Can women really have it all? [Archive]

SunDevil

11-11-2006, 12:32 AM

Can they have it all? The baby, job, relationship, friends... My Mom gave up the job after 2 years, it was the right decision for her. And I think it depends what their job is as to if they should try and keep it, or do something that allows them to lead a less stressful life. Working at a 9-5 job with a low salary and high stress wouldn't be good. Working as a yoga instructor (or something she enjoys) 3 times a day (12 noon, 6pm, 7pm classes) where the guy or parents can look after the baby while she works, would probably be just fine. You really have to think about slowing down and not leading the hectic lifestyle. The women still need to pay attention to the relationship and their friendships.

I'm not sure why recent mothers would want to work in the corporate environment to be honest. I'm a single guy and I don't always enjoy it. And there is more to life than just money and living the prefect lifestyle.

I wonder if their is a job site that lists baby-friendly jobs.

----------------
On a side note about the article:

Elizabeth Vargas has been gone from 20/20 for a while, but I agree with her choice to take the time off like she said in the article.

I would say that fathers should get some time off as well. But then you get into "Why can't a couple with no kids get time off to work and build their relationship?" or "Why can't a single person get time off to find a partner?" and "They keep having kids every 12 months just to get the time off", but in countries like Norway(I think), they get 12 month maternity leave, 3 months paternity leave.
------------------------

ma1939

11-11-2006, 04:52 AM

They already have it all.

winneythepooh7

11-11-2006, 08:50 AM

beeblebrox

11-11-2006, 08:57 AM

This is something that I think about when I just started my new job, have a relationship. My bf and I talk all the time about salaries, etc. I worry that my earning potential will decrease after having a kid, etc. It bothers me that I have to choose when I have children versus career. I really want to have it all, but worry that I won't be able to. Could be why I'm a little hesistant to get married in general.

In my company, they have adoption and paternity leaves.

inmediasres

11-11-2006, 08:58 AM

Working Mother Magazine does an annual listing of best places to work for career-oriented moms.

See http://www.workingmother.com/.

NewMrs.

11-11-2006, 09:07 AM

Maybe I'm just a Slacker (I was, after all, born at the tail end of Gen-X), but I have no desire to have it all.

EmberMae

11-11-2006, 09:18 AM

winneythepooh7

11-11-2006, 09:27 AM

All people are different. There are people who really thrive on busyness and being constantly doing one thing or another, people who wouldn't just sit down and relax even if they could. These kinds of people, might be fine with working and having small children. Unfortunately, I am not one of those people. I need time to relax. When I come home from spending 9 hours in the office, and 2 hours in my car, I'm tired. I can't see myself having the time or energy to care for a child. I really don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know if staying at home will ever be an option, financially. And it's not like I want to stay at home full time, I wish I could work part time but child care costs being what they are that really wouldn't accomplish anything.

My thoughts exactly. I've had people tell me to "do the math". If ALL my paychecks are going to be going towards childcare, then yes, staying home is a better option. My job is a really relaxed atmosphere for the most part, and IMO, most of the work can be done at home if need be (just need email and a phone and clients often are flexible when I can see them) but I still don't really trust employers (especially in my field) to be supportive. When it comes down to it, I still work for a "for profit" agency and they are going to be concerned period that my "performance" is going to change, which translates into "costing the agency $$$". This was mentioned on the show last night: this is usually a myth about mothers. In fact, their performance remains the same after having kids, studies have showed. If you want my opinion, a lot of the GUYS without children where I have worked have had a harder time getting their shit together. And a lot of GUYS have the most excuses about why their performance is seriously lacking. Again, these are not males with children, either.

cheshrcarol

11-11-2006, 10:51 AM

Growing up, my mom always worked. When I asked her about it once she said that we never would've been able to afford as nice of a house or vacations or clothes, etc if she didn't. And I don't really remember ever being that upset about it, except in elementary school when I couldn't join the after school programs (like drama club) because you had to be picked up earlier than my parents got out of work.

But, both my parents have always had jobs with the federal government. No 60 hour weeks, lots of vacation time, no bringing work home.

I've wondered occasionally what choice I'll make for myself. I don't see myself being happy with totally giving up a career, and I also think it odd that people go through so much to have children, and then when the baby's 3 months old they put them in day care and see them on evenings and weekends. My ideal would be if I could work part of the time from home and my non-existent husband too. I'm not big on traditional "mom" roles where she takes care of the kids and cooks and cleans and the man just "provides". Hell, if I'm helping to provide for the family, the dad can help with the kids and all the other stuff. Besides, anyone who's seen my apartment won't want to leave the cleaning to me ;).

pisces2473

11-11-2006, 12:18 PM

I saw it. Good segment. Most of us if we choose to have a kid(s) will end up juggling it all probably. There's not a whole lot of choice IMO in today's society. Not that many people have the luxury of staying home to parent. And some females actually enjoy work too and want to be there. And the cost of childcare is insane.
I wonder if Shimma saw it...I almost called her to tell her to watch.

Did anyone find it odd that the fathers were not mentioned at all? I know one of the women is a divorcee, but the other two--no mention of a husband. I wonder how much they do to help the family.

I think it's a huge toss up and a few of you have already said how I feel, so I'll just cut and paste:
If ALL my paychecks are going to be going towards childcare, then yes, staying home is a better option.
I don't see myself being happy with totally giving up a career, and I also think it odd that people go through so much to have children, and then when the baby's 3 months old they put them in day care and see them on evenings and weekends. My ideal would be if I could work part of the time from home and my non-existent husband too.
I need time to relax. When I come home from spending 9 hours in the office, and 2 hours in my car, I'm tired. I can't see myself having the time or energy to care for a child. I really don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know if staying at home will ever be an option, financially. And it's not like I want to stay at home full time, I wish I could work part time but child care costs being what they are that really wouldn't accomplish anything.

