Job Offer Insultingly Low

[sondra_finchley]

Well, the slow as molasses company came back with an offer today of $48K for a marketing analyst position in Chicago. I almost fell over because the HR guy initially told me they started the position at $55K. I have 5 years of experience and a masters degree in economics and have spent the last three years busting my ass doing applied economics crap. He said it was because of my wage level the past few years as in, I got paid peanuts (roughly $30K a year but no benefits) but did the honorable thing and stayed where I was in order to get more experience and figure out what I wanted to do. I moved from a state with no income tax to one with income tax, so Im basically making the same amount as I was before, only living in a town with a higher cost of living.

Am I being irrational? Thinking about declining the job and taking my chances elsewhere. This feels worse than being outright rejected.

[WorkInProgress]

Can you go back with a counter offer rather than just declining? Do you need this job, or are there others to be considered?

[wordsmith]

The main reason I'm still living where I'm living (small town with low COL) instead of Chicago at this point is because of the difficulty of finding someplace in my field that will pay me a reasonable and deserved wage.

I know I'm going to run into the same thing whenever a place asks for a salary history...because I, too, have been working for a low, low wage (if yours is peanuts, mine is the shells of said peanuts) because a. I was paying my dues and getting experience and b. that's the way it goes with this line of work. However, I'm pretty afraid that this is going to make employers think that I'm not seeking/deserving of anything more, and it's not livable if I wanna be in the city.

However, since I was in the running for a position in Chicago that started at the amount you're talking about, and even at that rate, was considerably higher than I anticipated being offered, it IS possible that you're being a little unrealistic. Just my two cents, and obviously, the fields are different.

[Kitty]

Can you go back with a counter offer rather than just declining? Do you need this job, or are there others to be considered?

Yup, argue it. If you have the experience and skills to back it up, they should pay you more.

That is a pretty shitty salary for a job that requires 5 years experience and is in a high COL area.

[sondra_finchley]

I dont NEED the job, I have plenty in savings still, and I can go sling packages at UPS over the holidays on the early shift to make a little bit of cash if I really needed it, but that would be more just to have something to do (am still living with my parents about two hours north of the city). I asked about the offer being negotiable and it sounds like there is very little room for negotiation as they are hiring a second person for the position as well, hence the low offer.

The job would involve becoming the expert at their Siebel/CRM software and running both some monthly standard metrics and specialized research projects on their customer base. I really wouldnt have stayed in the running for the position if I had known it was going to pay less than $55K or even not be even remotely near $55K.

I have an interview with another company on Tuesday for a similar position and they are starting at $65K and its not in the city either.

[Kitty]

Is there room to grow?

Anyway, I'd keep looking. They obviously don't value you very much if they're coming in with a low offer. Plus, you'll be unhappy the whole time you're there.

[Skyblade]

Did you ask if the offer was negotiable? I did that with the job I have now and negotiated a salary 3k higher than the offer.
Edit: Nevermind, looks like you did ask. That sucks if there is little room for negotiation. One time I went to an interview and they told me, "So we start out at $10/hour, would that be ok for you?" and I just about laughed and was like "Frankly, no" and it wasn't at all negotiable, so that was a waste of time. I had to take a test and interview with 2 people which took about 2-2.5 hours.

[WorkInProgress]

Ok.

Is there a reason you couldn't try negotiating for a little bit more? Mention what you'd previously been told and see what happens.

Also, could you take this position, for say, a year while keeping up your search for something better?

Do you have other options that are close to offers?

[wordsmith]

it sounds like there is very little room for negotiation as they are hiring a second person for the position as well, hence the low offer.

This is probably going to affect the negotiation flexibility, you're right.

[weary]

while it's hard to read emotion in text i'll say that you seem very upset and offended by this. i don't know that negotiating would help, even if they did come back up to the $# they first quoted you b/c it seems you will be distrustful/feeling disrespected from the jump. i could be wrong here. but i think you should figure out you feel overall before going back to them. i mean, if you don't feel like it's worth it anyway, no sense in negotiating, right?

[sondra_finchley]

WIP- I thought about that. Obviously I dont want to do anything TOO rash here, as any bridge you burn always comes back to haunt you. The one pro would be to use this position as a way to get into the city and start to establish myself. I can definitely afford to live on this wage, but I couldnt afford to really save money- and Im not a person who spends without concern. But... would this low wage continue to affect me in the future?

Im almost 30, I was hoping to someday in my life NOT still be living with no furniture and roommates.

Also- in regards to wearys post- I finally packed it in at the last job because i was pissed off and frustrated with being paid nothing for all the damn work I provided, some of which was really technical. Two years without a raise because they "couldnt afford" just made me angry and unpleasant. Unfortunately this makes me feel unhappy, and thats not a good way to start any new job at all.

[Kitty]

I really think you should keep looking...it doesn't sound worth it. Your experience and background will be valued by someone and they'll be willing to pay what you want.

[wordsmith]

I'm the wrong person to ask, because in my lengthy job search, I DON'T actually believe what kitty believes.

[WorkInProgress]

I hear ya.

Would it be easier to move up from 48k than 30 later?

Can you put lowballing company off until at least Tuesday? That way you could have a feel for how that interview goes?

I'm confused...is the reason they only offered you 48 because you've been working for 30, or because they're hiring somebody else too and need the extra money for that?

[Kitty]

As someone who is in marketing..I'm telling you, 48k for a marketing analyst position with 5+ years experience in a high COL area is BULL SHIT. You should be making more than that.

[sondra_finchley]

WIP- I think its a combination- the HR guy ( who is very nice) must have heard the disappointment in my voice and gave a bit of an explination. I suppose it makes sense from their side, but I based my continuing in this process on the $55K borderline.

I just dont want to make less take home than I was before due to taxes- thats a step backward and not the point of why I made this big move in the first place.

[Kitty]

I just dont want to make less take home than I was before due to taxes- thats a step backward and not the point of why I made this big move in the first place.

