Dating who has it harder? [Archive]

shimma

10-28-2006, 01:17 PM

Well this article suggests men have it harder - and I happen to agree.

http://jmag.jdate.com/jmag/0601/miller.htm

Ohhhh come on. I think women have it easier when you're younger (early 20s) and it gets progressively harder for them, but that the converse is true for men.

As for this guy: Sure, the guy pays for dinner, but the women has paid for the clothes, lingerie, beauty treatments to get him to approach her in the first place, THEN she pays for the wedding and does most of the housework. It all evens out. Plus, I know loads of women who pursue men.

If he's seriously complaining that "nice guys" don't get dates, he's pursuing the wrong women.

And sure we can "charm our way out of traffic tickets", but if a man gets accosted by some thug in a dark alley, he'll get his ass kicked. A women in the same scenario gets her ass kicked, and raped, and in this day and age, probably some incurable deadly disease. Men don't have biological clocks. Or periods. Or nylons. etc.

ScottyTheBody

10-28-2006, 01:56 PM

Ohhhh come on. I think women have it easier when you're younger (early 20s) and it gets progressively harder for them, but that the converse is true for men.

You might be on to something here...it may get progressively harder for women when they get older (thus in contrast it must get easier for most men as they get older). Though still, later on, I still think its harder for men (in dating).

As for this guy: Sure, the guy pays for dinner, but the women has paid for the clothes, lingerie, beauty treatments to get him to approach her in the first place, THEN she pays for the wedding and does most of the housework. It all evens out. Plus, I know loads of women who pursue men.

I didn't get the clothes (she got them) or the beauty treatments (again she got which made her feel better) or the lingerie (what this is needed for to get a guy to approach a girl I don't know). I can't think of a single girl I dated that paid for my wedding, or did any housework for me. I don't know loads of women that pursue men, in fact I know of one and their relationship is one of the happiest relationships I've ever seen.

It may be balanced, if you get married, but you could sink a lot of money into something that may not ever happen.

If he's seriously complaining that "nice guys" don't get dates, he's pursuing the wrong women.

I'm not even going to comment on this because this type of discussion is starting to annoy me, I'm just going to have to accept it for what it is.

And sure we can "charm our way out of traffic tickets", but if a man gets accosted by some thug in a dark alley, he'll get his ass kicked. A women in the same scenario gets her ass kicked, and raped, and in this day and age, probably some incurable deadly disease. Men don't have biological clocks. Or periods. Or nylons. etc.

What does this have to do with dating? But then again, a lot of the stuff that he said later had nothing to do with dating, and I guess you were just challenging his theories.

CTGirl

10-28-2006, 02:21 PM

I can't believe that this is even being debated.

Agreed, my thoughts exactly, lol

shimma

10-28-2006, 02:48 PM

Though still, later on, I still think its harder for men (in dating).
Expound.

I didn't get the clothes (she got them) or the beauty treatments (again she got which made her feel better) or the lingerie (what this is needed for to get a guy to approach a girl I don't know).

You might not have approached her had she not made the effort to look attractive. Lingerie, once you're getting naked with/sleeping with someone has tons to do with things. ;)

I can't think of a single girl I dated that paid for my wedding, or did any housework for me.

Have you ever married one of them? ;)

I don't know loads of women that pursue men, in fact I know of one and their relationship is one of the happiest relationships I've ever seen.

See? :razz: I live in a much more liberal area than you though, I see it pretty often even if it isn't my personal MO, went to two weddings out of three this summer where the women had originally approached the man.

I'm not even going to comment on this because this type of discussion is starting to annoy me, I'm just going to have to accept it for what it is.

I'm just calling it like I see it. The guys I know that are married/in relationships (even to significantly more attractive women) are usually not the best looking, wealthiest, etc, guys I know, they are "just a great guy", "really cool", etc. This didn't start being true till my friends and I hit our mid/late 20s though.

What does this have to do with dating? But then again, a lot of the stuff that he said later had nothing to do with dating, and I guess you were just challenging his theories.

I brought it up so that you could poke holes in my arguement. That or I read the article and was refuting his arguments point by point. :lol: The end of his article just deterioriated into a "women have it easier in life, period" spiel, so I was debating against that claim.

ScottyTheBody

10-28-2006, 03:48 PM

You might not have approached her had she not made the effort to look attractive. Lingerie, once you're getting naked with/sleeping with someone has tons to do with things. ;)

Its a good thing us guys don't have to put in an effort to look attractive, otherwise we'd have a harder time getting dates and dating would be harder for men. The "you might not have approached her had she not made the effort to look attractive" is like a guy saying "he had to put money down on a Lexus or a nice new car to attract women because he might not have attracted a girl if he looks poor". A car is quite a bit more expensive than an outfit

Now,

Lets analyze the most probable scenario, the failed date and the outcome for both genders.

If the date goes sour, or there's not enough chemistry or for whatever the reason, the female still has a great outfit or lingerie for the next date (she still has something tangible and for herself). The guy however is not as lucky. His money that he sank into the date is well, wasted, it is not tangible and it sure doesn't make him feel good.

Have you ever married one of them? ;)

No I haven't, hence the term dating. I consider marriage not part of dating. The question was not which gender has it easier in life in general (which honestly I think is balanced) or even in relationships (again I think this is balanced too) but in dating (I don't think it is balanced).

See? :razz: I live in a much more liberal area than you though, I see it pretty often even if it isn't my personal MO, went to two weddings out of three this summer where the women had originally approached the man.

Could be the area that I live in, I'm not really sure.

I'm just calling it like I see it. The guys I know that are married/in relationships (even to significantly more attractive women) are usually not the best looking, wealthiest, etc, guys I know, they are "just a great guy", "really cool", etc. This didn't start being true till my friends and I hit our mid/late 20s though.

Mid/late 20s eh? Well I guess I'll just have to wait and see then.

I brought it up so that you could poke holes in my arguement. That or I read the article and was refuting his arguments point by point. :lol: The end of his article just deterioriated into a "women have it easier in life, period" spiel, so I was debating against that claim.

I don't think women have it easier in life. I don't think men have it easier in life either.

There are many things women get shafted for. There are also many things men get shafted for (dating being one of those things).

MrNCG23

10-28-2006, 04:45 PM

This thread is a complete joke.

Post an ad on Craigslist as a woman looking for a date.

Post an ad on Craigslist as a man looking for a date.

Women have it easier by far.

Fashionista

10-28-2006, 06:09 PM

Women have it harder in general dating wise.

When you add race, ethnicity to that it gets even worse for them.

SmilesSoSweet

10-28-2006, 06:24 PM

Ohhhh come on. I think women have it easier when you're younger (early 20s) and it gets progressively harder for them, but that the converse is true for men.

If it was supposed to be "easier" for me in my early 20s, then I'm REALLY screwed now.

And this is just coming from a girl who never had a date in high school or college. :neutral:

dddork

10-28-2006, 07:09 PM

For women.. they've got to deal with me and thats a tough job!!

stonemonkey

10-28-2006, 08:09 PM

As for this guy: Sure, the guy pays for dinner, but the women has paid for the clothes, lingerie, beauty treatments to get him to approach her in the first place, THEN she pays for the wedding and does most of the housework. It all evens out. Plus, I know loads of women who pursue men.

If he's seriously complaining that "nice guys" don't get dates, he's pursuing the wrong women.

If women are seriously complaining that they need clothes, lingerie and beauty treatments just to get dates, they're pursuing the wrong men.

stonemonkey

10-28-2006, 08:19 PM

You might not have approached her had she not made the effort to look attractive.

But don't you think it goes both ways? Don't guys have to make an effort? Why can't you turn that statement around and say that the woman might have just rejected him had he not made the effort to look attractive?

I don't know what you're trying to say here, unless you're implying that men are more superficial than women and don't have to make any effort. I don't want to start a gender war here (as provocative as this thread is) but I can't say I'm a huge fan of male-bashing either.

LaFille

10-28-2006, 09:38 PM

stonemonkey

10-28-2006, 09:47 PM

when i was in college, the guys definitely had it easier, simply because my school was over 60% female. it was frustrating for me, because basically the girls had to do all the pursuing and the guys had a much, much larger selection.

But that's just one particular circumstance. If you lived my life then you'd see that it's a very different story where I am. I simply don't interact with girls in my daily routine, which is 100% male, I have to make an effort to go after them. So don't talk to me about guys having the larger selection.

I think the question is flawed. Guys and girls have it differently.

