Va. apologizes for slavery

[yankeeyosh]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/24/slavery.apology.ap/index.html

The United States, however, has not yet issued a formal apology.

[PeakDream]

Too late for our original sin, but a good gesture nevertheless.

[and1grad]

Hey, remember that whole "slavery" busines? Ya...sorry about that. Um...my bad...bro.

[Xander]

Hey, remember that whole "slavery" busines? Ya...sorry about that. Um...my bad...bro.
Hahah... It's not like anyone alive contributed to slavery, but I guess it's a nice gesture.

Oh yeah, Native Americans... sorry about the smallpox thing and taking your land. But we're keeping it. :rolleyes:

oh well...

[WorkInProgress]

I think this might come off wrong, and definitely not the way I intend it to be, so I do sincerely apologize to anyone who might be offended by it, but...

...what exactly is the point of such an apology? It seems like an empty gesture to me, and I don't understand what it accomplishes. I've got no issues at all with the fact at the apology was issued, I just don't get it.

Is it just a formal acknowledgement that the institution was morally reprehensible? And if so, what does that mean to anyone? Does it validate anyone as a person, or that person's entitlement to human rights as a human being? As a citizen? Does it mean that VA can now move on as a state? Does it mean that VA is finally becoming integrated back into the US? Does it mean that VA is moving out of the 19th century? (And, as others have already stated, will such apologies for past grievances and morally reprehensible actions occur for other people who were wronged by the government(s)?)

[capella]

I think this might come off wrong, and definitely not the way I intend it to be, so I do sincerely apologize to anyone who might be offended by it, but...

...what exactly is the point of such an apology? It seems like an empty gesture to me, and I don't understand what it accomplishes. I've got no issues at all with the fact at the apology was issued, I just don't get it.

Is it just a formal acknowledgement that the institution was morally reprehensible? And if so, what does that mean to anyone? Does it validate anyone as a person, or that person's entitlement to human rights as a human being? As a citizen? Does it mean that VA can now move on as a state? Does it mean that VA is finally becoming integrated back into the US? Does it mean that VA is moving out of the 19th century? (And, as others have already stated, will such apologies for past grievances and morally reprehensible actions occur for other people who were wronged by the government(s)?)
I agree with you. If we're going to go down this path then who else should apologize. The tribes in Africa that sold their own? I don't see what this accomplishes.

I have a side story. The other day one of my black students (while we were researching famous black Americans) turned and said to me, "Mrs. _________, don't you owe me reparations?" Oh, yes darling. Let me get that right to you while I'm working to provide a free public education to you. :rolleyes: I'll cut you a check. I don't understand this mentality. Not to take away from the tragic history here, but seriously I am not personally responsible for slavery any more than she personally had to deal with it.

[and1grad]

I think this might come off wrong, and definitely not the way I intend it to be, so I do sincerely apologize to anyone who might be offended by it, but...

...what exactly is the point of such an apology? It seems like an empty gesture to me, and I don't understand what it accomplishes. I've got no issues at all with the fact at the apology was issued, I just don't get it.

Is it just a formal acknowledgement that the institution was morally reprehensible? And if so, what does that mean to anyone? Does it validate anyone as a person, or that person's entitlement to human rights as a human being? As a citizen? Does it mean that VA can now move on as a state? Does it mean that VA is finally becoming integrated back into the US? Does it mean that VA is moving out of the 19th century? (And, as others have already stated, will such apologies for past grievances and morally reprehensible actions occur for other people who were wronged by the government(s)?)
Exactly. To me, its like going up to your friend and saying "Hey remember when I slept with your SO? Ya....sorry about that." Apology isnt gonna mean much then neither.

[PeakDream]

Actually, I see it as a good thing, because why the apology doesn't have any material behind it. It nevertheless address one of our greatest sin as a country. The fact remain that we are still live in a fairly racial segregated society. It's just a good gesture to me.

[Krishna]

Not to take away from the tragic history here, but seriously I am not personally responsible for slavery any more than she personally had to deal with it.

I'll second that. I once had someone I went to school with say to me "but you did this and this to my people. My response being..."sorry, but I was born in the urban midwest, and have never done a thing to you in my life. If you'd like to say that the white folks forced black folks into slavery, that's fine, but don't for a minute insinuate that I'm responsible for that. It's like saying that the current pope is responsible for the crusades."

[and1grad]

Actually, I see it as a good thing, because why the apology doesn't have any material behind it. It nevertheless address one of our greatest sin as a country. The fact remain that we are still live in a fairly racial segregated society. It's just a good gesture to me.
I agree wholeheartedly with the part about the racially segregated society. To me, this just fuels the separation b/c for every person that says "wow what a nice gesture", there'll be twenty that say "that had nothing to do with me." While the latter might be right, minorities deal with that kind of prejudice on pretty much a daily basis so whutteryagonnado. Meaningless gestures dont do anyone any favors.

[LakeJay]

I agree wholeheartedly with the part about the racially segregated society. To me, this just fuels the separation b/c for every person that says "wow what a nice gesture", there'll be twenty that say "that had nothing to do with me." While the latter might be right, minorities deal with that kind of prejudice on pretty much a daily basis so whutteryagonnado. Meaningless gestures dont do anyone any favors.

I don't have much to add to what everyone else has said already but I wanted to say that I totally see your point with this. It's one of those "actions speak louder than words" deals. I'm not saying that there is any action that can be done to alleviate anything and everything but I see this as probably just a blip on the screen.

[and1grad]

Its just a way for them to say they participated in "Black History Month."

[cheshrcarol]

In a way I kind of get it. Pope John Paul II apologize to the Jews on behalf of Catholocism, which is pretty similar. It obviously didn't help for the things that happened in the past, but then how much does an apology ever do? They can never really erase what happened, and yet we still want them when someone does something to us. And with the Catholic/Jewish thing, I think it was something that could contribute to improved relations, just like maybe an apology now from VA *might* be a step towards better race relations.

The more I think about it, I like that they apologized. It's not like VA just decided on its own to stop slavery, it was a result of the Civil war - and yes history people, I know it was more complicated than that.

[yankeeyosh]

Here's my take...yes, it's symbolic in a way. But if that's all it is, then we shouldn't be opening up trials for the 1963 Birmingham Sixteenth Street Church bombings or the 1964 Neshoba County, Miss. lynching trials and convicting 80 year old men. It's really a catharsis...admitting the wrongs of the past, and trying to move on.

We can stand here, in 2007, and say, oh, this stuff is all in the past...it's ancient history. It's really not...a near-slavery existed not too long ago in this country. Legalized segregation ended only fortyish years ago, and some stalwarts in the Deep South ignored those laws until the late Seventies. As much as you probably don't want to admit it, if your family is from the South, and you're white, it's almost a certainty that your grandparents supported segregation, and quite likely your parents did too at some point. There is still mistrust on both sides, and if we take a step like this to show that we are willing to talk about the issue is a small, but notable step towards true equality.

[capella]

I agree wholeheartedly with the part about the racially segregated society. To me, this just fuels the separation b/c for every person that says "wow what a nice gesture", there'll be twenty that say "that had nothing to do with me." While the latter might be right, minorities deal with that kind of prejudice on pretty much a daily basis so whutteryagonnado. Meaningless gestures dont do anyone any favors.
I agree with you that there is still rampant prejudice in this country. But I really think gestures like this do more to add fuel to the fire than to make some progress towards reducing bigotry. I say reducing because I think it's impossible to eliminate racist thinking entirely. I say let's move on instead of making useless, clap yourself on the back statements.

