Perpetual Girl Next Door

[wordsmith]

Males, I know you're out there - how 'bout a hand with this one, okay?

Would any of you ever, under any circumstances, consider dating a woman you're friends with? I'm finding it to be a trend that I'll sometimes develop feelings for someone (not always, I'm not a needy psycho or anything!), only to get the inevitable "I just see you as a friend," or "You're a great friend and I don't want to ruin that" shootdown speech.

This creates a problem for me, because I'm not generally attracted to guys unless a quality friendship has been formed first - I'm more into the personal connection than physical attraction or "love at first sight," and it's hard to gague that connection without first becoming friendly. But it looks like forming those friendships is knocking me out of the running for girlfriend consideration, in most cases - does being a friend automatically make one undesirable? It seems like it lately.

I was wondering if it's some kind of general consensus among men (or at least 20-something men) - "Girlfriends are girlfriends and girl friends are girl friends" - 'cause I don't seem to be able to get beyond "girl friend" status lately.

Male perspective/thoughts would be helpful on this, since I'm afraid I'm laboring under the delusion that the friend connection is as important to others as it is to me. But I'd also like to hear from women, and know if this is unique to me, or if there are other women out there who feel like the perpetually overlooked pal from an 80's John Hughes movie.

[Bradley]

This is the way I see it. In general, people do not have sex with, date, or form long lasting romantic relationships with people they are "friends" with. This goes for both males and females. If you want men to look at you in a romantic way, then you must behave in a manner that provokes such a feeling from them. This means that you must also behave in a way that knocks you out of the friend zone from the start. You must flirt and not act like a friend from the time you first meet them. People can usually guage whether they are attracted to someone outside of the friend zone within a first few minutes of meeting them. This is the way I see it. If you or anybody on this post thinks back as to who they dated, had sex with, or had a meaningful romantic relationship with, I am sure they were attracted to the person almost within minutes of seeing or meeting them. I might be wrong, but this is the way I see it. Yes you are right, you should get to know someone before you start a romantic relationship or have sex with him/her. You get to know them from flirting, conversation, and dating them. On the date, you should not be acting like a friend either. I am not saying to grope men or to constantly use sexually suggestive flirting. I am talking about simple things like innocent/harmless touching and cute flirting. Again, you must behave in this fashion upon first meeting them. Do not act like a man's therapist either. Do not let him be your therapist either. I am not saying you do this, but this is one way in which people are placed in to the "friend zone." A good thing about not acting like a friend from the beginning is that you will not get hurt and cut your losses easily. One way in which you get to know a male is through flirting. If he does not go along with it, then you know he is not interested. Therefore you are not placed in the friend or potential lover category. You will know this quickly. However, if he does go along with how you behave towards him, you are not in the friend category and will be put in the potential lover category. Its that simple. You lose nothing this way. Another word on sex. I do not know if you are the type of person who likes to have sex with a man in a short period of time or if you are the type that likes to wait a considerable amount of time until you have sex with a man you are dating. To give you some reality and from a male's knowledge and point of view, most men (and females!) over about 21 years old will not see someone who is not going to provide sex. They will just simply look elsewhere for someone who does. This is another way in which someone will be placed into the friend zone. I do not know you and I do not know how sexual you are. However, from what I know men (even the ones I know remotely) will not stay around for a female who does not have sex with them. I hope what I have said makes some sense. If you want more knowledge on the topic I suggest you read the book How to Succeed With Men by Ron Louis and David Copeland. They talk about the issue of friends and why females are placed in such a category. I have their book How to Succeed With Women and it talks about the reverse situation as well. I hope this helps. Here is the link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735201404/qid=1013879698/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_7_2/102-7354539-5367365

[Unregistered]

You are not alone, I feel like the perpetual friend. But like the person who originally started this topic, i feel like I do enough flirting but it never develops beyond that. I wish some guys would answer this, and tell us if they would ever consider turning a girl friend into a girlfriend. I'd also like to know why they might flirt like CRAZY with their girl friend but never initiate the next step.

[Bradley]

Yes, there are girls that are friends of guys who want them. They might flirt and not take the next step because they are scared, nervous, shy, or just might not know about how to go about asking a girl out or asking their friend out in particular. My advice for someone who wants to get out of the friend zone is to disappear for a period of time, say about a few weeks or months. Come back into the picture when you feel the time is right and initiate things differently and do not act like a friend. If you would feel comfortable, could one of you give me a specific scenario that you have experienced or are going through and maybe the people on this board or myself can help.