LaFille

10-28-2006, 09:48 PM

Its a good thing us guys don't have to put in an effort to look attractive, otherwise we'd have a harder time getting dates and dating would be harder for men. The "you might not have approached her had she not made the effort to look attractive" is like a guy saying "he had to put money down on a Lexus or a nice new car to attract women because he might not have attracted a girl if he looks poor". A car is quite a bit more expensive than an outfit

do guys really do this? i would probably not date a guy with a luxury car, so it would be a bad investment if you wanted to date me :huge: this is a crazy analogy anyway. we're not all gold-diggers, believe it or not.

i am a huge advocate of cheap first dates so that whoever's paying doesn't feel used if it goes nowhere. if i like you, i'll make it up to you in the long run anyway ;):

LaFille

10-28-2006, 09:52 PM

But that's just one particular circumstance. If you lived my life then you'd see that it's a very different story where I am. I simply don't interact with girls in my daily routine, which is 100% male, I have to make an effort to go after them. So don't talk to me about guys having the larger selection.

i know, i did say that in that particular circumstance, most of the guys had it easier. i don't doubt that your situation is more difficult than that of the guys at my college if you interact 100% with males. but throw 100 people in a room... 60 girls and 40 guys... and the guys are going to have better odds.

i also said that now that i'm in the 'real world' things have evened out.

PenforPrez

10-28-2006, 09:52 PM

do guys really do this? i would probably not date a guy with a luxury car, so it would be a bad investment if you wanted to date me :huge: this is a crazy analogy anyway. we're not all gold-diggers, believe it or not.

I never put any stock in that. I have a nice red Buick that I TRY to keep clean. I love my Buick. If a lady is going to say I drive an "old guy car," then I obviously wanted no part of it. :)

i am a huge advocate of cheap first dates so that whoever's paying doesn't feel used if it goes nowhere. if i like you, i'll make it up to you in the long run anyway ;):

What about those of us too poor to pay for even a cheap first date?? (i.e. me)

Paul

MrNCG23

10-28-2006, 09:54 PM

I personally can not comprehend how it is more difficult for a woman to get a date. I realize this is just my opinion, but I'll state my case again: for all the people who believe women have it harder, they can take up the craigslistpotting challenge I presented on the first page.

LaFille

10-28-2006, 09:56 PM

What about those of us too poor to pay for even a cheap first date?? (i.e. me)

even just coffee? :sad:

my feeling is that whoever does the asking does the paying. if i get the sense that the guy i'm with is broke i always offer to pay my share. i used to offer every single time until one of the older women i work with told me not to because you have to make men work for it lol...

PenforPrez

10-28-2006, 10:05 PM

even just coffee? :sad:

Coffee I can do unless it's close to payday. :huge: I usually ask for dinner, as I'm usually hungry.

my feeling is that whoever does the asking does the paying. if i get the sense that the guy i'm with is broke i always offer to pay my share. i used to offer every single time until one of the older women i work with told me not to because you have to make men work for it lol...

It makes me feel better if a girl offers to pay her share. I'm NOT cheap; if I could afford to pay for it, I gladly would. But it also shows me that a girl is willing to be fair, and that is very important.

Paul

and1grad

10-29-2006, 01:14 AM

I personally can not comprehend how it is more difficult for a woman to get a date.
Thats b/c it ISNT more difficult. Honestly, that should be RATHER obvious.

shimma

10-29-2006, 01:17 AM

What about those of us too poor to pay for even a cheap first date?? (i.e. me)

Paul

Take her on a free first date?

shimma

10-29-2006, 01:22 AM

If it was supposed to be "easier" for me in my early 20s, then I'm REALLY screwed now.

You're not screwed, SSS, because you're seriously a beautiful, funny, sweet, cool, intelligent, interesting, gutsy, deep, Grade-A, top choice lady and any guy would be lucky to snag you! I'd totally date you if I were a single dude in your time zone. :)

I just meant there seem to be a lot of guys our age still in the fratboy (get drunk till you puke every weekend, etc) stage and they seem to go for younger (early 20s) women who don't demand things like commitment and Blockbuster nights like us evil old hags in our mid/late 20s do.

Jedi of Zen

10-29-2006, 01:48 AM

I read somewhere once that men play the game, and women keep the score.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 02:53 AM

I just meant there seem to be a lot of guys our age still in the fratboy (get drunk till you puke every weekend, etc) stage and they seem to go for younger (early 20s) women who don't demand things like commitment and Blockbuster nights like us evil old hags in our mid/late 20s do.

Yeah, but we're not all like that. I know nobody believes this, but I'm going to say it anyway, decent guys do exist.

PenforPrez

10-29-2006, 08:31 AM

I read somewhere once that men play the game, and women keep the score.

Dating is harder to score than bowling. ;)

ScottyTheBody

10-29-2006, 11:07 AM

do guys really do this? i would probably not date a guy with a luxury car, so it would be a bad investment if you wanted to date me :huge: this is a crazy analogy anyway. we're not all gold-diggers, believe it or not.

i am a huge advocate of cheap first dates so that whoever's paying doesn't feel used if it goes nowhere. if i like you, i'll make it up to you in the long run anyway ;):

Firstly, yes some guys ACTUALLY do go out and buy a luxury car because they believe it will attract more women.

I know all women are not gold diggers, that was my purpose of the analogy. You see, not all guys are SO SHALLOW that they wouldn't date you because you forgot to wear the extremely expensive outfit you bought at the mall. It was just in response to the "you might not have approached her if she didn't have this nice outfit". I, like many many many guys, go for the person, not the outfit, lingerie or beauty supplies. Women aren't always gold diggers and men aren't always shallow.

The thing is, if you like them you'll make it up to them. Fine. However, you often like less people than you dislike, and those who you dislike (or they dislike you), will often shaft the guys (with the very least an empty pocket).

Whoever's paying? Don't kid yourself. If the girl has to pay (on extremely rare occasions), she'd whine to her friends at how cheap the guy is and then there will be no second date.

ScottyTheBody

10-29-2006, 11:17 AM

when i was in college, the guys definitely had it easier, simply because my school was over 60% female. it was frustrating for me, because basically the girls had to do all the pursuing and the guys had a much, much larger selection. now that i'm in the 'real world' though, i think it's pretty even and depends on the individual. my 'issues' for dating are different than the problems most of my friends encounter when dating, and i'm sure this transcends gender.

i do think it is harder for women when they get older simply because of the whole 'biological clock' thing. and you may disagree, but i think men tend to get more and more attractive with age, whereas some women (not all!) start to go downhill once they hit middle age. lots of women are crazy about sophisticated older guys with salt-and-pepper hair. like george clooney.

60%? That at least gives you around 30% males.

You should see my university, which is closer to 70% males. Or even my program, where I know both (that's right, both) of the girls in my 5 classes.

So girls had to do some pursuing? Welcome to everyday of the male's dating life and contrary to popular belief, not many guys actually enjoy playing the game.

However, I agree dating does become harder for women as they get older (but it still is simpler than it is for men).

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 04:04 PM

I have to say, it's easy for me to get dates (this is NOT me bragging, read on). It's because of where I live, the fact that I'm a rare commodity - somebody who didn't get married in my early twenties. There just are not a lot of fish in the sea, if you're a single woman where I live, you'll get asked out a lot, because there's no huge competition. So you see what I mean by "not bragging," it's oh-so-flattering to get asked out a lot purely on the premise of "you're what's available."

It's easy for ME to get dates...I don't presume that women not in my position "enjoy" the same circumstance.

And the reason enjoy is in quotes is this...it being relatively easy to get dates is being looked at as some kind of great thing. What? Being asked out is perhaps flattering at best. Like I said, to me, it's not that flattering, because it's not necessarily because of anything other than me being one of the few single women of a certain age in the area. And getting dates is not the big a deal. I know, people who aren't getting dates and would kill to get some are really gonna think I'm being a superior bitch for saying that, but it's true. As a woman, so what if I get dates? I'd rather meet somebody special, and stop dating, than have lots of dates.