[capella]

Here's my take...yes, it's symbolic in a way. But if that's all it is, then we shouldn't be opening up trials for the 1963 Birmingham Sixteenth Street Church bombings or the 1964 Neshoba County, Miss. lynching trials and convicting 80 year old men. It's really a catharsis...admitting the wrongs of the past, and trying to move on.

I can see a huge, wide, gaping disparity in apologizing for slavery in this manner and convicting someone, 80 years old or not, for something they did wrong. That is a HUGE difference. I wish we would all just focus more on personal responsibility in this country.

[yankeeyosh]

I can see a huge, wide, gaping disparity in apologizing for slavery in this manner and convicting someone, 80 years old or not, for something they did wrong. That is a HUGE difference. I wish we would all just focus more on personal responsibility in this country.

That's my point. Some people argue that these people lived out their entire lives...spent the last forty years in freedom, while no justice was ever done for their victims...some as young as age eleven. So what's the point of convicting them now at such a ripe old age? But my point is that it's never too late. In the case of slavery, while it obviously isn't around in the US anymore, there are people still walking the streets of America who at one point would have preferred that we go back to that system, and did everything under their power to maintain a system that was close enough to it that white supremacy reigned (segregation).

[AshleyJordan]

I agree wholeheartedly with the part about the racially segregated society. To me, this just fuels the separation b/c for every person that says "wow what a nice gesture", there'll be twenty that say "that had nothing to do with me." While the latter might be right, minorities deal with that kind of prejudice on pretty much a daily basis so whutteryagonnado. Meaningless gestures dont do anyone any favors.

Maybe I'm just really cynical, but I think that the apology is bullshit, and basically a way to alleviate white guilt. Does it change the fact that, for example, the last time I checked, an African American man is more likely to go to jail than to finish college? Does it demand systematic change? No.

I could also just as easily take the "this has nothing to do w/ me" approach because my ancestors weren't even thinking about coming to this country during the time of slavery, but I'd be naive and deluded to think that, for all of the discrimination they faced (and to a certain extent still face,) we haven't faced far less discrimation than the average African-American.

[and1grad]

Does it change the fact that, for example, the last time I checked, an African American man is more likely to go to jail than to finish college? Does it demand systematic change? No.
No!?!? You dont think that the fact African American males are more likely to go to jail than to college SCREAMS for systematic change?

[AshleyJordan]

No!?!? You dont think that the fact African American males are more likely to go to jail than to college SCREAMS for systematic change?
That's what I'm saying-- I do think just that, that it does demand systematic change. I think an apology for slavery distracts from 'facts on the ground' like that and allows us to overlook the sad state of current events.

[AshleyJordan]

No!?!? You dont think that the fact African American males are more likely to go to jail than to college SCREAMS for systematic change?

edit--I realize my quote was unclear, the "it" I was referring to was the apology, not the stats re. African American men. Big difference, and sorry for the confusion!

[and1grad]

Ok, I get what you're saying now. I dont even think its as good as a distraction as much as its a minimalizing of the past. "Oh you know what'll make it better...an apology...and from Virginia." Look! No more racism now!

[spokes]

i obviously find these to be empty apologies and window dressing but perhaps all governments could just save a lot of time by gathering together a bunch of journalists and giving a mass apology for ever time they have ever screwed someone and we could all move on.

these apologies really don't do much to change the problems of today.

[CTGirl]

Ok, I get what you're saying now. I dont even think its as good as a distraction as much as its a minimalizing of the past. "Oh you know what'll make it better...an apology...and from Virginia." Look! No more racism now!

LOL

I agree with what the others are saying, I'm not a fan of apologies in general. I dont really care if you're sorry, and in this case in particular, cuz these people are apologizing for something that other people did, which is entirely useless.

Making changes is a lot more effective than hollow apologies.

[PeakDream]

The problem I think is that, no one knows how to make changes to make up for slavery. What do you do to make it up? A lot of people argue that look at the Japanese Americans, who lost everything during WWII, they suck it up and make it alright with nothing, and why can't the African Americans do the same? I don't think apology will achieve anything, but in a political correctness society that we live in, it's a nice thing in the media.

[Jersey_Steve]

Yawn.

Sounds like Virginia's General Assembly is coming up for re-election soon. Considering that they have nothing to be sorry for. Perhaps their ancestors owned slaves, but you can't hold the descendants responsible. Sins of the father and all that.

Every time I hear about reparations, I keep thinking of Dave Chappelle's skit on if they did get reparations. Google "dave chappelle reparations 2003" and you'll see what I mean.

[yankeeyosh]

Ok, I get what you're saying now. I dont even think its as good as a distraction as much as its a minimalizing of the past. "Oh you know what'll make it better...an apology...and from Virginia." Look! No more racism now!

As I said, this doesn't change a thing in terms of the racial imbalance. But I think that the fact that people are starting to be willing to talk about it is a positive step.

[dongle]

personally I think the entire concept of black history month is counter productive. The color of your skin doesnt make any difference in any way other then likelyhood of sunburn and skin cancer. By recognizing black accomplishments to society and apologizing for white sins from 200 years ago, we are continuing to segregate black people. Why cant we just stop all this. There is one society, that's it, one people, one nationality, period. There are no "black" accomplishments, "white" accomplishments, "yellow" accomplishments, etc, there are american accomplishments. All this nonesense with recoginizing black people as if they are somehow different is what is making people continue to think they are somehow different. The other cultures in this country dont get the same recognition. Where is Hispanic history month or all the apologies for the bad things we've done to them. Where is Asian appreciation month or the apologies for what we did to them. I'm german, should I apologize to my jewish friends?

I'm not trying to trivialize what has happened in this country's history. I'm just saying that no one alive today was in any way responsible for or a victim of that history. We are one society and we need to start acting like it. If we continue to draw attention to one racial group or another, people are going to continue to think of them as somehow different.

[meatwad]

So I heard on the news today that Strom Thurmond's grandfather or great uncle owned Al Sharpton's great-grandfather. Why am I not surprised that a couple of racist nimwits would be connected like that?

[PeakDream]

personally I think the entire concept of black history month is counter productive. The color of your skin doesnt make any difference in any way other then likelyhood of sunburn and skin cancer. By recognizing black accomplishments to society and apologizing for white sins from 200 years ago, we are continuing to segregate black people. Why cant we just stop all this. There is one society, that's it, one people, one nationality, period. There are no "black" accomplishments, "white" accomplishments, "yellow" accomplishments, etc, there are american accomplishments. All this nonesense with recoginizing black people as if they are somehow different is what is making people continue to think they are somehow different. The other cultures in this country dont get the same recognition. Where is Hispanic history month or all the apologies for the bad things we've done to them. Where is Asian appreciation month or the apologies for what we did to them. I'm german, should I apologize to my jewish friends?

I'm not trying to trivialize what has happened in this country's history. I'm just saying that no one alive today was in any way responsible for or a victim of that history. We are one society and we need to start acting like it. If we continue to draw attention to one racial group or another, people are going to continue to think of them as somehow different.
In perfect land, this might be true. The reality is that even today, we are still paying for the sins of our history, whether you like it or not. Let's face it, racism is alive and well today, Katrina demonstrated that.
As far as the whole German vs Jews issue, please do remember that Jews received massive financial settlement, and establishment of Israel. I don't think any financial settlement will ever lesson the pain of holocaust, but you have to look at the act of contrition in the best possible light. If the same financial settlement was to paid to the blacks, I think we would bankrupt the US government considering the South's economy was almost solely based on slave labor. I like that fact that the governing body of a state at least accepts the wrongs of the past.

