Why pay your dues?

[jrwilheim]

Okay...by "pay your dues", I don't mean work long hours, put a lot of effort into your job, etc. What I mean is this:

It used to be, in a lot of companies, there was a sort of contract. Workers would start out doing a lot of tedious administrative crap that needed to get done, with the promise that if they did their jobs well and were loyal to the company, eventually they would be promoted and get to do things that actually involved using their brains.

I feel like nowadays, corporate America has kind of broken with that completely: by replacing entry-level jobs with unpaid internships, by making their lowest people on the totem pole constantly have to worry about their jobs being shipped off to China, by layoffs, etc.

So I'm starting to wonder...why are so many people our age still going after these kinds of entry-level corporate jobs, when the contract has been so thoroughly broken? Why spend 5-6 years of your life not using any of your talents when all of the promises about what you would get in return are no longer being kept? Is it just that we can't imagine anything better out there?

[pisces2473]

I try to do enough to get by, to make the bosses happy...and learn as much as I can. I do this so that I can leave the company, and "climb the ladder" to another company, instead of the old days' climbing the ladder within the company.

We'll see if it works.

[wordsmith]

I was okay with starting at the bottom, because I had to learn from the bottom...I had no experience in my field. To start out at a higher level, I'd have been inequipped. I needed the experience. I did get promoted, and quickly, however. Had I not, I'd not have stayed.

[WorkInProgress]

I think it really depends on the kind of company, and the kind of work they do. Some companies are not really designed the way you have described.

And I wonder if the "the way it used to be" isn't in some way, kind of a myth. I don't know anyone who lived it "the way it used to be." It's possible that my sample is just atypical, though.

[winneythepooh7]

It seems to me that you really despise anything related to corporate America, so why continue to pursue those kinds of jobs at any capacity/level? I also strongly feel that everyone's experience at their place of employment can be different, so what you are saying in a sense can be a big generalization.

[NewMrs.]

It seems to me that you really despise anything related to corporate America, so why continue to pursue those kinds of jobs at any capacity/level? I also strongly feel that everyone's experience at their place of employment can be different, so what you are saying in a sense can be a big generalization.


In my personal life (meaning excluding my co-workers and former co-workers) I only know a few people who actually work in corporate America. I just turned 30, and it has been my experience that the people I have stayed in touch with who are my age aren't dying to get into corporate America.

It has been my observation that most of the people I know are deciding what's important to them and modeling their own way of living around this. For instance, my husband and I are friends with a bunch of brothers around our age who all got sick of the rat race and started their own landscaping company.

There have been a bunch of threads already about the pros and cons of self employment.

I personally have chosen to work in the corporate world because I can't handle risk and I like to get a steady paycheck. Everybody makes their own decisions for different reasons.

[shorty]

I would think it's because people are desperate for any kind of experience.

But actually, I don't know if that's really that common. I think it's more common for people to pay their dues through long hours and such, rather than taking unpaid internships. But maybe it's just because I haven't seen those or been exposed to those.

[EggGirl]

My company (nearly 3,000 empoyees) promotes almost entirely from within so I can tell you if you are a new college grad. applying for something non-entry level you'd be hard pressed to get it even if you got an interview.

In addition, the majority of entry level jobs we have here will not be shipped abroad because many are in division that couldn't tolerate the time delay a staff in India would require. We are augmenting other resources, however, that do not have such stringent time issues such is IS--sadly. Also, I consider administrative work entry level, and supporting an executive will never be outsourced or eliminted.

I've moved several times to get promoted because I do not have the patience to work for 5-6 years in a boring job just hoping to be promoted. None of the jobs I've vacated, even the entry level ones, have been outsourced. I really feel that if you want something, you can't rely on others to give it to you. So I am not loyal to any company. I am more loyal to people, and I will talk to a boss before considering moving on to see if they see any opportunities for more challenging assignments in my future. If they don't, it's all fair and I start moving on.