Exactly. Then you'll feel like you have to pay dues for at least a year...it IS moving backwards. there's nothing wrong with not taking a job because the pay doesn't meet your standards. Don't sell yourself short.

[weary]

you know the more i read this thread and the more i think about it...the more i think you should just respectfully decline. i mean, i completely understand what words is saying...but i don't think you will go in there with a good feeling if you accept and therefore even if it could be a good stepping stone you will be miserable. and, honestly, from an employer perspective, if i were offering someone a job i had initally told them was $7k more than the offer, i'd damn sure explain why w/o their having to ask me. that is downright disrespectful. i mean, i can understand offering less...it happens. for the reasons you say they gave you and more. but as the employer, you treat a candidate like you're courting them, not like they're just a damn bus and another one will come along. not burning bridges goes both ways. when i was doing a ton of recruiting i was always told (and firmly believe) that every candidate is a potential customer or competitor.

[WorkInProgress]

I just dont want to make less take home than I was before due to taxes- thats a step backward and not the point of why I made this big move in the first place.

I totally agree that making less than what you used to is crap.

I have no idea what the job market is in your area of expertise or locality, which is why I'm asking these questions.

I agree that if they're offering this because they think they can get you cheap, then it's a bad deal, if you can get something better along a timeline that works for you.

[wordsmith]

honestly, from an employer perspective, if i were offering someone a job i had initally told them was $7k more than the offer, i'd damn sure explain why w/o their having to ask me. that is downright disrespectful. i mean, i can understand offering less...it happens. for the reasons you say they gave you and more. but as the employer, you treat a candidate like you're courting them, not like they're just a damn bus and another one will come along. not burning bridges goes both ways. when i was doing a ton of recruiting i was always told (and firmly believe) that every candidate is a potential customer or competitor.

I agree with this. I think it's somewhat unprofessional to quote a salary and renege, even if the reasons are justified. But then, I'm pissed at the job in my scenario for reneging, as well.

[AshleyJordan]

Don't take the low offer. If you took the job, and worked for the lower wage, you'd resent the employer, and possibly yourself, quite quickly. I've had to turn down some low offers myself, when it became apparent that there was no room for negotiation, and I'm happy that I did.

[sondra_finchley]

Thanks everyone, for all your opinions and views- its made me feel a little bit better :)

[cheshrcarol]

I know you don't think there's much flexibility, but I would go back to them and say that you just can't accept an offer for less than $55k. And explain that you went through the process with them with an understanding from them that that was the start of the salary range, and that while your salary history might be lower, you still feel that for the area and for your experience, you're worth more than they're offering.

At worst, they say "nope, we can't pay you more than 48k". Which doesn't even sound like the case, they just don't want to pay you more than that. And if they do that, you're no worse off than if you had just flat out refused.

At best, they take you up on it, or they make a counter offer.

[winneythepooh7]

I know you don't think there's much flexibility, but I would go back to them and say that you just can't accept an offer for less than $55k. And explain that you went through the process with them with an understanding from them that that was the start of the salary range, and that while your salary history might be lower, you still feel that for the area and for your experience, you're worth more than they're offering.

At worst, they say "nope, we can't pay you more than 48k". Which doesn't even sound like the case, they just don't want to pay you more than that. And if they do that, you're no worse off than if you had just flat out refused.

At best, they take you up on it, or they make a counter offer.

I agree with this suggestion. Although I relate more to Wordsmith, working in a lower paying field and all. If I ever start the job search again, I certainly am going to want to start AT LEAST at what I am making now, which, for the area I live in (very high COL) isn't much really. I have $30.00 in my checking account right now which needs to last me until pay day this coming Friday:rolleyes: .

[sondra_finchley]

Alright, I ran the numbers here and this is pretty grim. If i convert all the salaries to the same place I was living before- then the offer ($48K) represents an 8% increase on what I was making before, but doesnt take the increased tax burden into account, so its actually lower. Their initial low end ($55K) would represent a 27% wage increase on what I had been making, while what I would like to make ($62K) represents a 42% increase on what I had been making. I had been grossly underpaid at the last job anyway, with no raises to speak of, so even their "we start at $55K" is low. However....

Im going to speak to them on Monday and see if its possible they can go to $55K. I understand that Im relocating and have little leverage in terms of a healthy network or another job offer in hand but man- i could save more money by staying put and slinging boxes at UPS part time than to take this job at the current offered rate.

As for the industry- this is in financial services, but is a marketing analyst position. My job before was doing both market research/market analysis/client management/business plan writing AND economic development/economic impact/spatial analyses. I would prefer to move more towards market research and strategic analysis, because economic development doesnt necessarily pay very much, unless you are working for a private firm ( and why do they all seem to be located in Boston? :P ), and I kinda burned out a little on it.

[Xander]

If that company is not willing to pay you at least $55K, respectfully decline. If this company is being shady from the start, I'll bet apples to donuts they continue it.

Also, you have another interview lined up with higher pay, so there is still hope. Good luck.

[kdhmps]

I have a master' degree and have been out of school a few years. I am 25. I was offered 25k, which will increase to 29.5k in January. I am in social services, but I am still very poorly paid, considering my health insurance costs me $207/month. I have over 60k in student loans. I live in Naperville, a suburb of Chicago. Put it this way---I'm taking classes to sit for the CPA exam next fall because I want to be in a profession that pays me for my expertise... Sometimes you can have the best experience, qualifications, and education---and it doesn't matter. Now, I think what really matters in this scenario is that you were told one thing about the salary and offered another. I question the integrity of this company.

[yankeeyosh]

Yup, argue it. If you have the experience and skills to back it up, they should pay you more.

That is a pretty shitty salary for a job that requires 5 years experience and is in a high COL area.

Excuse me, but the average HOUSEHOLD makes less than that in this country....even in high cost areas. I don't know how you came up with that figure, but there are people in Roxbury and East Harlem right now who would be happy to make half of that.

