Impatient for him to pop the question

[Girlie girl]

I know I’m not alone but here it is. I just turned 28, boyfriend will be 26 in 2 months. Met in university, dated for 3 yrs before moving in together, lived together for almost 3 yrs before moving to other side of the country together and have now lived in this new location together for over a year. I am dying for him to please pop the question and make this official. I know he loves me. I love him so much and I know he’s the one and I am ready to say yes. All I need is for him to ask. And it’s driving me nuts. I know I can’t pressure him – what would be attractive about that conversation? I know that he knows I am waiting because everyone and their dog talks about it, hints about it, nudges him and says “you’re next!” when wedding talk comes up (Our best friends wedding is this weekend). His best friend winks at me sometimes and whispers “don’t worry – soon, it’ll be soon”.

But people have been saying that forever now. I figured it would happen within a year after we uprooted and moved away together. There is no part of me that wants to give him an ultimatum. But there is a part of me that questions why? Why is it taking him so long? Why isn’t he as excited to marry me as I am to marry him? Am I good enough to live with but not good enough to marry? I know I am still relatively young but in my little fuzzy life-plan, I assumed I would be married by now. We both want a house, but there’s no way I would buy one with him until after we’re married. We both want kids – again, no way until we’re married. I feel like my life is on hold and it frustrates me to no end. Just venting I guess. I need some positive support here to help me wait a bit longer..

[winneythepooh7]

Don't worry, it all sounds very positive from what you've written. Maybe he's just saving up for the ring? Trust me, usually a guy will pop the question when you are absolutely NOT expecting it. That's what happened to me and most of the women I know.

[foursquare]

Hello there. I'm in an almost identical situation. Have been dating my boyfriend for close to six years now, and have been living together for a while. I keep waiting for the question. Birthdays and holidays roll around and I try not to get my hopes up. I understand how it feels to feel your life is on hold (house, kids, etc.).

All that I can say is that you just can't compare yourself to others. Couples are all different, guys mature and feel ready at different ages, and girls sometimes feel the pressure to have a wedding when what they should be thinking about is a marriage. I've gone to many weddings in the last few years where I've heard "you're next," but I've also watched a few of those marriages fall apart.

You ultimately have to decide what is right for yourself: what the commitment of marriage means to you (does he consider himself committed without the paper, where as you'd like it formalized), how long are you willing to “wait” for some of the other things you want. I completely agree that an ultimatum is not the way to go, but at some point you have to decide what you want, both for as an individual and as a couple.
I apologize if this is not the positive support you are looking for, but I think you’ll be just fine.

[Girlie girl]

foursquare - thanks for the comments. It all helps to feel like I can talk about it a little (TG for this forum). I feel like I want to bring up the issue with him but at the same time I can't picture the conversation going well or ending up with him not feeling pressured (poor me, marry me please, boo hoo).

Have you discussed your feelings with your boyfriend? How did it go? I know I should not compare myself to any other couples. I know we have an even better relationship than the couple getting married this weekend but that still doesn't make me feel any less hopeless at times.

[Krishna]

I keep waiting for the question. Birthdays and holidays roll around and I try not to get my hopes up. I understand how it feels to feel your life is on hold (house, kids, etc.).

I'm the same way. I want it badly, and have been waiting for many moons. He knows it, too. I try not to feel letdown when our anniversaries or major holidays pass and nothing happens, but sometimes I just cant help it.:0

[wordsmith]

If you've been together this long, are committed to one another enough that you're living together, making major moves together, etc., and are happy as a couple, how much would it really matter? Would it make life immeasurably better, or would it pretty much be just the same? Would you feel more solid about the commitment, etc.? Just food for thought.

I know that you said you assumed you'd be married by now, but honestly, that doesn't have much to do with an individual relationship. Setting what's basically an arbitrary timeline and attaching expectations to it doesn't really have much to do with the reality of a given situation and the dynamics you have with a particular person, most of the time.

[spiritedaway]

Hmmmm, interesting responses. Here's my 2 cents:

I'd say that if you two have been dating that long and lived together, it's really not out of the question to see where your boyfriend stands on the marriage issue. Some people wants to get married. Some peopled don't. Some people want to have kids early. Some people want to have kids later (or not at all). Maybe your boyfriend doesn't ever want to get married, or maybe he doesn't see himself getting married until he's in the 30s. Who knows (except your boyfriend). The point is, it'll be a long wait for you if you two are in different places and you need to decide what you could compromise and what you can't. Is marriage really important to you? Do you not care if you don't ever get married, etc?