[old_school_soul]

If we continue to draw attention to one racial group or another, people are going to continue to think of them as somehow different.

White people often wonder, "Why can't people be color blind?", mainly because they don't ever experience life as being a "color".

[wordsmith]

You do if you live somewhere where you're in the minority. Just saying.

[old_school_soul]

You do if you live somewhere where you're in the minority. Just saying.

That's my whole point.

[meatwad]

White people often wonder, "Why can't people be color blind?", mainly because they don't ever experience life as being a "color".

Yeah, well I'm not going to apologize for being white and I'm not going to apologize for for the actions of people long dead, that I never met, that did terrible things before my family ever even lived here. If the government wants to apologize that's up to them, but it seems a little late for it now.

[Winter Storm]

... but it seems a little late for it now.
It seems a lot late to me and really, unnecessary.

[old_school_soul]

Yeah, well I'm not going to apologize for being white and I'm not going to apologize for for the actions of people long dead, that I never met, that did terrible things before my family ever even lived here. If the government wants to apologize that's up to them, but it seems a little late for it now.

I'm still waiting for an official apology from the Jews for killing Jesus. Kidding.

[WorkInProgress]

I'm still waiting for an official apology from the Jews for killing Jesus. Kidding.

Shouldn't it be the Romans?

[old_school_soul]

Shouldn't it be the Romans?


Actually I never understood why people use that against Jewish people. "Jews killed Jesus!" etc.. I mean, does it matter who killed Jesus? Somebody had to. The whole point is that he died on a Cross. If he died an 80 year old man from straining too hard on a first century toilet, would Christians be wearing golden toilets around their necks? The ignorance of some people astounds me.

[wordsmith]

Shouldn't it be the Romans?

The Sanhedrin were the convicting justices, though. :p

[WorkInProgress]

The Sanhedrin were the convicting justices, though. :p
True enough, but if I recall correctly, Roman soldiers were those actually doing the dirty work. And then casting lots, etc. And yet nobody's upset with them. (Just think, we have ROMAN Catholicism for crying out loud. It never ceases to amuse me that the government system that carried out the whole thing later made the religion derived from it the state religion.)

[WorkInProgress]

Actually I never understood why people use that against Jewish people. "Jews killed Jesus!" etc.. I mean, does it matter who killed Jesus? Somebody had to. The whole point is that he died on a Cross. If he died an 80 year old man from straining too hard on a first century toilet, would Christians be wearing golden toilets around their necks? The ignorance of some people astounds me.

I wondered about that once in Sunday school. I was thinking electric chair, though.

[meatwad]

True enough, but if I recall correctly, Roman soldiers were those actually doing the dirty work. And then casting lots, etc. And yet nobody's upset with them. (Just think, we have ROMAN Catholicism for crying out loud. It never ceases to amuse me that the government system that carried out the whole thing later made the religion derived from it the state religion.)

The whole point of Christianity is "He died for our sins!" It was SUPPOSED to happen. He fucking predicted it before it even happened. Not just predicted it, God HIMSELF told him it was going to happen.

God: "Hey, buddy! What's happening!"
Jesus: "Dad! What's up?"
God: "Oh, you know. Keeping the universe in balance and all. How's your mom?"
Jesus: "She's good. She got that birthday card you sent."
God: "Good! That's good. I would have come, but it makes Joe feel uncomfortable."
Jesus: "You think? I think he's cool with everything now. I mean it's been over 30 years and all."
God: "Yeah, but it still bothers him. I mean, I do know everything."
Jesus: "Yeah, good point."
God: "Hey, Son. I hate to have to tell you this buuuuuut...you're gonna live with me now."
Jesus: "What?"
God: "Yeah, well. You know how it is. Divine plan and all. I would have told you sooner but I figured I'd let you enjoy your time and all."
Jesus: "Wow. Well, if you think it's for the best."
God: "Yeah, it is."
Jesus: "So when do I leave?"
God: "In a few weeks. Your gonna hate me but your gonna have to be arrested, beaten, publicly humiliated, carry across around the city and then be nailed to it for a few days."
Jesus: "WHAT?!"
God: "Yeeeeeeeah...your just gonna have to trust me on that one."

So shouldn't the Christians be like, "Hey! Jews! (or whoever) Thanks a lot guys. Job well done."

[wordsmith]

True enough, but if I recall correctly, Roman soldiers were those actually doing the dirty work. And then casting lots, etc. And yet nobody's upset with them. (Just think, we have ROMAN Catholicism for crying out loud. It never ceases to amuse me that the government system that carried out the whole thing later made the religion derived from it the state religion.)

Seriously. If people need to pick a group that went after Jesus, it was really just the government. Roman leaders/Jewish supreme court/priests in power/etc. Their cultural background doesn't matter half as much as the fact that Jesus' teachings, particularly those that were criticizing the privileged classes and championing the poor, bred the potential for social and governmental upheaval. Those in power, regardless of religious or cultural background, feared that his teachings would spur a power imbalance. He was a danger to the social order, and had a growing influence that was alarming to both the Roman and Jewish aristocracy. Just politics as usual.

[Winter Storm]

The whole point of Christianity is "He died for our sins!" It was SUPPOSED to happen. He fucking predicted it before it even happened. Not just predicted it, God HIMSELF told him it was going to happen.

God: "Hey, buddy! What's happening!"
Jesus: "Dad! What's up?"
God: "Oh, you know. Keeping the universe in balance and all. How's your mom?"
Jesus: "She's good. She got that birthday card you sent."
God: "Good! That's good. I would have come, but it makes Joe feel uncomfortable."
Jesus: "You think? I think he's cool with everything now. I mean it's been over 30 years and all."
God: "Yeah, but it still bothers him. I mean, I do know everything."
Jesus: "Yeah, good point."
God: "Hey, Son. I hate to have to tell you this buuuuuut...you're gonna live with me now."
Jesus: "What?"
God: "Yeah, well. You know how it is. Divine plan and all. I would have told you sooner but I figured I'd let you enjoy your time and all."
Jesus: "Wow. Well, if you think it's for the best."
God: "Yeah, it is."
Jesus: "So when do I leave?"
God: "In a few weeks. Your gonna hate me but your gonna have to be arrested, beaten, publicly humiliated, carry across around the city and then be nailed to it for a few days."
Jesus: "WHAT?!"
God: "Yeeeeeeeah...your just gonna have to trust me on that one."

So shouldn't the Christians be like, "Hey! Jews! (or whoever) Thanks a lot guys. Job well done."

hee hee hee, Meat. Thanks for the replay.

:p

[dongle]

In perfect land, this might be true. The reality is that even today, we are still paying for the sins of our history, whether you like it or not. Let's face it, racism is alive and well today, Katrina demonstrated that.

I know, that's my point, racism is alive and well. Segregation is alive and well. We continue to treat white people and black people as if they are somehow different. And I really think this sort of stuff only exacerbates the problem. Black history month implies that black people are somehow different and need special recognition. They arent, and they dont. Yes their skin is darker in color, big freakin deal. There is no left-handed appreciation month, or 7ft+ appreciation month, or blond haired appreciation month. Everyone is different and none of it matters. As long as we continue to call out this skin color thing as if it warrants special recognition, we will continue to be promoting segregation.

