is this person obligated to pay back personal loan?

[Fashionista]

Apparently two friends of mine are now locking horns over a personal debt that was not paid in a timely fashion

My friend *Sue* borrowed money from a mutal friend of ours because she was so far behind in her bills and was on the verge of being evicted after being unable to secure steady employment. She exhausted all means before asking our friend for the money and only asked for a small amount to give her landlord so that he didn't toss her out in the street.

The money was borrowed from *Tom* and she told him that she was hoping to give the money back within 2 months. She was hoping to land this job she interviewed for and did not get the job but managed to secure something a month after she said she would repay the money.

She owed so much in back rent and utilities that all the money plus OT she did pretty much went to that. She told Tom why there was a delay in getting him his money and he said fine and that he "understood".

So one day Tom called yelling at her because he wanted his money and he felt that it was immature of her to borrow money and not pay it back when she said she would. SHe reminded him that she has been in contact with him the whole time about the situation and is doing her best to repay the money. She offered to do installment but he said no citing that he didn't "let her borrow the the money in installments"

So fast forward 10 months later Sue got a bonus from her job and gave 1/3 of what she owed in cash to Tom (the 1/3 she had was all the cash she had on her). Tom tried to refuse the money saying that she took to long to pay it. At one point during the arguement he put the money back in her hands. She gave back the money and told him to come back tomorrow for the rest so they could be done with the situation. Tom never showed. Sue called 3 times and he kept throwing it up in her face that she took to long to pay. Sue told him again why it took so long and even offered proof of her financial problems but Tom would hear nothing of it.

They remained on "friendly terms" but everytime Tom is in a bad mood or gets mad at her he starts yelling at her about how immature she is for borrowing and not repaying

Sue now feels she has no obligation to give back the money because she tried numerous times and he either would not accept it nor meet her so she can give it to him. Everytime he gets mad he tosses it up in her face that she owes him money but he clearly said he didn't want it because "she took to long to pay it back." ( Even I heard him say that to her)

Although I am friends with both people I am leaning toward Sue's side because Tom clearly said to me that she shouldn't even bother paying because she did pay when she originally said simply because she could not. I can understand why Tom is mad but why did he tell her "not to bother" paying if he really wanted to the money?

Should Sue pay just to get Tom to STFU or should she not bother? Any suggestions outside of never loan to or borrow from friends?

[nikorock28]

Never loan to or borrow money from friends. =) I think Tom is justified in being angry. The agreement was that she would pay him back the money within 2 months, which she did not. If she was working, how come she could only manage to give him 1/3 of the money 10 MONTHS LATER. I mean, how do you keep in contact for 10 months? Once a week for 40 weeks straight? What did Sue tell Tom that whole time? "I'm sorry I can't pay you... blah blah" I am sure Tom would get sick of hearing that for 10 MONTHS, so he just said screw it and has lost any sense of respect for Sue. She was 8 months overdue and still couldn't come up with the money. Tom feels insulted so I can't blame him for not showing up. Besides, if she said she was going to give him all the money the next day, why didn't she just do that in the first place? However, if I were Tom, I would accept whatever she would give me and accept the money in installments.

[winneythepooh7]

Did they have anything in writing? If he doesn't want the money, I think it's best to just cut the losses. However, from what I know about people in general, there may often be more to the story then what you are seeing from "Sue's" side of it. But I do have to echo the above poster about not borrowing money from friends. Many times it just turns out to be a bad situation all around when borrowing from friends. Even borrowing from ANYONE could turn out to be bad..........

[Xander]

What? How is this even a debate? If Sue borrowed money from Tom, pay him back. Simple.

Sue does need to grow up if she's even thinking about not paying Tom back just because he's being a diva about it. What Sue needs to do is document everything to be able to prove payment in court, if necessary (ie a certified check with the amount made out to his name, signature and delivery confirmation for the letter, etc.)... then whatever Tom wants to do with it is his business. It's not Sue's money. If he wants to burn it, let him.

The friendship is a sunk cost. It's now a matter of moral obligation, especially if she's legally in the clear. Everyone needs to grow the hell up. :mad:

[nikorock28]

What? How is this even a debate? If Sue borrowed money from Tom, pay him back. Simple.

Sue does need to grow up if she's even thinking about not paying Tom back just because he's being a diva about it. What Sue needs to do is document everything to be able to prove payment in court, if necessary (ie a certified check with the amount made out to his name, signature and delivery confirmation for the letter, etc.)... then whatever Tom wants to do with it is his business. It's not Sue's money. If he wants to burn it, let him.

The friendship is a sunk cost. It's now a matter of moral obligation, especially if she's legally in the clear. Everyone needs to grow the hell up. :mad:

I agree. Why can't Sue just mail the check? Why does there have to be a meeting?