[EmberMae]

I agree that things have changed in that I don't think there are as many opportunities to be promoted from that entry level job. My ex bf's grandfather started his job as a mail clerk and was promoted, eventually became an accountant. He never did have a degree. That kind of thing just doesn't happen much anymore. You have to have the right connections to get the better jobs. Instead of admin assistant being seen as an entry level job that can lead to better things, it seems to be more likely as a dead end. Why will people take this kind of job? I think it's more like they don't have much of a choice.

[pisces2473]

My current company isn't very "corporate" in the Office Space sense. It's very chill and relaxed. However, it does promote from within.

Promotion from within has its downfalls too. People get hurt, feel slighted. There's no perfect situation.

[red]

You have to have the right connections to get the better jobs. Instead of admin assistant being seen as an entry level job that can lead to better things, it seems to be more likely as a dead end.

This has been my experience working at my corporation. LOTS of admin/assistants with ivy league degrees. people mostly age out and leave the industry (grad school, law school, leave to have a family, etc) rather than get promoted. It seems like the jobs have become so specialized and narrow and they only want people with this exact experience or that. So usually most jobs are filled from the outside.

[wordsmith]

I know I certainly lean away (far, far away) from corporate atmosphere type jobs for myself. But jobs that lack that environment have their own challenges, as well. There are tradeoffs.

But, really, I do feel that if you're super disgusted with corporate America (or your perception of corporate America, whichever applies), look elsewhere. Find an environment that suits you, instead of expecting that the environment will change to suit your wishes.

[winneythepooh7]

I know I certainly lean away (far, far away) from corporate atmosphere type jobs for myself. But jobs that lack that environment have their own challenges, as well. There are tradeoffs.

But, really, I do feel that if you're super disgusted with corporate America (or your perception of corporate America, whichever applies), look elsewhere. Find an environment that suits you, instead of expecting that the environment will change to suit your wishes.

You hit the nail on the head.

[yankeeyosh]

I work in an uber-corporate environment...probably one of the ten most "corporate-oriented" companies in America; yet, it may be impossible to get a promotion. In my role, for instance, data analyst is as high as you can get...4% raises forever. If a company has a lot of "lifers", you might be hard pressed to get into a higher-level role since the "lifer" won't go away.

I know this is not exactly the most popular opinion, and I know people are going to hiss, but I really think that "paying your dues" has become passe for a large portion of the 20-something population. As recently as ten years ago, most recent grads would not even consider a job that requires more experience than they actually have. Nowadays, it is quite common to see people with one or two years' experience seeking jobs that require 5-10 years...and many times, they actually get the jobs. I think that companies are starting to realize now that experience is not the end all-be all, and it is really the specific skills one has. This will become more important in these days of specialization. For instance, if a company has a position that requires five years' experience of creating XYZ, and you have a candidate that has five years' experience creating something close to XYZ but not exactly that, and someone who has only two years' experience creating XYZ, it is quite likely that the company will choose the latter over the former. I don't know if this is fair...I am starting to think that it might be, but nonetheless, it is rather common.

[winneythepooh7]

Sometimes as well, I think people applying for jobs are just not familiar with what are normal expectations for their chosen field. Just yesterday in fact, I saw someone write on my social worker message board that she read that "the average salary for an MSW level social worker in NYC is $60K a year". I'm a MSW-level social worker with many years of human service experience under my belt, and I don't make that much money per year, and I am in a supervisory role. Honestly, I don't think I know any social workers off the top of my head who make that much money who work in NYC. I probably make a little more than some of my colleagues and that is probably because I work for a huge company, that is very "corporatey" so they have more money to play around with for my salary. I think talking to real live people in jobs you are interested in pursuing is the best way to go, especially if you want to learn about opportunities for advancement.