I don't think I would have a huge problem staying home (just in my own mind), I think I'd find plenty of things to do...but the financial stuff worries me more than anything else, including thoughts of "Have I let myself down because I'm not using my education?"

winneythepooh7

11-11-2006, 12:48 PM

I don't think I would have a huge problem staying home (just in my own mind), I think I'd find plenty of things to do...but the financial stuff worries me more than anything else, including thoughts of "Have I let myself down because I'm not using my education?"

I agree. My mom also stayed home for a few years with both my sister and I. Luckily, we had access to grandparents and close friends for childcare. On a positive, I do have an education in human services so I am sure I could find something in terms of work, even if it's odd hours. I may have to consider working in a hospital or something like that (not that that's something I really want to do but that's another thread). I enjoy what I do now but I know that if the time comes, I could potentially have to give up my current job. Especially if trekking into Manhattan everyday is still gonna have to be an option.

TinyDancer

11-11-2006, 01:06 PM

I wish that I would have seen this segment on 20/20. I think about this a lot. My parents worked crazy jobs, and my mom went back to school while working full-time. It really sucked sometimes for us and had to have REALLY sucked for her. . . working all day, then driving to night school a few nights a week. . . and the other nights going to our basketball games and activities. The thing is, it made the time she spent with me alone all the more special and brought me a lot closer to my dad. Also, she has always been such a great role model for me, and I remember tearing up as she walked across the stage to get her degree. While there are definitely some sacrifices, it's a pretty cool thing to see your mom kick ass and graduate, get promotions, etc. I think it's part of why I am the way I am today.

Like it or not, a consideration that I do think about is money. I do very well for someone my age. It may sound silly, but it would be difficult for me to give up that income. . . Many of my colleagues that are married make more than their spouses. A few of the couples have already decided that the guys will stay home with the kids.

Seeing as I have also have a non-existent spouse and kids. . . it's difficult saying what exactly I would do. It will definitely depend on the circumstances at the time because there are so many factors that come into play. What are the daycare options in your area? Do you have family nearby? Do your children have special needs? What is the cost of living in your area? What's your husband's income? Will your job be flexible enough? etc., etc., etc.

winneythepooh7

11-11-2006, 01:10 PM

. . . it's difficult saying what exactly I would do. It will definitely depend on the circumstances at the time because there are so many factors that come into play. What are the daycare options in your area? Do you have family nearby? Do your children have special needs? What is the cost of living in your area? What's your husband's income? Will your job be flexible enough? etc., etc., etc.

These are all very important things, and I also am not sure what I will do. It's important to think about though at this stage in my life. I'm not getting any younger and we are getting married next year. Hopefully like everything else in my life that has fallen into place, I hope if I ever face this, things will fall into place as well.

wordsmith

11-11-2006, 01:22 PM

I don't think anybody can have it all. When you're splitting very important priorities that way (raising kids, supporting them and yourselves financially), you will always have to compromise on something, lots of things, on both sides. Working is full-time thing, raising kids is a full-time thing. If you're doing both, you WILL inevitably have times when you fuck up and shortchange in both. Nobody juggles without dropping balls.

capella

11-11-2006, 02:27 PM

I think about this topic all the time. It's one of the primary reasons I want to up and move to Texas. We even made a pros and cons list of each place. Texas won handily.

Here, we're stuck in the town we live in since we can't afford to move. Our income is basically stagnant and not likely to change enough in the coming years to make it worth the wait. We have debt to pay down before we can even realistically think of having kids and not having a major financial struggle. Even when we do get all the debt paid off (a good 5 years from now the way things are going) the income thing won't let me stay home. I will pay at least half of my pay to daycare just so I can go raise other people's kids. This town sucks and I don't want to raise kids here. And on and on and on.

I am hoping that we can live on around 43K a year in DFW. It would be closer to 86K a year until we are ready to have a family, which means we could easily pay off our debts and get a nicer, less expensive house.

Then I think we could afford for me to stay home for at least the first two years. That's all I really want. I want to stay home while they are babies. When the kids (hopefully 2) are potty trained, I wouldn't mind having them at day care for a little while and then they'd be in school anyhow (and I work school hours so...). Hopefully by then I would have a handle on my job and the grade level and not work such crazy hours. This is the goal anyhow.

I do think Jess is right though. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I think it's finding the balance that is acceptable to you that is key.

Kitty

11-11-2006, 03:24 PM

wordsmith

11-11-2006, 03:34 PM

My mom used to be a nanny for this family where the mom literally worked from 7 in the morning until about 11 at night. Even when she got home, she'd be in her home office doing work. Both of the kids saw my mom as their mom and would even say things like, "If my mom dies, will you be our mom?" and "Can we come live with you?"

Seriously..what is the point of having kids if you are NEVER there and your kids love your nanny more than you.

When my mom did daycare, there were kids dropped off at 6 a.m., picked up at 6 p.m., from as soon after birth as they were approved (I think the limite of her center was that they had to be at least 8 weeks old). There were so many babies and little kids that would cry with separation anxiety when they'd have to leave the daycare providers and go spend their couple of hours with the parents.

CityGal

11-11-2006, 03:53 PM

God i hope i can have it all. Why is this question always 'can women have it all'? Why not can men? Men struggle as well....why are they not focused on.

Kitty

11-11-2006, 03:55 PM

God i hope i can have it all. Why is this question always 'can women have it all'? Why not can men? Men struggle as well....why are they not focused on.

Because that's how our society is. There's still more stay at home moms than stay at home dads. Also, women do typically take on more of the household, childcare type of duties in general.

wordsmith

11-11-2006, 04:17 PM

That's why I put that nobody who is juggling raising a family full time and working full time can have it all. Male or female.