And I think there's a point at which the "who's it easier for" shifts. It may be easier for women to get dates...but it's easier for men (who want to) to get into relationships...which is what most women end up eventually wanting, even the ones who are all about just dating at a given time of life, they're not gonna be satisfied with just dating forever. I would venture to say that more women have to deal with anti-relationship men than men have to deal with anti-relationship women. So there is a tradeoff. It might be easier to get the dates, but in the end, it's weighted more to men for the ultimate payoff in terms of things that lead to a committed relationship.

and1grad

10-29-2006, 04:35 PM

It may be easier for women to get dates...but it's easier for men (who want to) to get into relationships...which is what most women end up eventually wanting, even the ones who are all about just dating at a given time of life, they're not gonna be satisfied with just dating forever. I would venture to say that more women have to deal with anti-relationship men than men have to deal with anti-relationship women. So there is a tradeoff. It might be easier to get the dates, but in the end, it's weighted more to men for the ultimate payoff in terms of things that lead to a committed relationship.
I can agree with that. There are definitely less anti-relationship women so I can see where you're coming from. Both genders end up gambling at some point.

Krishna

10-29-2006, 04:57 PM

swordfish77

10-29-2006, 05:34 PM

Women get asked out more than men, yet men are also more likely to experience rejection. Psychological studies have backed that up. The exceptions might be a stud male (a rock star or pro basketball player) or a dud female (300-pound beluga or Halloween-mask looks).

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 05:43 PM

I think women have it harder for the most part.
1) There's the double standard in effect
2) We are often left in the position of no power- some men don't like women who are in control
3) The final blow comes when taking the ultimate step in any relationship....we aren't the ones who (usually) get to propose, so we're subject to the whims of the men! ;):

*Time to duck and cover*

1) The double standard is just as likely to work against guys.
2) You have the veto power, the power to say no, how is that not power?
3) So guys get to propose, so what? Women get to say yes or no.

jeez, you make it sound like men have all the power and women are just helpless, vulnerable, precious little things who are "subject to the whims of men". I strongly disagree with that.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 05:44 PM

...but it's easier for men (who want to) to get into relationships...

I strongly disagree with this too. I think most guys on this board would as well.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 05:49 PM

I'm talking about dating that shifts into relationship mode. Far more men then women prefer to date sans commitment. Far more.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 05:54 PM

Is it just me, or does anyone find it really hard to make a rational decision on this subject without letting their own painful experiences cloud their judgment?

I do see the point that women getting dates easily isn't always good. If there was a line of girls who weren't right for me outside my door, I wouldn't be happy either. Does that beat being alone? I don't know.

Krishna

10-29-2006, 05:56 PM

1) The double standard is just as likely to work against guys.
2) You have the veto power, the power to say no, how is that not power?
3) So guys get to propose, so what? Women get to say yes or no.

jeez, you make it sound like men have all the power and women are just helpless, vulnerable, precious little things who are "subject to the whims of men". I strongly disagree with that.

This is why I ducked and covered up there. I would still argue that most men hold the power in the relationships. At least those I've been in. :neutral:

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 05:57 PM

This is why I ducked and covered up there. I would still argue that most men hold the power in the relationships. At least those I've been in. :neutral:

That's more to do with the men you've chosen.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 06:01 PM

Is it just me, or does anyone find it really hard to make a rational decision on this subject without letting their own painful experiences cloud their judgment?

I don't have any painful dating experiences. Less than thrilling, sure...painful, not really. As mentioned, I've never had a difficulty getting dates. So I feel pretty rational.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 06:04 PM

Well, I have to admit that I don't think I'm seeing things rationally here.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 06:04 PM

This is why I ducked and covered up there. I would still argue that most men hold the power in the relationships. At least those I've been in. :neutral:

Men don't hold the power in relationships. Women don't hold the power in relationships. Whoever wants to be in the relationship less holds the power in relationships. They have less at stake.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 06:05 PM

Whoever wants to be in the relationship less holds the power in relationships. They have less at stake.

So the only relationships you control are the ones you don't really want to be in?

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 06:10 PM

If we're talking about control=the power to end or continue a relationship. "Power" in relationships lies with the person who ends them. You can't make somebody stay in a relationship if they don't want to. If you're the person who wants the relationship to continue and they other party doesn't want to, you have absolutely no power in the situation.

Whoever wants the relationship less def. holds the cards. They're the ones who choose whether or not the relationship continues.

LaFille

10-29-2006, 06:11 PM

60%? That at least gives you around 30% males.

You should see my university, which is closer to 70% males. Or even my program, where I know both (that's right, both) of the girls in my 5 classes.

So girls had to do some pursuing? Welcome to everyday of the male's dating life and contrary to popular belief, not many guys actually enjoy playing the game.

lol, what would the other 10% be?

the particular situation i mentioned at my school was just one example, i never said that it was like that for everyone. and you want to know what happens when the girls do all the pursuing in an atmosphere like that? no relationships occur, there is tons of casual sex/random hookups, no one actually goes on dates unless you count friday night at the bar, and basically i think a lot of girls sacraficed a lot in the situation because they had to sort of give in to the guys to get any male attention. so yeah, it was tough when we gals were such a majority. and please don't play the 'it must have been the guys you chose' card because i'm not referring to myself.

Krishna

10-29-2006, 06:13 PM

Men don't hold the power in relationships. Women don't hold the power in relationships. Whoever wants to be in the relationship less holds the power in relationships. They have less at stake.

This is very very true.

LaFille

10-29-2006, 06:15 PM

Whoever's paying? Don't kid yourself. If the girl has to pay (on extremely rare occasions), she'd whine to her friends at how cheap the guy is and then there will be no second date.
like i said... whoever does the inviting does the paying. and again, first dates should be cheap anyway. coffee or drinks or lunch or something.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 06:16 PM

But for every example you can give of it being tough for girls, guys can come up with their own one showing the opposite. It's a stalemate.

ScottyTheBody

10-29-2006, 06:24 PM

lol, what would the other 10% be?

the particular situation i mentioned at my school was just one example, i never said that it was like that for everyone. and you want to know what happens when the girls do all the pursuing in an atmosphere like that? no relationships occur, there is tons of casual sex/random hookups, no one actually goes on dates unless you count friday night at the bar, and basically i think a lot of girls sacraficed a lot in the situation because they had to sort of give in to the guys to get any male attention. so yeah, it was tough when we gals were such a majority. and please don't play the 'it must have been the guys you chose' card because i'm not referring to myself.

In your post you said at more than 60% females (I think so had I said 40% I would have been incorrect), so I assumed between 60 and 70 percent leaving at least 30% males (but then again I assumed so this could be just as incorrect). I didn't mean to imply that it would be a difficult dating life at that school.

I didn't play the 'it must have been the guys you chose' card and I didn't intend to.

LaFille

10-29-2006, 06:24 PM

But for every example you can give of it being tough for girls, guys can come up with their own one showing the opposite. It's a stalemate.
situations and personalities make it tough for people. it can't simply be blamed on gender.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 06:27 PM

situations and personalities make it tough for people. it can't simply be blamed on gender.

I agree, I'm sure there are plenty of awesome, undeservedly single girls out there. Victims of situation and personality.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 06:42 PM

ScottyTheBody

10-29-2006, 06:43 PM

like i said... whoever does the inviting does the paying. and again, first dates should be cheap anyway. coffee or drinks or lunch or something.

Guess who HAS to do the inviting almost ALL of the time. If I didn't ask anyone out, I would never date ANYONE. EVER. That's also true for every single guy that I know too.

Even when the girl knows without a single doubt in her mind that the guy likes her and he doesn't have a clue as to whether she likes him, he almost always has to ask her out, otherwise its just not going to happen.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just cover whatever you get? Like when I invite guy friends out, they don't expect me to pay, that doesn't even cross their mind. But for some reason when I ask girl's who are friends out some where, strictly as friends, its like some of them expect me to pay.

When you invite your friends out, do you pay for them?

I know this sounds like I'm cheap but I'm actually quite far from it (I could care less about dishing out an extra money for dinner but it just seems kind of conceited to expect that). It's just the principle of it I guess.

So in any case, the person who invites (who almost always is the male), has to pay. Which again implies the male gets shafted in dating much more often than the female.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 06:45 PM

Wouldn't it make more sense to just cover whatever you get?

Makes sense to me. I never expect to be paid for. Sometimes it's offered, sometimes I take somebody up on it, sometimes I say, "No, really, I can get this one."

It's the same when I go out with my friends. Sometimes I offer to get the round, tab for dinner, whatever, and say, "Spot me next time."

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 06:52 PM

And timing, timing, timing. You can meet the best person in the world for you, and vice versa. If the timing ain't right, though, ain't happening. And that's not something that differs by gender. It's just a universal.

