You shouldn't get a job.

[Umbra]

Or so the author of this website believes.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/07/10-reasons-you-should-never-get-a-job/

[wordsmith]

Eh, I didn't get very far. I got as far as:

"Smart people build systems that generate income 24/7, especially passive income. This can include starting a business, building a web site, becoming an investor, or generating royalty income from creative work."

And thought, Hmm, apart from arguably becoming an investor...how is this NOT work? :rolleyes:

[PenforPrez]

And thought, Hmm, apart from arguably becoming an investor...how is this NOT work? :rolleyes:

Even investing is hard work. :p

[KCboy]

I have a friend that tried mulple ways to get money without a job.

failed, and wasted many years in poverty.

now he plays poker full-time. says that's more work than a "regular" job.

[sondra_finchley]

LOL!! Building a business. Believe me, in the last 5.5 years I spent helping people start and/or build a business it seems to me that 85% of my clients assumed that just saying they wanted to start a business meant POOF! there it was cranking away at full speed with full inventory and robust customer base and they were sitting back watching the dough roll in. I hate this misconception- starting and running your own business will always be a considerable amount of work and worry, especially one that will generate enough income for you to live fairly comfortably.

[bmy78]

Eh, I didn't get very far. I got as far as:

And thought, Hmm, apart from arguably becoming an investor...how is this NOT work? :rolleyes:

He never said it wasn't "work." He just advises to not get a job.

[wordsmith]

My parents have run a business for 30 years. It's most assuredly a job (and work). :) I really have to keep from busting a gut when the get rich quick gurus a. assume that running a business is the way to accomplish getting rich quick, and b. assume that working for yourself is any less of a job, somehow, than working for "the man." Work is work.

[vxmike]

Generating passive income whether from a business, investing, etc almost alwats requires CAPITAL. Which almost always requires a job for a while to obtain this capital.

[AznHisoka]

You can say that owning your own business is a job. It depends on how you define job though. Is a job something you have to do to earn a living even though you're not passionate about it? If so, I wouldn't consider owning a biz a job. It's all semantics.

The blogger has some legitimate points but makes the mistake of dissing/offending peeps with jobs. However, that's what makes the blog post very unique, and it has so many comments too, so that's not really a mistake.

He throws in a ton of hyperboles.. having a job is not that bad. Starting your own biz is really not that hard if you're focused on the internet, such as an online store, selling on eBay, affiliate programs and online advertising.

Many people say Ooh starting a biz requires capital.. it's a job.. u need to work a lot! But those people make the deadly mistake of not even trying first. Try before you immediately dismiss having a biz as impossible and gruesome.

[wordsmith]

You can say that owning your own business is a job. It depends on how you define job though. Is a job something you have to do to earn a living even though you're not passionate about it? If so, I wouldn't consider owning a biz a job. It's all semantics.

Why would this be the definition of a job? I personally don't do things for a living that I'm not passionate about. To each his or her own.

The immature notion that "Oh, jobs are horrible, jobs are hateful, jobs enslave you to The Man" is pretty played out.

Whether you work for an employer and are accountable to a supervisor or are self-employed and accountable to your customers, it's ALL work, it's ALL getting a job done.

Many people say Ooh starting a biz requires capital.. it's a job.. u need to work a lot! But those people make the deadly mistake of not even trying first. Try before you immediately dismiss having a biz as impossible and gruesome.

As noted, I grew up in a family that began a business 30 years ago and has run it ever since. If I dismiss being a business owner (and I have), you'd better damned well believe that it comes from personal experience with exactly what the rewards are and aren't and an informed point of view, not a guess.

[nikorock28]

Even if you start and run your own business (self-employed), it is still a job. Just a different type of job. All of your clients are your bosses... if you don't please your clients, no dinero. Sure, you can pick and choose who you want to work with, but sometimes, you will have to work with people you don't like or respect. Whenever you make money doing something, it is a job. You don't get paid for nothing, regardless of what you do.

[nikorock28]

He never said it wasn't "work." He just advises to not get a job.

Anything that requires work is a job IMO.

[AznHisoka]

Just because you grew up in a family that ran a business doesn't mean you know what it feels like to actually run it. And even if you were so involved, you knew what it felt like, it's just 1 single biz. Your family biz could be the exception, not the rule.

[nikorock28]

Just because you grew up in a family that ran a business doesn't mean you know what it feels like to actually run it. And even if you were so involved, you knew what it felt like, it's just 1 single biz. Your family biz could be the exception, not the rule.

Most businesses require much more time and effort than the traditional job. It is the exception where someone has the money rolling in and doesn't do much work.

[wordsmith]

Just because you grew up in a family that ran a business doesn't mean you know what it feels like to actually run it. And even if you were so involved, you knew what it felt like, it's just 1 single biz. Your family biz could be the exception, not the rule.