[crazywillie]

Caught in the friends zone huh? well first you have to do a thorough self-eval.

When I meet "friends" if they want to move out of the friend zone then they must be into a lot of the same things I am (sports, working out, etc, etc). A lot of my friends are just that because I do not find them attractive, period.

I have a lot of girl/friends abd I've even hooked up with a few, but we laugh it off as drunken behavior and are cool about it, we tried there were no sparks and now we're cool about it.

But take a good look at yourself, and remember...guys are shallow, we are, we like hot chicks, so do your best to look good whenever you are around this person without making it obvious.

Good Luck

[Phoenix]

I'm of the opinion that a lot of guys are wary about dating their friends for the reason that they may lose them as a friend or things will be weird if they hook up and it doesn't work out. I also think that sometimes guys may just be interested in hooking up without the relationship aspect - and they may not want to put their girl friend in a situation like that because they are friends with them (whereas they would go for the hookup w/ a girl they weren't friends w/ because there isn't as much at risk).

I think the friend connection is important because you know what a person is like better than you would have had you just met them and got to know them as you dated (there's more pressure to put forth your best impressions when you're dating rather than truly getting to know someone w/o the dating element involved at first). I have also felt like the overlooked pal from a John Hughes movie at times. But I'm also of the opinion that if the guy can't see something great right in front of him, he may not be worth dating in the end.

[Jadwin]

wordsmith,

I hope that you still come here to check on this post. I can tell you for certain that there are guys out there that are looking for a friend - a best friend - to be with.

I recently fell for girl who literally lived next door. In no time she became my best friend, and I was hers. We were such an amazing match. I felt like no one ever REALLY knew me before she came along; even people I'd seriously dated. According to her, she felt the same.

However (which is just a fancy "but"), when I finally threw the cards on the table she didn't feel the same way I did. It hurt a lot. It hurts right now as I write this, but I still have faith in the friend-to-relationship connection. I'm convinced that being close friends is an amazing way build a partnership, which to me is the fundamental ingredient of a good marriage.

Have faith and take your time. If you see a long term trend emerging, look hard at the people you're attracted to. A lot of times there is an underlying pattern and something specific that you seek in people that may not be in your best interest.

In any case, I truly believe that you're on the right track. Do me a favor and convince the girl that lives next door to me.

[Antonina]

I have tried to convert friends into boyfriends in the past, but have only met with minimal success. In the first instance, the boy was initially very reluctant - there was always plenty of flirting but it took more than a year to get off the ground. Pure persistence got me through (I am not a shy chick!), and we went out for 9 months, but it was a rather lukewarm relationship. In retrospect, I think I have realised that there had been probably more to the reluctance than just the often-cited hesitation about losing the friendship etc. I think now that if there was resistance in the first place, that often the real unsaid reason behind it is that they actually don't fancy you enough. Relationships start because sparks fly. If the sparks don't go both ways, there is no point!

I suspect that the bottom line with male friends who decline to go into a relationship with a female friend who lays her cards out on the table is that they are not attracted enough. It has nothing to do with the fact that "all guys are bastards (not all are!)", it has nothing to do with whether either party is really attractive or not, it just has to do with the fact that the guy feels like he is not seeing his "perfect girl". Whether he is right about it or not is another matter- any which way, there is not much you can do about it but just to bite the bullet, move on and keep the faith that one of these days you meet the male friend who is so perfectly compatible with you that he needs no convincing about the sparks. Good luck!

[wordsmith]

I started this thread a couple of months back, just now came back to check up on it beyond the initial responses I got.

Interestingly, here is what the past couple of months have taught me:

In an effort to get over my disappointment that the guy I had felt for a while (too long) was "the one" for me apparently doesn't agree wth me, I decided to take some of the early-on advice. When meeting new people, I tried to stay clear of the friends zone from the get-go...more flirtatious, less chummy, etc. And, it worked, very well. But invariably, I found that I was attracting all kinds of guys that I wasn't into, and would have figured that out early on if I'd just been my usual gir-next-door-self, not the flirtation queen.

Also, while they might have been (sexually) attracted to me, I got the intense feeling most of them couldn't have cared less about who I am, what I'm really like, what makes me tick, etc. and that SOOO just doesn't do it for me. I'm now bored with the whole scene.