Now I am definitely not trying to belittle slavery or anything of the sort. I really think it was an appalling time not just in this country but around the world. But when a government like the state of virginia issues an apology to black people like that, it implies that white people owe black people an apology, that the white government owes the black common folk an apology, that white people and black people are two different groups of people! This is my whole point, they arent two different groups of people, they are one group, the people, the government, the country.



As far as the whole German vs Jews issue, please do remember that Jews received massive financial settlement, and establishment of Israel.

I meant this as more of a "I wasnt there and had nothing to do with it. My friends werent there and had nothing to do with it" example.

[meatwad]

hee hee hee, Meat. Thanks for the replay.

:p

Did you see the family guy where Jesus gets in the fight with Joseph?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od-NWgU-sUQ

[dongle]

White people often wonder, "Why can't people be color blind?", mainly because they don't ever experience life as being a "color".

This is a good point, I can only speak from my perspective. But at least I can give my perspective and a proposed solution that might work for other people that share my perspective.

[WorkInProgress]

Seriously. If people need to pick a group that went after Jesus, it was really just the government. Roman leaders/Jewish supreme court/priests in power/etc. Their cultural background doesn't matter half as much as the fact that Jesus' teachings, particularly those that were criticizing the privileged classes and championing the poor, bred the potential for social and governmental upheaval. Those in power, regardless of religious or cultural background, feared that his teachings would spur a power imbalance. He was a danger to the social order, and had a growing influence that was alarming to both the Roman and Jewish aristocracy. Just politics as usual.

I definitely do not disagree with you. I just find it interesting to cast it in post-revolutionary terms. Man, I miss history classes sometimes.

[meatwad]

This is a good point, I can only speak from my perspective. But at least I can give my perspective and a proposed solution that might work for other people that share my perspective.

Ow, my head. :madder:

[and1grad]

I think acting like color doesnt make a difference makes you either oblivious or disengenuous...or both. Its not some kind of enlightened point of view. Its sticking your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand. Closing your eyes to an obvious issue isnt finding an answer, its just figuring out a way to not deal with a problem.

[yankeeyosh]

I know, that's my point, racism is alive and well. Segregation is alive and well. We continue to treat white people and black people as if they are somehow different. And I really think this sort of stuff only exacerbates the problem. Black history month implies that black people are somehow different and need special recognition. They arent, and they dont. Yes their skin is darker in color, big freakin deal. There is no left-handed appreciation month, or 7ft+ appreciation month, or blond haired appreciation month. Everyone is different and none of it matters. As long as we continue to call out this skin color thing as if it warrants special recognition, we will continue to be promoting segregation.

I agree with you that something like black history month defeats the purpose, to an extent, of an integrated society. However, keep in mind that the other eleven months of the year...outside MLK Day...are white history months.

[meatwad]

I agree with you that something like black history month defeats the purpose, to an extent, of an integrated society. However, keep in mind that the other eleven months of the year...outside MLK Day...are white history months.

Uhhhhhhh...no?

[AshleyJordan]

I agree with you that something like black history month defeats the purpose, to an extent, of an integrated society. However, keep in mind that the other eleven months of the year...outside MLK Day...are white history months.
1) We're so far from being integrated, that this is almost an entirely theoretical discussion. Also, Black History Month/MLK day won't change that. . . to me, it's still tokenism.
2) I don't disagree that, most "months" or "days" or w/e are, in effect, for "White History" in this country. . .

[and1grad]

Pointing out, for a month, that there are certain ways that black people have contributed to the history of this country doesnt adversely affect an integrated society. Thats absurd. Who is the most recognized person during Black History ANYTHING? Martin Luther King Jr. What was his predominant message? Integration. To even imply that we're doing people a disservice by recognizing the contributions of black people to American history is ignorant.

[AshleyJordan]

Pointing out, for a month, that there are certain ways that black people have contributed to the history of this country doesnt adversely affect an integrated society. Thats absurd. Who is the most recognized person during Black History ANYTHING? Martin Luther King Jr. What was his predominant message? Integration. To even imply that we're doing people a disservice by recognizing the contributions of black people to American history is ignorant.
I'm not saying that it's a disservice but I am saying I think it's mostly a feel-good exercise to alleviate a lot of White guilt, more than a genuine discussion of race relations and current inequality.

[wordsmith]

I think the point is that this should be done ALL THE TIME, not just in a specifically designated, token month.

[and1grad]

I'm not saying that it's a disservice but I am saying I think it's mostly a feel-good exercise to alleviate a lot of White guilt, more than a genuine discussion of race relations and current inequality.
Who cares about white guilt? Black History month isnt a feel-good exercise for white people. Its informing black people that there are ways that they have had a positive impact in this country and honestly, if people think that its so bad for this country to observe that for ONE month, I feel sorry for them.

[and1grad]

I think the point is that this should be done ALL THE TIME, not just in a specifically designated, token month.
Yeah but lets get real. It wont be, will it? And calling it "token" is an insult.

[meatwad]

Yeah but lets get real. It wont be, will it? And calling it "token" is an insult.

I guess it depends on what the motivation behind it was.

[wordsmith]

Who cares about white guilt? Black History month isnt a feel-good exercise for white people. Its informing black people that there are ways that they have had a positive impact in this country and honestly, if people think that its so bad for this country to observe that for ONE month, I feel sorry for them.

Seriously? It's only for informing black people? What?

Seems to me like Black History Month is also for the benefit of non-black kids (as well as older people who've been living under rocks and never learned about the contributions of black citizens and leaders) to learn as well. Why it should be confined to a month, though, is beyond me.

[AshleyJordan]

Who cares about white guilt? Black History month isnt a feel-good exercise for white people. Its informing black people that there are ways that they have had a positive impact in this country and honestly, if people think that its so bad for this country to observe that for ONE month, I feel sorry for them.
I don't at all think that it's a disservice or bad for this country, but I do think that, in practice, (again, like apologizing for slavery,) it's a token gesture that allows a lot of white people to think, "oh, well, things aren't that bad, look how PC my kid's history class is this month, etc. etc." Even that is kind of messed up because you're right, this shouldn't be defined by white guilt/attitudes. I guess what I'm saying is that, especially by focusing on historic accomplishments, it avoids a real discussion of racism today.

[wordsmith]

I guess it depends on what the motivation behind it was.

No shit. It wasn't intended as an insult. If anything, the fact that black leaders get tossed the bone of one measly month for recognition should be the insult.

[AshleyJordan]

If anything, the fact that black leaders get tossed the bone of one measly month for recognition should be the insult.

That's basically what I'm trying to say.

[and1grad]

So then every observed day, holiday, anything is tokenism. Good to know.

[wordsmith]

I think context is everything.

[and1grad]

That's basically what I'm trying to say.
I think you two are confusing reality for idealism. Its nice to throw the it should be everyday stuff around but we all know it wont be and wont ever be.

[meatwad]

No shit. It wasn't intended as an insult. If anything, the fact that black leaders get tossed the bone of one measly month for recognition should be the insult.

Right. If it was really a noble effort, wouldn't there be Red History Month. Yellow History Month. Tan History Month. White History Month. Now if we had all of those things, it would be obvious how sill it is to have one week or month or whatever dedicated to singling out one particular group of people based on skin color. People should be integrated and history should be taught based on the lessons we've learned chronologically, not racially.

[AshleyJordan]

So then every observed day, holiday, anything is tokenism. Good to know.
Well. . . I'm a really shitty Catholic but I still get ashes on my forehead for Ash Wednesday and try to observe Lent. . . I don't know if I'd call it tokenism but maybe for "form." Might be a bad example, but this just came to mind.