Both of my parents have worked for traditional employers as well as running their own business, and it ASSUREDLY takes much more time, effort, and energy to run your own, versus clock in, clock out, go home and forget about it.

[wordsmith]

Most businesses require much more time and effort than the traditional job. It is the exception where someone has the money rolling in and doesn't do much work.

Exactly. And every blogger and "work for yourself" guru tries to sell people on the exception being the rule. Most people who are self-employed work their asses off and have to. Sitting around with lots of leisure time while your business runs itself? Wishful thinking, sorry.

[AznHisoka]

Who says I want to start a biz 'cause I want to slack around all day? You start a biz 'cause you're passionate about it. 'Cause you enjoy spending all day and all night DAYDREAMING about how to make ur biz better.

[nikorock28]

Who says I want to start a biz 'cause I want to slack around all day? You start a biz 'cause you're passionate about it. 'Cause you enjoy spending all day and all night DAYDREAMING about how to make ur biz better.

If you are so passionate about something that you enjoy spending all day and night dreaming about it, then, yes, I think you should start your own business. However, how many people are that passionate about something? Very few.

[teeny]

hmm, only read #1 so far- and my first thought was honestly- whoa, $40,000 from writing a website??

I think the article does sound kind of pretentious. BUT i personally don't take offense to it. I understand what he's saying, and I don't think he's criticizing working- just putting yourself in a bad spot because you think a traditional job is the only way to make money. For example, the idea that face time= salary. Which kind of sucks in the work world. Why work 40 hours (or more) when your job only requires 20 hours a week? I know there are some weeks where I need to work 60 hours (before fashion shows for example) just to get my job done. But there are slower weeks where I could probably show up once that week and get everything done, yet I still come in every day (and work more when i have to). I personally really value my time and HATE that about the system- it seems so wasteful of the greatest gift we're given- our life. So I'm constantly scheming ways to work for myself as well and generate income in a variety of ways- because while it IS work- i only show up when i need to.

[bmy78]

I think almost all of you are missing the point. The author of that website refers to a "job" as a concept--involving 40 hours a week, 9 to 5, collecting a paycheck, W2s, time off, and most importantly, selling your LABOR to someone else (i.e. your employer). These are general terms and there are plenty of jobs that do not fit all of the abovementioned parameters.

Owning a business instead of having a "job" puts you in the possibility of buying another person's labor and selling it for a profit. Obviously, not all businesses are like this--especially if you are a one-man shop and working for yourself. Then the distinction about who pays you (either employers or customers) doesn't matter but you are not going to have this capability of buying another person's labor if you work for somebody else. You have to own your own business to do this.

Another point: there are only so many hours you can devote to your business. Even if you work 80 hours/week you are limiting your income to those 80 hours. If you develop passive income streams while working then your income exceeds the limitations of your labor.

There's nothing in that article that says "all will flow freely once you set up a website and some ads"--you have to work really hard to achieve that sort of level where passive income streams will eventually develop. I've read Steve Pavlina's website and he's quite prolific with his articles, and if you believe his claims, he used to take 30 credits/semester while in college and sleeps like 2-3 hours a night. He's quite prolific, quite active, and works quite a lot.

[nikorock28]

There's nothing in that article that says "all will flow freely once you set up a website and some ads"--you have to work really hard to achieve that sort of level where passive income streams will eventually develop. I've read Steve Pavlina's website and he's quite prolific with his articles, and if you believe his claims, he used to take 30 credits/semester while in college and sleeps like 2-3 hours a night. He's quite prolific, quite active, and works quite a lot.

That doesn't sound like a desirable livelihood to myself. If he can sleep 2-3 hrs a night and enjoy it, that is great. I couldn't last two days doing that.

[Bocheezu]

I'm not a big fan of the "make your audience feel like stupid idiots" form of trying to get a point across. I think it goes without saying that it's way over-the-top and really, I could bitch about every one of his bulletpoints, but that would mean I gave his article way too much thought than it is worth.

[bmy78]

I'm not a big fan of the "make your audience feel like stupid idiots" form of trying to get a point across. I think it goes without saying that it's way over-the-top and really, I could bitch about every one of his bulletpoints, but that would mean I gave his article way too much thought than it is worth.

Actually, I'd like to read some of that bitching because, despite his contemptuous tone, he's on the money in most, if not all, of the points he makes.

[redav]

There's nothing in that article that says "all will flow freely once you set up a website and some ads"--you have to work really hard to achieve that sort of level where passive income streams will eventually develop. I've read Steve Pavlina's website and he's quite prolific with his articles, and if you believe his claims, he used to take 30 credits/semester while in college and sleeps like 2-3 hours a night. He's quite prolific, quite active, and works quite a lot.
Incorrect: "The system delivers the ongoing value to people and generates income from it, and once it’s in motion, it runs continuously whether you tend to it or not." That basically says exactly, $$$ will flow freely once you get it set up. And, that point is pretty stupid, because even with investing, it still takes maintenance.