[Fashionista]

nik-Sue didn't pay tom back within 2 months because she was not working until 3 months after she borrowed the money and from what she said when she finally got her 40hr/wk gig she realized to how far in the hole she was from going without steady work, so she was trying to catch up and pay everyone that had to be paid. The 10month thing was when she was finally able to secure her bonus from work, which would be extra money. I am not sure why she didn't give him all the money in 1 day or why she didn't mail a check.

But even if Tom was insulted why wouldn't he take the money she had and not make a big deal about it?

Just from what I know about Sue she isn't someone to not good with a promise so I do believe her story about why she didn't pay when she said she would.

But again if Tom really wanted the money wouldn't he just take it? She offered it and he would never make himself available to get it and then gets mad and has the "f*** it attitude" and then goes back to asking for it...to me that makes zero sense. Either you want the money or you don't?

But I see everyone's point. I guess her feeling is he said no and insulted her so he lucks out and Tom feels she is a loser for not paying.

[Fashionista]

I agree. Why can't Sue just mail the check? Why does there have to be a meeting?
There was never a "meeting" per se. She just told him to come and get the money when he got off of work and he was a no show. The day she handed him the 1/3 wasn't even related to giving back the money. The only thing that was the same in the accounts that I heard was that that they met up, she handed him 1/3 of the money and he tried to give it back and they argued over the money.

[beeblebrox]

Borrowing from friends always suck. I got screwed out of about $150 in a housing thing. I was looking at apartments with a friend who was to become my roommate. We jumped on an apartment and I had my money with me and she didn't even bring cash with her on that day. At the end of the day, I got buyer's remorse and talked with her a few days later and backed out. I didn't have a good feeling about the apartment and the situation (she was really crass about my mother visiting and my mom's bad hip). Since I basically put down all of the money, I wanted at least the application fee back. She refused to give it back and didn't pay anything back. I was so pissed off at her (like Tom was) because I ended up losing $300 and she skated off with no loss of money. After that incident, I haven't talked to her since and cut off all contact. I can understand why he's pissed and probably didn't talk to her for a long time. When somebody betrays you on that level, you want nothing to do with them because of lost respect.

Recently, my bf bought our plane tickets to get seats next to each other. I made sure to pay him back as soon as I could. I refuse to get in debt with friends and lovers. It's a dangerous game.

[nikorock28]

Well, yeah, he should take the money. But, she shouldn't have told him she would pay him back in two months with such uncertainties in her employment. And, he should have realized this. Really, when you loan someone money, you have to be prepared that you will not get it back. This is too much drama over such a simple issue: Sue should just mail him the full amount, that way there is no question that he receives it. Like the other poster said, if he wants to burn it that is his option to do so.

[Fashionista]

Bee, just wondering-did you ever find out why your "friend" refused to pay you the fees?

I guess I will play devils advocate for Sue and say that there is a big difference between not paying on time because you can't and not paying on time or at all because you don't want too.....?

I just know from my experience i borrowed $40 from a friend and within 24hrs of getting the money she asked for it back....lol. I was mad that she would lend it and then want it back so quickly since she knew I needed it. I just gave it back and made a note never to ask her or anyone else for anything again because it's not worth the bad feelings.

[Fashionista]

Well, yeah, he should take the money. But, she shouldn't have told him she would pay him back in two months with such uncertainties in her employment. And, he should have realized this. Really, when you loan someone money, you have to be prepared that you will not get it back. This is too much drama over such a simple issue: Sue should just mail him the full amount, that way there is no question that he receives it. Like the other poster said, if he wants to burn it that is his option to do so.
Good point and I would have to agree. But what if Tom continues to make a big stink about getting the money a year or so after the fact? Everytime he gets mad he tells me and whoever else that will listen what a jerk she is for only paying 1/3 but rarely admits to the fact that she had to force the 1/3 on him and he keeps saying he does want the rest and then goes back to demanding it.

Tom just looks crazy to me which is why I sided with Sue. If you really want the money you take it. Granted she didn't pay when she said but its not like she was going on exotic trips or shopping sprees. Then the fact that they are still "friendly" makes the story even crazy to me

[beeblebrox]

Bee, just wondering-did you ever find out why your "friend" refused to pay you the fees?

If I remember, she wouldn't pay the $30 fee because she said that the transaction wasn't complete because I backed out. I also made sure that she didn't have access to the money $200 that went to the deposit. All I wanted back was the application fee. She later got a roommate and they only lasted one year.

[wordsmith]

I'd never loan money to a friend with the expectation of getting it back. I'd either not give it at all, if I was uncomfortable with doing so, or give it as a gift, and if it gets paid back, hey, bonus.