WorkInProgress

11-11-2006, 06:46 PM

That's why I put that nobody who is juggling raising a family full time and working full time can have it all. Male or female.

Yeah, I tend to agree. But I think that's well documented in a lot of my posts on the topic.

Winter Storm

11-11-2006, 07:56 PM

This article pissed me off. I hate the attitudes that some companies would prefer not to hire mothers because they will put family matters first. Seriously, is business so important that we should forgo having a family and personal life for it?

And why weren't fathers mentionad at all? Apparently fathers have no problems juggling family cand careers? Nor does it ever affect their professional lives? If that were true, then that is saying that parenting really lies strictly on the mother's shoulders and where that may be true in many cases, in many it isn't.

I just hate to see working mothers villianized so much to deem them unhirable or as a burden to the working world.

Can anyone have it all, probably not.

wordsmith

11-11-2006, 07:59 PM

I think that working women who have children ARE looked down on by many. I've seen plenty of posts on this board alone about people who dislike that coworkers who are mothers of children may get special consideration given to their schedules as such (i.e. extra time off if li'l so and so is sick or gets sick at school and needs to be picked up, not having to work certain non-family friendly hourse that others are expected to work, etc.), when the childless will not.

Kitty

11-11-2006, 08:11 PM

It can be really annoying when coworkers who have kids get out of things becuase they have kids. For example, there was this woman at my work who would constantly work from home, leave early, come in late, leave at random times throughout the day, etc. Her reasons were ALWAYS related to her kid - she needed to pick her kid up, her kid was sick, her nanny was sick, etc. As her coworker, it REALLY started to suck becuase I had to take over a lot of her work and my own work suffered because she was never around to help move projects along. I don't think it's fair and I do think that a lot of people (both men and women) use kid-related excuses to get out of things and that's why employers are hesitant.

wordsmith

11-11-2006, 08:22 PM

And why weren't fathers mentionad at all? Apparently fathers have no problems juggling family cand careers? Nor does it ever affect their professional lives? If that were true, then that is saying that parenting really lies strictly on the mother's shoulders and where that may be true in many cases, in many it isn't.

I think that the amount of time that fathers put into parenting is traditionally lower, in general, than the amount of time mothers do. I won't presume to speak for the quality of the parenting, I'm sure there are fathers who do a fantastic job in the time they spend with their kids...it's just that traditionally, it's LESS time than the moms do, because they aren't under the same pressures as mothers are to juggle work and childrearing QUITE so EVENLY. I would bet that's probably still the case more often than not. But I have no data to support this, it's just my own speculation.

diesel

11-12-2006, 09:27 AM

GoogleGirl

11-12-2006, 10:45 AM

I think that the amount of time that fathers put into parenting is traditionally lower, in general, than the amount of time mothers do. I won't presume to speak for the quality of the parenting, I'm sure there are fathers who do a fantastic job in the time they spend with their kids...it's just that traditionally, it's LESS time than the moms do, because they aren't under the same pressures as mothers are to juggle work and childrearing QUITE so EVENLY. I would bet that's probably still the case more often than not. But I have no data to support this, it's just my own speculation.

I have the personal experience to back you up on that one words. My dad traveled all the time when I was growing up. I never felt like my parents were ever "together" because my mom took all the grunt work of raising me and my brother. My dad would stay at home with us pretty much only when my mom had to go out of town or something. So yes...IMO, *many* (not trying to make a blanket statement here) men spend less time with their kids than women do.

red

11-12-2006, 11:34 AM

I just hate to see working mothers villianized so much to deem them unhirable or as a burden to the working world.

the other side of the coin is that when mothers do work they are often judged (oh she should stay home with her kids since they can afford it, she has to leave work all of the time early and it's not fair, she works too many hours, she takes work home, she leaves the kids in daycare for 12 hours a day) when i am sure in many cases those mothers don't have a lot of other options. or even if they do, who am i to judge someone else's priorities?

i think that motherhood is in some ways a very public thing, a role that subjects you to a lot of scrutiny. i don't think that's necessarily fair or productive. i have a friend who is a single mom- her husband flaked out and now she is raising her son alone. who am i to judge her choices? i have another friend who i having a second child that she can't really afford and her parents are giving her shit for having her son in daycare, but she can't even afford to stay home with one child, much less with the added expense of a second.

it's a catch-22. you just can't win in the eyes of society no matter what you do.

pisces2473

11-12-2006, 11:52 AM

God i hope i can have it all. Why is this question always 'can women have it all'? Why not can men? Men struggle as well....why are they not focused on.
Men don't have to change their lifestyles in order to get pregnant (giving up tobacco, caffeine, alcohol, lots of fats and preservatives, etc), because you shouldn't get pregnant and THEN give it up, IMHO. If you can't get pregnant the old fashioned way, most of the time, women have to take hormones, track their temps, and the rest. When there finally is a pregnancy, women have to carry it to term, and deal with the backaches, peeing every few hours, heartburn, morning (afternoon and evening) sickness, and then they have to deliver the child and stay home to recuperate from giving birth. If a woman decides to breast feed, the father can't do that either.

And that's just the beginning...

pisces2473

11-12-2006, 11:55 AM

I do think Jess is right though. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I think it's finding the balance that is acceptable to you that is key.
I agree. My mom stayed home with us, but my parents went without a lot of things (vacations, new stuff, etc) in order for them to make it on my dad's pay. Unfortunately, these days, it's hard for a couple to even live frugally on one salary, at least where I live. Unless one partner makes about 75K and up.