Here's a bulleted list:
1. How much you make is far more important than WHEN you make it. Most people will make more money having a traditional job than all those other things. Honestly, how many authors can write one book and milk the royalties for year after year? How many people make thousands each month with a website? Even if you do make it work, you have to keep doing more to keep people's interest. So, if it takes you 40 hr/wk to set up/maintain a continuous revenue stream, and it doesn't pay as much as a reg job, THAT would be income for dummies.
2. Experience is not a one-time thing. He seems to think that jobs are things that trained monkeys do (seriously, I DO think he thinks this). If so, he's never seen modern business. It adapts constantly to keep up with the changing world. Having a job is the best way to build/maintain skills that are of value to others. But for some reason the skills he proposes you develop don't need to be updated. Why is gaining experience writing a book or running an internet business superior to experience being a doctor, mechanic, or some other profession? Fact is, it isn't.
3. Domestication. Riiiiight. Working hard to get/keep your internet business up and running will somehow result in something different.
4. Not being paid how much worth you generate. This point is correct; you WILL take home more if you work for yourself. However, you will still be taxes on that income. (Hmm, why didn't he mention that?) However, most new businesses fail. Most self-made millionaires loose their shirt at least once. The trade-off is security--your income and future are more predictable & consistent in a reg job. Many people prefer that to the risk of sink-or-swim.
5. The majority of new businesses fail. If you are a good worker, what are the odds you'll get fired? So again, which option has more risk?
6. When you run into an idiot in the entrepreneurial world, you have to turn around and say, "Your the customer, and the customer is always right." You will always be surrounded by idiots.
7. Unless you are printing your own money, you will always be begging for what you get. What do you think advertising is? Do you really think you can ignore customers and be successful?

I'm getting tired of this. You get the point.

[bmy78]

Incorrect: "The system delivers the ongoing value to people and generates income from it, and once it’s in motion, it runs continuously whether you tend to it or not." That basically says exactly, $$$ will flow freely once you get it set up. And, that point is pretty stupid, because even with investing, it still takes maintenance.

This is precisely correct. I did nothing to my 401k this past year. It earned 15%.


1. How much you make is far more important than WHEN you make it. Most people will make more money having a traditional job than all those other things. Honestly, how many authors can write one book and milk the royalties for year after year? How many people make thousands each month with a website? Even if you do make it work, you have to keep doing more to keep people's interest. So, if it takes you 40 hr/wk to set up/maintain a continuous revenue stream, and it doesn't pay as much as a reg job, THAT would be income for dummies.

This isn't inconsistent with what he's saying. An author can reap the rewards of royalties for years with a strong backlist. That's where authors really make their money. The cost? They have to write a book a year. In time, their reputation will grow and their frontlist titles will sell, generating sales to their backlist. Stephen King still earns a ton of money from books he's written decades ago. Of course, he's Stephen King and there's only 1 of him, but there are plenty of authors who make money on their backlist. Point is, if you want to make money as a writer, keep pushing your frontlist and that will promote your backlist.

2. Experience is not a one-time thing. He seems to think that jobs are things that trained monkeys do (seriously, I DO think he thinks this). If so, he's never seen modern business. It adapts constantly to keep up with the changing world. Having a job is the best way to build/maintain skills that are of value to others. But for some reason the skills he proposes you develop don't need to be updated. Why is gaining experience writing a book or running an internet business superior to experience being a doctor, mechanic, or some other profession? Fact is, it isn't.
I don't see your point here. His whole point isn't giving value to your boss, it's giving value to yourself. If you're a doctor, open you're own practice, write medical books; if your a mechanic, open you're own shop, hire other mechanics, etc. Utilize the skills you have to maximize your earnings, not your boss's.

3. Domestication. Riiiiight. Working hard to get/keep your internet business up and running will somehow result in something different.
?


4. Not being paid how much worth you generate. This point is correct; you WILL take home more if you work for yourself. However, you will still be taxes on that income. (Hmm, why didn't he mention that?) However, most new businesses fail. Most self-made millionaires loose their shirt at least once. The trade-off is security--your income and future are more predictable & consistent in a reg job. Many people prefer that to the risk of sink-or-swim.

That's his whole point. Leave your comfort zone. Take risks. Unfortunately too many people (myself included) are just too afraid to do this.


5. The majority of new businesses fail. If you are a good worker, what are the odds you'll get fired? So again, which option has more risk?