I don't suggest, in any way, shape or form that you give him an ultimatum, but have a discussion to see where he stands on things.

I know quite a few people in similar predicament. Some worked out, some didn't. One is struggling with this decision too; she wants kids and family before she is no longer at the child bearing age (she's in the 30s), but her boyfriend still hasn't proposed!

Personally, I don't think I would want to date a guy for 5-6 years and still not have him propose if I'm in it for the long term. Like most, I only wanted to get married once in my lifetime, but I also think that I'd know someone well enough to know if I want to spend the rest of my life with him within a few years. I'm a decisive person and know what I want most of the time so it probably doesn't take that long. Once two people make the decision to commit, I am a firm believer that you keep building it and working at the relationship/marriage.

To be honest, I'm quite saddened that the institution of marriage seemed to lessen in this day and age (not because of this thread, but general observations). I guess I'm still conservative about marriage, since I see it as a declaration of vows/commitment to each other. While I agree that not getting married isn't going to change the dynamics of the relationship, getting married shouldn't either either. This is a topic that most people see things differently (especially between guys/girls), but to each his/her own. Personally, I'm not so sure I can date a guy for years and not have it go anywhere because marriage is important to me, and I'd like to find someone who sees it the same way. (Then again, what do I know...I'm single...so maybe not a lot of people sees it my way :p )

[FishOutOfWater]

Instead of sitting around and waiting for your boyfriend to propose, why don't you go ahead and pop the question yourself? In the year 2008 I see no problem with a woman proposing to her boyfriend. Maybe I hang out with an unusually feminist crowd, but I think most of the men I know would love having that pressure taken off of them, while finding it pretty sexy in the process.

[Girlie girl]

haha, I have thought about asking him! But we actually have had the marriage talk in the past (sometimes serious, sometimes joking around) and I know that he (and I) are a bit old-fashioned in feeling like he should do the proposing and give me a ring. I know he does want to get married, his mom even tried to get him to propose to me maybe 3 years ago and volunteered to put up the $$ for my ring (which he could pay back). This story came out well after the holidays and of course he didn't take her up on it because he would not want to give me a ring purchased by his mom (and was not even close to being ready I'm sure).

Marriage is really important to me. I feel like it symbolizes a solid long term (death do us part if you will) commitment and I definitely want that in my life. I would/could not really share my life completely (buy a house, start a family) unless I knew that my partner was in it for the long term and, in my opinion, there is no better way to show that than through marriage. My parents have been married for 40 years, my sisters for 12 and 14 years each. They’ve all set this example for me and I see how happy they are and want to know the same kind of happiness. I guess I’m starting to feel too old to still just have a boyfriend as we have grown together so much, our relationship has progressed to the point where we have been living together for some time. And now I am just waiting for the next step.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. It really helps to hear other people’s thoughts on this.

[KCboy]

I’m starting to feel too old to still just have a boyfriend

hahaha. tell that to my 37 year old girlfriend.

I know too many divorced people that are in their 30's, 40's and above to believe this "lifetime commitment, til death do us part" stuff. More like "til we both hire lawyers do we part".

what's the statistic up to these days? 75% of marriages end in divorce?

I wonder how many marriages the average person has in his/her lifetime. 2? 2 1/2?

[wordsmith]

Given that I spent a good chunk of my twenties single, having a boyfriend in my early thirties seems to make sense.

I'm definitely pro-marriage (my own parents have been together 36 years), but the truth is, marriage does NOT equal lifetime commitment, for many. The commitment is only as strong as the will of the two people in the relationship to make it work. And that's true of any relationship, marriage or not.

[FunInTheSun]

Umm... I hope I do not offend anyone but here is my 2 cents. Ok, two of the posters on here said that they were living with their bfs for a couple years, my friend has been living with her bf for 5 years and my bf's sister has been living with hers for 4 years, and still no proposals. I do not consider myself old fashioned but I think the main reason why these guys have not proposed is due to the living together or "shacking" up as my grams would say. I REFUSE to live with a guy until I am atleast engaged. I just feel that if you are already living together and already playing "wifey" then where is the motivation for the guy to marry you? I mean really, think about it. It's kind of like why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free. I also think that you need to state what it is that you want from the beginning. I am 24 now and not planning to get married for about 5 years but I told my bf from day one that I am not going to live with him nor have a baby until we are at least engaged and he agreed. Also, if someone hasn't proposed after a few years, I would have to say you need to cut your losses short and move on. If you really want to get married, you need to see that as a goal and you have to be strategic about it, just like anything else in life.