I agree with this completely. I have a hard time accepting that it's out of my control though. Saying that it all comes down to timing feels to me like accepting some sort of defeat, that it's all the luck of the draw, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

And I don't want to accept that it's just a matter of circumstance, because then it leads me to start thinking that I was screwed from the start.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 07:06 PM

It really is all circumstances, though, when you really take things apart.

I look back at the handful of guys I could really have most likely had something quality and lasting with, (i.e. not people I casually dated where it just wasn't likely to come to anything much, but people where there really was that promise of a real, solid connection), and I have the following scenarios:

1. I met him and became friends with him when he was obsessed with somebody else (who wasn't into him). There was never a shot at him seeing me in a way that would come to anything, whereas if he hadn't had the unrequited thing going on, it may have been different.

2. He wasn't emotionally ready...that is, he seriously wasn't emotionally ready. He was battling mood disorders at the time, anxiety and depression...and by the time he came to grips with all that, it was years later and too late.

3. We are/were good friends, maybe even "soul mates," (I know everybody hates that word, but I'll use it for simplicity's sake). But he was already married when we met.

4. We live a distance apart that presents all kinds of barriers.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 07:16 PM

But what can you do about it? I guess you can only do so much, and after that, it's all luck and timing. That's why we have an entire subforum dedicated to the subject.

I dunno, I guess I have this whole 'master of my own destiny' complex that refuses to accept that how this will all pan out in the end is just one big diceroll. Like if I'd gone to a school that was 60% female, then it'd be easier, rather than being stuck in a field that's 99% male, in which I'm screwed from the start.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 07:20 PM

But you can't do anything about it...the most you can do is place yourself in the situations likely to be most favorable, but in all honesty, meeting the right person at the right time is, like most of life, not ultimately under your control.

You're only master of your own destiny to a certain extent. The rest depends on other people and their situations. You can only do so much.

LaFille

10-29-2006, 07:24 PM

Wouldn't it make more sense to just cover whatever you get? Like when I invite guy friends out, they don't expect me to pay, that doesn't even cross their mind. But for some reason when I ask girl's who are friends out some where, strictly as friends, its like some of them expect me to pay.

that's stupid... i'd never expect a guy friend to pay for me just because he was a guy, and i have no problem covering other people and buying drinks and stuff. if your female friends are constantly relying on you to pay for them, i think that's ridiculous.

this whole topic is ridiculous. :huge:

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 07:24 PM

You're only master of your own destiny to a certain extent. The rest depends on other people and their situations. You can only do so much.

I know, I know, you're right. It's my thinking otherwise that gets me into trouble, when I start stressing about what else I could be doing better.

So what happens then? Fate deals you out the cards that say "well, you're going to be single now, and that's pretty much it'. I guess you just accept it, because you'll go crazy otherwise.

SmilesSoSweet

10-29-2006, 07:29 PM

So what happens then? Fate deals you out the cards that say "well, you're going to be single now, and that's pretty much it'. I guess you just accept it, because you'll go crazy otherwise.

Exactly. That's what I had to do. I just had to except the fact that I may be single for awhile and not worry too much about it, though it's tough.

I'd like to get married sometime, but that's also not a guaranteed thing and it took me awhile to finally except that.

Dating isn't fun at all. It actually sucks! I'm barely just getting back into this whole dating thing and it's not fun.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 07:53 PM

I know, I know, you're right. It's my thinking otherwise that gets me into trouble, when I start stressing about what else I could be doing better.

So what happens then? Fate deals you out the cards that say "well, you're going to be single now, and that's pretty much it'. I guess you just accept it, because you'll go crazy otherwise.

Pretty much. The truth is, you only control your own life if you can isolate yourself 100% from other people and their stuff. And of course you can't. So your life is never under your own control, at least not entirely.

It is true. I look at my own situation, and think, "Hmm, I could probaby be dating a lot more if I relocated to a place where there is a bigger dating pool." But the truth is, I did live in one of the largest cities in the country for several years, and have dated a ton more since living in a small town. I barely dated at all when I lived in a place most would predict to be a better dating scene, a large urban area full of singles my age. So there's more to it than just any one given set of criteria. You can only do so much.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 07:56 PM

It's a different approach than you would take with a career then, isn't it? If there was a particular career path that I was passionate about, then I would fight tooth and nail and exhaust every possible option until I achieved it. I guess that's what they call ambition. Whereas the same ambition can't be applied to dating.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 08:17 PM

As you may have noticed, I've really come to feel like the same strategies get employed in snagging the dream job as in finding and getting the best mate possible. Almost everything is parallel...the effort to put yourself in the right place at the right time, using connections when possible, making sure you present yourself as the best possible choice, playing up your selling points while downplaying the things that make you a weaker candidate, putting your best foot forward from the beginning, etc.

But in job searches, the same thing happens...things become out of your hands sometimes. You can do everything right...and still not get the job. Maybe you weren't in the right place at the right time, like the dream job I nearly landed, but ultimately, the position was frozen. Maybe you had every possible characteristic of the right person for the job, but were passed over for somebody who knew somebody, or better fit an underrepresented demographic, or God knows what else. In that setting, too, no matter how ambitious you are, you can't make somebody (whether that person is a postential partner or a potential hiring person) choose you if they've determined they're not going to, regardless of your "qualifications."

lostindc

10-29-2006, 08:20 PM

that's stupid... i'd never expect a guy friend to pay for me just because he was a guy, and i have no problem covering other people and buying drinks and stuff. if your female friends are constantly relying on you to pay for them, i think that's ridiculous.

this whole topic is ridiculous. :huge:

For a ridiculous topic - this thread has generated more responses than any other thread I started.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 08:26 PM

In that setting, too, no matter how ambitious you are, you can't make somebody (whether that person is a postential partner or a potential hiring person) choose you if they've determined they're not going to, regardless of your "qualifications."

If it were a job, I'd go back and try to get as many qualifications as I can to increase my chances of getting hired, to make myself stand out from the competition.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 08:27 PM

If it were a job, I'd go back and try to get as many qualifications as I can to increase my chances of getting hired, to make myself stand out from the competition.

But my point is, you can be qualified to the hilt, every i dotted and t crossed, and still not get it, via circumstances completely and totally out of your control and having absolutely nothing to do with your level of qualification. Believe me, I just lived it. And I DID beat out the competition.

The same is true of dating. You might be the best possible pick, doesn't mean it's happening. And it's damned frustrating.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 08:35 PM

I guess the difference is that people will settle for a less than satisfactory job, just to pay the bills.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 08:40 PM

Ah, but there is no difference as I see it. People will also settle for an "okay" mate just to combat loneliness, get laid on a regular basis, satisfy their perception (or those of others close to them) of societal expections, etc.

Just as not everyone holds out for the ideal job, but oftentimes fall into a rut where they will take what they can get, people will also fail to hold out for the most satisfying relationship possible and take what they can get.

Settling for a relationship because it's better than being alone (which many people do) is no different than settling for a job because it pays the bills (which many also do).

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 08:45 PM

I wonder how many people achieve their ideal job and ideal partner. I have one out of two which isn't too bad.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 08:52 PM

Nothing is ideal. You will always have to compromise something. Jobwise, partnerwise, lifewise.

LaFille

10-29-2006, 09:56 PM

For a ridiculous topic - this thread has generated more responses than any other thread I started.
ha ha yeah it seems to be pretty controversial! because no one is really going to back down and say 'i, for one, think dating is the easiest thing ever.' thing is, the more i think about it, the more abstract the question becomes...

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 10:01 PM

ha ha yeah it seems to be pretty controversial! because no one is really going to back down and say 'i, for one, think dating is the easiest thing ever.' thing is, the more i think about it, the more abstract the question becomes...

because the people who would say that are all out on dates.

LaFille

10-29-2006, 10:02 PM

I wonder how many people achieve their ideal job and ideal partner. I have one out of two which isn't too bad.
this is going to sound depressing, but the more older people i am exposed to, the more i have come to realize how rare it is for two people to get together, fall in love, and stay in love forever. there are so many seemingly perfect marriages out there that are actually loveless. it definitely scares me, but i guess now the best prevention i can take is not 'settling' on a partner. my own parents are more in love now than the day they got married, so i've always grown up with a very idealistic view of marriage and relationships, but it's not really the norm at all.

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 10:05 PM

I agree. But the prospect of being the sad, pathetic old guy with no wife and no friends who dies of loneliness is pretty scary.

wordsmith

10-29-2006, 10:08 PM

Not true. I don't think dating's hard, and I'm not out on a date right now. But I could be...