Layoffs happen all the time, regardless as to whether you are a good worker.


6. When you run into an idiot in the entrepreneurial world, you have to turn around and say, "Your the customer, and the customer is always right." You will always be surrounded by idiots.

No you don't. You can say, Sorry, I don't need to work with you. Obviously if you have lots of idiot clients you are not going to be able to do this but if most of your clients are reasonable people (and frankly most people are reasonable) but you have that one idiot then you have a choice to refuse him/her. If your boss is insane you can't say "go to hell" unless you want to be fired. With a business, you can still say you own your business. There are freelancers I know who turn down business because they are just too busy with their workload; you can't tell your boss to please give me less work without him/her raising an eyebrow.


7. Unless you are printing your own money, you will always be begging for what you get. What do you think advertising is? Do you really think you can ignore customers and be successful?
Yes, you can. Not the vast majority of customers but you have the freedom to say no to someone of whom you don't like. As mentioned above, I've known freelancers who had to turn down work because they've been swamped.

I'm getting tired of this. You get the point.[/QUOTE]

[redav]

Okay, let's sum everything up:

Working for yourself gives you the opportunity to make the profit your company makes. This is good.
Working for yourself has greater risk. Risk, by definition, is a bad thing.

Yes, if everything goes just right, your arguments would hold up. But that's not life, and things don't always go just right. That is the fatal flaw. (e.g. lay-offs: if a company has to lay-off workers, what do you think will happen to your private business?)

The principle is as old as dirt. He doesn't add anything to the existing debate except some silly arguments (experience, domestication, etc). He completely ignores the unfortunate facts of risk. It is a poorly written article that doesn't emphasize the right points.

This guy is no different than snake-oil salesmen and get-rich schemers.

[Xander]

Even investing is hard work. :p
And waaay too stressful for me, even though I think I handle stress better than most.

I ran my own business for a while, until I realized if I wanted a life, a "normal" job was the way to go. When you run your own business, you work 24/7--you even dream work. So from my experience (and from seeing my parents, who have run their own business for 20 or so years) owning your own business overwhelmingly means you'll have zero time. If you have a lot of time, it's either illegal or you're not working hard enough. :p I respected business owners a great deal before, but now more than ever.

And to comment on the article: There aint no such thing as a free lunch.

[wordsmith]

Yes, if everything goes just right, your arguments would hold up. But that's not life, and things don't always go just right. That is the fatal flaw. (e.g. lay-offs: if a company has to lay-off workers, what do you think will happen to your private business?)

Excellent point...the larger economic picture hits small business EXTREMELY hard. My dad is a building contractor who's run his own business for decades. If the largest employer in my area has massive layoffs, do you suppose he starts getting fewer and fewer calls when a large segment of the local population can't afford do home improvements? Better believe it.

I ran my own business for a while, until I realized if I wanted a life, a "normal" job was the way to go. When you run your own business, you work 24/7--you even dream work. So from my experience (and from seeing my parents, who have run their own business for 20 or so years) owning your own business overwhelmingly means you'll have zero time. If you have a lot of time, it's either illegal or you're not working hard enough. I respected business owners a great deal before, but now more than ever.

And to comment on the article: There aint no such thing as a free lunch.

Yep. Running a business is a 24-hour a day, seven day a week, eat, sleep, and breathe your business undertaking. No, thanks. I grew up with that, I know for a fact it's not my thing.

[Xander]

Excellent point...the larger economic picture hits small business EXTREMELY hard. My dad is a building contractor who's run his own business for decades. If the largest employer in my area has massive layoffs, do you suppose he starts getting fewer and fewer calls when a large segment of the local population can't afford do home improvements? Better believe it.
Yep, definitely true. Working in exactly the same way, if the largest employer has raises/bonuses, a large segment of the population can afford more stuff, which helps the small business. :D (sorry, had to toss that in there from the other thread ;))

[wordsmith]

Yep, definitely true. Working in exactly the same way, if the largest employer has raises/bonuses, a large segment of the population can afford more stuff, which helps the small business. :D (sorry, had to toss that in there from the other thread ;))

It's pretty telling, the economic environment I live in, when the side I mention is far more the norm than the side you mention, isn't it?

Also shaping my perspective...when people aren't doing well, they tend to shave off utilitarian things like home improvements. But when the opposite is true, on the upswing, it doesn't necessarily follow that home improvements top their list of where to spend their excess $$$.

[Xander]

It's pretty telling, the economic environment I live in, when the side I mention is far more the norm than the side you mention, isn't it?
Oh, I'm not making any claims as to the frequency of positive or neutral cash flow. I'm just saying both positive and neutral cash flow, well, flows... It's a stupid point that's obvious, but not everyone understands it. I only mentioned it as a joke. (apparently I'm not funny)