*spinoff* paying off SO's debt?

[pisces2473]

I've seen it mentioned more than a few times on here, where a person will mention how they and their SO are working on paying of the SO's debt, be it personal (like credit cards) or school loans.

What's your take on this? I think that if the SO created the debt, the SO should be solely responsible. Especially if the debt was a result of foolish spending. Why should I be at fault for something that was done years before I met my spouse? I'm sure people will reply that marriage or an LTR is a team effort, but if I was able to control my spending/credit card use, why should I have to contribute my earnings towards your problem? I agree that a marriage/LTR is team effort, but when it comes from debt that I had nothing to do with...then I feel a little ambivalent.

Obviously if both of us had cc debt and/or school loans, then yeah, we'd help each other out. Fortunately, in my case, both C and I do not have any debt. I will need a new car, but it'll probably be after we get married, so it'll be a joint purchase and a joint debt.

[winneythepooh7]

I don't feel that anyone should feel that they have to pay for someone's CC debt, especially if it was not "emergency" spending. If they want to, well, that's a different story. I used to date a guy who said that if we ever got married, he'd pay some of my student loans for me, because I was going to school to better the both of us. Right now, M can't really afford that though.

In fact, it's really hard for us to "pool" our money. Pretty much as it stands, I pay everything each month, he gives me money towards the rent, and picks up extra expenses (ie. will throw me some cash to go to the grocery store, will buy dinner out, will pay for gifts for all of the recent weddings we've been to that have been on "his side", etc.).

I think if we decide to have a child, I still will get some kind of at-least P/T job to help out with bills. I just don't see us doing it any other way. I hope this answers you question in a round-about way.

P.S. I put M onto my CC account, but he doesn't use it.

[shimma]

The only way I could justify paying off an SO's debt is if he were a legitimate husband. (ie, his debt would affect my credit then too). But Jen I agree with you, if it's materialstic spending, the onus should be on him.

[WorkInProgress]

I would be uncomfortable paying anyone's debts but my own, at least until I were married. There will be plenty of "money talk" before I do get married, though. I want to have all those ducks in a row beforehand.

[wordsmith]

Even married, I don't want anybody paying off anything I accrued pre-that person (nor will I ever probably earn enough to even be ABLE to take on somebody else's obligations, in addition to my own, even if I wanted to). Logically, I know that married people often choose to help one another out with individual debt situations, in order to become where they want to be financially as a couple, but on a gut level, I really have a problem with somebody else absorbing my student loans, any other debt I might have. Maybe it's my knee-jerk response the whole "gold digging" thing, since I've heard (more on these boards than in life, true, but that doesn't mean guys I know in life aren't thinking it) over and over again that this is a major concern for guys. I don't ever want anybody to think that I'm taking advantage. My debt is mine alone.

And obviously, I would never accept (or expect to be offered) financial assistance from an S.O.

[Chameleon]

If I ever get into a situation, I hope we can work out a solution which doesn't leave me resentful, not sure if that's possible though.

My older brother got married last year and his wife had moved to live with him in his city but couldn't find a job for over a year. It's been a trying year for them and I've seen incredible maturity that I didn't think my brother was capable of. He's had to take care of all the bills including her student loans and car loan on his salary. He worked his butt off and gotten a better position and raise in his company. I think things have eased up a bit since she got a realtor's license but that's not a steady source of income; hopefully my gadget-freak brother is putting the extra money to good use.

[EmberMae]

We have joint money right now but he makes more than me so it's hard to say whether I am personally contributing toward paying off his debt or not. It depends on how we fiddle with the numbers, but essentially it doesn't matter. It's all the same money. I've pretty much accepted the fact that fiance's debt is going to affect me whether we keep separate accounts or not, as it will still take us longer to afford a house, etc. So I decided to be proactive and take over the accounts and get it DONE because I have the ability and the inclination to do so and he really doesn't.

I have very little debt on a low interest car loan and he has quite a bit with student loans and a high interest car loan, and we are slowly working towards paying it off the best we can because the faster we pay it off the faster we will not be paying a large chunk of our money toward bank profits. The only time I get really angry is every time I think about his car payment. The student loans, while annoying, are justifiable, but the problem with his car payment, is his father is a complete moron, and went shopping with fiance for a car while I was out of town. Of course fiance never contradicts his father :rolleyes: so when it's all said and done we will end up paying more for a car he bought 5 year old used than a car I bought brand new (they are both compact sedans). That fact drives me crazy, and it's going to take close to a year of throwing everything we have at that damn car payment to get rid of it, and as soon as we have a safe chunk in savings, that's what I'm going to do because paying 9% interest is just not acceptable.

[Ciderhillnh]

I wouldnt help an SO with their debt...its THEIRS and I wouldnt expect them to help me with mine, because its mine.

Now....if I were married and they were going to grad school, I might help a bit, but they would have to pay the majority.......simply because if he goes into debt, then we are both in debt, and Id rather have none. So if contributing 10% towards the cost helps offset that, then Im for it (plus if it means he will be paid more..again good investment)

[SmilesSoSweet]

I MUST be married to even consider helping out with an SOs debt!

That's all I'll say on this topic.

[winneythepooh7]

I wouldnt help an SO with their debt...its THEIRS and I wouldnt expect them to help me with mine, because its mine.

Now....if I were married and they were going to grad school, I might help a bit, but they would have to pay the majority.......simply because if he goes into debt, then we are both in debt, and Id rather have none. So if contributing 10% towards the cost helps offset that, then Im for it (plus if it means he will be paid more..again good investment)

I worked while in grad school. I would expect my husband to do the same.

[sparky88]

I would not pay off someone else's debt or except their help if we weren't married. That being said, I am married and we pay for everything together. It's not my car note, his car note- they're both ours. We don't divide our money at all. Both of our paychecks go to the same account to pay the bills. We both do our best to make $, based on our talents/gifts/interests and that's all you can do.

[MetFanL]

If I was with someone and we were planning our life together, I'd absolutely pay off their debt and hope that they'd do the same for me because, in the end, regardless of who created the debt, everything becomes "our milk" when you're in it together.

Since i have a lot of debt, I would add that I wouldn't expect them to pay the bill, but if my share of our living expenses were smaller so that I could focus on cleaning it all up, that'd be ideal.

[Josie]

I'd worry about resentment issues either way on this, I think. I mean, if my SO had a ton of cc debt and then we got married and I made him be responsible for it, I'd resent him for not having that money they have pays his bills with every month, to do fun things with me instead, or help pay on a mortgage or something. And if it we just paid on stuff jointly, I think I'd resent seeing "his" bill come every month.

Let me throw in here though, that even though an SO doesn't have debt now, he/she can create it while in a relationship but doing something small like getting a speeding ticket, which in combination with traffic shool, insurance etc, will run $400. Do you guys feel the same about that? I mean, it's his/her fault, so who pays then?

[WorkInProgress]

Let me throw in here though, that even though an SO doesn't have debt now, he/she can create it while in a relationship but doing something small like getting a speeding ticket, which in combination with traffic shool, insurance etc, will run $400. Do you guys feel the same about that? I mean, it's his/her fault, so who pays then?

It probably depends on how the finances are set up. If it's his, hers & theirs, I would expect that a person expense (like a speeding ticket) would come out of the individual's pot of money. If everything is joint, well, then it would come out of the joint account.

[Bocheezu]

Logically, I know that married people often choose to help one another out with individual debt situations, in order to become where they want to be financially as a couple, but on a gut level, I really have a problem with somebody else absorbing my student loans, any other debt I might have.

How about the SO paying off the debt and then you pay the SO back at 0%?

Debt is debt, it doesn't matter who has it, it's money that's getting thrown out the window. I'm the type of guy that would rather pay off a 6% debt than invest the money in an investment that pays more. I just don't like debt.

[and1grad]

I think I'd be pretty pissed if I had to work on paying someone else's debt off. Especially if they got it without a real plan on paying it off, whether its from school or otherwise.

[wordsmith]

How about the SO paying off the debt and then you pay the SO back at 0%?

Debt is debt, it doesn't matter who has it, it's money that's getting thrown out the window. I'm the type of guy that would rather pay off a 6% debt than invest the money in an investment that pays more. I just don't like debt.


No way, in the case of an unmarried relationship.

In the case of a spouse, I can't really say 100%, without being in the situation, and knowing the dynamic between the person and myself, but talking out my butt, I'm still really, really, really intensely uncomfortable with somebody paying MY debt. I would be extremely hesitant to ever go there.

[wordsmith]

I think I'd be pretty pissed if I had to work on paying someone else's debt off. Especially if they got it without a real plan on paying it off, whether its from school or otherwise.

I agree (well, not that I'd be pissed, but let's be honest, my OWN school debt is all I can handle, I wouldn't even be ABLE to take on somebody else's), but I just don't see it as my responsibility.

But, this brings to mind something that hatched in my head out of what Josie mentioned earlier...Say you're married to somebody who is paying, oh, 30k of student loan debt and a grand on their MasterCard accumulated pre-you. They don't expect you to pay on their loan/credit card, they're doing it on their own. But because they are paying on their own debt, this makes a dent in what's left for them to contribute to household expenses, savings, etc. Does this make a difference? Especially if your earnings are not the same? Does this cause resentment or being upset? And is it worse than the resentment that would be caused by helping them pay off whatever debt, hypothetically? I don't really expect there to be answers, just food for thought.

Sometimes I wonder if the only answer is that two people can't really successfully be together unless their finances/debt/earnings are really comparable, or you're always treading on perilously thin ice of potential resentment and financially-related discord.

[pisces2473]

I agree (well, not that I'd be pissed, but let's be honest, my OWN school debt is all I can handle, I wouldn't even be ABLE to take on somebody else's), but I just don't see it as my responsibility.

But, this brings to mind something that hatched in my head out of what Josie mentioned earlier...Say you're married to somebody who is paying, oh, 30k of student loan debt and a grand on their MasterCard accumulated pre-you. They don't expect you to pay on their loan/credit card, they're doing it on their own. But because they are paying on their own debt, this makes a dent in what's left for them to contribute to household expenses, savings, etc. Does this make a difference? Especially if your earnings are not the same? Does this cause resentment of being upset?

Sometimes I wonder if the only answer is that two people can't really successfully be together unless their finances/debt/earnings are really comparable, or you're always treading on perilously thin ice of potential resentment and financially-related discord.
I was thinking similarly, Jess. It sounds so confusing, no matter which way you look at it.

For C and me, we both have no school debt, no credit card debt (besides like a balance of 2 or 3 months type of thing), our cars are paid off (his is an 05 Pathfinder, mine's a 99 Escort)...I will need a new car, and he's advised me to wait until after we're married, but I feel weird, having him just all of a sudden help me with a car. Even if we get the car after we're married!

[wordsmith]

I would feel way less weird to go in together on a car that will belong to both than have somebody pick up the payments on a note on a car they didn't buy in the first place, or something.

A joint purchase, to me, is diff than paying off somebody's preexisting obligations.

[winneythepooh7]

M & I are in the same financial category, except mine is more "steady" income. I can't imagine all of a sudden being married to someone who was well-off enough to pay all of my debts. Can't say I would say no to that, but I do wonder if it would come with a "price".

[and1grad]

But, this brings to mind something that hatched in my head out of what Josie mentioned earlier...Say you're married to somebody who is paying, oh, 30k of student loan debt and a grand on their MasterCard accumulated pre-you. They don't expect you to pay on their loan/credit card, they're doing it on their own. But because they are paying on their own debt, this makes a dent in what's left for them to contribute to household expenses, savings, etc. Does this make a difference? Especially if your earnings are not the same? Does this cause resentment or being upset? And is it worse than the resentment that would be caused by helping them pay off whatever debt, hypothetically? I don't really expect there to be answers, just food for thought.

Sometimes I wonder if the only answer is that two people can't really successfully be together unless their finances/debt/earnings are really comparable, or you're always treading on perilously thin ice of potential resentment and financially-related discord.
I'm sure it would eventually become a problem no matter what the scenario. Isnt money what breaks most marriages up anyway?

[Kitty]

If you're married, then it becomes both partner's debt. When I get married, I view that as a merging of everything (assets, debt, retirement, savings, etc.). You can't divide things so 50/50 when you're talking about spending your life with someone and building a future together (family, house, etc.).