Please don't bite my head off but I do think that our parents were on to something during the days when "shacking up" was a sin. I see way too many women living with dudes for 2, 4, 5 years and wondering "why won't he marry me?"

[gemma-dahl]

I won't enter a serious relationship until we discuss the big stuff, namely marriage and kids. I do feel bad for people who don't know where their partners stand on these issues - I guess they are tough to talk about for some. (However, I am glad times have changed; I am not personally religious, and so the concept of sin is somewhat lost on me, or not really relevant to me, I guess.)

OP, have you actually asked your BF where he stands on this stuff?

[wordsmith]

Personally, I don't think you can say, "I hope I don't offend anybody here," and then follow it up with things like "playing wifey," and "getting the milk for free," FunInThe Sun. Just my two cents.

Interesting that it's "playing wife," not "playing husband," and women are never the ones described as "getting the milk for free."

[Krishna]

Personally, I don't think you can say, "I hope I don't offend anybody here," and then follow it up with things like "playing wifey," and "getting the milk for free," FunInThe Sun. Just my two cents.

Interesting that it's "playing wife," not "playing husband," and women are never the ones described as "getting the milk for free."

Agreed. Such a stupid thing that the women get flack for "shacking up and playing wifey" and the guys dont.

It was a legitimate concern of mine that a proposal would never come if we moved in together. We talked about it, and I think he understands that if it doesnt happen soon (like within the span of our year long lease), I'll probably move back out, because I can't handle this being a long-term solution. This is a short term, defined period, trial run. This is not a permanent solution to our living situation. I made that abundantly clear.

[Bocheezu]

Interesting that it's "playing wife," not "playing husband," and women are never the ones described as "getting the milk for free."

Because a man won't leave a relationship just because the woman won't marry him. We're perfectly happy to keep on living with them unmarried. Women are the only ones that will leave a perfectly stable, solid relationship just because the guy won't marry her. Look at this thread -- "Also, if someone hasn't proposed after a few years, I would have to say you need to cut your losses short and move on."

What? Why?

[FunInTheSun]

Because a man won't leave a relationship just because the woman won't marry him. We're perfectly happy to keep on living with them unmarried. Women are the only ones that will leave a perfectly stable, solid relationship just because the guy won't marry her. Look at this thread -- "Also, if someone hasn't proposed after a few years, I would have to say you need to cut your losses short and move on."

What? Why?

Exactly. I am not saying that it is right that women get labeled negatively but it is still viewed that way by society and men. And the quote above proved my point why. And I say to move on because if you are looking to get married, it is not going to happen if you stay with a guy(s) who will not marry you. Common sense.

[LaFille]

Because a man won't leave a relationship just because the woman won't marry him.

Oh yes, absolutely a man would. Not all men, granted, but a marriage-oriented man would (just as not all women would end things, only one who is looking to get married.)

If marriage is a goal that you are working toward, and your partner is not, then you either figure it our with them somehow or end it. It doesn't matter whether you are a man or a woman.

[Samwell]

It was a legitimate concern of mine that a proposal would never come if we moved in together. We talked about it, and I think he understands that if it doesnt happen soon (like within the span of our year long lease), I'll probably move back out, because I can't handle this being a long-term solution. This is a short term, defined period, trial run. This is not a permanent solution to our living situation. I made that abundantly clear.

<GASP>

Frank and open communication? Isn't that cheating?