My best example of marriages and relationships comes from my parents, too. It's not idealized, either...I learned from watching them that marriage is damned hard and there are things that can rip you apart if you're not committed to making something work. It's not all roses and "la la la, we're so in love and that makes everything simple and great." Everybody's got problems, all couples struggle. Not all give up, though, and the ones who don't, it's mostly because they chose wisely to begin with.

LaFille

10-29-2006, 10:11 PM

I agree. But the prospect of being the sad, pathetic old guy with no wife and no friends who dies of loneliness is pretty scary.

well, it's up to you how you perceive yourself. i know plenty of childless, unmarried people who are middle-aged and up, and i don't consider any of them pathetic at all. at least not for that reason ;)! my dad has a friend who is probably 50, single, no kids, and he is freaking awesome! he travels all the time because he has the time and lack of committments, he's super involved in the community and has a ton of friends, and he seems to be pretty happy with life.

stonemonkey, i think you are a little hard on yourself. :neutral:

stonemonkey

10-29-2006, 10:14 PM

You're right, I do have to stop doing that. Old habits die hard.

Winter Storm

10-30-2006, 11:05 AM

I've been in this arguement before and I'm not really going to get all bent out of shape about it again but of course, I believe women have it much harder for the simple fact that women, in general, have a tendencey to get way more emotional about things making it harder to deal with, well, everything. Of course, I'm making generalizations and speaking solely from my own personal experiences and observations.

I have very rarely seen a guy get all bent out of shape (aside from this board where men on here act nothing like men I've met in real life, had to add that!) worrying about whether he's going to get a calback, whether he's being used for sex, whether he'll ruin his long-term chances by putting out too soon and being cast into the 'slutty' category, worrying about where things will go, if they'll go far, if things will get exclusive, if love will ever enter the picture, if they'll move into together, when then engagement ring with enter the picture and if there will ever be wedding bells.

That's not to say that these things don't worry guys, but I just don't happen to witness it myself.

I have seen countless girls cry their eyes out worrying about whether the One guy will ever come along, whether they will ever get married, have kids, have sex and be loved again. Emotionally, I just see women taking things much harder and thus making the dating scene much harder.

I think more women view each date as a potential Mr. Right and get more upset when things don't work out. We generally think further ahead in the future and want something long-term, lasting and meaningful.

Again, I'm obviously making generalizations. Sue me.

WorkInProgress

10-30-2006, 11:07 AM

I think that each gender has a hard time, as a general rule. But I'm not sure that either has a more difficult time than the other, in a macro sense.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 11:10 AM

I also think that the things that make dating difficult for either gender are totally DIFFERENT types of things...which makes neither necessarily harder or less hard. Like Winter said, you're not gonna catch a guy crying about the same things a woman in a similar position is crying about. But you're not gonna catch a woman worrying about the same things a many will be worrying about.

Deavan

10-30-2006, 11:20 AM

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 11:24 AM

I don't see men haveing long term emotional issues from dating, sure a bruised ego here and there but men seem to bounce back quickly.

I don't see many of the men I am friends with suffering with long term emotional affects because of dating, but i do see this with my girl friends and with myself.

I disagree. There are def. men with emotional scars from dating/relationship woes. Do they talk about them, analyze and obsess over them like we do? Bitch to their friends about them? Nope, they mostly bury them, clam up about them, and let them fester and sabotage and ruin all their future relationships.

Winter Storm

10-30-2006, 11:29 AM

I don't see many of the men I am friends with suffering with long term emotional affects because of dating, but i do see this with my girl friends and with myself.

Yeah. But don't get me wrong, that's not to say that it doesn't happen, we women just may never see that because maybe men choose to keep that to themselves.

I'm just speaking on what I see at the surface and besides my one guy friend, I know no guy that really stresses over dating or finding a girlfriend. My guy friends do NOT want relationships right now, only fun and what pisses them off most is not getting any sex. They do NOT get emotionally attached to girls they date and don't stress over the little details like returning phone calls, communicating frequently and wondering where its going. They say if a nice girl comes along, cool, but if not, oh well. No stress on them. They are unconcerned.

And with most girls I know out here dating for the purpose of making a meaningful connection, you can see where all the dilemnas come in. We want love and committment, they don't. Drama ensues. Who ends up hurt? The women? What do the men do? Move on to the next pretty face.

WorkInProgress

10-30-2006, 11:32 AM

Yeah. But don't get me wrong, that's not to say that it doesn't happen, we women just may never see that because maybe men choose to keep that to themselves.

I'm just speaking on what I see at the surface and besides my one guy friend, I know no guy that really stresses over dating or finding a girlfriend. My guy friends do NOT want relationships right now, only fun and what pisses them off most is not getting any sex. They do NOT get emotionally attached to girls they date and don't stress over the little details like returning phone calls, communicating frequently and wondering where its going. They say if a nice girl comes along, cool, but if not, oh well. No stress on them. They are unconcerned.

And with most girls I know out here dating for the purpose of making a meaningful connection, you can see where all the dilemnas come in. We want love and committment, they don't. Drama ensues. Who ends up hurt? The women? What do the men do? Move on to the next pretty face.

This is where I think the maturity issue comes in. But I'm not sure we want to open that can of worms again.

LaFille

10-30-2006, 11:46 AM

I have very rarely seen a guy get all bent out of shape (aside from this board where men on here act nothing like men I've met in real life, had to add that!) worrying about whether he's going to get a calback, whether he's being used for sex, whether he'll ruin his long-term chances by putting out too soon and being cast into the 'slutty' category, worrying about where things will go, if they'll go far, if things will get exclusive, if love will ever enter the picture, if they'll move into together, when then engagement ring with enter the picture and if there will ever be wedding bells.

yeah, this is sort of what i was getting at when i was talking about my school.... since guys pretty much had the upper hand, being in the vast minority, the 'dating' scene at my school pretty much consisted of drunken promiscuity and a total lack of commitment anywhere. things never went past the hook-up stage, because they never really had to, and a lot of girls got hurt.

Winter Storm

10-30-2006, 11:53 AM

yeah, this is sort of what i was getting at when i was talking about my school.... since guys pretty much had the upper hand, being in the vast minority, the 'dating' scene at my school pretty much consisted of drunken promiscuity and a total lack of commitment anywhere. things never went past the hook-up stage, because they never really had to, and a lot of girls got hurt.
Sounds like your school is a lot like men I know except the guys I know are aged 25-33 and still in the 'hooking up only' phase. In fact, most people I know have someone somewhere they can hook up with. 'Friends with benefits' and f-buddies run rampant around these parts leaving little incentive for many men to really date.

LaFille

10-30-2006, 12:00 PM

Sounds like your school is a lot like men I know except the guys I know are aged 25-33 and still in the 'hooking up only' phase. In fact, most people I know have someone somewhere they can hook up with. 'Friends with benefits' and f-buddies run rampant around these parts leaving little incentive for many men to really date.
luckily i'm not in college anymore, but i do agree that a lot of guys i know are still in that mode... and a lot of girls too. funny thing about guys is you'll have 33 year old boys acting like college guys, and 23 year old men being mature and responsible. some get it soon, some never will...

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 12:25 PM

I categorically refuse to be the f*ck buddy. Make it not an option, guys quit expecting it. If they prefer to find it elsewhere, from somebody who will play it that way, big loss, they obviously weren't for me.

Girls who agree to the FWB thing DO end up emotionally savaged much of the time. But you bring it on yourself if you enter into that sort of situation. It's pretty difficult to get emotionally savaged by being somebody's "friend with benefits" if you refuse to BE that girl. You don't wanna get hurt by meaningless hookups, don't participate in them.

Winter Storm

10-30-2006, 12:32 PM

Most guys I know (and some girls too) have F-buddies. So why would they spend any amount of time and money trying to date when they can have their cake and fuck it too.

Just makes it that much harder for the girls out here looking for something meaningful. They are outdone by the girl out here giving it away. All for the benefit of some lucky schmucks who are having their fun, without the confines of dating.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 12:36 PM

They are outdone by the girl out here giving it away.

Sorry, but if I'm outdone by "that girl" in a guy's eyes...the guy's not my type anyway.

PenforPrez

10-30-2006, 12:38 PM

I don't see men haveing long term emotional issues from dating, sure a bruised ego here and there but men seem to bounce back quickly.

I don't see many of the men I am friends with suffering with long term emotional affects because of dating, but i do see this with my girl friends and with myself.