It's really no ones business what happens between two people and if one person wants to pay off another person's debt - who the hell cares? If it doesn't work for you, then that's fine....but I wouldn't let it bother you if its happening in someone elses relationship.

[wordsmith]

I'm sure it would eventually become a problem no matter what the scenario. Isnt money what breaks most marriages up anyway?

So you're saying that, hypothetically, you* are best off partnering with somebody who is debt-free, or at least only in debt comparable to what you've got going on, in order to prevent this from being an issue, if I'm reading you right? And that you'd need to be earning comparably, to offset this as well, so nobody's taking care of more than the other person? That a person's level of debt would have a lot to do with the future of a relationship, other factors not withstanding?

I've long suspected that I'm pretty much screwed in terms of ever getting married, etc. due to the fact that I have debt (not unreasonable debt, but debt, none the less). Also because I don't work in a high paying field and am likely never going to be an equal contributor, because most people don't work in professional fields that low-paying. This is something that gets nearly daily reinforced.

Money is always pointed to as the thing that couples fight about most, but poor communication and resentment (about money issues, etc.), is really the root of what leads to most breakups, IMO.

*Not "you," and1, but "you" used in the general sense, in your opinion.

[Kitty]

D and I have NEVER had a fight about money. Not a one. We also have totally different financial situations and have never harbored any type of negative feelings or resentment towards one another.

[springhaze]

In a dating relationship- absolutely no way. Funds should stay as separate as possible before a marriage/life partnership commitment.

In a marriage/partnership scenario, I don't have a problem with it. If the lines of communication are open and honest and one partner contributing towards another's debt is seen to be the best course of action by both people, then that's fine (especially in marriage, where one partner's debt is legally both partners' debt.) If everything is done openly and honestly in an atmosphere of trust, there shouldn't be any resentment issues.

[wordsmith]

I If everything is done openly and honestly in an atmosphere of trust, there shouldn't be any resentment issues.

Best case scenario, absolutely.

But at the risk of being cast as a cynic..."shouldn't" and "aren't" are two totally different things in terms of resentment issues.

[springhaze]

Best case scenario, absolutely.

But at the risk of being cast as a cynic..."shouldn't" and "aren't" are two totally different things in terms of resentment issues.

Agreed....I guess the ability to handle this kind of situation with no bad feelings on either side depends on the strength of the relationship in the first place. In a marriage with unresolved issues, sharing debts might not be the smartest idea in the world.

[wordsmith]

So, then, are we saying that strong relationships should be able to survive sharing uneven amounts of debt? I'm not arguing yes or no, just wondering if that's your perspective.

[Chameleon]

I always wondered how it worked in a stay-at-home situation since there's a lot of emphasis on one's contribution to the bills. With my brother, it definitely wasn't the plan to have only one of them earning money. What if your spouse loses his/her job or gets disabled and is incapable of working a couple years into the marriage?

What happens if the strain is too much and, god forbid, you divorce? How will the debt be divvied up?

[Kitty]

So, then, are we saying that strong relationships should be able to survive sharing uneven amounts of debt? I'm not arguing yes or no, just wondering if that's your perspective.

It's been true for me. D and I have totally different financial situations. I have student loans and debt and make a lot less. he doens't have any debt or loans and makes a lot more. We haven't had any issues. It IS possible to be in a relationship like that and have it work. It seems odd to me to think you'd have to find someone with the exact same financial summary as you in order to have a successful partnership.

[WorkInProgress]

Money is always pointed to as the thing that couples fight about most, but poor communication and resentment (about money issues, etc.), is really the root of what leads to most breakups, IMO.

I agree. But I don't know what can be done about resentment. Everyone's just got to know what the "deal" is when going into it and accept it or not (and then, when something about it changes, because it will, deal with it together).

[cache]

So, then, are we saying that strong relationships should be able to survive sharing uneven amounts of debt? I'm not arguing yes or no, just wondering if that's your perspective.

Sure. As long as the reasons that that debt was created are no longer present...or at least that the debt difference is not still accumulating.

[Kitty]

Sure. As long as the reasons that that debt was created are no longer present...or at least that the debt difference is not still accumulating.

That's a good point. I could see that as being an issue.

[wordsmith]

Totally agree.

It's also nice, for what it's worth, to see a few posts that don't point to owing money being pretty much the death knell on winding up in an LTR or marriage. Because most of the time, that's pretty much how I feel about it.

[pisces2473]

D and I have NEVER had a fight about money. Not a one. We also have totally different financial situations and have never harbored any type of negative feelings or resentment towards one another.
Us neither. C might get a little worried about what I'm doing with our household account--like, do we have enough in there for the rent? After I explain it to him, he gets it. And he trusts me to manage our joint money, to pay the utilities on time, etc. We don't really need to fight about money...we talk about it, but it's always civil. We have similar spending/saving habits.

[pisces2473]

It's been true for me. D and I have totally different financial situations. I have student loans and debt and make a lot less. he doens't have any debt or loans and makes a lot more. We haven't had any issues. It IS possible to be in a relationship like that and have it work. It seems odd to me to think you'd have to find someone with the exact same financial summary as you in order to have a successful partnership.
But you guys have totally separate financial stuff, right? My original post on here was more for those people who have combined finances and how they feel about paying for other debts/having their debts paid by others?

Obv, ANYONE can answer. I wasn't trying to be like "joint accounts ONLY!!!" LOL

[Kitty]

But you guys have totally separate financial stuff, right? My original post on here was more for those people who have combined finances and how they feel about paying for other debts/having their debts paid by others?

Obv, ANYONE can answer. I wasn't trying to be like "joint accounts ONLY!!!" LOL

Just because you have separate bank accounts doesn't mean that everything isn't shared. We are planning on getting married and buying a house together, so our finances definitely impact one another. Also, D has helped me out in the past.

[MetFanL]

Honestly, my debbt is part of the fun package that is me. I'll take care of it myself, but if my SO can't deal, see ya. Through good and bad and all that... It may be idealistic, but it's how I feel. And, if I'm with someone and I want to clean my sh*t up, I'd even consider moving back in with the 'rents while I pay it all off and before I move in with them.

[wordsmith]

Us neither. C might get a little worried about what I'm doing with our household account--like, do we have enough in there for the rent? After I explain it to him, he gets it. And he trusts me to manage our joint money, to pay the utilities on time, etc. We don't really need to fight about money...we talk about it, but it's always civil. We have similar spending/saving habits.

Right, but as you've mentioned, you're in a similar boat...he doesn't have fifty grand in student loans, or a 25k car note, you don't have 10 grand in credit card debt...

What if any or all of those were the case? Would that have hindered either of your decisions to become legally and financially entertwined in marriage, do you think?

[pisces2473]

Just because you have separate bank accounts doesn't mean that everything isn't shared. We are planning on getting married and buying a house together, so our finances definitely impact one another. Also, D has helped me out in the past.
Oh, I wasn't trying to say that. I agree. I think what I was trying to say wasn't coming out right. I'm sorry if I sounded weird before, not my intent!

[EmberMae]

But, this brings to mind something that hatched in my head out of what Josie mentioned earlier...Say you're married to somebody who is paying, oh, 30k of student loan debt and a grand on their MasterCard accumulated pre-you. They don't expect you to pay on their loan/credit card, they're doing it on their own. But because they are paying on their own debt, this makes a dent in what's left for them to contribute to household expenses, savings, etc. Does this make a difference? Especially if your earnings are not the same? Does this cause resentment or being upset? And is it worse than the resentment that would be caused by helping them pay off whatever debt, hypothetically? I don't really expect there to be answers, just food for thought.
This is exactly what I was referring to when I said that it doesn't matter whether you keep your money separate and act as if the one partner is not paying on the other partner's debt, either way the debt is going to affect both. That's why I think it's best to combine forces and get rid of the debt as quickly as possible.

I am optimistic, I think it is possible for it not to cause resentment, assuming that the debt was accumulated in the past and there is not more debt happening with out both partner's consent, in which case it would be both partners' debt.

[analogman]

I've long suspected that I'm pretty much screwed in terms of ever getting married, etc. due to the fact that I have debt (not unreasonable debt, but debt, none the less). Also because I don't work in a high paying field and am likely never going to be an equal contributor, because most people don't work in professional fields that low-paying. This is something that gets nearly daily reinforced.

Money is always pointed to as the thing that couples fight about most, but poor communication and resentment (about money issues, etc.), is really the root of what leads to most breakups, IMO.

*Not "you," and1, but "you" used in the general sense, in your opinion.

I don't think your money situation will prevent you from getting married. If someone loves you enough to want to marry you, he probably knows your career aspirations and future earning potential and I don't think the money would be a deal-breaker.

I find the original question interesting but somewhat puzzling. Maybe I am on a different planet (Mars and Venus and all :p ) but it's very difficult to be 100% even on money (and many other things) in a marriage. One person could earn more and come in with more debt; one person could have more debt but have some skill that helps reduce household costs (i.e. a good cook); one person might have less income but come into the relationship with more assets; etc.... Let’s say two people get married and one person needs a car. Should the other person also get a car so things are fair? That doesn’t really make good sense.

The "easiest" thing to do is really say "OK, we are married, let's just pool all the debts and assets and incomes and go from there.” If both parties know the other person’s exact financial situation when getting married, then there are no surprises. If there are no surprises, then hopefully there is no resentment.

Within reason, I have no problem paying a theoretical SO’s debt. If the debt is not reasonable (this would be due to some sort of character flaw, i.e. spending habits) then I’d probably choose not to marry this person (I hope one doesn’t spend too long to get to that conclusions though). Past performance is the best predictor for future performance and I don’t think marrying someone with plans to change him/her is a good (or realistic) idea.

[Josie]

Greg and I don't really argue about money, it's more of me freaking out that a) we spend so much on crap (not expensive crap, but a lot of crap) and b) I still can't believe how much his students loans are.

So I freak out over his loans even though they are the best investment he ever made, and we made as a couple because I got with him knowing he was starting law school, and knowing that we would be in debt when he was done.

BUT because of us pulling our money together, regardless of the student loan debt, we were able to afford a house. There's no way he could have done it on his own, and it used to worry him before we met.

We have joint everything. It works for us. We have a house payment, car payment, one credit card, his student loans, and my student loan (about 1/15th the size of his), and regular utilities.

To me, seperate accounts seems like a lot of book-keeping. Keeping track of who owes who what for what bill, and then what happens when say one person's car breaks down? Does only that person pay for their own car? Or do both? And who pays for childcare?

[Kitty]

This is exactly what I was referring to when I said that it doesn't matter whether you keep your money separate and act as if the one partner is not paying on the other partner's debt, either way the debt is going to affect both. That's why I think it's best to combine forces and get rid of the debt as quickly as possible.

I am optimistic, I think it is possible for it not to cause resentment, assuming that the debt was accumulated in the past and there is not more debt happening with out both partner's consent, in which case it would be both partners' debt.

I agree with you on both points. D has offered to pay off my debt in full..but I haven't let him. I'll consider when we're married.

[WorkInProgress]

D has offered to pay off my debt in full..but I haven't let him. I'll consider when we're married.

This is probably what I would do if I were in a similar situation.

[analogman]

We have similar spending/saving habits.

I think this is more important than anything else money related, assuming both people have good habits. If both have bad habits, then it's not going to be pretty.

[pisces2473]

Right, but as you've mentioned, you're in a similar boat...he doesn't have fifty grand in student loans, or a 25k car note, you don't have 10 grand in credit card debt...

What if any or all of those were the case? Would that have hindered either of your decisions to become legally and financially entertwined in marriage, do you think?
Good question! Esp with things going on in his personal life that could have resulted in a LOT of debt, if circumstances were different.

I wouldn't have said no to a marriage proposal, or put up an ultimatum like, "Get rid of your debt then we'll get married." I think I'd ask how he planned on settling it, if he thought about changing jobs, taking on another one, etc. I think I'd ask him if he assumed I would help him, or if he wanted to tackle it all himself.

I can't speak for him, but I think he'd feel the same way, if I was the one with debt. I also think he'd be more generous with helping me, if I had the debt, than I would be with him, if he had the debt. He also has some family money coming to him, so he knows he would be okay in the long run, and would be able to help me out. I do not have any family money coming to me, so in order to help him with hypothetical debt, I would have to be in an OK financial situation (better than the one I'm in now!). But I wouldn't start working extra hours just to pay off HIS debt. I would maybe work more so that we could attain shared goals, like buying a house or a car. But the debt would be his, I think...