Sue is immature and in the wrong for not handling the repayment of a personal loan better. Tom is being immature for playing passive-aggressive headgames..."don't bother...no, just kidding, really, bother," and for whipping it out as his ace in the hole when he's pissed. Friends don't screw friends out of money like Sue did, and friends also don't play mind games and hold people over a barrel, like Tom did. I'd say neither acted in a friendlike manner.

[winneythepooh7]

Can't she just mail him a check if he's being so pissy about taking it in person?

[beeblebrox]

Can't she just mail him a check if he's being so pissy about taking it in person?

I can understand where Tom is coming from with the anger. Sue and my former friend sound like the type to wear a person down by not repaying on time or at all. He was probably fed up with the lack of repayment and lost respect for the friend, when Sue actually tried to repay him, he was on his last nerve with her and got angry. It takes being screwed over by a friend like that to get that angry.

[winneythepooh7]

I can understand where Tom is coming from with the anger. Sue and my former friend sound like the type to wear a person down by not repaying on time or at all. He was probably fed up with the lack of repayment and lost respect for the friend, when Sue actually tried to repay him, he was on his last nerve with her and got angry. It takes being screwed over by a friend like that to get that angry.

Yeah, but still. She should still give him the money then if he wants it. He shouldn't have to meet her in person, hence my suggestion to just mail the damn payment.:rolleyes:

[Xander]

Bottom line: Sue is morally obligated to pay back, regardless of whether Tom "wants" it or not, regardless of any lack of legal responsibility. I'd even throw in interest. A year is a hell of a long time to hold someone else's money hostage.

Tell "your friend" to get off her ass and stop making excuses.

[wordsmith]

Tom needs to grow up and accept the repayment, too, if it's important to him. It sounds a bit like what's more important to him is having some leverage to hold something over her/hang on to a reason to be pissed (which he could obviously still be, payment received or not, but he wouldn't be able to use "and you haven't even paid me money you owe me," anymore as a dig. There's no other reason not to take the money when it's being repayed unless the problem isn't actually the money.

I'd imagine he's pissed that a friend would abuse the terms of a loan (that IMO he was a dumbass to enter into, who doesn't know that acting like a bank for your friends is a bad idea?) but that's neither here nor there. In that case, if it's that big an affront and damage to the friendship, sever the friendship. Enough with the headgames.

[spokes]

tom sounds like an immature jackass - is he auditioning for the real world or something.

your friend should just send him the money via registered mail or courrier and get a copy of the cancelled cheques and call it day.

[dacrunkest]

Borrowing and lending is complicated enough, you don't want to involve friends (if you wanna keep 'em). I have lost contact with two people over borrowed money, one time was my fault (I was a freshman in college), the other time was somebody else's. It is a terrible situation to lose a friend over something so trivial as $82.

I would suggest that Sue send a postal money order payable to Tom via certified mail. Use a money order so that she doesn't have to worry about keeping the money in her account in case he decides to cash it six months later.

[fearlesss]

simple. she needs to send a certified check and get his john handcock on the delievry slip. If he cashes it or not is to him. But this shows that she acted in good faith.

[Fashionista]

when i asked what methods she used to repay she said she tried bringing it to his house a few times and then she tried calling him requesting that he get the money which he never ever does.

when i asked her about mailing it and she stated that she notices tom looses stuff all the time and would more than likely loose the check if she mailed it to him. she also said at the time tom had some ladyfriend living with him and because she didn't know the woman and didn't trust her to hand tom the letter or check she never pursued that method again.

i noticed xander put the words your friend in quotes. what do you mean by that xander? lol


but some of these comments are rather funny. i will send her the thread and let her read it and make up her mind what she should do

[nikorock28]

It doesn't matter if Tom loses the check, it doesn't matter if the ladyfriend doesn't give it to him. Your friend knows the address... just mail the check already!!!!!!

[jrwilheim]

I think "Sue" definitely has an obligation to repay, but that frankly, "Tom" is being an ass by refusing to accept installment payments or the money "Sue" offered as part of her bonus from work.

[nikorock28]

I think "Sue" definitely has an obligation to repay, but that frankly, "Tom" is being an ass by refusing to accept installment payments or the money "Sue" offered as part of her bonus from work.

True, Tom is being an a-hole, but he is the lender, not the lendee. When you are the lendee, you have to agree to the conditions of the lender. In this case, it was to pay the amount in full (and in a respectable amount of time). Other entities (gas company, cable, cell phone, mortgage lender, car company, furniture store, etc) may also be a-holes, but does that mean you don't mail them a check?

[Ciderhillnh]

If this were to go to court, it doesnt matter if Tom lost the check. As long as Sue has a copy of the cancelled check, and the signed certified letter form back in her hands, she is free and clear of her debt.

She should pay him back, whatever he decides to do from there is up to him.

Hopefully both Tom and Sue have learned a lesson here.

[and1grad]

Sounds like she tried and he refused. Ball game. Tom's an idiot.