[Girlie girl]

I understand and agree with alot of points that have been made. Trust me, I have considered the "getting the milk for free" scenario and was advised by several people not to live with him unless he proposes. I was also advised by other people not to move away with him unless he proposes. But we all have to make our own choices and in our situation, what we've done to date is what has worked for us. I didn't feel the need to give him those ultimatums "will not live with you unless you show me a ring" or "nope, sorry, won't move away with you unless..yadda yadda". It just wasn't right for me personally. Our life together thus far has been great and I've had some amazing experiences along the way. I know alot of people who's significant others took up to 10 or 12 years before they proposed (my sister 10 years but they started in high school) so I'm not completely hopeless, I'm just a bit impatient to get on to the next step. I know he's got no tangible 'incentive' to marry me now as we are already 'playing house' but I would hope that his love for me would be incentive enough for him to propose to spend the rest of our lives together. Oh - he won't be able to buy a house without me either (I have a bit more re$ources and no debt) and that I will not do unless we're married, so maybe I've got that on him? But I really hate to look at things that way. I must be a romantic - I want him to marry me for love... and breaking up is not an option for me because I love him.

[Bocheezu]

I think by-and-large women completely overestimate how much a guy cares about the actual act of getting married. Men care about the relationship obviously, but probably not so much the event. The grooms are always just along for the ride anyway. Obviously, it's a big deal to a religious or old-fashioned values kinda guy to be married, but to a guy that isn't...who cares?

If the woman says to the guy "I want us to be married" (not in an ultimatum "I'm leaving if we don't get married" kind of way, either), then the guy should obviously go through with it for her. He'd have to be an asshole not to. But if the woman never says anything, I think a guy is more likely to just let sleeping dogs lie and not worry about it.

[KCboy]

I think by-and-large women completely overestimate how much a guy cares about the actual act of getting married. Men care about the relationship obviously, but probably not so much the event. The grooms are always just along for the ride anyway. Obviously, it's a big deal to a religious or old-fashioned values kinda guy to be married, but to a guy that isn't...who cares?

If the woman says to the guy "I want us to be married" (not in an ultimatum "I'm leaving if we don't get married" kind of way, either), then the guy should obviously go through with it for her. He'd have to be an asshole not to. But if the woman never says anything, I think a guy is more likely to just let sleeping dogs lie and not worry about it.

true. I've always thought the point was to find a person worth spending life with. Seems kinda backwards to find one, then scrap the whole thing because he slacks when it comes to making it legal.


also, IMO, men face the stigma of giving up a lot if the relationship does not work. A friend of mine (coming off his 2nd divorce) once said, "Next time I fall in love, I'm just gonna buy the b!tch a house."


Many women want security, both emotionally and financially. I think most men have no problem giving both, but the emotional support ends when the marriage does, the financial does not.

[KCboy]

Isn't the term "getting the milk for free" a little out-dated? Women have been fighting for a long time for equality, yet still use phrases that compare themselves to livestock.

[ebruening]

If the woman says to the guy "I want us to be married" (not in an ultimatum "I'm leaving if we don't get married" kind of way, either), then the guy should obviously go through with it for her. He'd have to be an asshole not to. But if the woman never says anything, I think a guy is more likely to just let sleeping dogs lie and not worry about it.

This is what my now-fiance thought about marriage. After we had been dating a while, I told him that I knew I could commit to him, and that marriage was something that I wanted with him. We talked about it, and he said that he hadn't really thought seriously about marriage until I mentioned it. Additionally, he was very honest when he said that marriage wouldn't change his level of emotional commitment to me, because he had already decided to commit to me for life long before we decided to marry. However, he agreed on marriage because he knew it was important to me, and if that was what I wanted with him, he wanted to make me happy. Thus, we agreed to get married. There was neither a proposal, nor any engagement ring, but that sort of approach fits well with our relationship. Just because it works in our relationship doesn't mean that it works in everyone's, though. You'll have to find what works best for you and your boyfriend.

[Bocheezu]

We both want a house, but there’s no way I would buy one with him until after we’re married. We both want kids – again, no way until we’re married.

Why? If you're religious, sure, if you're not, who cares if you're married or not?

[KCboy]

Why? If you're religious, sure, if you're not, who cares if you're married or not?

because once you're married, it's permanent :rolleyes:

[Girlie girl]

Exactly. If he's ready and wants me to commit to buying a house together or raising children together, he should have no problem committing to our relationship before all those things and I want that security before committing to those things as well.

I know, I know, he can leave me just as easily if we're married in these days of divorce but I don't think anyone wanting to get married is planning on divorce or they wouldn't even try. That's like not even dating because, of course, you'll break up.

[KCboy]

If he's ready and wants me to commit to buying a house together or raising children together, he should have no problem committing to our relationship before all those things

wouldn't buying a house together and starting a family qualify as 'committing'?