Hmmm, I might have to add more later.

[Josie]

It sure seems like a long time to keep the debts seperated, if you're married for 20+ years. And I think there comes a point, when you as a wife/husband do not like to see your SO with debt so you help pay it off. Regardless of how they got into debt, it will inhibit what you are able to do as a couple in the future. And if you have the ability to help him/her out, it will ultimately help you out as a couple.

Say for a mortgage loan or car loan. If you do it joint, but one person has more debt, it brings the both of you down. If you have the ability to lessen that, wouldn't you?

[pisces2473]

I agree with you on both points. D has offered to pay off my debt in full..but I haven't let him. I'll consider when we're married.
Yeah, I agree with you and Ember. C wants to buy me a car when he gets his settlement and I said, not until we're married. If I get a car before we get married, it'll be in my name and with my money. If he wants to help me pay it off after we're married, great.

Josie, right now, because we aren't married, we each put in $800/month to cover rent, utilities, food, etc in a joint account. The rest of our salaries are for us to pay our cell phones, car insurance, gas, clothes, fun stuff, etc. When we get married, we'll reevaluate the situation, probably pooling our money with a limit to how much money we can spend on ourselves w/out having to check with the other. Or something.

It is a bitch having separate and joint accounts. Every payday, we both have to write checks from our personal accts to the joint, then pay the bills from the joint, etc. Annoyyyyyinnnnng.

[MetFanL]

It is a bitch having separate and joint accounts. Every payday, we both have to write checks from our personal accts to the joint, then pay the bills from the joint, etc. Annoyyyyyinnnnng.
Eww... Can't you set up a direct deposit thing? I have my checks getting deposited into several accounts...

[pisces2473]

Eww... Can't you set up a direct deposit thing? I have my checks getting deposited into several accounts...
My employer doesn't offer it, since we do our own payroll. C's does, but he's anti-direct deposit. Even better--my personal account is at a different bank than the joint, which is fun. C's bank is the same as the joint though.

[Suidoken]

I’ve seen to many failed relationships to put my trust in a woman financially. I don’t ever want to be in a position where a woman and I break up and I’m left with bills I can’t pay on my own. I’m a pretty ambitious guy so I figured that I would always make more money than the woman I’m dating lol. I’ve had some surprises. One of the surprises was a nurse in NV making $80,000 hha. I want to set it up so that regardless of who I marry I buy the house in my name my salary is able to pay all the bills of the house regardless of whether she is there or not. This way if my woman is a high (or not) earning she can bring home her check and do with it as she pleases.

I do want my woman to contribute to the regular bills. I’m not for paying off my so’s debt. By living with me a woman should have less bills from the jump so she can use the excess money to pay off her own debt lol.

I’m all for getting ahead. Live below your means and you won’t struggle financially.

[wordsmith]

Good question! Esp with things going on in his personal life that could have resulted in a LOT of debt, if circumstances were different.

I wouldn't have said no to a marriage proposal, or put up an ultimatum like, "Get rid of your debt then we'll get married." I think I'd ask how he planned on settling it, if he thought about changing jobs, taking on another one, etc. I think I'd ask him if he assumed I would help him, or if he wanted to tackle it all himself.

I can't speak for him, but I think he'd feel the same way, if I was the one with debt. I also think he'd be more generous with helping me, if I had the debt, than I would be with him, if he had the debt. He also has some family money coming to him, so he knows he would be okay in the long run, and would be able to help me out. I do not have any family money coming to me, so in order to help him with hypothetical debt, I would have to be in an OK financial situation (better than the one I'm in now!). But I wouldn't start working extra hours just to pay off HIS debt. I would maybe work more so that we could attain shared goals, like buying a house or a car. But the debt would be his, I think...

Hmmm, I might have to add more later.

Go back even further, though...would you have gotten that FAR in the relationship if it were the case (and known earlier on) that one or both parties was in significant debt? I'm trying to assess how likely it is that having debt even prevents dating from getting past certain stages.

I don't think your money situation will prevent you from getting married. If someone loves you enough to want to marry you, he probably knows your career aspirations and future earning potential and I don't think the money would be a deal-breaker.

One way of looking at it...somebody who doesn't love you debt and all not being the person for you...I just have to wonder if that's realistic/likely. Just my own personal struggle.

I find the original question interesting but somewhat puzzling. Maybe I am on a different planet (Mars and Venus and all ) but it's very difficult to be 100% even on money (and many other things) in a marriage. One person could earn more and come in with more debt; one person could have more debt but have some skill that helps reduce household costs (i.e. a good cook); one person might have less income but come into the relationship with more assets; etc.... Let’s say two people get married and one person needs a car. Should the other person also get a car so things are fair? That doesn’t really make good sense.

I agree that marriage doesn't mean things will always be neatly even. But it seems like it's important to many that finances be.

The "easiest" thing to do is really say "OK, we are married, let's just pool all the debts and assets and incomes and go from there.” If both parties know the other person’s exact financial situation when getting married, then there are no surprises. If there are no surprises, then hopefully there is no resentment.

I know...but like I said earlier, you'd HOPE that no surprises means no resentment...but, well, there really is no way to guarantee that you'll never be resented.

Within reason, I have no problem paying a theoretical SO’s debt. If the debt is not reasonable (this would be due to some sort of character flaw, i.e. spending habits) then I’d probably choose not to marry this person (I hope one doesn’t spend too long to get to that conclusions though). Past performance is the best predictor for future performance and I don’t think marrying someone with plans to change him/her is a good (or realistic) idea.

On the other side of the coin, debt can be the result of past mistakes that are isolated, non-repeated circumstances, not necessarily the result of habitual behavior. Past circumstances aren't past performance.

[Kitty]

I’ve seen to many failed relationships to put my trust in a woman financially. I don’t ever want to be in a position where a woman and I break up and I’m left with bills I can’t pay on my own. I’m a pretty ambitious guy so I figured that I would always make more money than the woman I’m dating lol. I’ve had some surprises. One of the surprises was a nurse in NV making $80,000 hha. I want to set it up so that regardless of who I marry I buy the house in my name my salary is able to pay all the bills of the house regardless of whether she is there or not. This way if my woman is a high (or not) earning she can bring home her check and do with it as she pleases.

I do want my woman to contribute to the regular bills. I’m not for paying off my so’s debt. By living with me a woman should have less bills from the jump so she can use the excess money to pay off her own debt lol.

I’m all for getting ahead. Live below your means and you won’t struggle financially.

Wow, I think your sexism might be the bigger issue were you to get married.

[WorkInProgress]

C's does, but he's anti-direct deposit.

Really? Why, if you don't mind my asking? I'm having a hard time coming up with any negatives for it.

[WorkInProgress]

I’ve seen to many failed relationships to put my trust in a woman financially. I don’t ever want to be in a position where a woman and I break up and I’m left with bills I can’t pay on my own. I’m a pretty ambitious guy so I figured that I would always make more money than the woman I’m dating lol. I’ve had some surprises. One of the surprises was a nurse in NV making $80,000 hha. I want to set it up so that regardless of who I marry I buy the house in my name my salary is able to pay all the bills of the house regardless of whether she is there or not. This way if my woman is a high (or not) earning she can bring home her check and do with it as she pleases.

I do want my woman to contribute to the regular bills. I’m not for paying off my so’s debt. By living with me a woman should have less bills from the jump so she can use the excess money to pay off her own debt lol.

I’m all for getting ahead. Live below your means and you won’t struggle financially.

Just for clarification...would you have a hard time trusting her because she's a woman, or because she's somebody not you? Because I'm really hoping it's the latter, and I can relate to that. And your post comes off like it's the former.

[Josie]

It is a bitch having separate and joint accounts. Every payday, we both have to write checks from our personal accts to the joint, then pay the bills from the joint, etc. Annoyyyyyinnnnng.

I would imagine. Maybe it will be easier when you're married?

[Kitty]

I agree that marriage doesn't mean things will always be neatly even. But it seems like it's important to many that finances be.



I don't see how that's even possible if you're in a marriage. You or SO might get a great promotion, fall on a hard times and get into debt as a result (i'm thinking health problems, getting fired, etc.). Most likely the finances won't always match up, even if they start out that way.

[wordsmith]

I don't see how that's even possible if you're in a marriage. You or SO might get a great promotion, fall on a hard times and get into debt as a result (i'm thinking health problems, getting fired, etc.). Most likely the finances won't always match up, even if they start out that way.

I agree. But I haven't ever felt like that's the prevailing attitude among people I come into contact with.

[WorkInProgress]

I'm trying to assess how likely it is that having debt even prevents dating from getting past certain stages.

I know very few people who have no debt whatsoever, and if the news is to be believed, such people are an endangered species.

I would expect that anyone I date have at least some debt.

[analogman]

On the other side of the coin, debt can be the result of past mistakes that are isolated, non-repeated circumstances, not necessarily the result of habitual behavior. Past circumstances aren't past performance.

Mistakes can be forgiven (and the debt paid). However, if someone has a track record of many mistakes in a row, then it starts to look like habitual behavior. We won't have too much to project the future with so all we can do is look to past behavior to try to ascertain how the other person will act in the future.

[Josie]

Well Words, I mean how long do you date someone before you guys bring up your debt? It's not like a first date question. So I would think that you are pretty involved (emotionally) with someone (meaning a foundation is laid) before debt is brought up. And I have yet to meet or even hear of someone who specifically broke up with someone because of their debt. I don't know why that is....perhaps we as a society have accepted that x amount of debt is acceptable?

[Suidoken]

For me to want to provide a home where my wife doesn't have to worry about the bills?

Women send to many mixed messages. If anything I'm setting up my future wife to have more spending money than me haha.

People base their opinions on their perception of reality. The reality is statistically women haven't surpassed men financially and women make less for jobs than their male equivalents. These are the stats. It’s not right it needs to be changed I’m in total agreement.

Yeah something about that medical field thought. An 80K nurse was one and a cute 30 year old doctor making 100K was another who kind of got me.

[wordsmith]

I know very few people who have no debt whatsoever, and if the news is to be believed, such people are an endangered species.

I would expect that anyone I date have at least some debt.

Right, but I meant more along the lines of uneven debt loads.

[Josie]

Words, I think debt is easier to pay off for a couple because the overall living expenses are less as a couple (sharing rent, utilities etc). So the unevenness of debt doesn't seem to be as great, imo.

[Suidoken]

There is a huge double standard in play here. If I were female and said the same thing I said in the earlier post I would probably getting high 5's from the ladies lol.

Alimony child support things of that nature are serious. I put my faith in God and in myself. I don't need a second income. Anything a woman brings in will be in addition to. It’s her money what type of man would I be if I couldn’t afford to pay the bills by myself? I'm a traditional man I still believe men should care for women. I'm not overbearing or controlling or distrusting. I'm a tactician though. I freely express my views with women online and off. I’ve never had someone call me a sexist for my financial views though. This is interesting.

[wordsmith]

Assuming it's not resented that you came in with x amount of debt additional to the other person, anyway.

[WorkInProgress]

Right, but I meant more along the lines of uneven debt loads.

If I'm very seriously considering tying my finances with someone else's I will really want to know what all that debt is from. Depending on how much it is, what it's from, and the explanation(s), I could see myself walking away. But it really does depend, and I would definitely think long and hard about it before making a decision.

[wordsmith]

Well Words, I mean how long do you date someone before you guys bring up your debt? It's not like a first date question. So I would think that you are pretty involved (emotionally) with someone (meaning a foundation is laid) before debt is brought up.

Totally agree...I don't talk finance specifics with anybody unless I know them damned well. Although there are for sure indicators that could definitely lead somebody to correctly asses my finances if they were looking, without it being specifically broken down and discussed...my general outlook on spending (i.e. I am cheap about EVERYthing)/cutting out everything but barebones necessities, etc. is born DIRECTLY of my putting as much money as possible toward paying things off, and paring down all expenses to do so).

And I have yet to meet or even hear of someone who specifically broke up with someone because of their debt. I don't know why that is....perhaps we as a society have accepted that x amount of debt is acceptable?

Me, either. But I can't say I don't suspect that it's been an unspoken factor.