[sondra_finchley]

Yes,but have these people invested lots of time and energy into going to school, learning all the soft skills needed for business, "paid" their dues at an already low paying job and learned as much as they could, including not only the skills for successful project management but also additional technical skills above what their education provided? The world isnt a fair place, and I have a sneaking suspicion its become a whole less fair in the past number of years.

[yankeeyosh]

Yes,but have these people invested lots of time and energy into going to school, learning all the soft skills needed for business, "paid" their dues at an already low paying job and learned as much as they could, including not only the skills for successful project management but also additional technical skills above what their education provided? The world isnt a fair place, and I have a sneaking suspicion its become a whole less fair in the past number of years.

Well, I agree. It is a crapshoot. There's no question about it. Education means zilch these days. It all comes down to interviewing skills. Sadly, body expressions, eye contact, and watching "umms" are more important than merit today in so many cases.

[winneythepooh7]

Yes,but have these people invested lots of time and energy into going to school, learning all the soft skills needed for business, "paid" their dues at an already low paying job and learned as much as they could, including not only the skills for successful project management but also additional technical skills above what their education provided? The world isnt a fair place, and I have a sneaking suspicion its become a whole less fair in the past number of years.

Not to mention that cost of living goes up and up and up, but salaries often do not. Regardless of field. I've seen many talented and educated people have to settle for jobs living paycheck to paycheck or less than that because there's just nothing else out there, and they have to make a living.

[Kitty]

Excuse me, but the average HOUSEHOLD makes less than that in this country....even in high cost areas. I don't know how you came up with that figure, but there are people in Roxbury and East Harlem right now who would be happy to make half of that.

I'm just speaking for the type of job she's going after, her experience, the location, and the industry she's in. It's crappy pay considering all those things. She also mentioned it's a downsize from what she was making before when you add up taxes and COL.

Anyway, I thought you left the boards?

[yankeeyosh]

I'm just speaking for the type of job she's going after, her experience, the location, and the industry she's in. It's crappy pay considering all those things. She also mentioned it's a downsize from what she was making before when you add up taxes and COL.

OK...I see your point. But in general, I think it's a decent salary.


Anyway, I thought you left the boards?
Yup...twelve full days. About twenty times as long as my previous "hiatus".

[Kitty]

OK...I see your point. But in general, I think it's a decent salary.



Yup...twelve full days. About twenty times as long as my previous "hiatus".

I don't think you can speak about ALL salaries in generalities. But ok.

Anyway, WB!!

[winneythepooh7]

I don't think you can speak about ALL salaries in generalities. But ok.

Anyway, WB!!

I agree. I think I make crap as it is, but if I moved to a job in the suburbs or where my parents live, my salary would probably be cut in half.

[yankeeyosh]

I don't think you can speak about ALL salaries in generalities. But ok.

Anyway, WB!!

What I mean is that I thought you said $48K was a "bad" salary in general.

To be fair, however, I was once upset with a $40K offer in Connecticut since it was well below what I asked for...but then I quickly realized that it was quite manageable.

[Kitty]

What I mean is that I thought you said $48K was a "bad" salary in general.

To be fair, however, I was once upset with a $40K offer in Connecticut since it was well below what I asked for...but then I quickly realized that it was quite manageable.

No, I was just saying it sounded like a bad salary for the OP.

[winneythepooh7]

What I mean is that I thought you said $48K was a "bad" salary in general.

To be fair, however, I was once upset with a $40K offer in Connecticut since it was well below what I asked for...but then I quickly realized that it was quite manageable.

That's actually so much higher then most salaries in my field. And while I am bias and think Social Workers deserve much more (especially in expensive NYC and Long Island), it is manageable. I make around that.

[g8ergal83]

i think thats wrong if they tell you the intro pay will be 55k and then they offer you 48. i'd look elsewhere. what else are they going to short-change you on?

ps.. what state has no income tax?

[yankeeyosh]

After further review, I do agree with the OP, by the way. I am not a fan of expecting a lot more than the market rate, since it makes you look entitlted, but this is actually ant-entitlement...you paid your dues, making shit (esp. with that background), and now you rightfully feel you deserve to make a market rate. Glossing over your background again, it's amazing you managed to stayed that long at your current position at that salary. Few 20-somethings these days would be willing to go that long in that position...at least voluntarily.

The job market is a 100% crapshoot. No question.

[winneythepooh7]

After further review, I do agree with the OP, by the way. I am not a fan of expecting a lot more than the market rate, since it makes you look entitlted, but this is actually ant-entitlement...you paid your dues, making shit (esp. with that background), and now you rightfully feel you deserve to make a market rate. Glossing over your background again, it's amazing you managed to stayed that long at your current position at that salary. Few 20-somethings these days would be willing to go that long in that position...at least voluntarily.

The job market is a 100% crapshoot. No question.

Mark, remember why you took a "break" in the first place........

[Still Looking]

Well, the slow as molasses company came back with an offer today of $48K for a marketing analyst position in Chicago. I almost fell over because the HR guy initially told me they started the position at $55K. I have 5 years of experience and a masters degree in economics and have spent the last three years busting my ass doing applied economics crap. He said it was because of my wage level the past few years as in, I got paid peanuts (roughly $30K a year but no benefits) but did the honorable thing and stayed where I was in order to get more experience and figure out what I wanted to do. I moved from a state with no income tax to one with income tax, so Im basically making the same amount as I was before, only living in a town with a higher cost of living.

Am I being irrational? Thinking about declining the job and taking my chances elsewhere. This feels worse than being outright rejected.

Hey I received an offer a few weeks ago from two companies. One wanted to pay 12k less than what I make now and the other wanted to pay 2k less. The first offer was just a slap in the face, so I know exactly what you are talking about. I came back with a counter offer but they would not budge....so of course I rejected it. These companies have just lost their freakin minds!