I WANT to date someone I'm friends with first - bottom line. Maybe someday, I'll find someone who feels the same...sees me as a friend WITH the added bonus of attraction. But I know for sure now that I'm not about to settle for anything less. Forget that.

**Oh, edited to say thanks to haley and Jadwin for giving me that extra kick in the butt in confirming that I am ultimately on the right track with this philosophy. Thanks, guys!

[Jayesh]

Ok, I'm a new member, and after reading this thread I'm convinced men are pigs.. well atleast half of them are, and I'm a man!!! No wonder women give us such a hard time, because half of us is giving us a bad name. I beleive the concept of not dating your friends is total crock!!
I think the only person who would do that is insecure about himself, and would rather put up a "front" to attract a stranger than develop a relationship with someone who truly knows him.

[wordsmith]

Rock on, Jayesh...continued developments in my social life have served to further reinforce the fact that avoiding letting friendships to form in order to score a romantic relationship is a COMPLETE crock! I've experienced firsthand how easy it is for random people you date and don't have a past to screw you over...No thank you. Not that friends can't hurt you, too, but it's less likely...

[narbie]

Ok, so I'm in the same boat...you know, one of the guys. So anybody have suggestions on how to get a guy to see you as more than just a friend? Don't say dress sexy and flirt...already tried that.

[Jayesh]

Ummm.. have you tried talking?? The guy might feel wierd if you suddenly started dressing sexy and flirting. Well, if the guy is like me, he would me terribly confused and think you are giving mixed signals. You have to remember that guys are usually direct, and most guys, wouldnt take up on hints. Just talk to him, tell him that you like him, and tell him how you feel.
Trust me, if both of you are right for each other, it will work

It doesnt hurt to dress nice, though

[narbie]

Yeah but my problem is what do you say? I'm afraid of the possibility of rejection and losing a fiend or just having it be awkward. How do I feel him out without going out on a limb?

[Jayesh]

Narbie,

I understand your hesitation, but what's the worst that will happen. You will lose a friend, right?? Now, tell me is that soooo bad? How many of your friends are you still chummy with? Havent you lost friends because of your career, changes in life etc? OTH, the best thing that might happen is that both of you get together. Is it worth the risk? I think you are the only one who can answer that

And I understand you fear of getting rejected too, but even if you do get rejected, what's the worst that might happen.. a little embaressment, right? Guys shouldnt be the only ones making the first move you know. Girls have to take the risk sometimes too

[Jared]

I know the feeling. It's hard to express your feelings to a friend for fear of rejection and perhaps even losing that friendship. Sometimes you care for that someone too much that being a friend is better that losing it all; however, would you not take the chance to be more than friends? A wise man once said, "It's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all" -- or something like that.

If you are afraid of losing that friendship, then maybe your friendship with this someone is not as strong as you think. I have fallen for a friend. I told her what I felt about her, and like my worst nightmare, she didn't feel the same way towards me. I've heard that "let's just be friends" speech one too many times. Our friendship is very important to me, and I was afraid that it was over with. Well, we worked it out, and although it was rather awkward at first, we still remain good friends. It hurt, and it still does, but at least I know where I stand.

Try breaking the ice with hints through jokes or something. Who knows maybe love is staring you right in the eye. Just go out there and take your chance.

[greene54]

Here's two cents from a guy.
I always fall into the "nice friend who listens" category with women. Sadly, I've analyzed this situation inside and out. What I've come to is this. Romance and attraction needs conflict and mystery. Now this doesn't apply all the time, but I've found it does apply quite often. If you find yourself falling into the "friend" category, it could be for several reasons. You may be going out of your way to be agreeable, you may be making yourself too available, and you may be hanging out for too long. Like I mentioned to Narbie, try to be more "here and gone", more rough-around-the-edges, and don't bend over backwards for anyone. Make it clear from the beginning what you want, and slip out the door. And put on a good perfume.

[haley]

I have another idea:

Maybe if you're known as the "great listener" and girls/guys that you are attracted to don't feel the same way, maybe it's because that kind of person isn't your type. I've met someone who actually appreciates that I listen.

But I also think we make ourselves far too agreeable for our own good. I think we misplace our own personality just to be liked or loved. The problem isn't that we listen and make ourselves available. It may be that we care too much to be known as a nice person. We all can sense when someone's doing that to us, and it rings insincere.