Amy, I liked your "plan"--staying home until they are potty trained, then going back to work. I would hope to be able to work part time at first, but if it's not possible, then what are you gonna do?

pisces2473

11-12-2006, 12:05 PM

I watched the segment on 20/20 because right now this topic is extremely personal to me. In my situation I'm the breadwinner in our family. My husband stays home with our nine month old while I work. I'm lucky enough to work at a school so at least my hours aren't terrible, but I still feel the pressure of being a working mom. When I'm at work I feel a lot of guilt for not being the one home with my child. And I know my husband feels guilty often for not being the one to provide for us. We stuggle - I mean we're trying to live on a teacher's salary. Yet even if my husband did find work I'd still feel like I should continue to work also. You never know when a budget cut is going to cost you your job - male or female - corporate or not.
Did you guys decide this before your daughter was born? Or did circumstances change what you were going to do? Meaning, did your husband lose his job and it just made sense for him to stay home, or do you make more than he does so his salary would go to day care and nothing else? I'm just curious, that's all :)

I know you don't like not being home with your baby, but I think it's great that your husband is home with her! I would always hope that if I couldn't watch my babies, a family member would do it.

As for dumping work on coworkers - when I went on maternity I demanded they hire a sub for me. As a counselor this usually isn't done and I had picked up the slack the year before when my coworker was out on leave. It made things better for everyone to have a sub there. Now that I'm at work I try not to abuse the ability to say "my kid's sick so I have to be home." I really think this boils down to a personal work ethic more than anything else. I rarely took time off before I had my daughter - it's not much different now. My coworker used to take off early, not come in, come in late all the time and it's worse now that she has a child. I'm sure some people do get worse once there is a kid involved, but from my experience I have to wonder how they were before the kid was there.
Oh, that's good that you made them get a sub, especially since you went through a similar experience before. Also good that there are 2 counselors at your school--at my mom's school, the school social worker (it's an elementary school so they don't really have counselors) had a baby and b/c she was the only one, they had to get a sub. It was crazy though.

Anyway, does your coworker have a spouse at home with the baby? That might also have something to do with it. At least if your daughter is sick, you know that she's being watched by someone who loves her as much as you do, and it's not like a daycare where it's "sick child = no daycare" and then you'd have to take a day off.

This is kind of rambling, but I wanted to share my experience since I'm living this at the moment. I know there are other moms on the board who work. And I agree with wordsmith - no one can have it all - male or female.
I'm really glad you popped in with your comments! Thank you. :)

diesel

11-12-2006, 07:04 PM

Did you guys decide this before your daughter was born? Or did circumstances change what you were going to do? Meaning, did your husband lose his job and it just made sense for him to stay home, or do you make more than he does so his salary would go to day care and nothing else? I'm just curious, that's all :)

I know you don't like not being home with your baby, but I think it's great that your husband is home with her! I would always hope that if I couldn't watch my babies, a family member would do it.

Oh, that's good that you made them get a sub, especially since you went through a similar experience before. Also good that there are 2 counselors at your school--at my mom's school, the school social worker (it's an elementary school so they don't really have counselors) had a baby and b/c she was the only one, they had to get a sub. It was crazy though.

Anyway, does your coworker have a spouse at home with the baby? That might also have something to do with it. At least if your daughter is sick, you know that she's being watched by someone who loves her as much as you do, and it's not like a daycare where it's "sick child = no daycare" and then you'd have to take a day off.

I'm really glad you popped in with your comments! Thank you. :)

My husband had been laid off a few months before we found out I was pregnant. He looked for work, even interviewed at a couple of places while I was on leave, but nothing panned out so he's at home. We were leaning in that direction for most of my pregnancy. And even if he had found something I would've continued to work. You're right though - it easier for me in a way because I know she's home with daddy. With the coworker I mentioned her daughter is in daycare, but she's been known to play the kid card even when that's not why she leaves early/comes in late. The main point I was trying to make was just that for some people they don't care if their responsiblity falls on someone else when they're not there - kids or not. We have a single teacher at school who often sneaks in late. It causes the teachers who cover for her great annoyance too and administration knows she does it, but nothing is done about it. I just think people who do their jobs and are conscientious about being there, on time, and getting things done are always going to be annoyed with those who don't work to the same standards - moms or not.

pisces2473

11-12-2006, 07:36 PM

My husband had been laid off a few months before we found out I was pregnant. He looked for work, even interviewed at a couple of places while I was on leave, but nothing panned out so he's at home. We were leaning in that direction for most of my pregnancy. And even if he had found something I would've continued to work. You're right though - it easier for me in a way because I know she's home with daddy. With the coworker I mentioned her daughter is in daycare, but she's been known to play the kid card even when that's not why she leaves early/comes in late. The main point I was trying to make was just that for some people they don't care if their responsiblity falls on someone else when they're not there - kids or not. We have a single teacher at school who often sneaks in late. It causes the teachers who cover for her great annoyance too and administration knows she does it, but nothing is done about it. I just think people who do their jobs and are conscientious about being there, on time, and getting things done are always going to be annoyed with those who don't work to the same standards - moms or not.
Haha, I think there are people like your sneaking in late coworker at EVERY job. I think it's just more of an annoyance for teachers, since there are approx. 20 little people waiting for them and someone has to cover.

sparky88

11-12-2006, 08:47 PM

pisces2473

11-12-2006, 09:04 PM

I am married with no kids. The idea of having kids and a full-time career is just insane to me--it deeply saddens me that anyone has to face this choice.

My grandpa (80 yrs old) worked his way up the corporate ladder at GE. He was the breadwinner for his wife and 4 kids. When people ask my grandma why she didn't have a career in addition to raising 4 kids he ALWAYS pipes up and says "your grandmother may not have gone into work everyday, but she worked harder than I ever did raising our kids and keeping house than I did in all my years at GE."