[cheshrcarol]

I have never been in the financial position to be able to pay off someone else's debt much less my own. And I doubt I would be comfortable paying off a debt or having my debt paid off by someone I wasn't married to. Although what other people in relationships do is their business.

I fully expect though, when I get married that everything becomes shared. Shared debt, assets, etc. We will work together to pay off OUR debts and not worry about not worry about nickel and diming each other. Marriage is a partnership, not a 50-50 financial investment. If someone doesn't agree with any of that or is going to resent me for $3k of cc debt from before we were married and student loans that are intended to increase my earning potential, well then I don't want to marry them.

[wordsmith]

I guess I just assume that more people are resentful/have the potential to be resentful than would admit it. And, yeah, I agree, carol, you don't wanna marry somebody who's like that. But I think more people than let on have the potential to be "like that."

[WorkInProgress]

There is a huge double standard in play here. If I were female and said the same thing I said in the earlier post I would probably getting high 5's from the ladies lol.

Alimony child support things of that nature are serious. I put my faith in God and in myself. I don't need a second income. Anything a woman brings in will be in addition to. It’s her money what type of man would I be if I couldn’t afford to pay the bills by myself? I'm a traditional man I still believe men should care for women. I'm not overbearing or controlling or distrusting. I'm a tactician though. I freely express my views with women online and off. I’ve never had someone call me a sexist for my financial views though. This is interesting.

I was just asking for clarification because I wasn't sure which (if either) it was. I wasn't calling you out.

I totally agree that it is hard to trust someone else with one's financial future. (And I'm pretty sure I said that before.)

And, whether or not anyone's said it to you before, if you expect to support a wife just because she's a woman, or you won't trust her with your money just because she's a woman, that does make those decisions sexist, by definition. And, for the record, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of that. If it works for you and your (future) wife, that's great.

[cheshrcarol]

But I think more people than let on have the potential to be "like that."Yeah, I'm sure there are.

For me, I would be more afraid of resentment after marriage - for my spending and resentment for my husband's spending. It's one thing to overlook that debt from before the marriage, it's another when the DH has to go out and get the latest 60 inch plasma without talking to you first. Or even small things that add up like eating lunch out every day or whatever. I guess that's where similar spending habits become important. Personally, I think that when I get married I would like to have 90% of our stuff shared, but I'd also like a small amount of my own money to be just my own so I could spend it however I wanted. And of course that amount would be mutually agreed on, whether it's a percentage or just a flat dollar amt.

[pisces2473]

Go back even further, though...would you have gotten that FAR in the relationship if it were the case (and known earlier on) that one or both parties was in significant debt? I'm trying to assess how likely it is that having debt even prevents dating from getting past certain stages.
I honestly don't know. At what stage do you bring up finances? I think it's a grey area.

One way of looking at it...somebody who doesn't love you debt and all not being the person for you...I just have to wonder if that's realistic/likely. Just my own personal struggle.
Jess, has someone actually told you that this was a problem? In an actual relationship with you? Or is this just a hypothetical?

I agree that marriage doesn't mean things will always be neatly even. But it seems like it's important to many that finances be.
In a perfect world, sure. But I just realized that if I end up staying home w/ kids someday, C will be providing for all of us. Things will definitely be UNeven. So you don't really know.

[Suidoken]

Trust has to be earned. I wouldn’t marry a woman I didn’t trust. I’m just against living off of two incomes as if it were one. A lot of women I’ve met seem to think “ Okay you pay 1000 a month for you place and I pay about the same. Why don’t we get a $2000 a month place”? This type of thing isn’t smart financially. If the space is required then it may be justified. But 9 times out of 10 I’d wager it’s not. This is how people become broke at high levels.

[pisces2473]

Really? Why, if you don't mind my asking? I'm having a hard time coming up with any negatives for it.
No prob. He doesn't really like online banking and all that stuff. He studied internet fraud at great detail in grad school, so I think it rubbed off on him! He just likes to SEE his money. Whatever. He's not into ATM depositing his money either, which is a pain b/c he freaks out about getting to the bank on Saturdays before it closes. Maybe with time, he'll change.

[pisces2473]

I would imagine. Maybe it will be easier when you're married?
If all of our accounts were at the same bank, and all were linked with the online banking, we could probably just e-bank, and transfer the money needed in each account. I think it'll be much easier when we're married.

[WorkInProgress]

No prob. He doesn't really like online banking and all that stuff. He studied internet fraud at great detail in grad school, so I think it rubbed off on him! He just likes to SEE his money. Whatever. He's not into ATM depositing his money either, which is a pain b/c he freaks out about getting to the bank on Saturdays before it closes. Maybe with time, he'll change.

Ah. I can understand that. (Does he have similar problems with online shopping?)

[pisces2473]

Yeah, I'm sure there are.

For me, I would be more afraid of resentment after marriage - for my spending and resentment for my husband's spending. It's one thing to overlook that debt from before the marriage, it's another when the DH has to go out and get the latest 60 inch plasma without talking to you first. Or even small things that add up like eating lunch out every day or whatever. I guess that's where similar spending habits become important. Personally, I think that when I get married I would like to have 90% of our stuff shared, but I'd also like a small amount of my own money to be just my own so I could spend it however I wanted. And of course that amount would be mutually agreed on, whether it's a percentage or just a flat dollar amt.
Yup, I like that arrangement. I like having a set amount of money to blow on my own crap.

[pisces2473]

Ah. I can understand that. (Does he have similar problems with online shopping?)
He'll do it when absolutely necessary.

[WorkInProgress]

Does direct deposit have anything to do with the internet? I was under the impression that it's basically bank to bank.

[pisces2473]

Does direct deposit have anything to do with the internet? I was under the impression that it's basically bank to bank.
Well, I think the transactions are actually done online. But it's more of him wanting to SEE his money than any internet fears or suspicions.

[WorkInProgress]

Well, I think the transactions are actually done online. But it's more of him wanting to SEE his money than any internet fears or suspicions.

That makes sense. I am definitely not like this, though. If I see it, I spend it. If I can't see it, "it's not there."

[pisces2473]

What can I say? The guy's old fashioned about some things :D

[Kitty]

I am also leary of depositing ANYTHING into an ATM. After working at a bank, I know that there's a lot of human error involved in doing that. Especially when you deposit cash.

[cheshrcarol]

I am also leary of depositing ANYTHING into an ATM. After working at a bank, I know that there's a lot of human error involved in doing that. Especially when you deposit cash.
I refuse to deposit cash into my bank's atm because they put a hold on it for 2 business days. I find that ridiculous. It's cash, not a check! Just effing making it available when someone records the deposits.

[WorkInProgress]

I am also leary of depositing ANYTHING into an ATM. After working at a bank, I know that there's a lot of human error involved in doing that. Especially when you deposit cash.

:eek: Well, I dont really use ATMs anyway. *phew* I used them far more often when I was in a foreign country and needed cash for something. Here, I think I've used ATMs (for withdrawals only) 3 times ever.

[Kitty]

They're fine for withdrawls..but when you deposit cash, the envelope actually gets opened at the end of the day by a bank employee and the money is counted and collected. Some sort of paper note is stuffed in the envelope that says "x amount was in cash" or whatever. Too much room for error...

[and1grad]

So you're saying that, hypothetically, you* are best off partnering with somebody who is debt-free, or at least only in debt comparable to what you've got going on, in order to prevent this from being an issue, if I'm reading you right? And that you'd need to be earning comparably, to offset this as well, so nobody's taking care of more than the other person? That a person's level of debt would have a lot to do with the future of a relationship, other factors not withstanding?
Actually thats not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, AT THE VERY LEAST, have a means of paying down your own debt. Also, I said that I think money problems break up a lot of marriages.

[sparky88]

Trust has to be earned. I wouldn’t marry a woman I didn’t trust. I’m just against living off of two incomes as if it were one. A lot of women I’ve met seem to think “ Okay you pay 1000 a month for you place and I pay about the same. Why don’t we get a $2000 a month place”? This type of thing isn’t smart financially. If the space is required then it may be justified. But 9 times out of 10 I’d wager it’s not. This is how people become broke at high levels.

I am a married woman and I definetly agree with this. I think it is very wise to live off one income, if possible. It gives a family unit more financial freedom and room to make important decisions. My husband and I put our paychecks into the same account to pay for bills, etc and also take our savings from that. But in all honesty, we easily live off his income so my income goes towards savings and debt.

[wordsmith]

Actually thats not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, AT THE VERY LEAST, have a means of paying down your own debt. Also, I said that I think money problems break up a lot of marriages.

Right, but my question assumed that the hypothetical person did actually have the means and was paying down debt, chipping away at it...just that this could very well leave the person unable to contribute an equivalent amount to his or her partner in terms of shared expenses, his or her share of household stuff, general living expenses. If the person is instead focusing primarily on paying off their own debt and living pretty frugally in all other regards.

When I asked if that would make a difference, cause resentment, etc. and if people's finances were not comparable (i.e. one person makes a lot more, one person owes a lot more, even if they CAN pay it, it defrays money that would be freed up to be spent elsewhere), would it be an issue, I thought your response was that eventually, it would become a problem.

[EmberMae]

I’ve seen to many failed relationships to put my trust in a woman financially. I don’t ever want to be in a position where a woman and I break up and I’m left with bills I can’t pay on my own. I’m a pretty ambitious guy so I figured that I would always make more money than the woman I’m dating lol. I’ve had some surprises. One of the surprises was a nurse in NV making $80,000 hha. I want to set it up so that regardless of who I marry I buy the house in my name my salary is able to pay all the bills of the house regardless of whether she is there or not. This way if my woman is a high (or not) earning she can bring home her check and do with it as she pleases.

Trust has to be earned. I wouldn’t marry a woman I didn’t trust. I’m just against living off of two incomes as if it were one. A lot of women I’ve met seem to think “ Okay you pay 1000 a month for you place and I pay about the same. Why don’t we get a $2000 a month place”? This type of thing isn’t smart financially. If the space is required then it may be justified. But 9 times out of 10 I’d wager it’s not. This is how people become broke at high levels.

Um, you're kind of contradicting yourself here. I totally understand the idea of being able to live on one income so you have the rest for savings / emergencies / discretionary spending. (unrealistic as it may be for most people). But when you say that you don't trust women and you want to make sure the house is only in your name that kind of rubs me the wrong way. Maybe you think you're being a nice guy giving out free housing, but as an adult I would want partial ownership in the house I'm living in. I wouldn't want to feel like I was living in "his" house.

[and1grad]

Right, but my question assumed that the hypothetical person did actually have the means and was paying down debt, chipping away at it...just that this could very well leave the person unable to contribute an equivalent amount to his or her partner in terms of shared expenses, his or her share of household stuff, general living expenses. If the person is instead focusing primarily on paying off their own debt and living pretty frugally in all other regards.

When I asked if that would make a difference, cause resentment, etc. and if people's finances were not comparable (i.e. one person makes a lot more, one person owes a lot more, even if they CAN pay it, it defrays money that would be freed up to be spent elsewhere), would it be an issue, I thought your response was that eventually, it would become a problem.
I think the problem is that you're asking a lot of questions as one and its become kinda convoluted. If ALL you can pay for in a household is your own loan/cc debt, to me, thats not really being able to manage it. That means, you have so much debt, compared to what you earn, that its all you can do to just make the payment. If, as a household, thats what you've decided to do, then it wouldnt be a problem, but if someone feels like you're never able to pull your own weight, however it may be, then its gonna eventually become a problem.

[wordsmith]

So, essentially, things DO need to be even, then (re: the pulling your own weight thing)?

[Kitty]

So, essentially, things DO need to be even, then (re: the pulling your own weight thing)?

Both people could pull their own weight and their financial situations might not be equal.

[WorkInProgress]

Both people could pull their own weight and their financial situations might not be equal.

Totally agree. (IMO, like in my parents' relationship. Mom pulls her own weight, but hasn't had an outside income pretty much since they got pregnant. That's a drastic difference in individual financial contributions.)

[cache]

I believe the free-market system of relationships inherently answers a lot of these questions. Sure there are situations where there is a big difference. But people who don't make a lot/have a lot of debt, typically don't do the same things as people who do make a lot, so your odds of meeting someone who is financially vastly different is small. As equal as we want to believe everything is, there is a big socio-economic division in the US.

