there are economic reasons for all classes and types of people to take a look at Dean, and he isn't interested in making those other issus divisive.

[dakotagopher]

This whole "issue" is a perfect example of what is wrong w/our policitcal system.

Why is this a story? Societally, we're like a bunch of fifth graders sniping at each other in a snit because so-and-so said this-and-that.

If all Dean's opponents have to talk about/contest him on is this comment, he should have the nomination wrapped up.

[paperjam1015]

I disagree. He wasn't really apologizing for the statement (though he did say it was clumsy), but that it hurt people. I think he waited because at first, he got a standing ovation about it, and they were really thinking it was not going to blow up the way it did.


From CNN.com: "I got off to a pretty clumsy start by making references to the Confederate flag and that was a painful reference for a number of people and I regret that and apologize for it."

Dean was asked by Hemmer why he didn't apologize during the
Boston forum, in which young people asked Democratic candidates an array of questions.

"I tend to be somebody, who under pressure, tends to fight back," Dean said.

"When they come after me I tend not to give an inch. I had the opportunity to think about it most of the night and I concluded that I was wrong."

Your boy was afraid he was gonna lose some votes..plain and simple....



Well, assuming that people that drive trucks with confederate flags are all poor white guys is just that: an assumption. Dean certainly didn't say that in that statement.
Ok, so no your boy didn't say that in his "apology" statement, but during the debates...according to CNN.com, this is what was said:

Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina later said, "Unless I missed something, Governor Dean still has not said he was wrong. Were you wrong, Howard?"

"No, I wasn't, John Edwards, because people who vote who fly the Confederate flag, I think they are wrong because I think the Confederate flag is a racist symbol," Dean said.

"But I think there are lot of poor people who fly that flag because the Republicans have been dividing us by race since 1968 with their Southern race strategy."

Whether he meant poor as in $$ or Poor as in pitiful doesn't matter to me...in my opinion that's pretty insulting...And no I don't own a truck or a confederate flag...


I'm just saying that there have to be better candidates. Do we really want someone who is already making statements like this in the white house?

[cheetah]

I still think there is a difference between apologizing for hurting people and apologizing for what the statement says. But, semantics.

Really though, why is it insulting to say there are people that are poor? There are. That's a fact. And while some people may disagree, many do see that the GOP has used poor people against each other, based on other values. I mean, when it comes down to it, what's more important, that you have a job that pays you enough to eat and pay rent or that homosexuals don't get to have the same rights as married couples? Most people would have to admit the first. Yet, the second is such a passionate, hot-button issue, that you can actually get people to vote on that issue alone, even though they will probably suffer repercussions in other areas. The GOP has done that successfully in this way (and I can't deny that the dems haven't done it, in other ways). Dean is doing what I find admirable, and that is that he is trying to show people that they should vote based on more substantive issues, that they should see past the inciteful issues. And that was Dean's point: Look past issues that divide you. Just because there are NAACP members who support me doesn't me people who have vitriolic hate for the NAACP can't too.

Lesson learned: Never use the words "Confederate Flag" in a sentence.

Also, Dean is not "my boy." I'm for ABB: Anyone But Bush!

[paperjam1015]

I'm for ABB: Anyone But Bush!

That's my point....he reminds me a lot of Bush!!

I just think his comments pushed people away from voting for him (Dean).

Yes, there are poor people (and many are white and in the south). No there is nothing worng with being poor. But to lump everyone together into a big stereotype, then stick by your sterotype because you are basically stubborn.... What's that about?

I don't think his apology was sincere. I think he should have left things where they were, because he already messed up. As I stated, the only category he described that fits me is that I live in the south. And I still am not voting for him. He might have great ideas, but he doesn't express them well. A political leader needs to be able to do both. Otherwise...join a think tank and let someone else do the talking.

[jku]

The Republican party has been getting lower income White Southerners who were with the Democrats before 1950 into their party using hatred toward Black people. It's simple.
When the Democrats decided to support Civil Rights in the 50s and 60s, first the Dixiecrats and Strom Thurmond rose up, then the GOP used that long held bigotry towards African-Americans to make the South a Republican voting block.
And what has the South got for it?

"Vietnam looked to be just one more chapter in this established story...The American troops were drawn mostly from the ranks of poor blacks and poor southern whites."

Smartest states ranking eludes South
A Kansas company that specializes in gathering educational statistics will release its smartest state numbers next week, and southern states continue to lag in the numbers.
Tennessee slipped from No. 39 last year to No. 42 in 2003. Mississippi stayed flat at No. 48, Arkansas at No. 38....
http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/stories/2003/10/06/daily18.html?t=printable

I think what Dean was saying is that the Southern White voter needs to start looking out for his wallet more, and looking out his window at his black neighbor LESS!

Another Dean Quote:
"We’ve got to stop having campaigns in the South based on race, guns, God and gays.”