[meatwad]

I think you two are confusing reality for idealism. Its nice to throw the it should be everyday stuff around but we all know it wont be and wont ever be.

Good thing we're moving forward. :rolleyes:

[and1grad]

I think context is everything.
Like using the word "token" in this thread. Clearly, context isnt everything.

[AshleyJordan]

I think you two are confusing reality for idealism.
Wouldn't be the first time I've had that problem. :rolleyes:

[and1grad]

Good thing we're moving forward. :rolleyes:
How forward do you really think we've moved? And explain to me how Black History Month is destroying progress.

[wordsmith]

I think you two are confusing reality for idealism. Its nice to throw the it should be everyday stuff around but we all know it wont be and wont ever be.

It certainly won't be if everybody's fine with "Let's honor people only in their cordoned off little snippets of time each year and pretend that that means this is an inclusive society where we feel that everyone's contributions carry equal weight, rather than teach this stuff ALL year round in our schools."

I'm not going to apologize for using the word "token" when I didn't mean anything offensive by it except to offend anybody who thinks that designating one month a year as the time to respect Black contributions to socity is all that's deserved.

For the record, I never said Black Hisotry Month was destroying anything. I think it's better than nothing, obviously, in terms of honoring contributions. But I don't really like to accept "better than nothing." In any context.

[meatwad]

How forward do you really think we've moved? And explain to me how Black History Month is destroying progress.

Looking back? Pretty fucking far.

And I don't ever remember saying it was destroying progress.

[and1grad]

It certainly won't be if everybody's fine with "Let's honor people only in their cordoned off little snippets of time each year and pretend that that means this is an inclusive society where we feel that everyone's contributions carry equal weight, rather than teach this stuff ALL year round in our schools."

I'm not going to apologize for using the word "token" when I didn't mean anything offensive by it except to offend anybody who thinks that designating one month a year as the time to respect Black contributions to socity is all that's deserved.

For the record, I never said Black Hisotry Month was destroying anything. I think it's better than nothing. But I don't really like to accept "better than nothing." In any context.
No need for an apology, Virginia.

[and1grad]

Looking back? Pretty fucking far.

And I don't ever remember saying it was destroying progress.
Really? Maybe you live in a different world than I do. Unless you think abolishing slavery is amazingly progressive. Its not. And what were you saying with your white/tan/red month comment? Werent you ridiculing the existence of Black History month? Clearly you think its wrong to have it.

[wordsmith]

I know you weren't addressing me, but I do NOT think it's wrong to have Black History Month. I do think it's wrong/foolish/insulting to act like that's nearly enough.

[and1grad]

I know you weren't addressing me, but I do NOT think it's wrong to have Black History Month. I do think it's wrong/foolish/insulting to act like that's nearly enough.
So what do you suggest? Better yet, what do you expect to happen? People are having trouble just accepting that there's a Black History MONTH...apparently, its causing segregation. You really think that people are gonna allow it to become more prevalent than that? Fat fucking chance. Also, people accept lesser than they think they should have on a regular basis. This is no exception.

[wordsmith]

I think you're really not listening to what's being said, so I'll say no more.

[and1grad]

I think you're really not listening to what's being said, so I'll say no more.
Sure.

[meatwad]

Really? Maybe you live in a different world than I do. Unless you think abolishing slavery is amazingly progressive. Its not. And what were you saying with your white/tan/red month comment? Werent you ridiculing the existence of Black History month? Clearly you think its wrong to have it.

I was trying to make a point. If you're going to have Black History Month, shouldn't there be others as well?

[and1grad]

I was trying to make a point. If you're going to have Black History Month, shouldn't there be others as well?
I think there should be. I'm really not understanding exactly where you stand. Should there be others or should there not be any?

[meatwad]

I think there should be. I'm really not understanding exactly where you stand. Should there be others or should there not be any?

I don't think we should have them. I think it's celebrating great achievements for the wrong reasons.

[yankeeyosh]

My problem has nothing to do with the month per se...it's that far too few young people...black or white or whatever...realize the contributions of African Americans to American history...not just MLK but other Civil Rights figures like Rosa Parks, Ralph Abernathy, James Chaney, etc., as well as others who made contributions elsewhere in society, like George Washington Carver, Garrett Morgan, Vivian Thomas, etc. Sadly...even among young African Americans...many people think of blacks in society on in terms of entertainment/sports.

[and1grad]

I don't think we should have them. I think it's celebrating great achievements for the wrong reasons.
I dont think its wrong to celebrate a culture. I dont think its divisive to celebrate a culture. This country will never be racially homogeneous, so I dont see a problem with acknowledging accomplishments with a race/culture-specific slant for a month.

yank, thats what the month is for. Thats why its not causing segregation nor is it tokenism. However, thinking of it as tokenism is FAR more insulting.

[WorkInProgress]

However, thinking of it as tokenism is FAR more insulting.

I agree that thinking of it in those terms is very insulting. I find the whole concept incredibly condescending. I don't see how it's NOT "tokenism" even though/if the intent is positive. (But, as we all know, I am sensitive when it comes to what is and what isn't condescending, so maybe I am misinterpreting it.)

I don't see the observation going away (and, in my area, at least on the local news channels, there is a recognized Hispanic History Month, but I can't recall which it is).

[and1grad]

Its only "tokenism" if you agree that every other holiday that we celebrate i.e. Thanksgiving is tokenism. Assuming yours, and other, tokenism comments arent relegated to this specific instance of it. Since the only reason to use the word "tokenism" is OBVIOUSLY to be condescending and insulting, maybe you should refer to the other days/months/whatever of significance to you, with the same reverence.

[meatwad]

Its only "tokenism" if you agree that every other holiday that we celebrate i.e. Thanksgiving is tokenism. Assuming yours, and other, tokenism comments arent relegated to this specific instance of it. Since the only reason to use the word "tokenism" is OBVIOUSLY to be condescending and insulting, maybe you should refer to the other days/months/whatever of significance to you, with the same reverence.

Is Black History Month a holiday?

[and1grad]

Is Black History Month a holiday?
Do you really think my point has anything to do with if Black History month was a holiday or not? Or is that rhetorical?

[dongle]

I think acting like color doesnt make a difference makes you either oblivious or disengenuous...or both. Its not some kind of enlightened point of view. Its sticking your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand. Closing your eyes to an obvious issue isnt finding an answer, its just figuring out a way to not deal with a problem.


I believe this was in response to my original post on why black history month is counter productive. I'm not "acting" like color doesnt make a difference. Color doesnt make a difference!! Those of you who think color makes a difference are segregating black people. I'm not closing my eyes to the issue, I'm trying to say that we are making it worse! Do you really think the best way to get rid of segregation and racism is to segregate accomplishments based on race?

If you are in a wheelchair and physically cant play basketball without a special olympics basketball game, then I understand the need for a special olympics basketball game to be fair to everyone. Black people are in no way handicapped to white people. Yes there is still racism and social stigma's that make it more difficult, but do you see how I'm trying to say that black history month makes that worse, not better. It's like saying that black people arent as smart as white people so you dont hear about their contributions normally without a special event to highlight all they have done. Maybe most people see that as a way of honoring the accomplishments of a specific minority, but I see it as condescending and segregating.

Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks should be taught in the regular chronology of american history. Sports heros, war heros, great scientists, great political leaders, etc should be taught based on chronology and the significance of their impact. To do otherwise is insulting. As an example, do you really want our kids learning about the great baseball players of the 20th century who smashed hundreds of home runs and threw thousands of strikeouts. And then throw in a special chapter on the black players, who maybe only had half the stats, but they're black, so they need to be pointed out anyway. That's insulting, not honoring, that's segregating, not integrating, and that's fueling racism, not smothering it. Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa are not famous because they play baseball and are black and it's time to learn about black people, they are famous because they hit the most home runs, race be damned, and that's the way it should be.