I don't think women can have it all. Kids aren't suddenly raised when they're potty trained, or when they hit school age. There is still a lot to do,--and most mothers I've talked to say the busiest time in their motherhood was when their kids hit middle school.
No one is saying that kids are raised when they are potty trained or when they go to school. But some of us cannot afford to stay at home with our kids. MOST people in this country do not have a choice when it comes to staying home with the kids--they simply can't afford it. Many people make HUGE sacrifices to stay home when their children are very little but cannot continue to do so. As children grow, so do expenses.

Your view sounds very close-minded. Could you afford to stay home with the kids if you had to? I notice you mention your grandparents...but what about your parents? Did they both work?

Winter Storm

11-12-2006, 09:21 PM

I don't think women can have it all. Kids aren't suddenly raised when they're potty trained, or when they hit school age. There is still a lot to do,--and most mothers I've talked to say the busiest time in their motherhood was when their kids hit middle school.

You know, I understand that some people feel that it is better for moms to stay home withkids, fine, you do that, but some people actually like to work and enjoy having a career outside of the home, I don't think they should be punished or frowned upon because they also choose to have children.

And can you imagine what it would be like if suddenly all mothers decided to stop working and stay home with children? We would set ourselves back decades as far as being seen as valuable assets in the working world, making it that much harder to get back in and progress further. I mean, there was a time when people thought a woman's place was in the home and women fought hard to gain their independence and earn their own.

I think the best thing is for corporations to create better programs and systems for all parents to lighten the load; build on-site day-care, longer maternity leave, more options to work from home, etc.

sasha83

11-12-2006, 09:36 PM

This weighs so heavily on my mind. I'm planning on marrying and having children with my boyfriend in a few years. I don't mind being a stay-at-home mom, but there's a lot of growth we personally have to do first before we even have the wedding and the kids. It makes me wonder if it will ever happen. But I do know that if there are kids, I'm not working any more than part-time. My mom is a stay-at-home mom, which was the plan all along. But my dad is a stay-at-home dad, not by his choosing. (He's unemployed and can't work.) I just hope I don't have THAT kind of situation.

sparky88

11-12-2006, 09:59 PM

No one is saying that kids are raised when they are potty trained or when they go to school. But some of us cannot afford to stay at home with our kids. MOST people in this country do not have a choice when it comes to staying home with the kids--they simply can't afford it. Many people make HUGE sacrifices to stay home when their children are very little but cannot continue to do so. As children grow, so do expenses.

Your view sounds very close-minded. Could you afford to stay home with the kids if you had to? I notice you mention your grandparents...but what about your parents? Did they both work?

I GET that most couples can't have a spouse stay at home due to financial obligations. I was expressing empathy for those couples because being a parent is already a full-time job, and balancing a full-time career on top of that would be an insane amount of work. I am not putting down their decision to be working mothers. I gave the example of my grandparents to illustrate that being a stay at home mom is a full-time job. Thefefore, I believe that it is hard to "have it all".

It seems like you are almost resentful at the suggestion of women who have the opportunity to make the decision to stay at home. Which again highlights the fact that women can't have it all. Either way someone in society is judging them. I think everyone should do whatever is best for their familly, whether it's work or stay at home.

I don't have kids, and I don't know what my situation will be at the time I have kids (5+ yrs). My dad worked FT, my mom worked FT as a teacher after her 3 kids hit 8th grade.

sparky88

11-12-2006, 10:06 PM

You know, I understand that some people feel that it is better for moms to stay home withkids, fine, you do that, but some people actually like to work and enjoy having a career outside of the home, I don't think they should be punished or frowned upon because they also choose to have children.

And can you imagine what it would be like if suddenly all mothers decided to stop working and stay home with children? We would set ourselves back decades as far as being seen as valuable assets in the working world, making it that much harder to get back in and progress further. I mean, there was a time when people thought a woman's place was in the home and women fought hard to gain their independence and earn their own.

I think the best thing is for corporations to create better programs and systems for all parents to lighten the load; build on-site day-care, longer maternity leave, more options to work from home, etc.

I was not suggesting that all mothers should decide to stop working. Obviously, that would set things back. I have a good understanding of history and that women have fought hard to gain their independence, that's great. I'm not suggesting that women leave the workforce. I agree that it would be nice for corporations to create better programs for working women, because right now many women ARE struggling with having it all.

Again, you also sound resentful of stay at home moms. I think that this is a hot topic that obviously upsets people on both ends of the spectrum because nobody is free from judgement.

I think that couples need to do whatever is best for their situation, whether it's working inside or outside of the home.

Winter Storm

11-12-2006, 10:20 PM

Again, you also sound resentful of stay at home moms. I think that this is a hot topic that obviously upsets people on both ends of the spectrum because nobody is free from judgement.

No, I'm not resentful of stay at home moms. What I don't like are statements that presume to know that is best for everybody else and that is not specifically directed at you but on this topic generally. The working mother is frowned upon regardless.

Where I grew up EVERYBODYS mom worked. I never even heard of a stay-at-home mom til I was much older, so it was pretty foreign to me. I just don't agree with the idea that a mother needs to be home and not working to be a completely good mother.

It also pisses me off that this subject never seems to affect dads. Dads usually continue to work full-time, yet no one ever wags a finger at their parenting. I guess cause they aren't expected to parent as much and that is just sad and pathetic.

pisces2473

11-12-2006, 10:37 PM

I think that couples need to do whatever is best for their situation, whether it's working inside or outside of the home.
I do agree with that. The only people who know what's best are the parents/couple.

I'm not really resentful...especially because I'm not at the point where I need to make a decision about staying home/working.