Haley Barbour just became Governor in Mississippi, and was BOOSTED when it was found that he was in a picture on a website of a known racist organization.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-3350904,00.html

I've never been to the South - are people really like this, or is this an exaggeration? No one likes the truth being told about them - are these broad stereotypes of the South true?

And where do the Republicans stand on this issue? Do any on this list vote for the GOP based on "God, Guns, and Gays?"

The confederate flag was just a euphemism - why didn't Dean just say that!?
But at least Dean has the guts to discuss this obvious issue - why do poor Southerners vote with a party that is against their economic interests, and while we're at it; why do people in my area who gain more from Republican economic policies, vote for Democrats?

[paperjam1015]

Ok, let me first say that I am attmepting to offer an explaination. Not express my beliefs about any political party. I grew up in a predominately Republican environment and now am in a predominately Democratic environment. Both in the south.

"The Smartest State Award is based on 21 factors from Education State Rankings, an annual reference book that compares the 50 United States in more than 400 elementary and secondary education categories.

Factors considered include per pupil expenditures, public high school graduation rates, average class size, the percent of staff who are school district administrators, student reading, writing and math proficiency, pupil-teacher ratios and teacher salaries as a percent of average annual pay. "

There are good schools and bad schools here. I have never resided in any of the particular states to which the study refers. The southern states are at a disadvantage because of those poor people that Dean talks about. There are many rural area in the south. It is changing from a agricultural environment, though some areas are changing at slower paces than others. At any rate the school budgets here are experiencing a budgeting crisis. Teacher salaries are low and schools are overcrowded...as are many other areas, I'm sure. However as is quoted from the article, none of these ratings are actually based on any standardized testing scores. It does mention the reading, writing and math proficiencies, but doesn't mention how they arrived at this. Anyone know? I do know that we have plenty of excellent colloeges. I would imagine that that speaks for something.


As for the rest of your question, the southern states are considered the "bible belt" There are many "conservative Christians" who vote along republican party lines based on abortion, gun control and gay rights. I have been in church when a preacher was "gay bashing" from the pulpit. I have been in church when anti-abortion picket lines were encouraged. And why was gun control even discussed in church? Church is a very influential factor in the way some people vote.

And yes racism runs deep in parts of the south.

There is one issue that has not been touched on as far as why southerners are voting for Republicans: Tobacco and agricultural issues. It's big business down here.

The problem with sterotypes is that they are all-encompassing. These political views absolutely do not reflect my own and I have lived in the south my entire life. I have met many others who also do not share these views. There are also many who are migrating form other areas of the country and the world, who are changing the face of the south.


While I don't necessarily disagree with Dean's point, I do disagree with his method!

[Benwa]

I would say the stereotypes about southerners do hold some water. all stereotypes for that matter hold water. I personally think economic factors play a large roll in racism.Pre-civil war the south was fairly wealthy. And those whites who were poor still weren't on the bottom rung. Because no matter how bad there situation was, at least they weren't a slave. Then slavery was abolished and it threw a twist in everyone panties. The rich whites stood to loose there huge fortunes while the poor whites stood to lose much more. The black were becoming equal to them which was felt as a threat. I doubt it was something they consciously knew, but more likely something they felt. Even today, those who hold the lowest status in society have the most fiercest racist hate. Its true for black supremists as well, most came from ghettos.

This sentiment is reflected in some churches as well. It soothes that pain even more by telling folks that the divine creator is on their side, not the side of the homosexual. Imagine how that elevates someone, the holy creator thinks you are doing fine. This is a poison and gives religion a bad name. It's also counter productive to social health and equality.

Not being a "smart" state makes some difference. Southerners are far from stupid, in fact most people aren't stupid. The ranking is most likely based on education system results. There's a huge difference from being unable to comprehend and being failed by the system. And poor education leads to economic inferiority. Thus racism as described above. Hate groups and racism has nothing to do with hating blacks, gays or jews. It has to do with hating and loathing oneself or life situation.

As for what Dean said I'm sure it was not malicious, he just picked a poor example. He should have said he's running for guys who dig Nascar. Why he picked the flags on the trucks is beyond me. But I generally look at someones actions and not his words. Take W, he can tell us how righteous he is and how prolife he is and how much he loves jesus and how much he cares about americans. But his actions directly contradict his words and that is what I go by. Good words are OK, but good action is necassary.

[paperjam1015]

Benwa, I can agree with your last two paragraphs. And can go as far as seeing your point in the first two. But I don't agree with stereotypes. Ok, some people are the epitome of certain stereotypes, that's how they became stereotypes. I just don't want people who've never been to the south to think we all drive big trucks with conf flags and vote Republican. Nor are we all racist, homophobic, gun-toting, uneducated hicks. But yes I do know people who are like that...;)

Maybe my family hasn't been in the south long enough or even in the U.S. long enough for me to have turned out like that.