kids

[KCboy]

kids...

so many questions, so little chance to screw up.

how does someone know if they are ready?

on one hand, having a child gives up so much freedom. your life for just you is over. you know have the ultimate responsibility of another life depending on you every second of every day.

but I know so many parents that marvel at their children. they live through them, almost seems to give them another chance at youth.


another quandry - doesn't it seem more advantageous to have kids when you are young, so you are not a 45 year-old changing diapers (and a 65 year-old moving your child into a dorm room at college).

but you also want to have time to enjoy your youth before you give it all up.

[wordsmith]

A great many parents have told me you're never ready for kids.

I personally feel emotionally ready, and have for years. I'm not remotely financially ready, and I'm not ready in the sense that I'm not in a relationship with anybody I could foresee having kids with and for the most part haven't been.

[KCboy]

a sample post from another BB, that displays the dichotomy:

"I'm a very selfish person, most particularly with my time. I absolutely require to be by myself for at least a few hours per day. Getting over that was very difficult for me.

As a father, you will lose:

1) Time to yourself. But no where close to what the mother loses.
2) Money. They aren't (hopefully) extremely expensive, but it does add up.
3) Your wife will probably view your differently. You're the father of the child first. Your needs are secondary at best.

There are more, but that's a quick list.

I love being a father. I wouldn't change it for the world. My wife and my children are the best things that have ever happened to me. They've made me a better person. I was traveling this week and my wife called me after I'd already said goodnight to my kids. My wife said, "Your daughter wants to tell you something." My three year old girl then proceeded to sing the alphabet song to me. I did my best to keep it together and told my daughter how proud I was of her. She simply said, "I love you Daddy" and handed the phone to my wife.

Who, after hearing my sniffling, promptly said, "You are such a p*ssy."

Yep, I am."

[wordsmith]

See, and I find children to be intensely expensive.

That's really my only concern. I'm not a person who's selfish with my time at all, I'm not a person who goes nuts without alone time, and family time is the most important thing to me, way more important than work time or social time with friends. I'm extremely patient. I'm of a pretty good temperament for parenthood. But I can't really afford it right now and don't know when I might be able to.

[KCboy]

but the fact that there's no choice is what gets me.

I could go home right after work, I could stay and work late, I could go to the gym, I could go drinking, I could do anything I want. all that ends.

[redav]

A great many parents have told me you're never ready for kids.
True. It's the experience of having kids that makes you ready for it. So, I would say waiting won't help you much.

I personally feel emotionally ready, and have for years. I'm not remotely financially ready, and I'm not ready in the sense that I'm not in a relationship with anybody I could foresee having kids with and for the most part haven't been.
I think the emotional readiness is far more important than the financial side. While kids are expensive, not having money for them is far less critical than not having the love & time for them. It seems more people focus on the money rather than the maturity, though.

Frequently I feel that when people talk about loosing their freedom or no longer enjoying their youth, it's a bit of a cop-out. It's a Peter Pan, a prolonged adolescence. Life & fun don't end with kids, just like they don't end with marriage. It changes, but doesn't end. And I've always heard from those who do have kids, they say that change is for the better. Personally, I don't want to be so old that I no longer have the energy to keep up & play with them.

[KCboy]

Frequently I feel that when people talk about loosing their freedom or no longer enjoying their youth, it's a bit of a cop-out. It's a Peter Pan, a prolonged adolescence. Life & fun don't end with kids, just like they don't end with marriage. It changes, but doesn't end. And I'm sure if you ask those who do have kids, they'll say that change is for the better. Personally, I don't want to be so old that I no longer have the energy to keep up & play with them.

and when the (possibility of) loss of youth and ultimate freedom scares the living sh!t out of you?

once you take that dive, it's over, no going back. seems like that crossroad is worth waiting for.

[wordsmith]

I think the emotional readiness is far more important than the financial side. While kids are expensive, not having money for them is far less critical than not having the love & time for them. It seems more people focus on the money rather than the maturity, though.


My parents had two more kids than they could afford (the result of one actually being twins as it turned out, and an unplanned pregnancy four years later). I grew up in a household that was rich in love and poor in money, and it's DEFINITELY crucial that you're emotionally ready to be a parent, because being able to raise your kids well and with kindness and values and knowing that they're loved, probably even moreso when money is tight. And I know how hard it is when there's not enough money, and I don't want that from the parenting end, having seen firsthand how hard it was for my parents to not be able to afford the kind of life they wanted for their kids. That's why, though I have the maturity and emotional capacity end of things down, I feel like the finances are the final component.

Frequently I feel that when people talk about loosing their freedom or no longer enjoying their youth, it's a bit of a cop-out. It's a Peter Pan, a prolonged adolescence. Life & fun don't end with kids, just like they don't end with marriage. It changes, but doesn't end. And I'm sure if you ask those who do have kids, they'll say that change is for the better. Personally, I don't want to be so old that I no longer have the energy to keep up & play with them.