I would like to be able to stay home, but it might not be feasible. So that fact, yes, I do get upset about. My FI and I were talking about it this weekend--do we really want kids if we only see them nights and weekends? If we have to work SO hard to support them that we never get to raise and nurture them? I'm only a bit resentful because women are told they can have it all, but only a small percentage can have it "all"--the "all" being exactly what they want, whether it's staying home with the spouse making enough money to support the family or a career mom with tons of household help and childcare to keep things running smoothly.

I'm sure there are a lot of working moms out there who'd love to stay home, but can't afford to. So they don't get it all. Looking at the picture that way, are we really any better off in today's world than we were 50, 100 years ago? In some ways yes, some ways no.

Then I think about things in a different way. My friend is my age (almost 27) and is a stay at home mom to an 18 month old. She's stayed home since she was about 5 or 6 months pregnant (for several reasons) but her husband is a lawyer who works 12+ hour days. Sure, she gets to stay home with her baby but she doesn't see her husband as much as she'd like. So while I think "Oh she has it great," I have to dig a little deeper and see that she doesn't have it as good as it might look. While I might envy her situation--staying home, nice house and car, she might see my situation--being able to see my FI every night, the both of us not bringing home work at night and weekends, and be extremely envious of me, even though we rent and my car is a POS.

The grass seems to be greener on the other side, then you get there and it's just the way the sun hit it.

ETA: Oh, my mom stopped working around 6 months of being pregnant with me because of her blood pressure (she was/is a nurse) and didn't go back until I was in 4th grade, and that was part time. She didn't work full time until I was a senior in HS. So I know what it's like to have a parent home with me after school, to drive me to friends' houses, to take me to ballet, etc. Luckily when she went back to work, she worked/works in a school system, so she had similar hours as my brother and I did. But as I've said earlier in this thread, there was a LOT my parents did without. They were fortunate to own their home outright--if they had a mortgage, my mom would have had to work. There would have been no way around it. So my parents lucked out in some respects.

pisces2473

11-12-2006, 10:43 PM

I just don't agree with the idea that a mother needs to be home and not working to be a completely good mother.
I agree. My aunt works over full time (she's a senior mgr for a major corporation) and is a great mom. Some moms can do that--she definitely thrives on the chaotic. My mom, her sister, is the complete opposite.

I think a lot of this pressure comes from within. I know I constantly think about what I'll do, how my future husband and I will do it, can we do it, etc. MOST mothers want to be good mothers and they have to fight the battle internally about what's best for themselves and their families. External pressure (from family, from society, etc) doesn't help.

winneythepooh7

11-13-2006, 07:02 AM

I've also HEARD people say "Oh they must have it really good financially if she can stay home with the kids", which is not necessarily true as has been pointed out. I think as a woman, you give up a lot if you decide to have kids. I enjoy working and have worked hard to get where I am today in my career. I know that I might have to give that up if I have a baby. I also know that we depend on my income right now. My SO already works pretty hard, at a job that yeah, makes okay money, but is physicallly draining. Not only that but he doesn' have health insurance. He also often is broke because he is waiting for jobs to be finished before he can get paid. He also works extremely long hours which already can be pretty stressful on our relationship. I think it would be really difficult for us if we brought a baby into the picture.

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 09:08 AM

I've also HEARD people say "Oh they must have it really good financially if she can stay home with the kids", which is not necessarily true as has been pointed out.
My mom heard that a lot. Little did people know that I qualified for free milk in kindergarten (my parents' never took advantage of that and I didn't know it until I was in HS) and I wore hand-me-downs for a long time. I don't remember lacking for anything, but I know now that my parents went without, as I've said several times on this thread, haha. But that's another thing--since my mom didn't work, she didn't need "work" type clothes. She could wear jeans and old shirts.

The only reason my parents didn't have a mortgage was because the land that they built their house on was a wedding gift from my grandparents, and my dad had saved up money for years for the building costs and materials, not to mention that my family owns a lumber business, so there's immediate savings. Some gifts have strings attached, and my grandparents never let my parents forget where they got the land from. So that was its own nightmare.

WorkInProgress

11-13-2006, 09:25 AM

I've also HEARD people say "Oh they must have it really good financially if she can stay home with the kids", which is not necessarily true as has been pointed out.

Put me down as another voice in this column. My parents were poor when I was little. And, actually, they weren't that well off even when I was in middle school.

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 09:28 AM

Put me down as another voice in this column. My parents were poor when I was little. And, actually, they weren't that well off even when I was in middle school.
Yup, same with me. Things didn't get better until high school when my mom was subbing more and then finally got her own school. Hmmm, I wonder why? haha

wordsmith

11-13-2006, 09:35 AM

Seriously. Most people who DID grow up in a home with a parent who stayed home grew up with major sacrifices being made to allow that to happen. My mom stayed home until her youngest was middle school aged, the sacrifice was living on one modest income instead of two. So, yeah, rarely new clothes, NEVER vacations we had to pay for (versus visiting family/friends were lodging accommodations were free), always driving beater cars, a lot of doing without perks many people had as a given.

What winney said:

My SO already works pretty hard, at a job that yeah, makes okay money, but is physicallly draining. Not only that but he doesn' have health insurance. He also often is broke because he is waiting for jobs to be finished before he can get paid. He also works extremely long hours which already can be pretty stressful on our relationship. I think it would be really difficult for us if we brought a baby into the picture.

applies to my dad, to a tee (same line of work), and my parents had three eventually four, babies in the picture. That means you do without if you want somebody home with the kids.