[pisces2473]

I believe the free-market system of relationships inherently answers a lot of these questions. Sure there are situations where there is a big difference. But people who don't make a lot/have a lot of debt, typically don't do the same things as people who do make a lot, so your odds of meeting someone who is financially vastly different is small. As equal as we want to believe everything is, there is a big socio-economic division in the US.
That's true. My FI and I had very similar upbringings--moms stayed home, dads worked at the same company their entire work lives, blue collar stuff. Similar types of vacations and family activities. Even similar ethnic backgrounds.

[Suidoken]

I never said I don’t trust women. I don’t put my trust in women financially. What I was getting at with the house bit was by the time I’m getting married I will probably already be in a big house. I wouldn’t feel the need to go out combine incomes and get a bigger house unless we had a lot of kids together. I feel the same regardless of how much a woman earns. For a brief stint I was pursuing a doctor who made 100K but I wouldn’t jump on her back and demand we combine incomes. What is hers is hers.

I know this will be unpopular but I want a prenuptial before marriage as well. I have to much to lose. I see first hand everyday through my co-worker the cost of a failed marriage. I’m not going to bust my butt everyday get additional schooling so a woman can decide to leave and get half of what I own. I say if we break up keep what’s yours and I’ll keep what’s mine. I’ve seen to many divorces.

So I guess this makes me a QLC villain?

[wordsmith]

That's true. My FI and I had very similar upbringings--moms stayed home, dads worked at the same company their entire work lives, blue collar stuff. Similar types of vacations and family activities. Even similar ethnic backgrounds.

Every guy I've ever dated who didn't have a stay at home mom has taken serious issue with stay at home moms.

[Kitty]

That's true. My FI and I had very similar upbringings--moms stayed home, dads worked at the same company their entire work lives, blue collar stuff. Similar types of vacations and family activities. Even similar ethnic backgrounds.

Really? That's interesting.

D and I had vastly different upbringings. However, we do have a very similar ethnic background.

[and1grad]

Both people could pull their own weight and their financial situations might not be equal.
Right. Thats why I worded it that way. I know what words is getting at, with the financial hypotheticals, but it just doesnt come down to just that.

[pisces2473]

Really? That's interesting.

D and I had vastly different upbringings. However, we do have a very similar ethnic background.
Yeah...it's so weird how similar our families operated.

I'm Polish and Irish, mostly...and C is Slovak and Irish.

[Kitty]

Yup, I'm German, Irish, Polish and he's German, Irish, French. Odd.

[wordsmith]

I believe the free-market system of relationships inherently answers a lot of these questions. Sure there are situations where there is a big difference. But people who don't make a lot/have a lot of debt, typically don't do the same things as people who do make a lot, so your odds of meeting someone who is financially vastly different is small. As equal as we want to believe everything is, there is a big socio-economic division in the US.

This is kind of what I was getting at with my comment earlier about wondering if the only answer is that two people can't really successfully be together unless their finances/debt/earnings are really comparable, or you're always treading on perilously thin ice of potential resentment and financially-related discord.

Basically, it's just another slant on the "people stick to their own kind" thing, the "own kind" in this case being people who have x amount of debt.

[pisces2473]

I can see the selection buttons on match.com now:

Debt-free!
Less than 5K
Under 10K
etc etc etc
In hiding from the IRS

[Kitty]

I can see the selection buttons on match.com now:

Debt-free!
Less than 5K
Under 10K
etc etc etc
In hiding from the IRS

Ha!

Honestly, I dont' think I've ever really discussed my finances that much in detail with anyone...including D.

[WorkInProgress]

I can see the selection buttons on match.com now:

Debt-free!
Less than 5K
Under 10K
etc etc etc
In hiding from the IRS

Awesome! You should write them a email with this suggestion. ;):

[pisces2473]

Ha!

Honestly, I dont' think I've ever really discussed my finances that much in detail with anyone...including D.
Really? Do you think this will change when you go to buy a house?

[cache]

But even so, I think it is just proximity - you meet people of a similiar financial persuasion. However, it doesn't mean that differences are not possible, or workable. I know I would have no problem taking on the debt of my wife, as long as that "faucet" is already turned off, like I mentioned before. Who cares, it's just money, or debt, does it really matter? Not to me...

I just think the probability is greater to meet someone financially similiar.

[wordsmith]

I can see the selection buttons on match.com now:

Debt-free!
Less than 5K
Under 10K
etc etc etc
In hiding from the IRS

LOL! I'm honestly amazed that when it comes to online dating, they DON'T poll you for that...simply putting your dollar worth in terms of salary seems too leave too much room for evasion. :rolleyes:

[Kitty]

Really? Do you think this will change when you go to buy a house?

Yup, of course, then we'll both need to sit down and look at each others finances in detail. For now, it's not as important to be so detailed. We both know the basics.

[wordsmith]

I know I would have no problem taking on the debt of my wife, as long as that "faucet" is already turned off, like I mentioned before. Who cares, it's just money, or debt, does it really matter? Not to me...

To you, but how common is that, I wonder?

You're really judged on stuff like this, in pretty much all facets of life. I have no reason to think that that will change.

[cache]

To you, but how common is that, I wonder?

You're really judged on stuff like this, in pretty much all facets of life. I have no reason to think that that will change.

I know, and that sux. I was actually going to start a thread about growing up with not a lot. I hear so many people with the line "I want my kids to have more than I had growing up." But what was so wrong with the way we grew up? Sure I didn't have a ton of things, but I like how I turned out and what I leanred as a kid...in some ways, it makes me want to implant myself firmly in the middle class, and ignore promotions, etc.

[wordsmith]

I know, and that sux. I was actually going to start a thread about growing up with not a lot. I hear so many people with the line "I want my kids to have more than I had growing up." But what was so wrong with the way we grew up? Sure I didn't have a ton of things, but I like how I turned out and what I leanred as a kid...in some ways, it makes me want to implant myself firmly in the middle class, and ignore promotions, etc.

I actually am really PROUD of who I am, and in many, many ways, who I am has a WHOLE lot to do with the fact that I grew up in a family that really, really financially struggled.

And, yeah, I really do bristle at the fact that a whole lot of people have preconceived notions of who I am, what kind of partner I'd be, what my patterns and habits are, and if I'm a "good risk," even in a romantic relationship sense, due to this background.

[ywt]

My fiancee just finished med school, and as a result, she has a pretty staggering amount of debt in the form of student loans. Her intent is to pay them all off herself, but there was one of the "smaller loans" that I had to help her with. The loan was contingent on her going into a particular field of medicine. If she doesn't go into that field, the interest that has accrued over the life of the loan is compounded 4-fold come this June when she starts her residency program.

She has much more debt than I as a result of these student loans (of which there will be no more, so this "pattern" won't continue). She took the loan out with the full intention of going into the designated field, but due to circumstances beyond her control, that is shaping up to be quite difficult to fulfill. I'm helping her pay off this particular loan with the idea that I'll be paid back at 0% interest. As many others have said, I'm willing to do this because once we're married, it's now our debt.

I don't know how to classify our relationship as strong or not strong, as I feel my ranking can by no means be universal, but rather merely my own personal ranking, but finances have never been an issue between us in the least.

[biodork]

I I think that if the SO created the debt, the SO should be solely responsible. Especially if the debt was a result of foolish spending. Why should I be at fault for something that was done years before I met my spouse? I'm sure people will reply that marriage or an LTR is a team effort, but if I was able to control my spending/credit card use, why should I have to contribute my earnings towards your problem? I agree that a marriage/LTR is team effort, but when it comes from debt that I had nothing to do with...then I feel a little ambivalent.
I completely agree with you. And that's how it is with my bf and I. David has about $1600 of debt on my credit card, because he couldn't afford school or to fix his car at the time, both important. I have a high limit, so I paid for it. But he's in the process of paying me back, including the interest accumulated. We will help each other out when it's smaller things, but for something that expensive I wouldn't expect him to pay it for me, and he thinks the same.

[spiritedaway]

This is a great topic!

For unmarried couples (just dating or living together), I personally think that it's good to keep finances separate.

For married couples, it makes more sense to pool the income together.

The issue here is "past debts". The thing is, I've heard horror stories about people who get into all these debts and expect their spouse to help pay it off since it's "shared debt". If someone's debt was not unreasonably high and they are making progress on reducing the debt, then I am more willing to overlook it.

If it's a huge debt (and I know it sounds bad), I would have serious second thoughts no matter how much I love the person (been there, done there in my own family). Too much debt can break a marriage with resentment from the party that did not accrue the debt, period. There are exceptions, but that's just it: exceptions.

I bought and paid for my own car. I paid for school. I live well within (actually, well under) my means. I pay my own bills. Theoretically, if the other person can contribute only so much to household expenses due to other debt, I can understand it and not hold it against him. But again, how high of a debt you have does affect things. The point is, I'm a saver and generally am not attracted to a huge spender. I worked hard to be debt free (which gives me the financial to do some of the things I wanted to do, and in essence, makes me happy). And anyone with a LOT of debt is going to crimp my happiness because finances is a big thing for me.

And I think I am that way because I worked really hard to become debt free (not saying that others don't). I come from a low-income family and I never asked for much, so finances is a stickler for me. Maybe some people will get what I'm saying. A lot of choices I made (including college) has to do with whether it's financially workable for me, so I'm actually less forgiving when people complain about the huge debts they get themselves into. (emergencies are excluded; things happen, I know)

The point is, if you have a lot of debt, then I am going to have second thoughts, hands-down. Whether it's worth it will depend on how much I care for the person and how high that debt is.

But yes, I can understand the mentality of why some guys feel that they have more to lose financially when it comes to divorce time...

[wordsmith]

If it's a huge debt (and I know it sounds bad), I would have serious second thoughts no matter how much I love the person (been there, done there in my own family). Too much debt can break a marriage with resentment from the party that did not accrue the debt, period. There are exceptions, but that's just it: exceptions.

I bought and paid for my own car. I paid for school. I live well within (actually, well under) my means. I pay my own bills. Theoretically, if the other person can contribute only so much to household expenses due to other debt, I can understand it and not hold it against him. But again, how high of a debt you have does affect things. The point is, I'm a saver and generally am not attracted to a huge spender. I worked hard to be debt free (which gives me the financial to do some of the things I wanted to do, and in essence, makes me happy). And anyone with a LOT of debt is going to crimp my happiness because finances is a big thing for me.

And I think I am that way because I worked really hard to become debt free (not saying that others don't). I come from a low-income family and I never asked for much, so finances is a stickler for me. Maybe some people will get what I'm saying. A lot of choices I made (including college) has to do with whether it's financially workable for me, so I'm actually less forgiving when people complain about the huge debts they get themselves into. (emergencies are excluded; things happen, I know)


I do get what you're saying. But one thing I want to point out is that you make a point about frugal people and huge spenders being bad to mix, and kind of powder kegs waiting to go off, and I agree with that. But coming into a relationship or marriage with debt doesn't mean a person is necessarily a huge spender, or that their spending habits are much more irresponsible than the person they're involved with...somebody who has issues with huge spenders might be drawn to me, because I live more frugally than anybody I know, and always have. They might assume that because I don't have a cell phone, or cable or satellite or any TV, drive an economy car that I didn't have to take out a loan for, got the cheapest apt. available in the cheapest area available, do without lots of amenities that many of us take for granted, and clothe and entertain myself on a budget, I'm debt-free. But I'm not, I have an average amount of debt that's tied to funding my schooling. None of that is continuing to accrue (other than in terms of interest), but it will take me some time to chip it away, realistically. So, being a frugal spender doesn't mean a person is debt-free, at all.

My college funding choice isn't something I regret, it's not unreasonably high, it's not something I can't manage, or something I expect anybody else to take on. But I also don't expect to be judged and discounted as a person based on having made that choice, which some of the more judgmental folks would doubtless assess as "stupid" in terms of expenditures. But it does mean that I don't have much money to spare. I don't expect anybody to take care of me or pay off my debt. Just to be undestanding that I can't contribute quite probably what they can, should sharing other expenses become an issue. Just don't judge me or look down on me for my choices, or my chosen career path, which earns a pretty modest living. My mode of living is by necessity modest, and my ability to share in finances will quite honestly be modest, as well...whether I am supporting myself, or sharing expenses with somebody else.

It hurts me a lot to realize that somebody who otherwise professes to care for me would judge me on that, or assess my worth as somehow lacking or be viewed as an unfortunate liability rather than a deserving, lovable, talented, attractive person. But I feel like that's pretty likely, based on a bit of what I've read.