I agree, I find the "Kids make you lose your freedom, your life is over" argument to be mostly applicable to people who aren't very mature and/or are just people who aren't wired for the sacrifices of parenthood and my never be (and that's fine, those people SHOULDN'T have kids, but too often, they do). But I'm also very family oriented, so I don't exactly jealously guard my time.

My dad was 30 when I was born and nearly 40 when my youngest sibling was born. He was never too old to play with us, and he worked (and still works, at 60, a very physical manual labor job). Energy was never a problem. So I don't worry about that.

[wordsmith]

but the fact that there's no choice is what gets me.

I could go home right after work, I could stay and work late, I could go to the gym, I could go drinking, I could do anything I want. all that ends.

This will be the case ANYtime somebody's counting on you and you have to take another person into consideration, not just if you're a parent. You have to be accountable to your spouse, significant other, family, friends, etc. The only way to continue to only be accountable to yourself is to choose to remain alone. Which some people do. But the tradeoff for having people in your life is that you take them into consideration rather than operate as a free agent.

[redav]

and when the (possibility of) loss of youth and ultimate freedom scares the living sh!t out of you?

once you take that dive, it's over, no going back. seems like that crossroad is worth waiting for.
Just like moving out from the parents place and paying your own bills. Just like getting married. Just like signing 30 years of payments away for a house.

Making big, life altering decisions is a part of life, and part of what makes us grown-up. It's natural and expected to be concerned/scared.

Here's a more telling side to a person's maturity & emotional preparation: are youth and ultimate freedom of more value than having a family? Which is worth more? Avoiding/postponing those decisions shows that one cares more about the youth & freedom, but in the end, I think it's the other way around.

[wordsmith]

That and the fact that youth fades anyway, whether you marry or have kids or not.

And at some point, you learn that "freedom" isn't strictly defined by being able to choose not to come home after work but instead go to the gym or grab a beer (neither of which necessarily become impossible when you have a family, anyhow).

Growing up and getting a job means that you gave up the youthful freedom to sleep till noon and play video games in your boxers eating Cap'n Crunch from the box half the day, but people seem to adjust to that, too.

[KCboy]

This will be the case ANYtime somebody's counting on you and you have to take another person into consideration, not just if you're a parent. You have to be accountable to your spouse, significant other, family, friends, etc.

those people are adults and can deal with it. a child can't

[KCboy]

Just like moving out from the parents place and paying your own bills. Just like getting married. Just like signing 30 years of payments away for a house.

if you fail or realize you've made a mistake, you can move back home, get divorced, sell the house. a child can't be reversed.


Here's a more telling side to a person's maturity & emotional preparation: are youth and ultimate freedom of more value than having a family? Which is worth more? Avoiding/postponing those decisions shows that one cares more about the youth & freedom, but in the end, I think it's the other way around.

what does that mean?

[KCboy]

Growing up and getting a job means that you gave up the youthful freedom to sleep till noon and play video games in your boxers eating Cap'n Crunch from the box half the day, but people seem to adjust to that, too.

I don't agree with your 'youth' take. tough to explain, but there is a certain amount of aging that happens when a child enters the picture. has little to do with age, just responsibility.


but this makes quote sense. we have all adjusted to things we never thought we could. but in most cases we were forced to. children, in a discussion like this, is an option.

[redav]

if you fail or realize you've made a mistake, you can move back home, get divorced, sell the house. a child can't be reversed.
If you can decide a marriage is a "mistake" or "failure" and the solution is to say "my bad" and get divorced, then there is always the adoption option--let someone who IS emotionally prepared "fix" the problem (As you can tell, using words like mistake and failure in the same context as having a child doesn't sit well with me. No child ever deserves that.)

what does that mean?
The purpose and value of life is the growth that the journey brings. It is in our development, maturation, and our relationships. When we are at the end, these are the things that will matter. No one on their deathbed says: "I wish I had gone to the bar more often. I wish I had hung out with my pals more. I wish I had more years to be young. Damn those kids--if not for them, I could have had more time to do those things I really wanted to do."

You call it "aging" when you have a child; other people might call it maturation or growing up. That's a part of what life is all about. That newfound responsibility--and all its related benefits--are of great worth, and in the end, much greater worth than the "freedom" associated with youth. When one figures that out and decides to step out of youth, they have made an important step forward on life's journey.

Conversely, standing still, prolonging youth, not taking the next step in life because you are scared of the changes it will bring, means you have stopped your journey and progression through life.

[KCboy]

No one on their deathbed says: "I wish I had gone to the bar more often. I wish I had hung out with my pals more. I wish I had more years to be young. Damn those kids--if not for them, I could have had more time to do those things I really wanted to do."

people do regret missing out on their youth. not at the expense of their children, but it happens.