[winneythepooh7]

Hey I received an offer a few weeks ago from two companies. One wanted to pay 12k less than what I make now and the other wanted to pay 2k less. The first offer was just a slap in the face, so I know exactly what you are talking about. I came back with a counter offer but they would not budge....so of course I rejected it. These companies have just lost their freakin minds!

Sometimes it's not the "company". My company would love to pay every employee more. But the state and the government doesn't value social services (like teaching and so many other professions) so staff in this area is paid jack.

[sondra_finchley]

g8rgal- Nevada doesnt have state income tax. As far as I know, neither does Alaska (ive lived and worked in both states- this is my first venture into an income tax state!). At the offered salary its really breaking the deal.

This has been really difficult to deal with, Ive vacillated all weekend between outright rejection of the offer and then seeing if I can get at least $55K out of them. But... I am at the top end of their "experience required" range, and as I found out more about the position it seemed like it was less interesting than what I originally thought it would be. It could have the potential to grow into something better but... there isnt a clear path, at this moment, for growth and promotion from this position. They are a fast growing, global firm but... the EVP and the senior research guy both admitted to staff morale problems over the past year and that the marketing department is underfunded. Im concerned that the second lady I spoke with (who would be my boss and is in NJ), actually stumbled into mentioning that she was glad she didnt work out of the Chicago office because of the EVP and how she can be.

From where Im sitting its the right position at the wrong time- a few years ago it would have been a great fit for me. Now Im tired of being lowballed and assumed to be a pushover who doesnt want to advance- I also left the last job because it wasnt challenging enough. I want to go into work happy and pleased with what I do, not be dragged out and angry AGAIN like the situation I just left.

Unfortunately friends and family dont understand me wanting to outright reject this- and I think thats where the confusion in my mind is coming from. One friend who I respect greatly and is also looking for work right now suggested seeing if we could come to an agreement at $53.5K because its better than the $0 im making at the moment. I think that is still too low, but I understand the point that Im not making anything at the moment. But is it really that bad to turn down a so-so to awful job offer and wait for the next one to come along when you are unemployed (but have options and savings)?

After all those years of slaving away thinking someone would finally notice all my hard work and network me into a position I finally got a clue that no one at my last office was going to help me, so Im trying to learn to stand up for myself and what I want and need now.

Ill let you all know how it turns out.

[wordsmith]

But is it really that bad to turn down a so-so to awful job offer and wait for the next one to come along when you are unemployed (but have options and savings)?

If you can afford to wait for the right thing, there's no reason not to. You shouldn't take a job that's not what you're looking for unless you have to.

[winneythepooh7]

If you can afford to wait for the right thing, there's no reason not to. You shouldn't take a job that's not what you're looking for unless you have to.

I agree. I can see the argument for taking the job if you need an income. However, as an employer, this would ultimately screw me and our clients over if everyone who came along was just taking these jobs as something "temporary". I mean, in the grand scheme of things, everything is probably "temporary" but you all know what I am saying I think.......

[wordsmith]

Sometimes you HAVE to take a job that's "good enough," when you literally can't afford to be without the income. If you have the means, though, I see no reason not to hold out for the right job, versus one you're not really wanting to do.

[Kitty]

Sometimes you HAVE to take a job that's "good enough," when you literally can't afford to be without the income. If you have the means, though, I see no reason not to hold out for the right job, versus one you're not really wanting to do.

I agree....if you actually have the luxury of being a bit picky and waiting for the right job, then I don't see why you wouldn't take advantage of that.

[sondra_finchley]

I dont want to be picky for too long here though lol! And with the holiday season coming up even though Ill still be applying Im wondering if things are going to slow down a little.

[cheshrcarol]

I agree. I can see the argument for taking the job if you need an income. However, as an employer, this would ultimately screw me and our clients over if everyone who came along was just taking these jobs as something "temporary". I mean, in the grand scheme of things, everything is probably "temporary" but you all know what I am saying I think.......I used to be one of those people that was really concerned for my employer. I used to work my ass off to not screw people over. And then I got fired for the "disloyalty" of looking for another job, I got royally screwed over by a company that kept stringing me along for 5 months, and laid off by another company after 6 months before I could qualify for benefits. I used to worry about screwing that last company over when I left, even though I hated it.

And now I could care less. I've come to realize that most employers do NOT care about the people they're hiring. When I'm done with school and on the job market again, I will look out for #1: Me.

BTW, winney I'm not trying to say you're one of those nightmare employers I've dealth with. It's just getting burnt so many times has changed my attitude.

[Kitty]

And now I could care less. I've come to realize that most employers do NOT care about the people they're hiring. When I'm done with school and on the job market again, I will look out for #1: Me.

This is how I've always been and people usually give me shit about it. Bottom line is employers don't give a shit about you - so, you better believe I put myself before my employer.

[wordsmith]

I don't get concerned for my employer at all, I get concerned about doing the best job for the people I serve (because I've worked exclusively in fields that are providing a service to the community). I could give a crap about coming through for my employer, it's more a matter of the people who actually DO benefit from my work...i.e. the families I worked with when I was in human services and the readership now that I'm in community news. They're the ones I serve, and the ones that are appreciative of my efforts in the instances where anybody is, and that's who I care about, not the people cutting my check.

[winneythepooh7]

I don't get concerned for my employer at all, I get concerned about doing the best job for the people I serve (because I've worked exclusively in fields that are providing a service to the community). I could give a crap about coming through for my employer, it's more a matter of the people who actually DO benefit from my work...i.e. the families I worked with when I was in human services and the readership now that I'm in community news. They're the ones I serve, and the ones that are appreciative of my efforts in the instances where anybody is, and that's who I care about, not the people cutting my check.

Keep in mind that if you do a shitty job in human services, it usually reflects poorly on the supervisor. And we often end up having to do your work for you anyways ;).