You'd be surprised. Whenever I tell my therapist about having problems meeting single women, she always likes to remind me she has a lot of young patients who have the same exact problem, male and female. It doesn't make me feel better, but that's not why she tells me that. ;)

Paul

CTGirl

10-30-2006, 12:41 PM

I don't see men haveing long term emotional issues from dating, sure a bruised ego here and there but men seem to bounce back quickly.

I don't see many of the men I am friends with suffering with long term emotional affects because of dating, but i do see this with my girl friends and with myself.

I disagree. (anyone else who gets a Family Guy flashback any time you hear that phrase is my new best friend, lol)

I have seen lots of guys who are damaged by the relationships they've had with girls, or the lack thereof.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 12:46 PM

I have seen lots of guys who are damaged by the relationships they've had with girls, or the lack thereof.

Me, too. They always end up dating me. :googly: That's always fun.

Like I said earlier, damaged guys don't shout and scream their anguish and baggage to the rooftops. They let it grow into shitty little tumors of resentment and mistrust within them and never really let you know until you figure it out yourself.

CTGirl

10-30-2006, 12:49 PM

Me, too. They always end up dating me. :googly: That's always fun.

Like I said earlier, damaged guys don't shout and scream their anguish and baggage to the rooftops. They let it grow into shitty little tumors of resentment and mistrust within them and never really let you know until you figure it out yourself.

Exactly. In my experience, with the guys I've dated, it leads to them having certain expectations or assumptions about what "all girls" are like. Seeing as how I dont generally abide by the girly drama bullshit that many such girls do, it sometimes takes these guys a while to see that I'm not the same kind of crazy, neurotic, controlling, drama queen that they asume I will be :googly:

Damn those girls for making it hard for the rest of us - although sometimes its easier for me, cuz some guys are relieved to find that I'm not the way they assume girls are.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 12:51 PM

LaFille

10-30-2006, 12:52 PM

Exactly. In my experience, with the guys I've dated, it leads to them having certain expectations or assumptions about what "all girls" are like. Seeing as how I dont generally abide by the girly drama bullshit that many such girls do, it sometimes takes these guys a while to see that I'm not the same kind of crazy, neurotic, controlling, drama queen that they asume I will be :googly:

Damn those girls for making it hard for the rest of us - although sometimes its easier for me, cuz some guys are relieved to find that I'm not the way they assume girls are.

HA i was having this conversation the other day! i was telling some guy about this drama queen my friend was dating and how she was screaming and crying and causing a scene in public, and he rolls his eyes and goes 'all women are like that.' i almost wet my pants.

Winter Storm

10-30-2006, 12:57 PM

And I think it is that emotional trauma that makes men build up these huge impenetrable walls that also create these 'anti-relationship' attitudes that make it harder for us women who are just trying to get past those walls. While we are trying to get men to feel and open up and connect and respond emotionally, they are fighting it with everything they have. Their response is to shut down and flee.

Leaving many women dusting ourselves off wondering, 'what the hell happened?', 'did I scare him off?', 'will he ever call again?' 'should I even try again?'

The guard walls that men build up make it again harder for women.

CTGirl

10-30-2006, 12:57 PM

HA i was having this conversation the other day! i was telling some guy about this drama queen my friend was dating and how she was screaming and crying and causing a scene in public, and he rolls his eyes and goes 'all women are like that.' i almost wet my pants.

Ugh, I hear ya!

I went out with this guy a couple weeks ago, and we got to talking about strip clubs for some reason, and he told me that when he told his old gf that he had been to one once (before they were dating) and she freaked out and started sobbing! I was cracking up when he told me this, and still do when I think about it - I said to him "I think I'd be annoyed if my bf went to one and didnt bring me with him, but even then, there's no way I'd freak out like that" lol :googly:

weary

10-30-2006, 12:59 PM

Ugh, I hear ya!

I went out with this guy a couple weeks ago, and we got to talking about strip clubs for some reason, and he told me that when he told his old gf that he had been to one once (before they were dating) and she freaked out and started sobbing! I was cracking up when he told me this, and still do when I think about it - I said to him "I think I'd be annoyed if my bf went to one and didnt bring me with him, but even then, there's no way I'd freak out like that" lol :googly:

my girl!

ladies...you'd be amazed at how fun a date to the strip club w/ your man can be! SERIOUSLY!

CTGirl

10-30-2006, 01:03 PM

my girl!

ladies...you'd be amazed at how fun a date to the strip club w/ your man can be! SERIOUSLY!

I went to one on Friday for the first time, and found that I just love strippers (and they loved me too), lol, they're so fun! I was talking to my sister about it, and she's like "next time I talk to you, all your friends will be strippers, I just know it" lol!

Winter Storm

10-30-2006, 01:05 PM

I just get sick of finding myself in the position of paying for what some other chick did. I kind of wish more guys would be more openly angsty...the strong silent bullshit is annoying if, underneath, you're just letting misplaced resentment against womankind fester. I get tired of being the subconscious doppelganger for the scheming untrustworthy whore who hurt you.

This again supports my stance.

We've all been burned at least once, right? But it seems that once a man gets hurt, he holds on to the shit much harder, making it that much more diffucult to allow the next woman in. I've seen men get hurt one time; they swear off relationships from that point on.

Women get burned all the damn time yet we seem more resilient in bouncing back and embracing of love the next time around. We stay more open to the possibility, while men seem to close it off more.

I think someone said it best when they said women may have an easier time getting initial dates, but it is much harder to get into a full-fledged relationship and find love because fewer men (at our stage at least) are really ready, open and emotionally available for real love.

PenforPrez

10-30-2006, 01:12 PM

We've all been burned at least once, right? But it seems that once a man gets hurt, he holds on to the shit much harder, making it that much more diffucult to allow the next woman in. I've seen men get hurt one time; they swear off relationships from that point on.

Women get burned all the damn time yet we seem more resilient in bouncing back and embracing of love the next time around. We stay more open to the possibility, while men seem to close it off more.

Again, I am the opposite in this regard. I meet somebody I like, they show interest, they turn weird, I get burned, they call things off. Rinse. Repeat.

But I fall just as easily every time. I'm to the point I'm beginning to think I'm just a fool who trusts too easily.

Paul

Winter Storm

10-30-2006, 01:14 PM

But I fall just as easily every time. I'm to the point I'm beginning to think I'm just a fool who trusts too easily.

Paul

No, it means you're really a girl! Just kidding. It means you are one of the sweeter exceptions in my book, Paul.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 01:18 PM

I think someone said it best when they said women may have an easier time getting initial dates, but it is much harder to get into a full-fledged relationship and find love because fewer men (at our stage at least) are really ready, open and emotionally available for real love.

That would be me.

ladies...you'd be amazed at how fun a date to the strip club w/ your man can be! SERIOUSLY!

I believe this could be true...but sadly, the strip joints where I live are full of flophouse dwelling, Springer-panelist caliber, meth-mouth flaunting, STD-riddled skanks. Not exactly classy strip joints, but ones out on rural backroads. No thanks.

Kitty

10-30-2006, 01:19 PM

Oddly, I've always attracted to the type of guys who want to get into a serious relationship fairly early on. Also, in every relationship I've been in, I felt like I had typical "man" reactions to events in the relationship and that I typically play the "male" role in the development of the relationship. Plus, I tend to "wear the pants" in my relationships.

Also, I haven't dated in 4 years ..so I'm out of it.

PenforPrez

10-30-2006, 01:22 PM

No, it means you're really a girl!

Hand me my dress, would you sweety?? :huge: Do you have any Midol?? :p

Couldn't resist that. :redface:

It means you are one of the sweeter exceptions in my book, Paul.

Thank you. :redface: I always seem to run into the women who fit the male category, and I wonder if that's not half of the problem.

Paul

CTGirl

10-30-2006, 01:22 PM

I believe this could be true...but sadly, the strip joints where I live are full of flophouse dwelling, Springer-panelist caliber, meth-mouth flaunting, STD-riddled skanks. Not exactly classy strip joints, but ones out on rural backroads. No thanks.

The one I went to was a super classy place in Manhattan, so now I really wanna go to a super seedy place to see what that's like too, lol

Kitty

10-30-2006, 01:23 PM

I would be ok going to a strip club with someone I wasn't very serious with (in fact, I have!) but, I really can't imagine that with a guy I was really serious with...