[meatwad]

Do you really think my point has anything to do with if Black History month was a holiday or not? Or is that rhetorical?

Well I was just wondering what it had to do with holidays. I usually think of MLK day as a holiday but not BHM.

[weary]

Black people are in no way handicapped to white people.

r u serious? NO way? at all?

[WorkInProgress]

Like what? Columbus Day? Take it--it means nothing to me. Presidents' Day? That's every American's, regardless of race. Memorial Day? Same as PD. Veterans' Day? Same as PD. Christmas? Take it if you want, but so many will take the day off that it may as well be a federal holiday.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that the people memorialized during Black History Month shouldn't be remembered, or their accomplishments not taught. I certainly am not making such an argument. But framing that the way it is now belittles them, to me. As if they're not important enough to learn about in the regular course of history.

[weary]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that the people memorialized during Black History Month shouldn't be remembered, or their accomplishments taught. I certainly am not making such an argument. But framing that the way it is now belittles them, to me. As if they're not important enough to learn about in the regular course of history.
while i agree with this, i'll still take it over the way history is taught now....from one point of view. when i got to college the most exciting thing to me was that i could take all these wonderful courses on the history of my own heritage...and i'm not talking the heritage in other countries. i'm talking native american indian and black history IN AMERICA. the little bit that was covered in HS was pathetic and insulting.

[meatwad]

r u serious? NO way? at all?

Shhhhhh. Don't spread the rumor. You might be in line to get your own parking space.

[old_school_soul]

I believe this was in response to my original post on why black history month is counter productive. I'm not "acting" like color doesnt make a difference. Color doesnt make a difference!! Those of you who think color makes a difference are segregating black people. I'm not closing my eyes to the issue, I'm trying to say that we are making it worse! Do you really think the best way to get rid of segregation and racism is to segregate accomplishments based on race?


I understand what your trying to say, as optimistic and naive as it sounds. You say "color doesn't make a difference" but you're speaking in theoreticals and not in reality. We are living in a society where color has made a difference since its inception. Your train of thought only works if 100% of the people believe and are taught that color doesn't make a difference. That's never going to happen, at least not until aliens attack our planet.

[and1grad]

Like what? Columbus Day? Take it--it means nothing to me. Presidents' Day? That's every American's, regardless of race. Memorial Day? Same as PD. Veterans' Day? Same as PD. Christmas? Take it if you want, but so many will take the day off that it may as well be a federal holiday.
So those are all tokenism. I'm ok with that.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that the people memorialized during Black History Month shouldn't be remembered, or their accomplishments not taught. I certainly am not making such an argument. But framing that the way it is now belittles them, to me. As if they're not important enough to learn about in the regular course of history.
Having a Black History month in no way says that black history isnt important enough to learn about in the regular course of history.

[and1grad]

dongle,
Its not that I didnt understand your position. I just think you're wrong.

[weary]

dongle,
Its not that I didnt understand your position. I just think you're wrong.
ha ha ha ha ah ha ah aha haha a ha!!!!! THAT was funny.

classic.

[meatwad]

I understand what your trying to say, as optimistic and naive as it sounds. You say "color doesn't make a difference" but you're speaking in theoreticals and not in reality. We are living in a society where color has made a difference since its inception. Your train of thought only works if 100% of the people believe and are taught that color doesn't make a difference. That's never going to happen, at least not until aliens attack our planet.

"Soon they will build a board with a nail in it so big that they will destroy themselves!"

[weary]

Having a Black History month in no way says that black history isnt important enough to learn about in the regular course of history.
but isn't that kind of why it was created in the first place? i mean if it was "important enough" to be in the original curriculum, there'd be no need for the month. just sayin'...

[WorkInProgress]

So those are all tokenism. I'm ok with that.

Having a Black History month in no way says that black history isnt important enough to learn about in the regular course of history.

Maybe I'm just more cynical than you are. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[yankeeyosh]

while i agree with this, i'll still take it over the way history is taught now....from one point of view. when i got to college the most exciting thing to me was that i could take all these wonderful courses on the history of my own heritage...and i'm not talking the heritage in other countries. i'm talking native american indian and black history IN AMERICA. the little bit that was covered in HS was pathetic and insulting.

Exactly. When I was in J. H. S., our history text books were from the early Seventies, so obviously, there was little in the way of an "inclusive" curriculum. I was fortunate enough to take a class in H. S. in African-American history, but we were insulted since the books we received were on a seventh grade reading level, at best. I took a survey history course in college, but it didn't go too much into depth. It wasn't until the past five years that I started to understand what really went on in African-American history...and BHM was an integral part of it.

[and1grad]

but isn't that kind of why it was created in the first place? i mean if it was "important enough" to be in the original curriculum, there'd be no need for the month. just sayin'...
Depends on your viewpoint. To me its a substitute, but not b/c its unimportant, but b/c it ISNT taught well in school. I think our history books do a good job of playing down a lot of things for a lot of different cultures i.e. anything that isnt white america. That said, I refuse to believe that having a month where a culture's impact cant be ignored is in some way a negative thing. Idealistic theories aside, we all know if history books were gonna change, they would have. Their purpose, in delivering a favorable historical slant to most things white america, is pretty clear.

[meatwad]

Depends on your viewpoint. To me its a substitute, but not b/c its unimportant, but b/c it ISNT taught well in school. I think our history books do a good job of playing down a lot of things for a lot of different cultures i.e. anything that isnt white america. That said, I refuse to believe that having a month where a culture's impact cant be ignored is in some way a negative thing. Idealistic theories aside, we all know if history books were gonna change, they would have. Their purpose, in delivering a favorable historical slant to most things white america, is pretty clear.

I must have had newer history books than you.

[weary]

Depends on your viewpoint. To me its a substitute, but not b/c its unimportant, but b/c it ISNT taught well in school. I think our history books do a good job of playing down a lot of things for a lot of different cultures i.e. anything that isnt white america. That said, I refuse to believe that having a month where it cant be ignored is in some way a negative thing. Idealistic theories aside, we all know if history books were gonna change, they would have. Their purpose, in delivering a favorable historical slant to most things white america, is pretty clear.
i get this. i'm not saying it's unimportant now. and it's not a negative thing (to have the month). i'm saying it was viewed that way (unimportant) for a long time, and the month was added to sort of, make up for that. and i'm sorry, but having the month doesn't make it something that can't be ignored. there are plenty who still ignore it. of every color.

[WorkInProgress]

I must have had newer history books than you.

Or different teachers, at least.

[meatwad]

Or different teachers, at least.

Could be.

[and1grad]

and i'm sorry, but having the month doesn't make it something that can't be ignored. there are plenty who still ignore it. of every color.
How bout hard to ignore then? I think it actually takes effort to completely ignore black history month for the entire month. Might not MEAN much to some but you kinda notice it.

[meatwad]

How bout hard to ignore then? I think it actually takes effort to completely ignore black history month for the entire month. Might not MEAN much to some but you kinda notice it.

I actually forgot about it completely until you and I were joking about you taking the day off last week.

[WorkInProgress]

It does seem to be a phenomenon that is confined to schools and local tv channels.

[and1grad]

I actually forgot about it completely until you and I were joking about you taking the day off last week.
But during the course of a month, it might've come up once or twice...is all i'm saying.