[wordsmith]

Kind of how it goes in journalism, too...if you do a crap job, somebody else is going to have to clean up your mess before it goes to print. Basically you have to be motivated by pride in your own work and what's a reflection on you. I can't do a less than shitty job or just look out for number one, for many reasons, not the least of which is that because in doing so, it would reflect poorly and make me look less than committed to doing the best possible job. A lot of it has to do with pride in work, and that has a lot to do with why I won't mail in my performance...more about me than anybody else.

[Kitty]

Putting yourself before your employer doesn't really have anything to do with how good a job you do.

I don't think there's any employers out there that actually care about their employees more than they care about themselves. That doesn't mean I'm going to do a shitty job. Those two things aren't really related to me.

[winneythepooh7]

Putting yourself before your employer doesn't really have anything to do with how good a job you do.

I don't think there's any employers out there that actually care about their employees more than they care about themselves. That doesn't mean I'm going to do a shitty job. Those two things aren't really related to me.

What I am talking about is more along the lines of putting one's stuff ahead of work so much so, that it interferes with work. And those people do exist.

[sondra_finchley]

TO answer Yankeeyoshs questions and to support what Words is saying-

I stayed so long at the last job because I was helping people in the community and helping communities become more viable. Yeah, I had a kick for martyring myself for a while there too, until I came to hate the people I was trying to help because they took advantage of the free services we provided and the skills I could provide. So im putting my foot down to no more.

Update: I made the call. The HR guy is so damn nice there- and such a soothing voice! We had a good long chat and he explained that the part timer they had out in Colorado quit so they are bringing that position to full time and into the Chicago office- hence the second offer. He DID find a piece of paper that initially showed that the job was to start at or around $55K- so at least there is documented evidence of it (knew I wasnt crazy!). He explained the benefits and the 401K contributions/matching so I have a bit more information on that to make my decision on. Then he made a suggestion as to what I needed to do to make a counter offer in writing that he can take to the hiring manager (sounds like the Chicago lady usurped the hiring duties of the NJ lady after a fashion).

New questions:

1) Any recommendations as to how to put a counteroffer letter together? I want to get this dealt with by early afternoon so its off my hands.

2) For those in Illinois- if you are a single filer, what allowances do you take? Is it 1 like for the federal taxes?

[Kitty]

What I am talking about is more along the lines of putting one's stuff ahead of work so much so, that it interferes with work. And those people do exist.

That's putting yourself before your work, not yourself before your employer.

I'm talking more about looking out for my own interests when it comes to pay, time off, my health, benefits, etc. Not about the actual quality of the work I do.

[winneythepooh7]

That's putting yourself before your work, not yourself before your employer.

I'm talking more about looking out for my own interests when it comes to pay, time off, my health, benefits, etc. Not about the actual quality of the work I do.

It still is though IMO. When my staff don't do their job, I end up having to do it for them. I hired many of them, so I still look at it as they are dumping their work in my lap.

[wordsmith]

TO answer Yankeeyoshs questions and to support what Words is saying-

I stayed so long at the last job because I was helping people in the community and helping communities become more viable. Yeah, I had a kick for martyring myself for a while there too, until I came to hate the people I was trying to help because they took advantage of the free services we provided and the skills I could provide. So im putting my foot down to no more.

I don't really think it's being a martyr as long as you actually enjoy what you're doing, and aren't all, "I'm sacrificing everything I love to help people, blah, blah." Yeah, I serve people with what I do, and that's of course fulfilling, but I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't love the type of work it is. It's not like I'd stick with something I despised just to provide a service...that WOULD be martyrdom.

[wordsmith]

2) For those in Illinois- if you are a single filer, what allowances do you take? Is it 1 like for the federal taxes?

You can opt to do zero or one.

[sondra_finchley]

I think I got to that point- I originally loved helping clients succeed or learning something new so I could help a community get more funding for something they needed. But then I just burned out on it, and I burned out on people taking what I did for granted. I suppose it was a little bit of both poor management on the part of the people in my office and me getting a clue that I wanted to do more with life than scrimp and save in order to help people whose attitudes were getting obnoxious.

What is 0? No dependents?

[Kitty]

It still is though IMO. When my staff don't do their job, I end up having to do it for them. I hired many of them, so I still look at it as they are dumping their work in my lap.

Huh? I'm not really talking about that.

I think we're talking about two totally separate issues.

[winneythepooh7]

Huh? I'm not really talking about that.

I think we're talking about two totally separate issues.


LOL. I keep jumping back and forth from this and the other thread where I think this topic is being discussed.

[wordsmith]

I think I got to that point- I originally loved helping clients succeed or learning something new so I could help a community get more funding for something they needed. But then I just burned out on it, and I burned out on people taking what I did for granted. I suppose it was a little bit of both poor management on the part of the people in my office and me getting a clue that I wanted to do more with life than scrimp and save in order to help people whose attitudes were getting obnoxious.

What is 0? No dependents?

Yep, you can either claim yourself as a dependent or claim no dependents if you are a single filer, no kids. Just depends on your feelings on getting more or less withheld.

And, yeah, if your efforts aren't appreciated and you get to feeling taken for granted, the shine fades from doing "helping" type professions. I know that I'm not especially appreciated by my employer and am often taken advantage of, because to them, I'm a warm (albeit conveniently well-written, so, hey, bonus) body. But there are others who do appreciate what I do.

[sondra_finchley]

Ok, the counter offer is off and away- sent it just after noon this morning. I told them I wanted $56K a year and outlined three major points of my skill set that would be immediately effective for the position. I figured out my low point too, so thats done. Well see what they say, but Im not holding my breath for this one. No matter- I can handle whatever comes my way.

Keep you folks posted!

[AshleyJordan]

I'm really glad that you made the counteroffer. . . fingers crossed!

[yankeeyosh]

Mark, remember why you took a "break" in the first place........

I know...I really should confine myself to "Current Events", but non-entitled people who paid their dues yet get the short end of the stick frustrate me almost as much as reading about all the entitled people. Is there a way I can block off certain forums?