[yankeeyosh]

Sometimes as well, I think people applying for jobs are just not familiar with what are normal expectations for their chosen field. Just yesterday in fact, I saw someone write on my social worker message board that she read that "the average salary for an MSW level social worker in NYC is $60K a year". I'm a MSW-level social worker with many years of human service experience under my belt, and I don't make that much money per year, and I am in a supervisory role. Honestly, I don't think I know any social workers off the top of my head who make that much money who work in NYC. I probably make a little more than some of my colleagues and that is probably because I work for a huge company, that is very "corporatey" so they have more money to play around with for my salary. I think talking to real live people in jobs you are interested in pursuing is the best way to go, especially if you want to learn about opportunities for advancement.

Or, they base their salary expectations on a range more geared towards someone with more experience (but the same title) or in a more lucrative industry.

[winneythepooh7]

Or, they base their salary expectations on a range more geared towards someone with more experience (but the same title) or in a more lucrative industry.

Yes, I agree. A problem with my field in general is that there is a wide-range of people who work in it, from HS-diploma level-PhD level who call themselves social workers, therapists, etc.

[jrwilheim]

It seems to me that you really despise anything related to corporate America, so why continue to pursue those kinds of jobs at any capacity/level? I also strongly feel that everyone's experience at their place of employment can be different, so what you are saying in a sense can be a big generalization.

That's why I'm opting to go into teaching ESL. Besides the advantages of a worldwide market and strong demand, it is less corporate, and you don't end up doing something that doesn't use your mind or spirit in the hopes of moving up.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone's choices. It just seems as though I meet so many people my age who have gotten stuck in these kinds of hampster-wheel jobs but feel they have to tough it out, and my question is--why? I'm not against anyone taking a low-on-the-totem-pole job where there really is opportunity to get experience, etc. Just the kind where you do administrative crap that doesn't really teach you anything.

[caostotale]

I'm not trying to belittle anyone's choices. It just seems as though I meet so many people my age who have gotten stuck in these kinds of hampster-wheel jobs but feel they have to tough it out, and my question is--why? I'm not against anyone taking a low-on-the-totem-pole job where there really is opportunity to get experience, etc. Just the kind where you do administrative crap that doesn't really teach you anything.

It's because our generation has been subjected to a more rigorous yet also more liberal education, in which we're paradoxically bombarded with opposite pressures to strive for excellence (a social pressure built up as meritocracy) and "pursue our dreams" as individuals. Yet, despite this me-generation propaganda, the bitter and greedy generations before us (who still have all the money and the best forms of capital) have shrunken the possibilities of individual pursuit and utterly destoyed the chances for a small business to survive. On top of that, the job market (especially in America) is oversaturated by foreigners who will work for half of what an American expects out of high-school (and I'm sure many of us have heard plenty about our parents' job histories - much more straight-forward and much more wiggle-room than we have, I think).

I think "paying dues" is a crock and that people use it as a desperate excuse to justify things like anxiety that causes them to not leave a crap job. I've met plenty of sad-sack lifers who've been paying their dues for decades and have never actually felt that they've achieved full respect from the workplace.

The 5-10 years experience requisites for what are essentially foot-in-the-door and low-pay jobs show that hiring managers are spoiled rotten by cowardly lifers everywhere. Yet we're also expected to have gone to college somehow. The question I have lately is, honestly, "what the f##k is the point of college anymore (at least liberal arts, which certainly requires the heaviest justification)?" The answer I have is that it's a big stinking product and everyone's buying. The arguments that college imparts reasoning skills, writing abilities, networking abilities, etc.. is 95% utter b.s.. I'm pretty sure most people who are good at that stuff went into college that way.

I hate how, in interviews, I've felt very vulnerable whenever I've mentioned individual pursuits (such as my degree and personal goals) with a positive outlook. It seems it's only good to be an individual if your individualism is abandoned or severely curbed in the interest of insincerely fellating some company's industry goals. The assholes I work for never seem to think I'm being realistic when I tell them that I still play music and am thinking about going back to school to study music history/theory or the humanities. They compare me to their "dreamy" high-school kids who I'm assuming are expected to only be individuals inasfar as they don't fail to shoehorn themselves into some career before they graduate college.