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 09:39 AM

Seriously. Most people who DID grow up in a home with a parent who stayed home grew up with major sacrifices being made to allow that to happen. My mom stayed home until her youngest was middle school aged, the sacrifice was living on one modest income instead of two. So, yeah, rarely new clothes, NEVER vacations we had to pay for (versus visiting family/friends were lodging accommodations were free), always driving beater cars, a lot of doing without perks many people had as a given.
Most of the time, it is money that you do without. But like my earlier example, with my friend, there's also time without your spouse as a family. Not saying that if both parents work, you don't see the entire family together often, but when one parent works, they often work longer/harder to make sure that they can bring in enough money to support everyone. My dad was like that when my brother and I were really little. He worked so hard because he was running the family business and because my mom was home with us.

wordsmith

11-13-2006, 09:43 AM

Definitely. Due to my dad's line of work, that meant lots of long hours and weekends to finish construction jobs in order to get paid as quickly as possible. And spending Saturdays running around to lumberyards gathering building materials, going and doing estimates for people, etc., so working even when he was off the clock, so to speak. Which meant that we DIDN'T see him a lot growing up (and also why if I wanted to spend time with my dad as a kid, it was spent driving to lumberyards and building supply stores in his truck on Saturday mornings, and going to potential job sites with him while he took measurements for estimates). My mom didn't/doesn't get to see him much, either. You def. sacrifice things other than money when you're living on one income.

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 09:48 AM

Ohhhhh yes, same thing w/ the weekends, only we would go look at woodlots or someone's pile of logs that they didn't want anymore. Or heavy machinery. Lots of time riding around CT's backwoods areas.

This is an interesting issue...if both parents work, they don't see each other OR the kids much. If one parent works, they still don't get to see each other really...so is it much different?

I do know that my mom would get up early with my dad, they'd have coffee together and talk before we'd get up. So they had pockets of time to spend together, also because my mom wasn't rushing to get herself ready for work. My friend (from above) will stay up late to talk with her husband when he gets home. Luckily, he has a new job now where he can make it home for dinner most nights. But still, he has to do work from home, too.

WorkInProgress

11-13-2006, 10:01 AM

My parents still haven't ever gone on a real vacation. Not a honeymoon, nothing. They're taking their first one later this year, for their anniversary.

WorkInProgress

11-13-2006, 10:03 AM

I do know that my mom would get up early with my dad, they'd have coffee together and talk before we'd get up. So they had pockets of time to spend together, also because my mom wasn't rushing to get herself ready for work.

My mother still does this.

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 10:04 AM

My mother still does this.
Yeah, they do it now, too...only earlier since they both have to get ready in the AM.

ETA: I think it's really sweet. When C stays over on a "work night" we have coffee together before he leaves (his day starts earlier than mine). I hope we'll continue it after we move in together (less than 2 weeks).

wordsmith

11-13-2006, 10:46 AM

My parents always stay up late to get their "talking" time in.

Usually, though, even that's multitasking...my dad will be writing up estimates, and my mom will be making flashcards or something for her kids, but they're both sitting at the table, chatting while they do it. On the weekend evenings, they usually watch movies and stuff.

Kitty

11-13-2006, 12:33 PM

D and I usually lay in bed for a couple hours every night and talk. I've grown so accustomed to that, it's hard to fall asleep without it...

Kitty

11-13-2006, 12:34 PM

I hope we'll continue it after we move in together (less than 2 weeks).

Are you nervous at all!?

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 12:38 PM

Are you nervous at all!?
Nervous about what? Moving? Moving in with C? Something else?

Kitty

11-13-2006, 12:39 PM

Nervous about what? Moving? Moving in with C? Something else?

yes! Moving in!!

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 12:42 PM

yes! Moving in!!
LOL a little bit. We tend to get stressed out easily when it comes to chaos, so I'm hoping we'll be able to handle the move itself okay. Also, I'm stubborn about things and like things a certain way, so I'm going to have to compromise more than ever. But, we're getting married, so it's now or never. :) But I'm mostly excited.

Kitty

11-13-2006, 12:46 PM

Yeah, you guys will be fine (it IS exciting!)...and at least you're not sleeping on a daybed! :heehee:

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 12:47 PM

Yeah, you guys will be fine (it IS exciting!)...and at least you're not sleeping on a daybed! :heehee:
We were thinking about getting a waterbed, actually. Don't cut on daybeds, Kitty, you don't know one til you've tried it! :evil:

Kitty

11-13-2006, 12:48 PM

We were thinking about getting a waterbed, actually. Don't cut on daybeds, Kitty, you don't know one til you've tried it! :evil:

True, a daybed with pink sheets would look good under my hello kitty poster.

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 12:53 PM

True, a daybed with pink sheets would look good under my hello kitty poster.
I was looking at bedding at Macys and saw this cool stuff! Which bed set do you think I should get?

http://www1.macys.com/catalog/index.ognc?CategoryID=13934&PageID=13934*1*24*-1*-1&kw=Lilly%20Pulitzer&LinkType=EverGreen

Kitty

11-13-2006, 12:57 PM

I was looking at bedding at Macys and saw this cool stuff! Which bed set do you think I should get?

http://www1.macys.com/catalog/index.ognc?CategoryID=13934&PageID=13934*1*24*-1*-1&kw=Lilly%20Pulitzer&LinkType=EverGreen

Whoa! So cute! You could totally color coordinate your room to cute pices like this:

http://www.lillypulitzer.com/Offerings/productDetail.aspx?productID=bca4dce0-2a9b-4937-af2e-f9da7b8e7ee9&seasonID=ac6f6e6d-9042-4a0f-8a11-3ecbf820bc86&lineID=4400a9a7-5c96-4630-818f-86309b715404&sectionID=8b99dd4c-3a5d-4ccf-a7b5-200ffbbe0755&page=3&outfitsPerPage=6

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 01:00 PM

Whoa! So cute! You could totally color coordinate your room to cute pices like this:

http://www.lillypulitzer.com/Offerings/productDetail.aspx?productID=bca4dce0-2a9b-4937-af2e-f9da7b8e7ee9&seasonID=ac6f6e6d-9042-4a0f-8a11-3ecbf820bc86&lineID=4400a9a7-5c96-4630-818f-86309b715404&sectionID=8b99dd4c-3a5d-4ccf-a7b5-200ffbbe0755&page=3&outfitsPerPage=6
Awesome! I would totally give that jacket FIVE PALMS. Cuz that means you like it!