[dongle]

I understand what your trying to say, as optimistic and naive as it sounds. You say "color doesn't make a difference" but you're speaking in theoreticals and not in reality. We are living in a society where color has made a difference since its inception. Your train of thought only works if 100% of the people believe and are taught that color doesn't make a difference. That's never going to happen, at least not until aliens attack our planet.

I'm not being optimistic, I'm being scientific and logicical, perhaps a touch of rational as well. Can someone please tell me the biological differences between white and black people? There arent any!

Yes there is racism, that's my whole point, I keep trying to say this. There is no underlying physical difference between white and black people. But we as a society treat them like they are handicapped. That's why there is still racism.

I dont know where people get off thinking American history is taught from a white perspective about white accomplishments. I guess high school varies from state to state, but in NY, we definitely spent a disproportionate amount of time on minorities in history. We spent more time learning about the underground railroad than World War II.

[weary]

But we as a society treat them like they are handicapped. That's why there is still racism.

I dont know where people get off thinking American history is taught from a white perspective about white accomplishments. I guess high school varies from state to state, but in NY, we definitely spent a disproportionate amount of time on minorities in history. We spent more time learning about the underground railroad than World War II.

what about the fact that society treats white ppl as privileged? surely you don't think that it's just that blacks are treated as handicapped?

and, as far as american history goes, your district or school is only one in a country full of others that do NOT operate that way. maybe if more did, we wouldn't have this very debate going on in this thread.

[and1grad]

I'm not being optimistic, I'm being scientific and logicical, perhaps a touch of rational as well. Can someone please tell me the biological differences between white and black people? There arent any!
Just for fun, I'll name off a few. Skin color. Hair type. Incidence of colon cancer.
Yes there is racism, that's my whole point, I keep trying to say this. There is no underlying physical difference between white and black people. But we as a society treat them like they are handicapped. That's why there is still racism.
Pretty sure thats not why...but I think both handicapped and black people appreciate the comment.
I dont know where people get off thinking American history is taught from a white perspective about white accomplishments. I guess high school varies from state to state, but in NY, we definitely spent a disproportionate amount of time on minorities in history. We spent more time learning about the underground railroad than World War II.
You must have been the only class to do that...ever. Also, just cuz I'm curious, who's perspective do you think American history is taught from?

[dongle]

Depends on your viewpoint. To me its a substitute, but not b/c its unimportant, but b/c it ISNT taught well in school. I think our history books do a good job of playing down a lot of things for a lot of different cultures i.e. anything that isnt white america. That said, I refuse to believe that having a month where a culture's impact cant be ignored is in some way a negative thing. Idealistic theories aside, we all know if history books were gonna change, they would have. Their purpose, in delivering a favorable historical slant to most things white america, is pretty clear.

Can you give examples of what isnt being taught well? This blows my mind really, the school year isnt all that long, you cant dive in to the details of everything that has ever been done. You sort of have to pick the highlights. I think the revolutionary war is a highlight, the Civil war is another big one (and corresponding slavery issues that led up to it), the women's rights movement gets some attention, and of course the civil rights movement with Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr., you've got the two world wars, vietnam, and the cold war. I think that about sums up my American history education. Why is this "white"? Seems like a good recap of what happened that can be fit in a school year or two.

Then of course there's the rest of the world that needs to be taught in other history classes. You know, the Aztecs, Romans, Egyptians, Greeks, Chinese, Japanese, Mayans, Incas, it's a pretty big place. How much more time do you think should be spent on black history and culture?

[weary]

Also, just cuz I'm curious, who's perspective do you think American history is taught from?
i really want to know this too. really.

[cache]

what about the fact that society treats white ppl as privileged? surely you don't think that it's just that blacks are treated as handicapped?


I think nothing in this world is as easy as being born a white man in the USA...unfortunately, most of us don't realize it...

[and1grad]

Then of course there's the rest of the world that needs to be taught in other history classes. You know, the Aztecs, Romans, Egyptians, Greeks, Chinese, Japanese, Mayans, Incas, it's a pretty big place. How much more time do you think should be spent on black history and culture?
I'm gonna answer your question with a question. Why is it ok to have other history classes for those but not African American history?

[weary]

How much more time do you think should be spent on black history and culture?
it's not that not enough time is spent on black history...it's the WAY it - and other history - is taught. from a decidely white perspective.

[weary]

I think nothing in this world is as easy as being born a white man in the USA...unfortunately, most of us don't realize it...
AMEN.

[AshleyJordan]

I think nothing in this world is as easy as being born a white man in the USA...unfortunately, most of us don't realize it...
For just one day, I'd love to see what that's like. I've always assumed it must be pretty sweet. :rolleyes:

[and1grad]

it's not that not enough time is spent on black history...it's the WAY it - and other history - is taught. from a decidely white perspective.
Not that enough time IS spent on it. I just thought of something..if history were like Seinfeld, black history would probably be Newman. :)

[WorkInProgress]

I think nothing in this world is as easy as being born a white man in the USA...unfortunately, most of us don't realize it...

Knowing several, I think it's less easy that a lot of people think. Perhaps not as much, in general, or in the same league as others who have a difficult time, but it's hardly easy-peasy for white guys. Quite frankly, on a micro level, I know I've had a much easier time of it as a white female than my brother has as a white male.

[meatwad]

I think nothing in this world is as easy as being born a white man in the USA...unfortunately, most of us don't realize it...

I don't know. Beating Contra with the up up, down down, left right, left right B A Start code is pretty damn easy.

[weary]

Not that enough time IS spent on it. I just thought of something..if history were like Seinfeld, black history would probably be Newman. :)
this could be taken a couple of ways. all funny though. or sad. :p

[dongle]

Just for fun, I'll name off a few. Skin color. Hair type. Incidence of colon cancer.

Good lord you're right!! Dont forget, next month is Tall Person history month. I believe April is Blue Eye appreciation month. Personally I'm a fan of left-handed history month, because I'm left handed, and I cant stand how everything in this country is taught from a right-handed perspective. I just wish more people recognized the importance of the contributions from these different groups of people because it really isnt taught well in school. Do you know what color George Washington's eyes are, you dont do you!

There are probably a bunch of ignorant people out there that think hair, eyes, height, and skin dont matter much in a diverse society

Pretty sure thats not why...but I think both handicapped and black people appreciate the comment.

mmm yes well I do apologize to all the handicapped and black people out there who I am injustly treating as equals.


You must have been the only class to do that...ever. Also, just cuz I'm curious, who's perspective do you think American history is taught from?


Generally, history in american schools is taught from an american perspective. This however, is not necessarily true in foreign countries. I believe the spanish teach their children from the spanish perspective, in spanish too if you can believe it

[weary]

dongle, you are completely missing the point. points.

[and1grad]

Good lord you're right!! Dont forget, next month is Tall Person history month. I believe April is Blue Eye appreciation month. Personally I'm a fan of left-handed history month, because I'm left handed, and I cant stand how everything in this country is taught from a right-handed perspective. I just wish more people recognized the importance of the contributions from these different groups of people because it really isnt taught well in school. Do you know what color George Washington's eyes are, you dont do you!

There are probably a bunch of ignorant people out there that think hair, eyes, height, and skin dont matter much in a diverse society
pssst...you asked for biological differences. *shrug*
mmm yes well I do apologize to all the handicapped and black people out there who I am injustly treating as equals.
Thats why there's racism!! :googly:
Generally, history in american schools is taught from an american perspective. This however, is not necessarily true in foreign countries. I believe the spanish teach their children from the spanish perspective, in spanish too if you can believe it
ACTUALLY, I CAN believe it...if you can believe that. Kind of why we said American history is taught from the White American perspective. I love connecting the dots!!