The hamster wheels are everywhere, but if I've learned anything from the hamster my girlfriend used to have, running on the wheel 8 hours a day doesn't make the cage change into a better place.

Amongst my extended family and friends the only person I know who has been consistently happy with his career is a relative who taught himself ancient Chinese and researches ancient philosophical texts at a university. Everyone else's description of work entails either an outline of pure tedium and malaise or an overstressing and overanxious heart-attack waiting to happen. The latter is certainly not caused by mental strain as much as it's caused by an overwhelming b.s. factor (bureaucracy, etc..)

[yankeeyosh]

It's because our generation has been subjected to a more rigorous yet also more liberal education, in which we're paradoxically bombarded with opposite pressures to strive for excellence (a social pressure built up as meritocracy) and "pursue our dreams" as individuals. Yet, despite this me-generation propaganda, the bitter and greedy generations before us (who still have all the money and the best forms of capital) have shrunken the possibilities of individual pursuit and utterly destoyed the chances for a small business to survive. On top of that, the job market (especially in America) is oversaturated by foreigners who will work for half of what an American expects out of high-school (and I'm sure many of us have heard plenty about our parents' job histories - much more straight-forward and much more wiggle-room than we have, I think).

I think "paying dues" is a crock and that people use it as a desperate excuse to justify things like anxiety that causes them to not leave a crap job. I've met plenty of sad-sack lifers who've been paying their dues for decades and have never actually felt that they've achieved full respect from the workplace.

The 5-10 years experience requisites for what are essentially foot-in-the-door and low-pay jobs show that hiring managers are spoiled rotten by cowardly lifers everywhere. Yet we're also expected to have gone to college somehow. The question I have lately is, honestly, "what the f##k is the point of college anymore (at least liberal arts, which certainly requires the heaviest justification)?" The answer I have is that it's a big stinking product and everyone's buying. The arguments that college imparts reasoning skills, writing abilities, networking abilities, etc.. is 95% utter b.s.. I'm pretty sure most people who are good at that stuff went into college that way.

I hate how, in interviews, I've felt very vulnerable whenever I've mentioned individual pursuits (such as my degree and personal goals) with a positive outlook. It seems it's only good to be an individual if your individualism is abandoned or severely curbed in the interest of insincerely fellating some company's industry goals. The assholes I work for never seem to think I'm being realistic when I tell them that I still play music and am thinking about going back to school to study music history/theory or the humanities. They compare me to their "dreamy" high-school kids who I'm assuming are expected to only be individuals inasfar as they don't fail to shoehorn themselves into some career before they graduate college.

The hamster wheels are everywhere, but if I've learned anything from the hamster my girlfriend used to have, running on the wheel 8 hours a day doesn't make the cage change into a better place.

Amongst my extended family and friends the only person I know who has been consistently happy with his career is a relative who taught himself ancient Chinese and researches ancient philosophical texts at a university. Everyone else's description of work entails either an outline of pure tedium and malaise or an overstressing and overanxious heart-attack waiting to happen. The latter is certainly not caused by mental strain as much as it's caused by an overwhelming b.s. factor (bureaucracy, etc..)


I more or less agree. From day one, people our age have been on the "hamster wheel"...working our butts off in HS so we could get into a good college, working our butts off again in college so we could get into a good grad school or get a good job, and for those who take the grad school route, work our butts off even more so we can join the masses of those who didn't, and get a good job. Yet, when we enter the workforce, we often are either very disappointed since the job we get feels so anticlimatic and boring...especially considering the frenetic pace we spent our teenage and college years, or thanks to all that work, we find early success, but get burnt out. I think this is a major part of the QLC. Many of us have expectations based on what family, teachers, and peers say, yet in the end, they may not work out instantaneously. There are many who find happiness in the workforce, and are happy with what they are doing...whether it is a high-powered position that provides a challenge or something more modest but is enjoyable and leaves time for other pursuits. But this is not ubiquitous. And unfortunately, most companies don't care. There are those that do...and I saw the promised land in Dallas a few weeks ago when I visited my brother. But most just concern themselves with whether you can fit a pigeonholed-role as a cog in a corporate machine.