Good luck sondra :)

[shimma]

As someone who is in marketing..I'm telling you, 48k for a marketing analyst position with 5+ years experience in a high COL area is BULL SHIT. You should be making more than that.


It's not only bullshit, but if you accept that low salary you're perpetuatiing a cycle. You already shot yourself in the foot by sticking with that 30K job, and even if you are grossly underpaid, a new employer would look at your salary history and be like, of course 48K is plenty for her, that's a 60% raise!

My fiance when he moved here (much higher COL than where he came from) took a lowball offer, and 3 1/2 years and considerable salary adjustments later, is still like 30K below where he should be given his background, qualifications, etc.

And don't delude yourself into thinking they'll see how great you are and give you a big raise. It just doesn't work that way, you need to get it coming in.

Don't give them a "bargain". It will set you back financially for years.

[sondra_finchley]

Im way done giving people a bargain for my services, and Im mentally prepared to walk from this position- its just not feeling right, this whole mess. And you are right shimma- promises are only promises and I work on the assumption that I would be lucky to get a 3% raise each year. Its pretty sobering to look at exactly how little that is, and the less you negotiate for yourself up front, the further behind you can fall.

Today was a good day- no news from Chicago, I had a pretty good interview with another firm ( who have a salary range for the position that is exactly in line with what my skills would be worth) and I came home today to an email for a new company in Chicago who have my mythical "Dream Job"- never thought I would get noticed amongst the heaps of resumes im sure they received for that position!

[crystal_dance]

I received an offer like this...

I received a verbal offer for a business analyst position with a major investment bank last week. I was so happy until HR gave me the numbers yesterday. I have a masters degree and ~ 4 yrs of experience (working while in school and post-school combined) and they came up with a ridiculous offer of $60K + 5K sign on bonus.

To me that's peanuts given the fact that this position is NOT going to be in the NYC area where I live but in god-knows-where Whippany, NJ. I also know that given the industry, there are going to be many many 70 hour weeks and the thought of commuting 2-3 hours a day in traffic everyday, which will mean writing off my social life while working in a highly intense industry leaves me feeling sad that this employer undervalues people.

I'll have to sleep on this one.

[Kitty]

And don't delude yourself into thinking they'll see how great you are and give you a big raise. It just doesn't work that way, you need to get it coming in.


Totally agree with this. You need to get the most COMING IN. That's when you have the negotiating power.

[sondra_finchley]

Ok update from Chicago-

Apparently final offer has been bumped up to $51K. Apparently the hiring manager was really impressed with my qualifications and blah de blah but I mean cmon. This is still $3K below my lowest threshold. Im going to call them first thing Monday but Im pretty sure Ill be turning the offer down.

Its disappointing given that im looking for a job and would like to finally get resettled, but at the same time, Im trusting my gut on this one- something about all of this just is NOT adding up and it hasnt been for a few weeks now. Im trying to avoid taking a job again like i had where I got so angry and frustrated and depressed because I was never compensated fairly. If I took this I could see it going that direction quickly, especially given all the mess over the salary. I understand that companies need to get the most for their salary, but at the same time, paying a little bit more would probably result in a whole lot happier and productive people.

Is it likely that most employers will see my previously low range, not take COL into account, and give me the same sort of short end of the stick as these people?

[jls]

I dont NEED the job, I have plenty in savings still, and I can go sling packages at UPS over the holidays on the early shift to make a little bit of cash if I really needed it, but that would be more just to have something to do (am still living with my parents about two hours north of the city). I asked about the offer being negotiable and it sounds like there is very little room for negotiation as they are hiring a second person for the position as well, hence the low offer.

The job would involve becoming the expert at their Siebel/CRM software and running both some monthly standard metrics and specialized research projects on their customer base. I really wouldnt have stayed in the running for the position if I had known it was going to pay less than $55K or even not be even remotely near $55K.

I have an interview with another company on Tuesday for a similar position and they are starting at $65K and its not in the city either.


You never know what you will be making in a year if you go with the company. Is this a place that you think you would be happy. The idea is to get your foot in the door and then prove that you are worth more then they are paying you. When you have gained some leverage then you will have more influence on your pay, especially if they can't find someone who can do the job as well as you. Most of the time companies will hire for less pay and give promotions when they can see that your past experience has made you valuable to them. The more risk you are willing to take the better the payment in the end.

[wordsmith]

There are two completely diff. schools of thought on this being represented...

One: You demand your perception of your worth upfront, and assume that the company will take your word that that's what you deserve in compensation. If you don't lay it out from the get-go, you'll never get it, and moreover, future jobs will see it as a license to lowball you, since you've accepted it in the past.

Two: You start at as high as they'll go, and prove your worth once you're in the position, negotiating for pay as you prove your service to the employer.

I have no idea which is true personally, and I suspect it varies company to company.

[Kitty]

You never know what you will be making in a year if you go with the company. Is this a place that you think you would be happy. The idea is to get your foot in the door and then prove that you are worth more then they are paying you. When you have gained some leverage then you will have more influence on your pay, especially if they can't find someone who can do the job as well as you. Most of the time companies will hire for less pay and give promotions when they can see that your past experience has made you valuable to them. The more risk you are willing to take the better the payment in the end.

She already has leverage in that she has 5 years experience. She doesn't need to get her "foot in the door." Also, once you've accepted a job, it's usually a LOT harder to get raises and pay increases. I would assume this would be even more applicable to a job that's trying to nickle and dime you for 3k.

[sondra_finchley]

What they are doing now is splitting the difference between what they offered and what the job was initially supposed to list as- yet still stiffing me $500. I dont know when all the monkeying around happened with this job, but something is just OFF. I wonder if messing around with data and doing some cleaning of it started to enter a bit more into the job description, which definitely isnt what Im looking for at all. There also isnt a clear path for promotion from this job (just like my last one!) and given the woman in charge, I suspect it would take a lot to crank something additional out of her.