Gotta good book for that: "Too Nice For Your Own Good" by Duke Robinson. Excellent, very practical book. Will hit a bullseye in your heart if you have this problem.

Play hard-to-get, as greene54 was alluding to. Some people, like myself, don't like to do that as it's akin to playing games - after all, we like to be honest, right? But playing hard-to-get has its benefits. Do you ever experience that by acting a certain persona, you start to feel the persona? Like, act confident in a party and people will respond differently, thus you gain more confidence. Right? Playing hard-to-get helped me gain some perspective and self-satisfaction. Bye.

[Midways]

Once you have sex with someone, it's extremely hard to stay only friends. You can't have that kind of intimacy, and then suddenly not the next time you walk into the room.

You would need to make them have a "re-evaluating" moment, where they realize you as a potential mate instead of a friend.

[erika36]

It cracks me up; when I was in high school, I had these crushes but they too, thought I was just the friend-type. And while guys flirted with me or came on to me, they didn't want relationships.

Now that I don't want a relationship at all and would rather just meet some guys to be friends with, all I attract are guys who either want relationships or sex. :rolleyes:

[ywt]

Nice old thread here, but I'll chime in anyway.

As a male, I've found that it can work both ways. There have been girls I've been friends with where it turned into something more, and other girls that I've been friends with and only ever had the intent of being friends.

About the only real difference between the two groups is one that's hard to view quantitatively. The girls that eventually turned into girlfriends...there was always a spark there. Not even necessarily a spark of infatuation but something almost subconscious where they'd look at me a certain way and I could feel my heartrate increase.

I realize this isn't necessarily going to help in terms of defining what the difference is, but to me, it is certainly possible for a girl to go from a friend, to a girlfriend.

[LilGuillermo]

I'll tell ya, of all the girls I've ever known, the one that I felt that I connected with the most was one that I was friends with. When I first met her I wasn't all that physically attracted to her, but as I got to know her that kinda turned around. Then I kinda relayed to her how I felt and coincidentally she went off to save the world (travelled to a foreign country and got an internship somewhere else or something like that) and everything came to an end:cry: ...now, back to the topic, the marriages I've seen in my life that were and/or are the happiest were the ones that were based on friendship. My great aunt and uncle were married for 50 years and they had vast mutual hobbies and travelled the world together. But for me, as has been said, there'd have to be some kinda sparks there...not necessarily enough spark for a disney cartoon romance but just something lustful I guess you could say, and being friends with a girl can bring that about as I mentioned...

[wordsmith]

Holy crap, I think this is one of the first threads I ever posted on QLC - how odd to see it topped years later!

Funny postscript - I found a great friend who has become a great boyfriend, and we've been living together for nearly a year. Good thing I didn't give up!

[yogaflame13]

the topic of this thread really hits home with me (although I'm a guy!).

I wanna smack myself most of the time, cause I usually need to be around a girl for a bit before I realize that I am interested in her as a girlfriend. So, what happens usually is, we become friends, and then I really get the impression that if I revealed any romantic feelings, she would be totally freaked out cause I wasn't upfront about it from the start...how could I be, though, when I am unsure????

I really think it is best to immediately approach a girl you might be interested in and ask her out, and make it obvious its a date kinda thing, rather than being a "friend" in order to get to know her, cause then I will like her, but she will only see me as a friend!! It is soooo messed up!!!

The one time recently I did it "right" I wound up not having feelings for the girl, and she really DID like me, so then I had to break it off with her, and that sucked too, so no winning either way for me. :P

[spiritedaway]

I think it work both ways. I am usually only attracted to guys I'm friends with first. Not that it's intentional, it's always just ended up working out that way. The guy that I had a major crush on a few years ago was someone I wasn't even interested in until I get to know him personally.

Of course, even as friends, we had that little spark (the something intangible) that is always there. Not all guys friends have that (it's like a connection), and that's why some people are just friends and others can become more than friends.

[vinsanity]

There's this one female friend I have from college, and during that time, I never imagined or considered dating her. Just didn't see her as my type. Fast forward to 4 years later, and we spend a weekend out of town together, both of us single again, and opening up the possibility to turn the friendship into something more.

I don't know how exactly; maybe the timing wasn't right, but as the weekend progressed, somehow I started to realize that we would be better off as friends. Not to rule out the possibility of dating other female friends, but in this case, I got the impression that she seemed to be a different person as a girlfriend than as a friend. I was reminded why over the course of 4 years, I had no intention of dating her.