Kitty

11-13-2006, 01:02 PM

Awesome! I would totally give that jacket FIVE PALMS. Cuz that means you like it!

Turn those palms pink!

wordsmith

11-13-2006, 01:03 PM

D and I usually lay in bed for a couple hours every night and talk. I've grown so accustomed to that, it's hard to fall asleep without it...

This kind of thing is really important to me. In fact, I've realized that I can't really seriously be with somebody if our schedules are so different that going to bed together doesn't happen often. I won't last with somebody who goes to sleep hours before I do.

Kitty

11-13-2006, 01:06 PM

This kind of thing is really important to me. In fact, I've realized that I can't really seriously be with somebody if our schedules are so different that going to bed together doesn't happen often. I won't last with somebody who goes to sleep hours before I do.

Eh, I actually go to bed a lot earlier than D..but he "tucks me in" - so, we talk for a couple hours and then I usually get tired an fall asleep. He gets up and does stuff for a couple more hours and then comes to bed. Works out fine. A lot of times he also falls asleep though :)

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 01:08 PM

Eh, I actually go to bed a lot earlier than D..but he "tucks me in" - so, we talk for a couple hours and then I usually get tired an fall asleep. He gets up and does stuff for a couple more hours and then comes to bed. Works out fine. A lot of times he also falls asleep though :)
Yeah, some times that happens too, with us.

wordsmith

11-13-2006, 01:08 PM

You're still basically going to bed together, then, he just gets up later and does other stuff. That's cool, same purpose served.

Kitty

11-13-2006, 01:13 PM

True, true.

wordsmith

11-13-2006, 01:17 PM

I just don't wanna be in a relationship where I routinely go to bed alone due to inner clock differences. The inner clocks don't have to be perfectly in sync, but they do have to allow for some overlap.

I also don't wanna be the person who, upon marriage/years of marriage, starts occupying a sep. bedroom. What's the point? To me, falling asleep with my mate is part of the package.

Winter Storm

11-13-2006, 01:18 PM

True, a daybed with pink sheets would look good under my hello kitty poster.

Yeah, just make sure its all sparkly and shimmering. That would rock!

mishl982

11-13-2006, 02:34 PM

I love you guys!

Kitty

11-13-2006, 02:35 PM

Yeah, just make sure its all sparkly and shimmering. That would rock!

You mean like shoes that light up?!

winneythepooh7

11-13-2006, 02:36 PM

*tsk tsk* Now girls! You know you are so not nice LOL.

Winter Storm

11-13-2006, 02:40 PM

You mean like shoes that light up?!

Oh! And lip gloss with glitter in it and pink hair barrettes to tie back your side ponytails.

pisces2473

11-13-2006, 03:08 PM

*tsk tsk* Now girls! You know you are so not nice LOL.
Quiet! Or I'll hit your Focus with my Beetle!

steph78

11-13-2006, 04:26 PM

I missed this thread when it was first posted, but it really strikes home for me these days as I am struggling to figure out what the heck I am going to do next year. My baby is due in about two weeks. I am the breadwinner for our family right now like diesel - my husband is in the final stages of his PhD so it is up to me to provide the majority of our income and also things like health insurance (due to health problems, going without health insurance is NOT an option for us!) Luckily those benefits continue while I am out on maternity leave.

We are hoping that by the beginning of next year my husband will be employed full-time. He has been going interviews lately and has several offers in hand - waiting to make a decision until he has interviewed with 3 more companies. So we are trying to decide what to do about me. His goal is to land a salary that will make it possible for me to stay home with the baby if I want to (or I can work part-time if I want to). It's funny though - his salary is about to jump way up, but so are our expenses with this new baby. So far it looks like I will need to keep working about 10 hours/week in order for us to be able to buy a house and afford the new baby.

I realize that we have it pretty good - I will most likely have the flexibility of cutting my work hours back to spend more time with my baby. But at the same time, even with all these options, it's just a lot of stress trying to decide not only what we financially can and can't do, but also what is the right thing to do for our child, (based on my own mom being a full-time mom so it's ingrained in me that that is the "right" way to do things, though that may or may not be true...)

winneythepooh7

11-13-2006, 04:40 PM

Quiet! Or I'll hit your Focus with my Beetle!

The person who drives the beetle and her passenger doesn't want children if I recall?

Fashionista

11-14-2006, 05:30 AM

Tonight's 20/20 had a segment about Elizabeth Vargas' return to work after having her 2nd baby. If you go to the link below, you can read all of the articles from the story.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/

The women that they profiled were busy. Always on the go. I don't know what kind of life that is...for the mothers and the kids.
I watched this segment but didn't realize that there was a thread without so many posts.

I just find it amazing how our society doesn't really do much to help to working mothers even though 2 incomes are needed to survive. The cost of child care is insane, I don't know how people do it, especially when they are not making a lot of money or how a strong support system at home. I think Elizabeth Vargas is an example of the luckier career moms in the fact that she has a job that allows flexible hours, pays well, is a field she loves and she has a support system (her husband). It is hard for ANY mother but money, a flexible job and a support system makes all the difference. The difference ends up being having it "all" or coming close to it or ending up with nothing much career-wise or having a career and realizing that you missed your kid's life

One a side the I found it commical that they showed IBM as being the vanguard of support women with families. They should have noted that daycare on the premises and flexible schedules are only for the people on the top of the business chain. Go see the people working in sales, lower administrative support and the manufactoring line. They don't get those perks at all, in fact they don't exist for those women.