[cache]

The point is, I'm a saver and generally am not attracted to a huge spender. I worked hard to be debt free (which gives me the financial to do some of the things I wanted to do, and in essence, makes me happy). And anyone with a LOT of debt is going to crimp my happiness because finances is a big thing for me.

Ahhh...the free market system at work. :)

I might take issue with someone who would reject a relationship because of 1. school debt or 2. medical debt, though. There are exceptions to this, but in general...

[wordsmith]

Ahhh...the free market system at work. :)

I might take issue with someone who would reject a relationship because of 1. school debt

But that's exactly what I'm talking about. :(

[wordsmith]

Another thing that's interesting to me is that I can't even really bounce this off or commiserate with my parents, like I often do things that distress me...because this is another thing to add to the list of things they have literally no experience in dealing with.

They, like many others of their generation, were married as young adults, a trend that's obviously shifting upward and has been most of our our lives. My dad didn't have to worry about the debt he was marrying when he and my mom got hitched, because she was 20 years old, went from her parents to her husband and hadn't amassed any debt going to school or making her way on her own financially in the world. My mom didn't have to worry about the debt she was marrying when she married my dad, because at 25, he'd paid for his public university degree, which was reasonably priced, free and clear by then. They started married life with a totally clean slate. None of which is extremely likely for most people now. It stands to reason that the later in life you marry, the more time you've had to amass debt, and though you won't, necessarily, it's far more likely. They also grew up in a time and place when "credit," and "credit card" meant gas station charge cards and a line of in-house credit with a local grocer or other merchant, for most, and that was it.

So, no, they don't identify with any issue I might conceivably have with guys turning their nose up at joining finances with me, because they just don't have that realm of experience.

[NewMrs.]

Another thing that's interesting to me is that I can't even really bounce this off or commiserate with my parents, like I often do things that distress me...because this is another thing to add to the list of things they have literally no experience in dealing with.

They, like many others of their generation, were married as young adults, a trend that's obviously shifting upward and has been most of our our lives. My dad didn't have to worry about the debt he was marrying when he and my mom got hitched, because she was 20 years old, went from her parents to her husband and hadn't amassed any debt going to school or making her way on her own financially in the world. My mom didn't have to worry about the debt she was marrying when she married my dad, because at 25, he'd paid for his public university degree, which was reasonably priced, free and clear by then. They started married life with a totally clean slate. None of which is extremely likely for most people now. It stands to reason that the later in life you marry, the more time you've had to amass debt, and though you won't, necessarily, it's far more likely. They also grew up in a time and place when "credit," and "credit card" meant gas station charge cards and a line of in-house credit with a local grocer or other merchant, for most, and that was it.

So, no, they don't identify with any issue I might conceivably have with guys turning their nose up at joining finances with me, because they just don't have that realm of experience.

My parents also started out their married life debt-free. My dad lived at home when he went to college, and paid for his college degree as he went through school, so he had no student loans. My mother was 19 when they got married and had no debt of her own.

When I was in junior high, my mom went to Community College to get her Associate's degree, and she took out a student loan to do this. When she had trouble finding a job after graduation, my dad made the payments on her loan. After having no luck at the job search, my mom went back to school to get her nursing license. She took out more loans. She worked as a nurse for a few years, and then at the age of 44 found out that she was pregnant with my sister, so she quit her nursing job. Again, my dad paid my mother's student loans. Obviously I don't know all the details of their marital relationship, but I never had the impression that either of my parents had a problem with this arrangement.

[spiritedaway]

Jess, I do not mean to imply that a person who has debt is automatically a huge spender, or that someone can't be living frugally and still be in debt.
I brought up the saver/spender to illustrate the point that people (or at least I) tend to attracted to like-minded people (i.e I'm a saver so I tend to be attracted to those who knows how to save). Sorry if that part came across the wrong way.

Now, as far as college is concerned, it is a choice. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me why people chose what they do or where they go. Everyone has their reasons. They always do. You have yours. I have mine. This is all individual needs and preferences. If we want to look at the big picture, we can't focus on that. The point is, it is a choice because people know what they're getting themselves into (or at least, they should). Are those choices going to get judged? You bet they are, but tell me, how is it so much different from a person who thinks another person is being wasteful by buying a 82 inch plasma TV, precisely BECAUSE of we all see things through different lens. What is important to me may not be so important to you and vice versa...see what I'm saying?

And for the record, I don't like debts (making monthly payment is a royal pain), but I will say that not all debts are bad. Debt is a normal part of life. There are good debts (i.e. mortgage), bad debts (gambling; excessive spending) and necessary debt (food, clothes, health). But again, it does comes down to how much debt. You can love someone 100% and differences in finances can still make/break a marriage.

[NewMrs.]

I wanted to clarify a post I made yesterday under the "Credit Card" thread. I mentioned that my now-husband had $12,000 in credit card debt when I married him earlier this year, and that the two of us have since managed to pay it down to $9,000. My husband made alot of mistakes in college and right after college, and has thankfully learned from those mistakes and is committed to planning financially for our future.

I get angry at him that he ran up this debt in the first place, but I am still willing to work with him to pay it down. Since we are now married, our fortunes are tied together, and if WE don't pay this down, it will affect both of us. Its "our money." I consider his income and my income as "our income." He makes $20K more than I do and he bought a house several years before I met him. Therefore, I live in a house in which my husband's paycheck covers the mortgage, electricity, hot water, etc. My paycheck goes toward his credit card payments and our groceries and some other smaller stuff.

I am mainly frustrated because we have all these plans for the future and right now I feel as if the outstanding credit card debt will be an obstacle if we don't tackle it now. My husband wants to send our future kids to Catholic elementary and high school because his parents sent him there. I attended public elementary and high schools, so I feel as if this might be an extravagance we may not be able to afford. On the other hand, I want to be a stay-at-home mom for at least a few years. We probably won't be able to do either of these unless we start parenthood debt-free and stay debt-free.

So, yes, I consider my husband's debt to be "our debt" because it could potentially sink both of us.

[wordsmith]

Jess, I do not mean to imply that a person who has debt is automatically a huge spender, or that someone can't be living frugally and still be in debt.
I brought up the saver/spender to illustrate the point that people (or at least I) tend to attracted to like-minded people (i.e I'm a saver so I tend to be attracted to those who knows how to save). Sorry if that part came across the wrong way.

Now, as far as college is concerned, it is a choice. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me why people chose what they do or where they go. Everyone has their reasons. They always do. You have yours. I have mine. This is all individual needs and preferences. If we want to look at the big picture, we can't focus on that. The point is, it is a choice because people know what they're getting themselves into (or at least, they should). Are those choices going to get judged? You bet they are, but tell me, how is it so much different from a person who thinks another person is being wasteful by buying a 82 inch plasma TV, precisely BECAUSE of we all see things through different lens. What is important to me may not be so important to you and vice versa...see what I'm saying?

Of course, I do. I say all the time that my student loan is easy enough to put into perspective for myself, because it's actually less than the going rate for an off-the-lot SUV, which plenty of people take out a loan for, which to me is not any kind of investment, and assuredly not the kind my education was and is. And that's for sure a judgment call on my part, as far as what I deem a worthwhile personal expenditure of money.

But...and I feel like this is a BIG difference...I'm also not saying that if somebody I'm dating owes money on a plasma TV/brand new SUV they bought, they're OBVIOUSLY not anybody I could stay with, because, well, who wants to marry plasma TV/brand new SUV debt? By contrast, I DO feel like more than a few people are of the opinion of "Ew, you're in debt, why would I want to marry your debt?" when my debt has to do with schooling-related expenditures, and is less than your average auto loan debt, all told.

And it's not that I "didn't know what I got myself into," in terms of borrowing for school, and I pay back just fine, although I make sacrifices to do so, willingly. I didn't, however, REALLY know "what I was getting myself into," because I honestly DIDN'T ever imagine that anybody would see me as a "bad monetary risk" to get romantically involved with because I owe money. That one kinda blindsided me, to be honest. Didn't actually know that by taking out a year's worth of tuition in student loans and paying for my books and sundries with a credit card while in undergrad, I would effectively be resigning myself to a justified lifetime of singlehood. They don't tell you that at your exit interview, for some reason.

And, you're right...college, where you go, how you finance it, IS a choice, and I made mine very wisely for myself, I felt at the time and continue to feel. But one thing I didn't do at the time, and this was wrong, I guess, was realize that I had to anticipate whether or not a line of future potential spouses or S.O.s would approve of that choice made at 17, as well.

And for the record, I don't like debts (making monthly payment is a royal pain), but I will say that not all debts are bad. Debt is a normal part of life. There are good debts (i.e. mortgage), bad debts (gambling; excessive spending) and necessary debt (food, clothes, health). But again, it does comes down to how much debt. You can love someone 100% and differences in finances can still make/break a marriage.

I've said it before, though, and I'll say it again...nobody wants to be judged as nothing but the sum of their bank balance/loan payment coupon book. If that's all I boil down to (or if that's the absolute most important thing about me), to a person who otherwise professes to care for me, something is very, very wrong.

Edit to add...this is possibly going to come off like I'm angry with YOU, which obv. isn't true. I'm just very, very disheartened. I always thought I was making good choices for myself, and still do, and am and was proud of myself and my choices and accomplishments. But it still sucks to realize that others are like, "Um...no."

[NewMrs.]

By contrast, I DO feel like more than a few people are of the opinion of "Ew, you're in debt, why would I want to marry your debt?" when my debt has to do with schooling-related expenditures, and is less than your average auto loan debt, all told.

And it's not that I "didn't know what I got myself into," in terms of borrowing for school, and I pay back just fine, although I make sacrifices to do so, willingly. I didn't, however, REALLY know "what I was getting myself into," because I honestly DIDN'T ever imagine that anybody would see me as a "bad monetary risk" to get romantically involved with because I owe money. That one kinda blindsided me, to be honest. Didn't actually know that by taking out a year's worth of tuition in student loans and paying for my books and sundries with a credit card while in undergrad, I would effectively be resigning myself to a justified lifetime of singlehood. They don't tell you that at your exit interview, for some reason.

And, you're right...college, where you go, how you finance it, IS a choice, and I made mine very wisely for myself, I felt at the time and continue to feel. But one thing I didn't do at the time, and this was wrong, I guess, was realize that I had to anticipate whether or not a line of future potential spouses or S.O.s would approve of that choice made at 17, as well.



I've said it before, though, and I'll say it again...nobody wants to be judged as nothing but the sum of their bank balance/loan payment coupon book. If that's all I boil down to (or if that's the absolute most important thing about me), to a person who otherwise professes to care for me, something is very, very wrong.

Edit to add...this is possibly going to come off like I'm angry with YOU, which obv. isn't true. I'm just very, very disheartened. I always thought I was making good choices for myself, and still do, and am and was proud of myself and my choices and accomplishments. But it still sucks to realize that others are like, "Um...no."


I don't discuss finances in person alot with other people my own age. (I don't even discuss it with my two sisters who are out of college now and working.) However, I didn't think that this "Ew - you're in debt" or "Ew - you don't make much money" mentality is that common, at least not where I live. I only know of one guy my age who is obsessed with the salaries and debt level of anybody he dates seriously, and that guy's girlfriend is totally high maintenance and they fight alot, so I don't think he has a very healthy view of relationships. I do believe that it is important to seriously understand the financial health of your SO before the actual wedding. However, in your case Jess I don't think that your student debt would be any reason to "blacklist" you from a serious relationship.

I think that its an asset that you already have your degree. Sure, you have some outstanding debt from it, but not nearly as much as it would cost if you were married with kids and suddenly had to start college from scratch and come up with four years of tuition.

[wordsmith]

However, I didn't think that this "Ew - you're in debt" or "Ew - you don't make much money" mentality is that common, at least not where I live.

Not for me, either, mostly because comparatively few make "that much money." Which is why it didn't really occur to me, most of my life.

[spiritedaway]

Yeah, the study of financial markets is fascinating. :)

I briefly mentioned it in the other post that there are different kinds of debt. When you're sick, it's out of our control so medical debt is an exception, as well as debt for helping out family in need.