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 01:24 PM

No, trust me, you don't. I drive by one daily, have known in the time I've been reporting, high school girls who graduate and then go on to that shit as a dead end, and end up meth-heads, and typically eventually wrapping their cars around trees and smearing their brains on the roadway at 4 a.m. drunk and high...it's depressing, and meth cookers are psychos. Seedy strip joints are just sad, sad places.

labrat2111

10-30-2006, 01:26 PM

Me, too. They always end up dating me. :googly: That's always fun.

Like I said earlier, damaged guys don't shout and scream their anguish and baggage to the rooftops. They let it grow into shitty little tumors of resentment and mistrust within them and never really let you know until you figure it out yourself.

I've known my share of damaged guys. I think some guys do hide it but most are okay with it. I don't like to let girls know they hurt me but at the same time I'm honest with friends about what went on and how I really felt about the whole deal. The only way to fix things is to admit what you did wrong and fix it.

I do know one guy who really carried it badly. He had been married and had kids and his wife cheated on him a lot. So after he got divorced he carried (and still does carry) big trust issues. It makes it really hard for him to date but it isn't surprising after what he went through.

However it is particularly interesting when two damaged people try and date. It is almost a given that things will be dysfunctional and sparks will fly.

PenforPrez

10-30-2006, 01:31 PM

Nothing like that near me at all. I'm surprised, really. I've never been to a strip club; probably would be too much excitement for dull me. :rolleyes: I never saw the point, really. You can't touch, why be that close to it?

I'm surprised how many women nowadays actually like to go to strip clubs. It seemed to me some other instinct would take over.

Paul

Kitty

10-30-2006, 01:32 PM

I went once just to see what it was like..and have absolutely no desire to go back.

weary

10-30-2006, 01:36 PM

I've known my share of damaged guys. I think some guys do hide it but most are okay with it. I don't like to let girls know they hurt me but at the same time I'm honest with friends about what went on and how I really felt about the whole deal. The only way to fix things is to admit what you did wrong and fix it.

I do know one guy who really carried it badly. He had been married and had kids and his wife cheated on him a lot. So after he got divorced he carried (and still does carry) big trust issues. It makes it really hard for him to date but it isn't surprising after what he went through.

However it is particularly interesting when two damaged people try and date. It is almost a given that things will be dysfunctional and sparks will fly.

you'd think so, but not always. i had a very good experience 'trying to date' a guy almost as damaged as me. oddly enough, it didn't work out b/c the attraction level wasn't strong enough/sustained and we had a couple of fundamental belief diffs...but there's were no big dysfunctional sparks. in fact, we had some pretty amazing convos b/c we were both "openly angst" (to use words' words). we were able to share experiences and viewpoints in a way i don't think many do. and no, it wasn't a pity party where we talked about having our hearts stomped on or other issues w/ past lovers...rather refreshing openness in convos about some dark things/feelings.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 01:37 PM

I also think that EVERYONE is damaged.

Kitty

10-30-2006, 01:37 PM

Sometimes two wrongs make a right.

PenforPrez

10-30-2006, 01:41 PM

I also think that EVERYONE is damaged.

Just like everyone has issues. :)

WorkInProgress

10-30-2006, 01:42 PM

I also think that EVERYONE is damaged.
Couldn't agree more.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 01:43 PM

Being human involves getting battered and bruised in the process. Everybody has issues.

dostoy

10-30-2006, 02:25 PM

Being human involves getting battered and bruised in the process. Everybody has issues.
Some people have the whole damn subscription.

Kitty

10-30-2006, 02:40 PM

Damn..I want to see the results of this poll - but I don't want to vote for men or women. I think it's equal.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 02:42 PM

60% say men, 40% say women. I didn't vote, either.

Kitty

10-30-2006, 02:43 PM

Thanks!

extraletters

stonemonkey

10-30-2006, 06:26 PM

Like I said earlier, damaged guys don't shout and scream their anguish and baggage to the rooftops. They let it grow into shitty little tumors of resentment and mistrust within them and never really let you know until you figure it out yourself.

Or they post about it on online messageboards.

stonemonkey

10-30-2006, 06:32 PM

And I think it is that emotional trauma that makes men build up these huge impenetrable walls that also create these 'anti-relationship' attitudes that make it harder for us women who are just trying to get past those walls.

I think alot of that has nothing to do with women, it's more just a guy thing. It's part of the 'real men don't complain' mentality. They just get on with it. Growing up, I never saw any male role models break down openly. Call it stupid if you must, but that's how it is, it's not like Clint Eastwood, or John Wayne, or Al Pacino were ever a mess emotionally.

Sometimes it seems like the only emotion a man is allowed to feel is anger.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 06:39 PM

Sometimes it seems like the only emotion a man is allowed to feel is anger.

I wonder what women are allowed to feel. If we're angry, we're bitches. If we're sad or hurt, we're overly emotional, or headcases.

stonemonkey

10-30-2006, 06:42 PM

Women get burned all the damn time yet we seem more resilient in bouncing back and embracing of love the next time around. We stay more open to the possibility, while men seem to close it off more.

I have to agree with you on that one, it's a case of once bitten, twice shy. The shittiness of having invested so much in someone, to have fallen for them (which, in a way, is really handing over alot of power to them) makes you want to not fall for the same mistake again.

Another thing is that some guys (or at least I do, anyway) think mechanically about it, in that we anticipate future experiences based on past ones. If I had a bad experience with a particular girl one time in my past, I'm not going to repeat the same mistakes again. Of course, everyone's different, so that kind of thinking really falls apart...

stonemonkey

10-30-2006, 06:42 PM

If we're sad or hurt, we're overly emotional, or headcases.

Well, that one applies to guys as well.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 06:43 PM

Yeah, but you get to be mad. We don't.

stonemonkey

10-30-2006, 06:47 PM

It's a pretty irrelevant point for me, anyway, because none of the girls I have known have ever expressed any desire for a guy to be more emotional. You've seen my posts, I've got way more angst than the average guy. I'm borderline emo.

wordsmith

10-30-2006, 06:50 PM

I can't say that I desire anybody to go apeshit on me or that I yearn for hiccupping crying jags from my man (or anybody). But I've known many a guy where it would have been such a relief to just have heard them say, "I'm scared," or "this hurt me," to be perfectly honest. The Iron Man thing gets painfully old, to tell the truth. Because it's bullshit. I'd rather see the cracks in the facade. It's more real. You don't have to sob at my feet. Just let me know that you do feel things.

ScottyTheBody

10-30-2006, 08:25 PM

Yeah, but you get to be mad. We don't.

One thing which women are allowed to show, compassion and empathy.

Where women get called bitches, men get called assholes, same thing.

lostindc

10-31-2006, 01:22 AM

(aside from this board where men on here act nothing like men I've met in real life, had to add that!)

So am I really that different in real life?

wordsmith

10-31-2006, 10:28 AM

I've never known men NOT to be allowed to show compassion and empathy. I kind of wish most I know would show considerably more.

ScottyTheBody

10-31-2006, 11:22 AM

I've never known men NOT to be allowed to show compassion and empathy. I kind of wish most I know would show considerably more.

I have heard of other men putting down someone because of empathy and compassion. They have been labeled as all emotiony and well what they refer to as a "p***y". I've also heard from some women putting down these things because they just aren't "manly" traits.

Are these the type of people that I usually hang around with? No, not really, but I have heard it before. Does this mean that I won't show or feel any empathy or compassion? Absolutely not, because that's just who I am.

My point is that we all have emotions and every single emotion be it angry, sensitive, depressed, whatever will NOT be allowed because they're looked upon poorly by someone. Both genders have "dos" and "don'ts" but you have to ignore that and just do what is right. You must not care what anyone thinks of you, feel whatever it is you feel and do whatever you think is right.

wordsmith

10-31-2006, 11:24 AM

ScottyTheBody

10-31-2006, 11:48 AM

I'm talking about with women. I could give a rat's ass if another guy calls you a p***y, if you don't show some empathy and compassion around me, I think you're a raving asshole and have no use for you.

But you see that's exactly my point, some women are attracted to this raving asshole behaviour (not you though).

Whatever, this discussion is stupid and I'm going to stick to my other post above and I'm not going to say anything else on this matter because it really doesn't matter at all.

stonemonkey

10-31-2006, 03:32 PM

I'm talking about with women. I could give a rat's ass if another guy calls you a p***y, if you don't show some empathy and compassion around me, I think you're a raving asshole and have no use for you.