[jls]

She already has leverage in that she has 5 years experience. She doesn't need to get her "foot in the door." Also, once you've accepted a job, it's usually a LOT harder to get raises and pay increases. I would assume this would be even more applicable to a job that's trying to nickle and dime you for 3k.


Instead of being so negative it may be a good idea to be more positive. Just because she has five years of experience does not mean that she doesn't need to get her foot in the door. It's a new company and unless she has done something ridiculous in the industry they are not going to be willing to give her the 65% + increase in her income. Does she want to be part of the company? Let's face it no matter who you are - YOU ARE LUCKY TO BE EMPLOYED OR GETTING OFFERS. Maybe what needs to happen is to step back a little and evaluate where she wants to be in 5 years. If she accepts this job; does she think she will be able to get where she would like to be in 5 years? Kitty- you seem to be a little hostile and possibly even a little negative...having a job is better then not having a job, just because she accepts this job now doesn't mean she has to stop looking for another job. BUT it is what is- make what you can of it...IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY!

[winneythepooh7]

I just had another thought:

Sometimes, it depends what your years of experience are in for many positions. I see this ALL the time in my field, especially for administrative-level positions. Sure, you may have worked in the field since 1990-something, but if you don't have experience supervising, grant-writing, blah de blah de blah de blah, they don't count that as "the experience they are looking for".

[sondra_finchley]

Where I want to be in 5 years is in a supervisory position or getting some decision-making position face time in. I want to be able to start leading teams and people. Potentially I would like to go to a good business school or maybe do that second masters in applied economics. I want to be able to 1) actually own a car for the first time in my life ( and no, it doesnt have to be brand new and likely wouldnt be) and 2) probably own my own home. Presently I own no furniture- I would like to live with couches that arent mismatched and handed down from old roommates. Im not 23- ill be 30 in May- I really dont think that is too much to ask. There are only so many years when you can not be paid what you are worth and make sacrifices in your standard of living. Those days are over for me- I need and want to start living at the same level as some of my peers.

If I wasnt getting any other interviews and interest from other firms then maybe I would take this position- but I have been getting a very good response rate from my resume submissions and all from firms interested in paying me a fair market wage for my education, skills, and abilities. Given this result- taking this offer would be close to career suicide.

WtP7- Yeah I know what you are saying, and I think in this instance its a case of trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole, if I take a step back and look at it from that viewpoint. Most of my background is in high-level analysis running complex models on sophisticated software. But.. I also have some good survey and marketing background too- what they are asking for in this position could potentially bore me in a few months. I have the background and experience for what they are looking for, though it wasnt mainly what I had been doing the last few years its not like it would be a huge stretch to do what they want done. Sounds like they need a warm body who can do the work and I need a job that will challenge me to do bigger and better things and lead into managerial options. Its a new position- they dont know what they need or where it will lead at all, so I understand.

BTW its not a 65% increase in income if you compare it with both figures set at the same place. Its barely 10% and would not have made the move profitable at all.

[shimma]

Is it likely that most employers will see my previously low range, not take COL into account, and give me the same sort of short end of the stick as these people?

You can bet the ranch on it. So be firm and upfront about your salary in the interviews: (ie, "I want 65K/year. I realize that's a step up from my previous salary, but taking cost of living and what I'm worth in the market into account, I feel that's reasonable.")

[wordsmith]

Basically, what I'm taking out of this in relationship to myself as I read it is that you all are saying that because I don't make much now, I'm never going to. That's good to know. :rolleyes:

[winneythepooh7]

Basically, what I'm taking out of this in relationship to myself as I read it is that you all are saying that because I don't make much now, I'm never going to. That's good to know. :rolleyes:


I didn't read anything like that. When I said what I said a little up thread, it's based on seeing people who have only worked in like say, one job, since college. Many employers will look at them as not being experienced enough for certain positions, even if that isn't really the case. I've said this before, but I think you are a lot different and go above and beyond most people I know these days, Jess. Any employer should feel blessed to have you. And pay you as such.

[wordsmith]

I didn't read anything like that. When I said what I said a little up thread, it's based on seeing people who have only worked in like say, one job, since college. Many employers will look at them as not being experienced enough for certain positions, even if that isn't really the case. I've said this before, but I think you are a lot different and go above and beyond most people I know these days, Jess. Any employer should feel blessed to have you. And pay you as such.

No, that's not how I read it at all (and I won't post on it anymore, at least not on this thread, because I don't mean to threadjack, but this is just a feeling that really came up for me reading the responses, however, I've been recently accused of making things "all about me," so this is all I'll say).

I've got a job, obviously, in a low-paying field, in a low-paying area with a low COL. I've gotten all the raises my company's going to give, and it's not just me, it's everyone. We Most of you know this. I'm not going to earn any more where I am, despite people's admonitions that I should demand more $$$, it's not happening. We were shot down when asking that our mileage reimbursement be raised from 18 cents to the national average, they're certainly not going to be amenable to upping anybody's salary by several thousand dollars. It's just not happening.

I've been at my job 5 years. What I'm taking from this is that since I've been here five years and have not received an appreciable increase in salary, due to no fault of my own, employers will look at that and never offer me anymore than that.

[winneythepooh7]

No, that's not how I read it at all (and I won't post on it anymore, at least not on this thread, because I don't mean to threadjack, but this is just a feeling that really came up for me reading the responses, however, I've been recently accused of making things "all about me," so this is all I'll say).

I've got a job, obviously, in a low-paying field, in a low-paying area with a low COL. I've gotten all the raises my company's going to give, and it's not just me, it's everyone. We Most of you know this. I'm not going to earn any more where I am, despite people's admonitions that I should demand more $$$, it's not happening. We were shot down when asking that our mileage reimbursement be raised from 18 cents to the national average, they're certainly not going to be amenable to upping anybody's salary by several thousand dollars. It's just not happening.

I've been at my job 5 years. What I'm taking from this is that since I've been here five years and have not received an appreciable increase in salary, due to no fault of my own, employers will look at that and never offer me anymore than that.