You call it "aging" when you have a child; other people might call it maturation or growing up. That's a part of what life is all about. That newfound responsibility--and all its related benefits--are of great worth, and in the end, much greater worth than the "freedom" associated with youth. When one figures that out and decides to step out of youth, they have made an important step forward on life's journey.

true.

NoConversely, standing still, prolonging youth, not taking the next step in life because you are scared of the changes it will bring, means you have stopped your journey and progression through life.

there's nothing wrong with trying to hold onto a special time in our lives, and having trouble adjusting to the next. it only comes around once. that's what this whole BB is about.

[redav]

there's nothing wrong with trying to hold onto a special time in our lives, and having trouble adjusting to the next. it only comes around once. that's what this whole BB is about.
That's why it's a growth opportunity. Overcoming that which is difficult makes us stronger.

I would phrase the idea more along the lines of: It is good to hold onto those things about a special time of your life that are good for you, such as childhood's wide-eye view where everything is new & exciting. Or the ability to have fun and play no matter what your situation. These traits don't have to go away as we mature, they just get supplemented with responsibility, caution, etc.

There are somethings about youth that are in opposition to maturity--like responsibility (e.g. kids are not accountable for the consequences of unalterable life decisions; adults are) While there are things about youth worth holding on to, when I hear the phrase "hold on to youth" (meaning youth itself, not merely certain characteristics associated with youth), I interpret it as holding on to all characteristics of that stage, even those in opposition with taking the next step. That is why I see it as staying put in life's journey. While we can take souvenirs, we can't see the next place without first leaving the one we are at.

[wordsmith]

people do regret missing out on their youth. not at the expense of their children, but it happens.


Did you miss out on your youth? It makes sense, if you never had much of a youth.


there's nothing wrong with trying to hold onto a special time in our lives, and having trouble adjusting to the next. it only comes around once. that's what this whole BB is about.

There is if it paralyzes you and prevents you from moving on.

[wordsmith]

You call it "aging" when you have a child; other people might call it maturation or growing up. That's a part of what life is all about.

Bingo.

[nikorock28]

If someone desires to have children, then you will be willing to make all the necessary sacrifices such as giving up your youth, the lack of independence, the responsibilities, the stress, the worry, and the highs and lows. If all these things scare you, then I just think you don't want kids that bad. If you want something, you do it... you don't really even consider the sacrifices you have to make. That being said, I don't think it is necessary to have children to progress to the next stage of maturity or advance in your "personal journey" of life. Also, if you choose to not have kids it doesn't make you selfish.

[Chameleon]

The purpose and value of life is the growth that the journey brings. It is in our development, maturation, and our relationships. When we are at the end, these are the things that will matter. No one on their deathbed says: "I wish I had gone to the bar more often. I wish I had hung out with my pals more. I wish I had more years to be young. Damn those kids--if not for them, I could have had more time to do those things I really wanted to do."

Considering the number of people that bail once they find out their girlfriend is pregnant, that don't pay child support and don't play a significant role in their children's lives, I don't think children are a "growth opportunity" everyone welcomes. Or is necessarily a fulfilling experience. Raising a child does get in the way of travelling frequently, getting on a plane without people groaning, going back to school (still can be done but harder), taking the promotion that will have you working 80 hours a week (assuming your spouse, if you had one, is cool with that), spending/saving your money as you see fit, having a quiet weekend, sleeping through the night.

The implication that only the immature would miss going out, spending time with friends, and sleeping seems unnecessarily harsh. Hopefully, if I do choose to procreate, having an adult conversation, in a location that perhaps serves alcohol, that doesn't include diapers, afterschool programs and college funds will still be a possibility.

[wordsmith]

The implication that only the immature would miss going out, spending time with friends, and sleeping seems unnecessarily harsh. Hopefully, if I do choose to procreate, having an adult conversation, in a location that perhaps serves alcohol, that doesn't include diapers, afterschool programs and college funds will still be a possibility.

I don't think that the implication is that it's immature to miss going out, spending time with friends, and sleeping. If you couldn't do any of those things, ever, it would suck. But that's not really a foregone conclusion simply because you become a parent. Does it change the priorities of your life? Sure. But that's a big extreme.

I do think it's a very immature viewpoint to look at being a parents as "Ahhh, doom! The end of my life!!!! I'll never have time for my friends, never get to go out again, and I'll certainly never sleep again."

Nobody's saying (at least, I'm not) that if you don't want kids, you're immature, or that parenting is the only hallmark of maturity. But if you look at kids as something that prevents anything enjoyable in life, you're either a person not wired for kids, or you have a very immature viewpoint. The whole "kids destroy any shot at freedom" is a very immature take, IMO.