I guess if you are stuck in an environment that makes you unhappy, you should think about what will make you happy. Maybe you can tinker with freelancing in your spare time. It is essentially experience that doesn't require you to dress in a suit and try to impress two to ten people over the course o a few hours. Or take a course in a college. Or simply ask around. I guess I am trying to figure this out myself. I have to keep pressing, though...can't give up the ghost.

[caostotale]

I guess if you are stuck in an environment that makes you unhappy, you should think about what will make you happy. Maybe you can tinker with freelancing in your spare time. It is essentially experience that doesn't require you to dress in a suit and try to impress two to ten people over the course o a few hours. Or take a course in a college. Or simply ask around. I guess I am trying to figure this out myself. I have to keep pressing, though...can't give up the ghost.

This is probably the best solution, yet I still find the overall environment extremely hostile to this kind of stuff. It usually just ends up costing a lot of money. The transition from college to the workworld is certainly more akin to a crash landing these days, where all the sudden nobody gives a rat's ass about issues, books, learning, etc. (true, tons of people do, but it's all personal and kept under wraps) and the big topics of the day are replaced with utterly desperate bullshit like "what kind of coffee packs did the guy give us today?" or "why is such-and-such micromanaging?".

For some, I'm certain this transition is a welcome thing, since not everybody values the work independence and other vicissitudes of academic life. These are the types who start career-hunting as sophomores in college, usually looking at companies that have zilch to do with their majors but not caring, driven solely by an early need for job security, etc,,) I, on the other hand, wished that I could have segued from the last year of school to some work field that was more along the same lines as the work I did in school. When I asked the career people at my school about this, they really offered next to no help at all and referred me to job fairs packed with temp agencies and shit companies like Hertz Rent-a-Car and Target Stores. Without ever feeling like a pretentious intellectual, it must be understandable that, amidst writing senior theses and carting around piles of textbooks and research articles, it was tough to be convinced that being a sales manager for Enterprise was a meaningful continuance for me to pursue. Now, flash to 2 years later, I've been bouncing from temp assignment to temp assignment just trying to make my rent and bills go away. I'm told at job interviews that my educational background is not significant in any way to the positions I'm interested in (history/lit degree from a good university; I've mostly been looking at administrative/entry level jobs). Every temp position I've landed has involved blindingly-idiotic busywork and no chance for ascendency or god forbid, learning a new skill on the job. As days go by, I feel my only way is to turn back and re-examine opportunities from the past that I may have missed.

[Rob_Loblaw]

I was angry as hell about it this exact thing after I graduated. For a while my anger turned to mild depression, a massive fog or malaise seemed to follow me. I am a bright guy, I have many worthwhile hobbies, interests, a good education, etc... Yet, what was it all for? I was pushed into university by everyone because I was top of my class, not knowing what to take. So I took commerce and accounting. It was a guaranteed future but who really wants to be an accountant? Or a data entry clerk? Or a systems analyst? Or a tax attourney? More importantly I didn't have time to persue the things I really wanted to do. I was angry at everyone who pushed me into this and at the same time felt guilty. Guilty that if I left they would think I wasted thier money (I only paid for half my schooling).


While I had nothing against my coworkers or even the job itself, I came to a realisation. The week after tax season was done I quit. Without any pressure in secondary school except to go to university after I was free to do many things. I started businesses, I was taught several trades to the professional level by my family(I even challenged several trade tests and passed easily). I finished conservatory in piano. I was in a band. I got my lifeguarding certificate. I travelled the last few weeks of every summer overseas for years. I was always around friends.