Among all the debts out there, school debt is the grayest area. There have been so many debates out there where people argue that why someone who got into $120K worth of debt over 4 years (assuming 30K a year) at a private school can't get a similarly solid education at a public school for signicantly less? It's a common debate so I don't want to go there again, but it tends to be heated because it's the gray area.

I haven't been put in a situation where I would reject a relationship because the other person has school debt, but if they have 120K worth of school debt? Yeah, I'm going to have some second thoughts...(not on the person himself, but on the debt itself. Debt, in essence, is borrowing money today on tomorrow's dime. If I want to build a future with someone and a lot of that future is already tied to that debt, that future is going to be that much harder to build.

Hmmmm....maybe that's really the root of the problem, and not the marrying into debt. It ties in with MrsNew post too.

Ahhh...the free market system at work. :)

I might take issue with someone who would reject a relationship because of 1. school debt or 2. medical debt, though. There are exceptions to this, but in general...

[wordsmith]

Yeah, the study of financial markets is fascinating. :)

I briefly mentioned it in the other post that there are different kinds of debt. When you're sick, it's out of our control so medical debt is an exception, as well as debt for helping out family in need.

Among all the debts out there, school debt is the grayest area. There have been so many debates out there where people argue that why someone who got into $120K worth of debt over 4 years (assuming 30K a year) at a private school can't get a similarly solid education at a public school for signicantly less? It's a common debate so I don't want to go there again, but it tends to be heated because it's the gray area.

I haven't been put in a situation where I would reject a relationship because the other person has school debt, but if they have 120K worth of school debt? Yeah, I'm going to have some second thoughts...(not on the person himself, but on the debt itself. Debt, in essence, is borrowing money today on tomorrow's dime. If I want to build a future with someone and a lot of that future is already tied to that debt, that future is going to be that much harder to build.

Hmmmm....maybe that's really the root of the problem, and not the marrying into debt. It ties in with MrsNew post too.

But, as in my case, four years of private school education (at full rate, would have totalled around $120k, yup, with room/board, fees, etc. figured in) actually worked out with aid to less than a quarter of that, the same rate as most of the public schools I applied to sans aid. Been mentioned numerous times, and really neither here nor there, but why should, as I said, an average amount of educational debt (i.e. NOT anything in the realm of 120k) be something that causes others to snort at my choices, as best, and why should it be something that causes prospective romantic relationships to hinge on serious reservations that a future is possible, at worst? That's where my dejectedness comes in.

[WorkInProgress]

However, I didn't think that this "Ew - you're in debt" or "Ew - you don't make much money" mentality is that common, at least not where I live.

I don't see this either, like I already said. It may be prevalent and I may be oblivious. However, particularly in your case, Words, when your debt isn't that much, comparatively speaking (like you say, lots of people have car loans for more), I would be shocked if anyone decided that you weren't "worth it" because of that. (And, frankly, if somebody decides you're not worth the cost of a car, it's really his loss. He's definitely not worth it.)

[cache]

Yeah, the study of financial markets is fascinating. :)

I meant the free-market relationship system.:D

[and1grad]

Among all the debts out there, school debt is the grayest area. There have been so many debates out there where people argue that why someone who got into $120K worth of debt over 4 years (assuming 30K a year) at a private school can't get a similarly solid education at a public school for signicantly less? It's a common debate so I don't want to go there again, but it tends to be heated because it's the gray area.
Totally agree with that...'cept the part about not wanting to go there cuz it gets heated. Its cold outside anyway. :evil:

[WorkInProgress]

The point is, if you have a lot of debt, then I am going to have second thoughts, hands-down. Whether it's worth it will depend on how much I care for the person and how high that debt is.

This I agree with. (And for those keeping track, this does not contradict earlier statements--simply having debt I don't see as an issue. Stuff stemming from that--what it's from, how much it is, etc. can be an issue.)

[WorkInProgress]

Another thing that's interesting to me is that I can't even really bounce this off or commiserate with my parents, like I often do things that distress me...because this is another thing to add to the list of things they have literally no experience in dealing with.
...
So, no, they don't identify with any issue I might conceivably have with guys turning their nose up at joining finances with me, because they just don't have that realm of experience.

My parents share a relatively similar experience with yours. They were both young and living hand to mouth when the met, dated and married. They had no credit of any kind and no debt either (and, actually didn't until well after I was born. Their first CC was at JC Penney because they needed a crib.)

But, they can definitely identify with any issue that some guy might have with me over finances, or any issue that I might have with a guy over finances, having considerable experience with family members who financial habits don't match their own, and having worked very hard and sacrificed (and, in some ways, gotten lucky) to make their own situation (and mine) what it is.

[wordsmith]

But, they can definitely identify with any issue that some guy might have with me over finances, or any issue that I might have with a guy over finances, having considerable experience with family members who financial habits don't match their own, and having worked very hard and sacrificed (and, in some ways, gotten lucky) to make their own situation (and mine) what it is.

It's not that they couldn't identify with some guy not wanting to get involved with somebody who's swirling the financial drain. It's not that they couldn't identify with the idea of making sure that spending and saving habits are in line in a relationship.

But they'd be shocked if I were to tell them that having borrowed money for college makes me, in the eyes of some, a bad credit risk to attach one's self to, and does, in fact, make a difference in terms of somebody wanting to be with you.

[WorkInProgress]

But they'd be shocked if I were to tell them that having borrowed money for college makes me, in the eyes of some, a bad credit risk to attach one's self to, and does, in fact, make a difference in terms of somebody wanting to be with you.

Mine would be shocked about that, too. Quite honestly, I think a lot of people would be. (Unless it were a really high amount of money and you'd no idea how to pay it back, but that's not what we're talking about.)

[wordsmith]

Or if I had defaulted on my student loans, and this type of thing was going to make joint purchases or financing with a spouse in the future a difficult or impossible thing. Also not the case, though.

I guess I just bristle at the implication that it was somehow irresponsible of me to borrow to obtain my degree, and that that perceived irresponsibility is a big old red flag.

[WorkInProgress]

I guess I just bristle at the implication that it was somehow irresponsible of me to borrow to obtain my degree, and that that perceived irresponsibility is a big old red flag.

Understandable. However, you've got great justification (IMO) for your loans. Plus, most people, it seems, must borrow to finance a college education, no matter where they go, so it's not like this issue/situation is unique. I did. It's true, I could have gone somewhere less expensive (although where I did go was pretty reasonably-priced, IMO, and I don't feel ripped off by it), but those options weren't best for me and my particular financial situation. And, if that's something that's going to make some guy not want to be with me, then it's a fair bet that were were going to have a lot of issues to work through and a lot of fights about money, because it's not one of those "agree to disagree" subjects, so it's probably best that we're not together anyway (me and this hypothetical person). (And, honestly, I'd likely be more upset about being perceived as irresponsible than a lot of other things.)

[and1grad]

I guess it depends on where your priorities lie. Personally, it would've been irresponsible of me to pursue a 120k degree education knowing it would have me in debt for at least a decade after I finished school. Especially when there are schools that cost considerably less than that while offering comparable, if not superior, services.

[wordsmith]

(And, honestly, I'd likely be more upset about being perceived as irresponsible than a lot of other things.)

Word. Picking on my finances, my call to responsibility, and my intelligence do it for me.

[MetFanL]

Ya know, I've been thinking about this a lot. I've already taken a bunch of steps to pay off my debt as quickly as possible and, yes, my debt is mainly poor spending habits. However, that is the ONLY place I've ever been irresponsible and the thought that I would become "undate-able" because of this really p*sses me off. I couldn't imagine EVER judging anyone like that.

My ex has debt like I do and I would never stop dating him because of that. Would I want to help him work towards paying it off? Sure, but I wouldn't call it a dealbreaker. There are bigger problems in life than debt, IMO.

And, Words, because of everything I've just said, I just don't think you should waste your time worrying about this. You're an awesome package and if the only thing in your "Con" column is debt from school... the dude is just looking for an excuse. Ridiculous.

[Josie]

And, Words, because of everything I've just said, I just don't think you should waste your time worrying about this. You're an awesome package and if the only thing in your "Con" column is debt from school... the dude is just looking for an excuse. Ridiculous.

For reals. :rolleyes:

And it's pretty much one of the lamest excuses I've ever heard, talk about superficial. I mean, way to give a shit about you as a person and how the loans ENABLED you to attend the university of your choosing because it is what suited you and makes you the person you are today. I call B.S!

[spiritedaway]

This is it. Your priorities. I've said it before that I don't take issue with having debt, but I did, in fact, say that *I* would be less inclined (or have second thoughts) about wanting to be involve with someone with a lot of debt (the key, and I emphasize, is "a lot", and that is relative).

If someone can't see eye-to-eye, it's likely that that person's priorities are (or were) different from mine. Just because his priorities are different from me does not make either one of us wrong (it's not mutually exclusive), but someone will eventually have to decide if it's worth it (it's not an automatic dealbreaker, but someone still has to make that decision.

It's really no worse or better than we not seeing eye-to eye on major relationship issues that people have to deal with: i.e. one wants kids, the other doesn't. one believes in X religion and the other is an atheist. one's looking for a long term and the other is for a fling, and so forth. There are a lot more shallow dealbreakers out there than debts.

Jess, your situation is obviously different. If you say your debt is the price of an off-the lot SUV (I don't know how much they costs, but I am guessing 30K-40K range), that isn't bad at all and you're chipping away at it. But let's say we create a fictional person who has the *exact* situation as you, and instead he decided to pay it off by living at home or taking two jobs or three to pay it off so that he could do (fill in the blanks). Does it make your choices wrong? No. His? NO! You're just in two difference places. Maybe you value your independence of living on your own better than crimping your happiness by living at home. Maybe you value your time more than having to work 2-3 jobs. To each his own. If two people can reconcile the difference to make the relationship, great, but it's not so black and white to say that the other person is shallow just because they have reservations about someone's else debt.

Having said that, I can see where you're coming. Your major beef, it seems, is that there is something inherently wrong with placing a dollar value to a person. And that I agree with you wholeheartedly on you on that, but it's the romantic view. In an ideal world, it shouldn't matter. In reality, if someone has $120K in debt, someone's going to pause and have some second thoughts about the "what-ifs". If you (not you personally, but in the general sense) don't have second thoughts over a big debt and the "what if it doesn't work out'), then either you're lying about it, the one with the debt, or never had to had to pay for someone else's debt to know what a dent it can do to you. Your (again, not you personally, but in general) wanting to be loved for who you are is one I also wholeheartedly agree with, but who YOU are are also made up on many individual components, and that includes the choices you made, how you're raised, the list goes on.

I know we can hash this out and still not get anywhere. This is partially why I tend to stay away from financial threads, when I could help it. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

(P.S. Thanks for the edit, because it did appeared that you were somehow angry with me for holding a different perspective)

I guess it depends on where your priorities lie. Personally, it would've been irresponsible of me to pursue a 120k degree education knowing it would have me in debt for at least a decade after I finished school. Especially when there are schools that cost considerably less than that while offering comparable, if not superior, services.

[wordsmith]

Jess, your situation is obviously different. If you say your debt is the price of an off-the lot SUV (I don't know how much they costs, but I am guessing 30K-40K range), that isn't bad at all and you're chipping away at it. But let's say we create a fictional person who has the *exact* situation as you, and instead he decided to pay it off by living at home or taking two jobs or three to pay it off so that he could do (fill in the blanks). Does it make your choices wrong? No. His? NO! You're just in two difference places. Maybe you value your independence of living on your own better than crimping your happiness by living at home. Maybe you value your time more than having to work 2-3 jobs. To each his own. If two people can reconcile the difference to make the relationship, great, but it's not so black and white to say that the other person is shallow just because they have reservations about someone's else debt.

Having said that, I can see where you're coming. Your major beef, it seems, is that there is something inherently wrong with placing a dollar value to a person. And that I agree with you wholeheartedly on you on that, but it's the romantic view. In an ideal world, it shouldn't matter. In reality, if someone has $120K in debt, someone's going to pause and have some second thoughts about the "what-ifs". If you (not you personally, but in the general sense) don't have second thoughts over a big debt and the "what if it doesn't work out'), then either you're lying about it, the one with the debt, or never had to had to pay for someone else's debt to know what a dent it can do to you. Your (again, not you personally, but in general) wanting to be loved for who you are is one I also wholeheartedly agree with, but who YOU are are also made up on many individual components, and that includes the choices you made, how you're raised, the list goes on.