[dongle]

I'm gonna answer your question with a question. Why is it ok to have other history classes for those but not African American history?

Did you have an Aztec History class in high school? I'm pretty sure if you did, you also had an African American history class.

You would have a case maybe if there was a Hispanic American class, a Native American class, and a Asian American class, but no African American class. Generally this is all covered in two years of American History. Again, there is a lot of stuff to talk about in one or two school years.

[cache]

Knowing several, I think it's less easy that a lot of people think. Perhaps not as much, in general, or in the same league as others who have a difficult time, but it's hardly easy-peasy for white guys. Quite frankly, on a micro level, I know I've had a much easier time of it as a white female than my brother has as a white male.


But statistically, as a white male, your brother will have higher lifetime earnings than you, will face less bias than you, will have more opportunites in almost every facet of life....all because he was born a white American male.

[weary]

ACTUALLY, I CAN believe it...if you can believe that. Kind of why we said American history is taught from the White American perspective. I love connecting the dots!!

i'm seriously hearing that ludicrous song pee-wee herman used to sing. "connect the dots! laaaaa la la la laaaa!"

:rolleyes:

[weary]

But statistically, as a white male, your brother will have higher lifetime earnings than you, will face less bias than you, will have more opportunites in almost every facet of life....all because he was born a white American male.
i think i've got jungle fever....i'm in love with cache. :D

[JChace029]

Life's tough all over. Sorry, but apologizing for something that long ago that was sadly considered "normal" is ridiculous.

[dongle]

dongle, you are completely missing the point. points.

We are just talking apples and oranges here. I think you are referring to differences between white and black people in society and I am talking about biological differences compared to normal variation from one person to the next. I think if society truly accepts that there are no physical fundamental scientific biological differences between white and black people, then all these silly racial prejudices will fall away. Most of them stem from a long time ago when people really thought there were fundamental differences and they really were two different races. I dont even like the term racial. Like there is one "race" or another. We dont refer to tall people as a "race". The talls and the shorts.

[weary]

We are just talking apples and oranges here. I think you are referring to differences between white and black people in society and I am talking about biological differences compared to normal variation from one person to the next. I think if society truly accepts that there are no physical fundamental scientific biological differences between white and black people, then all these silly racial prejudices will fall away. Most of them stem from a long time ago when people really thought there were fundamental differences and they really were two different races. I dont even like the term racial. Like there is one "race" or another. We dont refer to tall people as a "race". The talls and the shorts.
*headdesk*

[and1grad]

i'm seriously hearing that ludicrous song pee-wee herman used to sing. "connect the dots! laaaaa la la la laaaa!"

:rolleyes:
The funny thing is thats exactly what I was singing when I posted it.

dongle, arent YOU the one who said there should be those different classes?

[weary]

The funny thing is thats exactly what I was singing when I posted it.
i hope you weren't doing the voice too...

[and1grad]

Then of course there's the rest of the world that needs to be taught in other history classes. You know, the Aztecs, Romans, Egyptians, Greeks, Chinese, Japanese, Mayans, Incas, it's a pretty big place. How much more time do you think should be spent on black history and culture?
See? :)

[meatwad]

NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqmq2FsDunQ

[and1grad]

i hope you weren't doing the voice too...
You KNOW I was!!

[dongle]

Thats why there's racism!! :googly:

wait, I was being sarcastic


ACTUALLY, I CAN believe it...if you can believe that. Kind of why we said American history is taught from the White American perspective. I love connecting the dots!!

I think you missed my subtle insinuation that american history is not taught by people of one skin color or another, but by the people of the country, a diverse representation of all.

[weary]

You KNOW I was!!
i am taking away your cool card. :p

[dongle]

The funny thing is thats exactly what I was singing when I posted it.

dongle, arent YOU the one who said there should be those different classes?

wait, what? No? I said their arent those other classes, so a lack of an African American class as well isnt all that unusual

[and1grad]

i am taking away your cool card. :p
Cool? I passed cool in 5th grade. Frozen solid, baby. Better put on a coat b4 you come for THAT card. I'm just sayin!! :lol:

[meatwad]

"What's a Nubian?"

[WorkInProgress]

But statistically, as a white male, your brother will have higher lifetime earnings than you, will face less bias than you, will have more opportunites in almost every facet of life....all because he was born a white American male.

I can guarantee that isn't the case thus far. He's having significantly more difficulty finding a decent job than I did (I think largely because I got luckier than he did). He hasn't ever had a job that's paid even close to what I've had (he just graduated, so I'm talking summer jobs). He's had a harder time getting into colleges he wanted (partly his fault, due to his school performance, but partly not, when others who he knew that were less qualified, academically and test-score wise, but not white males got in to the same schools that rejected his application). Sure, he might not face the same "OMG, what if he has a kid" type of bias at a job that I might because he's a guy. If he ends up having more lifetime earnings than I do, I suspect it'll be because I intend to be a SAHM at some point, and not drawing an income, and that will have an effect on my career after I have kids too.

What opportunities am I missing? Meeting women? Upward mobility? Ability to get a loan? Dealing with mechanics?

Maybe I'm looking at this from too small a perspective, but no. The statistics, don't prove to be true in this case.

[meatwad]

What opportunities am I missing? Meeting women? Upward mobility? Ability to get a loan? Dealing with mechanics?

Maybe I'm looking at this from too small a perspective, but no. The statistics, don't prove to be true in this case.

Peeing standing up comes to mind.

[WorkInProgress]

Peeing standing up comes to mind.

Good point. That ability would be handy while camping.

[meatwad]

Good point. That ability would be handy while camping.

That's why the good Lord invented Snapple bottles.

[dongle]

Maybe I'm looking at this from too small a perspective, but no. The statistics, don't prove to be true in this case.

Statistics are tricky. While I dont necessarily disagree with them, I think they are a bit skewed. Most of the highest earning people in the workforce started their careers in the 60's and 70's when racial division was still largely practiced. Consequently, a majority of the 50 and 60 somethings in the workforce are white, making it seem like black people cant get a job and dont make as much. This may be true today as well, but statistics can easily skew the number

[WorkInProgress]

That's why the good Lord invented Snapple bottles.

My aim's not that good, and it still requires me to get bare-assed, which gets damn cold in the mornings.

[meatwad]

My aim's not that good, and it still requires me to get bare-assed, which gets damn cold in the mornings.

How do you think I feel? Every time I take a leak I have to be careful not to let the damn thing drag on the ground and get all dirty. :evil:

[and1grad]

My aim's not that good, and it still requires me to get bare-assed, which gets damn cold in the mornings.
Soooooo...funnel?

[WorkInProgress]

Soooooo...funnel?

That only fixes the one problem.

[meatwad]

How do you think I feel? Every time I take a leak I have to be careful not to let the damn thing drag on the ground and get all dirty. :evil:

HEY! I just remembered one way that blacks are physically different from whites! There dongle. How's your theory look now? :p

[and1grad]

HEY! I just remembered one way that blacks are physically different from whites! There dongle. How's your theory look now? :p
Ya! Black people dont pee in Snapple Bottles! Take that!

[dongle]

Ya! Black people dont pee in Snapple Bottles! Take that!

Peeing in snapple bottles is more behavioral than biological. A four foot schlong that drags on the ground when you pee, now that is 100% biological