I realised that I was so happy in high school. I have teetered between atheism and theism my whole life. All that matters now is that I am living as if there is no guarantee of something after. We are here against great odds and our time is very scarce. Why was I spending it doing something that I hated, and more importantly, that I knew wasn't contributing to any greater good?

I wasn't working for my kids. I wasn't helping poor people get thier finances in order or to help my parents pay for a lifelong goal of thiers. I felt pigeonholed into this life. I wasted so much time, time that I wouldn't trade for a trillion dollars. Ironically, I settled instead not for a fortune but a set of silly ideals everyone had about what I was supposed to do.

In the end there are no rules to life, to certain careers, to success. If I wanted out of the rat race all I need is drive. I have a goal, a plan burned into my mind so ingrained that there is no doubt I will attain it. Once I realised that we are truly free to do as we wish I felt like I did when I was
7; doing whatever I wanted, not afraid to embarass myself because who the hell cares what everyone else thinks.

I am in a radically different career right now and I took a massive paycut but in the end it will be worth it becuase I have that desire to achieve my goal. I want it so badly that sometimes I burst out laughing. Laughing at how silly I was before this. We really are just animals. Only it's our brains that holds us back just as it has taken us to the top of the food chain. The tiger has no doubt that he will get his prey, the Sooty has no doubt that he'll fly 18,000 miles this year for migration.

Yet for all out supposed superiority we are worried about what complete strangers will think. We worry about how good our neighbours are doing in terms of material goods. We worry about former peers running into us one day and having them achieve so much more than us (Again materially). Whenever we have an idea, or a passion for something we don't persue it. We don't beleive that it is not only possible but inevitable that we accomplish it. We instead talk to people who don't share the same passion and therefore don't understand our vision. They plant seeds of doubt in our minds and then we reinforce this ourselves.

If you don't believe me just look at every single great achievement in mankind. Alexander Graham Bell failed hundreds of times before he got the lightbulb. Henry Ford spent a fortune and put his reputation on the line because he knew that the type of engine he wanted was not only possible, but inevitable, despite what everyone said. In a span of 50 years we went from just walking to flying like the birds and then walking again-on the moon.

Why is it that whenever we aren't happy with our career we end up telling ourselves that there is no way out? That it is too hard? That big business or the glass ceiling can stop us. That it is too late to start over.

I'm sorry to get all Tony Robbins on you but really this is it. There are no other chances (Unless you are Hindu). If you are in debt make it your number one goal to get out. You don't need a new couch or a new car right now. If you aren't in debt you have few excuses if you aren't happy and unwilling to change.

To end this on a cheesy note and to provide cliffs for this whole mess here is a quote I've always thought was dead on:

Whether you believe you can or can't, you're right.

[Adam Strange]

Ugh, I always hate coming in late and having to go back to the OP when there’s a conversation brewing. But this is an interesting question.

Why do I pay my “dues?” I guess I haven’t figured a better idea yet. Outsourcing, hiring freezes, downsizing and the drying up of secure, tenured positions make me skeptical that there is a place for me if I just work hard and be reliable. Hell, after learning the whole get your degree and you’ll be fine and secure and able to pay off those loans premise was a myth, I’m skeptical of attempt to work hard for a barely visible, abstract goal. But I’m here this morning anyway because I don’t have any better ideas and because the job I have now isn’t intolerable and theoretically could lead to something better.

And besides that, the few people I know in my industry with jobs I desire did start out at the bottom.

Yes, I agree the olden days may be idealized. Workers had to picket and hold sit-downs for their rights. Still, the evidence has been repeated to a point of cliché that white collar, college-educated workers aren’t getting what they used to. Besides the fact that tuition is going up, lenders are getting more aggressive and we generally think of college as the same gateway we used to. (The same damned mailers with smiling kids in graduation regalia come around).