I completely understand where you are coming from. I hear the same stuff all the time, that I should ask for more money. In human services, there just is not more money to give. Also, since I manage my program, I am in the know that our program is LOSING $$$ right now (ie. our 2 F/T staff don't have full caseloads, we don't have all of our cases fully staffed, therefore, we can't bill Medicaid for the $$$ we should be billing for services, etc. etc.). Because of that, I feel lucky to have my position. I know other agencies who have slashed my position to save money and have their staff supervised by someone who hasn't been working with the specific population we serve, to save $$$.

Not to continue to threadjack, but due to some issues in my personal life with the SO, I am thinking that after the holidays, I should put my feelers out for something with more security, better benefits, pension, etc. just to be on the "safe side".....

[AshleyJordan]

Maybe I'm misinformed here, but I've never even mentioned past salaries at job interviews. I'll just mention the number that I'm asking for the future, when we get to that point in the negotiation/interview process.

Sure, they're not always able to meet that number, but, to me, it's based more on industry standards, my experience, and what the firm can afford based on what I bring to the table. Again, maybe this is because I'm a little younger, but I've also been in a full-time professional position for ~4 years. I don't see this as being about what salary I've lived on for the past few years, but what my current skills and experience are worth. This might also be because I was also making peanuts the last few years (close to s_f's past salary), while finishing school . . .

[Kitty]

Maybe I'm misinformed here, but I've never even mentioned past salaries at job interviews. I'll just mention the number that I'm asking for the future, when we get to that point in the negotiation/interview process.


Same. In the past, even when I was asked what I currently make, I just turn it around and answer with this.

[wordsmith]

The only time I ever put my salary is for positions that require a salary history in the application process, which is, IMO, simply looking for an open window through which to lowball you.

[Kitty]

The only time I ever put my salary is for positions that require a salary history in the application process, which is, IMO, simply looking for an open window through which to lowball you.

I usually just leave it blank. If they come back and ask me then I'll answer. I don't think I've ever had anyone come back and point out that I left it blank.

[J-girl]

The only time I ever put my salary is for positions that require a salary history in the application process, which is, IMO, simply looking for an open window through which to lowball you.
I would just lie. I mean its not that they can actually call and ask your ex or current employer how much you make. Thats illegal.

If I am asked how much I am expecting to be paid, I usually just do some web research on how much these positions are typically paid.

[wordsmith]

The only places that have had my list salary requirements are places that have had online applications where you can't leave required fields blank, or it won't let you continue on.

I also was asked to put salary expectations, which I did based on my research of the industries, and also with COL of the area in which the job is located being taken into account.

But it still looks weird when you're in a position that's paying one amount, and you're asking for about 25-30k more than that.

[Kitty]

In that case, if I were trying to make a lot more than I was currently being paid, I would definitely lie. But, that's just me and it's a risk I'm willing to take (and have taken in the past). I know not everyone is willing to do that.

[wordsmith]

Yeah, definitely not. There's no way I'll ever lie on any job applications.

[shimma]

I would just lie. I mean its not that they can actually call and ask your ex or current employer how much you make. Thats illegal.

Not in the US. In fact, it's normal here. They can ask your ex or current employer your salary and dates you worked there, but nothing else.

[sondra_finchley]

My previous salary came out in the background check, and fair enough- not a big deal. I thought I did enough explaining through the rest of the interviewing about wanting to be paid more, how my past work situation was, and why I stayed as long as I did so that the company I was interviewing with would at least have an inkling of why it is as low as it is. Now, Im wondering if the HR guy was not using it as an excuse partly for the low offer, even though it shouldnt really have that much bearing on the salary itself.

Just like words I had topped out as much as I was going to make where I was. I was fine with that for a while, until I felt underappreciated and undercompensated and really lost my drive for doing the job to the best of my ability. There wasnt any way to get a raise, or to move into a new position because that was just the way the place was- we were a non-profit as well. Unfortunately plenty of times employers dont see the value in those jobs at all.

[AshleyJordan]

Just like words I had topped out as much as I was going to make where I was. I was fine with that for a while, until I felt underappreciated and undercompensated and really lost my drive for doing the job to the best of my ability. There wasnt any way to get a raise, or to move into a new position because that was just the way the place was- we were a non-profit as well. Unfortunately plenty of times employers dont see the value in those jobs at all.

That's a big question I have because, as I've hinted in other threads, I'm seriously considering making the switch to the private sector. Although I have a ton of marketable skills-- mostly financial and writing-- they're all based around a different accounting model and writing proposals, etc. for donations. To me, that could transfer well to marketing or maybe even some lower-level financial positions. . . but how well could I make that pitch to a corporate HR person?

[sondra_finchley]

Update-

I spoke to them today and turned down the job. That was a hard thing to do, but the right one. The HR guy wished me well and was very courteous, which made it even more difficult.

Gah... back to the hunt then. I know Ill be glad I did this in the end, but until then its going to be a little difficult!

[wordsmith]

That's a big question I have because, as I've hinted in other threads, I'm seriously considering making the switch to the private sector. Although I have a ton of marketable skills-- mostly financial and writing-- they're all based around a different accounting model and writing proposals, etc. for donations. To me, that could transfer well to marketing or maybe even some lower-level financial positions. . . but how well could I make that pitch to a corporate HR person?

I went from nonprofit to the "regular" working world, but I don't work in an intensely corporate atmosphere even now, even so. Still, the skill transferral was no prob.

[spokes]

i personally think it is somewhat funny that some employers get all hung up on salary as your salary/pay is only one head of the multi headed beast known as "total compensation" - job a might pay $50,000 and offer no bonus, no retirement plan, no health insurance etc, while job b might pay $42,000 but offer a target bonus of 25%, stock options, company paid health insurance a retirment plan etc - how is anyone going to note that on a salary history...........

I a perfect world a persons salary would always increase - however that is not always the case.