[redav]

Considering the number of people that bail once they find out their girlfriend is pregnant, that don't pay child support and don't play a significant role in their children's lives, I don't think children are a "growth opportunity" everyone welcomes. Or is necessarily a fulfilling experience. Raising a child does get in the way of travelling frequently, getting on a plane without people groaning, going back to school (still can be done but harder), taking the promotion that will have you working 80 hours a week (assuming your spouse, if you had one, is cool with that), spending/saving your money as you see fit, having a quiet weekend, sleeping through the night.
Indeed, many people don't welcome growth opportunities. In fact, I think that could be the default mindset. (Exactly WHY would you want to do something hard when you could do something easy?) However, the point is what happens when you decide to bypass the easy road and take the hard road full of responsibilities, work, & sacrifices? When you make that hard decision, when a guy decides to stick around, when he realizes that there are more important things, THEN he will change inside--he will stop being a boy and become a man. Unfortunately, just having a kid doesn't always do that. There is a realization or a conscious decision that needs to occur.

The implication that only the immature would miss going out, spending time with friends, and sleeping seems unnecessarily harsh. Hopefully, if I do choose to procreate, having an adult conversation, in a location that perhaps serves alcohol, that doesn't include diapers, afterschool programs and college funds will still be a possibility.
That is not what is meant--if someone starts putting money into their 401(k), do they miss it (or miss what they used to do with it)? Frequently, yes. Are they immature because the miss it? No. Are they more mature because, despite the fact that they miss it, they still put it away because that is more important? Yes. Does saving for retirement (being "mature") mean that you can never spend money on things that are impractical and fun? No, so long as they do not damage that which is more important. Growing up isn't the elimination of youthfulness, is the the replacing of those things about it which are inferior (like ditching your pregnant gf) with things that are better (responsibility).

If someone desires to have children, then you will be willing to make all the necessary sacrifices such as giving up your youth, the lack of independence, the responsibilities, the stress, the worry, and the highs and lows. If all these things scare you, then I just think you don't want kids that bad. If you want something, you do it... you don't really even consider the sacrifices you have to make. That being said, I don't think it is necessary to have children to progress to the next stage of maturity or advance in your "personal journey" of life. Also, if you choose to not have kids it doesn't make you selfish.
Here is a principle of logic. If:
(A) implies (B)
you CANNOT conclude/prove:
(not A) implies (not B)

Therefore, if being willing to have & take care of children (A) implies you are mature (B), then it is FALSE to conclude that not wanting children (not A) implies you are immature (not B)

I agree that you do not have to have children to become more mature, more responsible, more "grown up." Likewise, having children does not automatically make you mature. However, I do believe that the experience of being a parent, being completely responsible for someone who is wholly dependent on you, being selfless, and raising them, is a good and vital part of the human experience, and if we were to not participate in it, we would miss out on one of the most meaningful and beneficial experiences available to us.

[wordsmith]

I agree that you do not have to have children to become more mature, more responsible, more "grown up." Likewise, having children does not automatically make you mature. However, I do believe that the experience of being a parent, being completely responsible for someone who is wholly dependent on you, being selfless, and raising them, is a good and vital part of the human experience, and if we were to not participate in it, we would miss out on one of the most meaningful and beneficial experiences available to us.

Can't totally agree with you, there. There are definitely people who really shouldn't be parents. There are people for whom it's just not beneficial or meaningful, and that's not good for anyone involved.

[redav]

Can't totally agree with you, there. There are definitely people who really shouldn't be parents. There are people for whom it's just not beneficial or meaningful, and that's not good for anyone involved.
There are exceptions. If someone is going to be abusive, a molester, etc., then it IS better they not have children. There are deadbeats who are completely indifferent towards their kids. And of course, there are those who are physically incapable; it would be terrible to imply they are deficient.

But consider, WHY would having children not be meaningful/beneficial to someone? There are undoubtedly several reasons. But, what I can think of are indications of other issues (those who would be abusive/exploitative, those who would indifferent to their responsibility, those who feel having children is morally 'wrong,' etc).

There is an assumption in the statement of the experience being good and vital that the parent is able and willing to learn those lessons that make it beneficial. For those whom this applies, it is one of the most important experiences they will have. For those whom it does not, they will miss out on a great experience. (Such is unfortunately the case for many things in life.) I do not think this invalidates the rule that the experience is acutely beneficial.

[wordsmith]

There are exceptions. If someone is going to be abusive, a molester, etc., then it IS better they not have children. There are deadbeats who are completely indifferent towards their kids. And of course, there are those who are physically incapable; it would be terrible to imply they are deficient.


I'm not actually even talking about those extreme cases, I'm thinking more of people who are irresponsible, people who are unwilling or inequipped to take care of them (either emotionally or financially), and people who just don't like kids very much, but end up with them anyway.

These people becoming parents isn't going to be beneficial to anybody...themselves, their children, or society.