Actually, it's really just about it ALL coming down to the dollar value somebody assigns you, nothing else mattering. I keep hearing that there are shades of grey, but "You owe money, so I don't want to be connected to you" isn't very grey, it's pretty black and white. If a person has many different components to them, why, then, is that the one that counts for all? I don't personally think there's anything wrong with the choices I've made, how I was raised, but this opinion is evidently not shared. That's what hurts.

Also, my school debt is actually well below 30-40k. Doesn't it start to seem kind of stupid to anybody besides me that this is a deciding factor?

There's a lot of the oft-mentioned figure of $120k, as in, "If you have, say, 120k in debt, don't be surprised if you're a pariah," going around. But the fact is, I don't, and still feel pretty much like that pariah.

[MetFanL]

I think it's stupid, Jess. Maybe it's my thing, but I just don't see money as being the most important thing in the whole world and, if my partner has debt, we'll deal with it and figure it out together. End of story.

I mean, really? To put this in a dealbreaker category w/ having kids and religion? Unbelievable to me... I coudln't imagine being in love with someone and having the money conversation and saying, "Well, you have too much debt, so I'm out." Craziness. Like it's so horrible to stay in on Friday and Saturday together so you can pay off bills... Whatever would my SO and I do with that time? ;) :rolleyes:

[wordsmith]

To be honest, I don't think it's EVER likely that I will have compatible priorities with anybody else, when it comes to expenditures.

I don't spend significant money on anything but education. Most people I know, most peers of mine prioritize TOTALLY different things that I do. I don't spend on technology, or entertainment, or cars, or housing. I really only spend on schooling-related things, always have. Most people LIKE to spend their money on things like phones and computers and vehicles. I'm SURE that anybody I get involved with will fall in this category, because most people do. I'm the anomaly. I'm okay with that. I wouldn't ever say, "Oh, wow...you like to spend on vehicles and I don't. We're so incompatible. Can't date you." Because, hi, that's MOST PEOPLE. If people are spending responsibly, it really doesn't matter to me how expenditures are prioritized differently person to person. I'm never gonna find somebody like me, who isn't interested in buying MOST things, and it never occured to me that I was supposed to.

That being the case, if my school debt is responsibly managed, why is it a problem for somebody else? Why is it a red flag of incompatibility?

[spiritedaway]

You know what? I'm going to drop this because I am starting to feel like my words are being twisted to apply specifically to your situation and mountains are made out of molemhills, and my perspective is being attacked because I don't agree. It's not like you can apply one issue such a debt and say "whoa, that's the ONLY reason I'm not interested in you". I have said that people have to decide if they can reconcile the difference (like MrsNew has done) and make it work. It's up to the individual.

Did I say it's "definitely" a dealbreaker? No, I said it could be and IS for some people. Why is finance a big thing in marriage? Because some folks can't work out their differences. It's no dumber than a lot of stupid reasons that people have over dealbreakers such as
your height, or whatever, things you can't really control. (And those are just random examples. Just examples. It's no more less or more valid than people's issues with religion or other major dealbreakers). Or maybe it's less valid because finances is not that high of a priority to you. Logical, no?

I'm not saying money is the most important thing, in fact, I have never (in any my posts) said that money IS everything. You can do a lot of things with it, but just as it gives you financial freedom (if you have money), it can confine you (with debt).

I have never said that nothing else mattering, and that there ARE shades of gray. If you choose not to see that, hey, who am I to argue? You see what you see and I see what I see. I have also never said that there is anything wrong with how you're raised or the choices you make. (Heck, your financial background really isn't all that much different from mine). I'm saying that if your point is that love has to do with who the person is, that PERSON is made up based on how that person is raised, the experiences, choices, whatever.

If those are choices I'm not going to agree, I'm not going to agree with no matter how you spin it. I just don't appreciate that my posts are taken out of context and applied specifically to your situation because in reality, 30K-40K isn't really all that much debt, given the soaring cost of a college education these days. Mine costs $120K+ in sticker price (which is pretty typical nowadays for private schools), which is why the benchmark of 120K is used. People who don't at least blink or think about that debt and see if that's something they can reconcile with their partner as one of things they consider when they think about the long-term are lying about it.

That's all I want to say. I'm done with this thread.

[and1grad]

You know what? I'm going to drop this because I am starting to feel like my words are being twisted to apply specifically to your situation and mountains are made out of molemhills, and my perspective is being attacked because I don't agree. It's not like you can apply one issue such a debt and say "whoa, that's the ONLY reason I'm not interested in you". I have said that people have to decide if they can reconcile the difference (like MrsNew has done) and make it work. It's up to the individual.

Did I say it's "definitely" a dealbreaker? No, I said it could be and IS for some people. Why is finance a big thing in marriage? Because some folks can't work out their differences. It's no dumber than a lot of stupid reasons that people have over dealbreakers such as
your height, or whatever, things you can't really control. (And those are just random examples. Just examples. It's no more less or more valid than people's issues with religion or other major dealbreakers). Or maybe it's less valid because finances is not that high of a priority to you. Logical, no?

I'm not saying money is the most important thing, in fact, I have never (in any my posts) said that money IS everything. You can do a lot of things with it, but just as it gives you financial freedom (if you have money), it can confine you (with debt).

I have never said that nothing else mattering, and that there ARE shades of gray. If you choose not to see that, hey, who am I to argue? You see what you see and I see what I see. I have also never said that there is anything wrong with how you're raised or the choices you make. (Heck, your financial background really isn't all that much different from mine). I'm saying that if your point is that love has to do with who the person is, that PERSON is made up based on how that person is raised, the experiences, choices, whatever.

If those are choices I'm not going to agree, I'm not going to agree with no matter how you spin it. I just don't appreciate that my posts are taken out of context and applied specifically to your situation because in reality, 30K-40K isn't really all that much debt, given the soaring cost of a college education these days. Mine costs $120K+ in sticker price (which is pretty typical nowadays for private schools), which is why the benchmark of 120K is used. People who don't at least blink or think about that debt and see if that's something they can reconcile with their partner as one of things they consider when they think about the long-term are lying about it.

That's all I want to say. I'm done with this thread.
I agree with everything you've said. EVERYBODY has a dumb dealbreaker and nobody has even suggested that this is one to begin with. You're exactly right about people twisting your words also.

Also, when did 30K become not a lot of debt? That sounds like a whole fucking lot of debt to me considering other life expenses.

[wordsmith]

Don't feel badly, spiritedaway.

I AM talking specifically about my situation, because I've had some really hurtful character judgments made about me, my level of responsibility, my personal judgment, even into my worthiness as relationship material etc. based on exactly this topic. I wasn't saying that you yourself were doing the judging.

[Chameleon]

Also, when did 30K become not a lot of debt? That sounds like a whole fucking lot of debt to me considering other life expenses.
NOOOOOOOOOO! Don't say that! That's like posting a cut-off weight/height/salary/education level for someone you'll consider dating. People don't like that.

I totally agree with what spiritedaway posted, people have different shallow/stupid/random/insensitive criteria for choosing mates, you just have to wade through a lot of people to find a mutual match.

[and1grad]

NOOOOOOOOOO! Don't say that! That's like posting a cut-off weight/height/salary/education level for someone you'll consider dating. People don't like that.
I think 30K is UNIVERSALLY considered a lot of money. It has nothing to do with dating consideration.

[wordsmith]

Your alma mater currently costs just under $30K for four years' straight tuition, an additional 10k if room and board is purchased through the school as well. I'm sure it didn't when you attended, but would you attend now, at that cost, or would you consider it to be an insurmountable amount and not a worthwhile cost?

[and1grad]

Your alma mater currently costs just under $30K for four years' straight tuition, an additional 10k if room and board is purchased through the school as well. I'm sure it didn't when you attended, but would you attend now, at that cost, or would you consider it to be an insurmountable amount and not a worthwhile cost?
You're looking up my alma mater now? What does yours cost? How can I know whether I'd go there now or not? It depends on my options. Not that its any of your business.

[wordsmith]

Evidently just over 100K, for four years, and of course I wouldn't and didn't attend there paying anywhere remotely near such an amount (It, and the above rate, are from USN&WR).

My point was that private schools can work out to be far less costly than public in the final analysis, and that one's debt isn't necessarily insurmountable due to attending X school, simply becuase of the sticker price. Had I gone to your alma mater, at current cost, I'd owe much more than I ended up owing at a school with a far more inflated price.

And the reason I asked was because it seemed in your earlier post as if you were indicating that 30K is a ridiculous figure to pay for schooling. I didn't borrow that much, either, thankfully, but it doesn't seem that ridiculous to me, it seems pretty standard.

[and1grad]

What I said is that 30K is a lot of money. I'm not concerned with how it compares to other school loans. It, by itself, is a lot of money.

[wordsmith]

Of course it's a lot of money (Hi, I'm the person who won't pay over a grand for a car, remember?). And whether it's a personally worthwhile expenditure is going to be up to the person making the expenditure, obviously.

But is it so much (or is, say, HALF that so much) that somebody with that debtload and a manageable payment plan needs to feel like they should walk around with an "untouchable" sign stuck to his or her back, and assume they're stuck being alone with their debt?

[Josie]

You're looking up my alma mater now? What does yours cost? How can I know whether I'd go there now or not? It depends on my options. Not that its any of your business.

Ok, if it's not anyone's business why you make decisions, which include financial....then why is it your business how someone else makes their decisions?

30k to me is a car loan. Car loan. And you can't even deduct the interest on your taxes from a car loan. What other "life expenses" are around 30k? Rent surely isn't 30k. Utilities are not 30k.

[and1grad]

Ok, if it's not anyone's business why you make decisions, which include financial....then why is it your business how someone else makes their decisions?

30k to me is a car loan. Car loan. And you can't even deduct the interest on your taxes from a car loan. What other "life expenses" are around 30k? Rent surely isn't 30k. Utilities are not 30k.
Where did I say it was my business? I really dont give a shit what wordsmith's financial situation is. It doesnt concern me.

When did I ask what someone paid for school? Rent isnt a life expense? 30K for you is a car loan. Fantastic. So what?

[shimma]

Wowww...... I thought I was the official bitch around here, but this thread is a total trainwreck.

Mods - please send me a list of the topics about which it is appropriate to shit on people for, because I am totally freakin lost here. I didn't realize student loan debt was one of them, but obv I am wrong.

ETA: I would also like a list of types who are not welcome to post here. So far I have: less than upper middle class background, making over 50K, married/engaged, has child(ren), more conservative viewpoints about gender roles and/or politics, outside a very narrow and seemingly nebulous and everchanging margin of self-respect and/or entitlement (not too little, not too much!) beleives in God or some higher power, is pro-life, raised by relatives other than parents or stepparents, and now, has over a certain threshhold in student loan debt (but you need to clarify the thresshold)... what else am I missing? I'd really like to know.

Maybe it should be in the little thingy you read and agree to before you join QLC: Do not, under any circumstances, join these boards if any of the aforementioned apply to you.

I've been observing this for years now and I just can't figure out what makes this place tick.

What is the problem with Words' having student loan debt? Is it that her highly ranked alma mater isn't good enough, that her job (she's advanced to an exceptionally high position for someone our age) isn't good enough, that her parents aren't wealthy enough, or just that she's not from the "QLC mold" of an upper-middle class suburban family? Maybe you should've asked to see her and her parents' pay stubs for the last 20 years before befriending her if that's so important to you.

I'm just trying to understand why it's OK to shit all over certain people but not make a peep to others around here.

[asm198]

I wouldn't expect or accept any help from my SO in paying off my debt. I don't have all that much, but it's long been past the point of paying it off without more hits to my credit. I'm trying to figure out my best course of action, but that does not include taking any money from him. I figure that I got myself into the mess and it's not his responsibility to bail me out.

That said, I would help him pay off his CC debt. The reason I'd help him is because a chunk of his debt occured when we were living together and I feel obligated to help out as much as I possibly can when I finally get an ok paying job (meaning $10/hour or more).

The only things I won't pay for are the mortgage payment until my name is on the house. That won't happen until we are married and I clean up my credit. That's not his stipulation; that's mine. I also won't pay his truck payments because that's his asset, not mine.

I plan on keeping as much of our money as separate as possible. Not because I don't trust him or our relationship, but I don't want to have to ask to spend money or deal with both of us using money out of one account for random spending.