No offence, but it's not all about you. If the only thing a guy had to consider was being emotional enough for you, then it'd be easy. But there are other factors to take into consideration, factors unrelated to you. Real life isn't so simple that it can be reduced to a single variable.

wordsmith

10-31-2006, 03:41 PM

Absolutely, in the grand scheme. But this is a dating thread. Not a "How does the world view me and it's so complicated" thread, but one specifically dealing with dating and what is and isn't appealing to potential dates, and the challenges therein.

stonemonkey

10-31-2006, 03:53 PM

ok, ok, but I don't think you can really separate the two. The issues in someone's general life are going to carry over into their dating life. But really, I was more just trying to explain that a guy's lack of display of emotion is not solely to do with bad experiences with women.

Dating-specific-wise, I just don't see how being emotional and whiny can be attractive. Note, however, that this is completely different to showing compassion, which can be attractive. You can be strong and show compassion, but you can't really be strong and bitch about things all the time.

wordsmith

10-31-2006, 03:56 PM

Showing human emotion does not equal whiny, but most guys think it does, and therein lies the perpetual, never-to-be-remedied disconnect.

stonemonkey

10-31-2006, 04:02 PM

Showing human emotion does not equal whiny, but most guys think it does, and therein lies the perpetual, never-to-be-remedied disconnect.

Yeah, pretty much. Either that or get paranoid about it coming across as sign of weakness, but yeah, I agree with you on that one.

LaFille

10-31-2006, 04:05 PM

Dating-specific-wise, I just don't see how being emotional and whiny can be attractive.
being whiney is not attractive, nor is it really an indicator of sensitivity. it just means someone likes to complain/constantly thinks he or she is being 'wronged.' being understanding, kind, a good listener, etc. is attractive.

cache

10-31-2006, 04:09 PM

If a man cries when his SO's dog dies, that is compassion. If he cries when his SO's sister gets married, that is whiny. (Unless he had something going with the sister, then the tears are OK...JK) :huge:

JMHO

vxmike

10-31-2006, 04:10 PM

Women have it harder in general dating wise.

When you add race, ethnicity to that it gets even worse for them.

Well this poll is almost pointless because the results will simply mirror the demographics of the people that voted. I don't think one person here has voiced that the opposite sex has it easier. I don't think we can even begin to comprehend the difficulties that each opposite gender faces.

I don't understand your comment on race/ethnicity though. Some races of women have it EASIER and some have it harder. Same with men.

vxmike

10-31-2006, 04:14 PM

I wonder how many people achieve their ideal job and ideal partner. I have one out of two which isn't too bad.

Same here. I have a great job/career and I've accepted that I will likely never have an ideal partner or one at all. I suppose I can live with one out of two.

It'll be interesting to see if we end up the lonely, old, creepy single guy or the "successful" older single guy everyone likes. Unfortunately I've seen most guys end up going the creepy route though.

stonemonkey

10-31-2006, 05:26 PM

being whiney is not attractive, nor is it really an indicator of sensitivity. it just means someone likes to complain/constantly thinks he or she is being 'wronged.' being understanding, kind, a good listener, etc. is attractive.

That's an important distinction, because if you just call it 'being emotional', then I assume that it means being whiny. I don't consider being understanding and kind as the same as being emotional. I consider that being understanding and kind.

stonemonkey

10-31-2006, 05:29 PM

It'll be interesting to see if we end up the lonely, old, creepy single guy or the "successful" older single guy everyone likes. Unfortunately I've seen most guys end up going the creepy route though.

I think guys start getting old and creepy if they lose social contact. Once they become so isolated that they lose touch with society, then they start getting weird. But if you're old and single but successful and have alot of friends, then that'd still be cool.

WorkInProgress

10-31-2006, 07:47 PM

Well this poll is almost pointless because the results will simply mirror the demographics of the people that voted. I don't think one person here has voiced that the opposite sex has it easier. I don't think we can even begin to comprehend the difficulties that each opposite gender faces.

I don't understand your comment on race/ethnicity though. Some races of women have it EASIER and some have it harder. Same with men.

I think a fair amount of people who vote that men and women both have it hard. Different, but neither really has it easy. But, that was not an option on the poll. I agree that the poll was not well set up.

wordsmith

10-31-2006, 07:51 PM

Yup. I still don't think anybody has it easy, men and women each have a very difficult time for typically very different reasons.

CTGirl

10-31-2006, 08:01 PM

Same here. I have a great job/career and I've accepted that I will likely never have an ideal partner or one at all. I suppose I can live with one out of two.

Well that's a very sad way to look at life :sad:

I plan to have both myself :huge:

wordsmith

10-31-2006, 08:08 PM

I don't expect anything to be ideal. Everything has flaws and downsides. Usually, though, you can find things and people with enough good to balance that inevitability out.

ScottyTheBody

10-31-2006, 08:18 PM

Well that's a very sad way to look at life :sad:

I plan to have both myself :huge:

It is sad but its much more practical. Its kind of like this:

Say your a kid and your parents tell you that your friend will likely come over tonight. You don't know when, but it will be tonight. So you get all excited and think about what your going to do with this said friend and plan out all these great things for you both to do. So it starts to get on later and you begin to kind of just wait around mostly just thinking, when is he coming over? Why isn't he here yet? Is he going to come over? Then you start to wonder and then get nervous and your thoughts are no longer about excitement about your friend coming over, but rather anger and impatience until you finally give up or you can't stop thinking about whether your friend will come over or not, until finally the said friend doesn't come. So rather than having a fun night, you were just kind of angsty the whole night. Your parents didn't lie to you, they just said your friend will probably come over.

The other option is to assume that your friend is not coming over. If he comes over, great, you'll do some fun stuff and everything will be great but if he doesn't come over you won't waste your energy thinking about your friend and wondering when he will come over. So instead of wondering if your friend will come over or not, you just assume he won't and just do whatever you'd do if you didn't hear he was coming over at all. You get a lot more done and having fun even if he didn't end up coming over.

Its more along the lines of assuming the worst and hoping for the best type of things.

vxmike

10-31-2006, 08:38 PM

Well that's a very sad way to look at life :sad:

I plan to have both myself :huge:

Well being realistic is a lot less painful - kind of what Scott described. If you expect or hope for something only to be constantly disappointed you're not going to be very happy. Lowered expectations can sometimes be a good thing if they're based on reality. I just choose to expend my energies and resources in other areas for success b/c history has shown it for me to be a better personal investment of effort.

wordsmith

10-31-2006, 08:40 PM

The other alternative is to simply accept that nothing's perfect, that nobody's perfect, but that things can still be pretty good, rather than consider that reality a crushing, devastating disappointment.

spiritedaway

10-31-2006, 08:54 PM

I haven't made up my mind it yet.

I have a pretty good job/career, but I wouldn't want my life to be just about career (no matter how career-driven I may be). There are ups and downs in career, just as there are in relationships.

Between the two, the career is probably the more stable of the two. At least you can use the money you make to help you do what you want.

I wouldn't want just one or the other, ideally, both would be good, but I do think it's harder to find an ideal (life) partner than an ideal job...

Same here. I have a great job/career and I've accepted that I will likely never have an ideal partner or one at all. I suppose I can live with one out of two.

It'll be interesting to see if we end up the lonely, old, creepy single guy or the "successful" older single guy everyone likes. Unfortunately I've seen most guys end up going the creepy route though.

wordsmith

10-31-2006, 08:56 PM

I wouldn't want just one or the other, ideally, both would be good, but I do think it's harder to find an ideal (life) partner than an ideal job...

Every job, even a job you love, sucks sometimes.

Every partner, even a partner you love, sucks sometimes.

ScottyTheBody

11-01-2006, 05:17 PM

I disagree. (anyone else who gets a Family Guy flashback any time you hear that phrase is my new best friend, lol)

I have seen lots of guys who are damaged by the relationships they've had with girls, or the lack thereof.

Crazy drive-by arguments.

Oh Reginald...I disagree!!!

CTGirl

11-01-2006, 05:56 PM

Crazy drive-by arguments.

Oh Reginald...I disagree!!!

YAY!!! Scotty you are the awesomest! :huge:

As for your "hope for the worst" argument, I can see where that is coming from, but given my educational background, I believe that is far more likely to end with a self-fulfilling prophecy than anything else. Life is what we make of it, and attitude/perspective is a huge part of that. If you go into things expecting to be let down, you probably will be.

Plus, Scott, if you're as awesome as you seem to be, I dont think you have anything to be worrying about.