IMO, those seem way more permanent than marriage.

[ScottyTheBody]

Firstly, stop viewing marriage as a GOAL. It's not something you work hard at and then relax as soon as the goal is achieved. Marriage changes nothing in a relationship except maybe the bills. Marriage is a very VERY important decision and if it takes a little while for the guy to absolutely sure that he wants to commit the REST of his life with you then give him that time.

Now to the OP, it sounds like he wants to marry you but for whatever reason, be it financial or personal he's delaying a little bit. Just be patient and from what I've little I've read from your post, I get the feeling he will propose. It sounds like he justs wants to be absolutely, without influence from others, sure that he wants to marry you (and from the sounds of it, he's probably just saving up for a ring).

[KCboy]

Interesting I ran across this today:

"I think that you need to ask yourself how truly interested you are in being married. Is that more important to you than having a friendship with this man? If someone with whom you got along 80 percent as well as you do with this guy came along, would you marry him for the sake of being married?

...

If connecting intellectually is really important to you — and it sounds as if it is — consider how many other men out there fit the bill. Maybe what you’re getting with this man is worth more to you than what you’re giving up.




http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/couplesandmarriage/articlerb.aspx?cp-documentid=8361781&GT1=32001

[wordsmith]

Because a man won't leave a relationship just because the woman won't marry him. We're perfectly happy to keep on living with them unmarried.

Guess I must be a dude, then.

My point is, if a woman who is living with a guy is "playing house," then so is the guy who is living with the woman. If the guy is getting sex "no strings," i.e. without committing to a marriage (which, by the way, is no different whether you're living with somebody or not, so is the woman - why is the whole "buy the cow" thing directed at women? Women are "getting it for free" too, in these scenarios, are they (hypothetically, anyhow; speaking for myself, the entire cow/milk cliche is antiquated and tired). But just to make the proverbial point.


I think the entire root of the whole "I MUST be married" mindset for many people is that they consider marriage to be a badge of commitment. It's not. It MIGHT be, for some, and certainly, that's the idea behind it (and, some would say, the ideal), but realistically, for many, it's not. There are many unmarried couples far more committed to one another than many married couples. Commitment can exist with or without the confines of marriage, and being married is no guarantee somebody's committed to you, unfortunately.

[wordsmith]

Agreed. Such a stupid thing that the women get flack for "shacking up and playing wifey" and the guys dont.

Interestingly, I've gotten grief from absolutely nobody since "shacking up." Not my family (small town, white picket fence Midwesterners, no less), not his family (patriarch/matriarch are old school Catholics, no less), not my church (lesbian pastor, go fig), not people I work with, not friends, nobody. As far as I know, neither has my boyfriend, although he at one point thought that more conservative factions at his workplace might have disapproved, but nothing's come of that. Also, hey, not their business.

It's kind of funny to me that this is actually still a concern for some, simply because it's been such a nonissue for me, and because it seems both from a bygone era and rude to weigh in on ther personal business of others' relationships.

I didn't move in thinking I'd be married in x amount of time. I moved in primarily because we both wanted to live together and incidentally because it made financial sense to do so. That's all. No ticking timeline regarding rings or save the date cards.

[wordsmith]

I think by-and-large women completely overestimate how much a guy cares about the actual act of getting married. Men care about the relationship obviously, but probably not so much the event. The grooms are always just along for the ride anyway. Obviously, it's a big deal to a religious or old-fashioned values kinda guy to be married, but to a guy that isn't...who cares?


A marriage isn't an event, though. That's just a wedding. You're talking about two different things; having a wedding ceremony, and actually being married. If the guy is just "along for the ride" in the marriage, well, that's a f*cked up marriage. It would be a f*cked up unmarried relationship, too, if one party were just along for the ride, for that matter.

[bleepbloop]

Words I actually agree with most of what you say but at the same time I find myself in a situation much like the OP, where I've been with the same guy for 5 years and every now and then I just get a little impatient.

This is going to sound so silly, but I'm an huge Judge Judy fan and I think it's very interesting that she always makes such a huge deal about being married before you make a huge purchase with someone. I think in a lot of ways my boyfriend and I are in a "marriage" because we're committed to one another in that way, and we are very much each other's family.

That being said, I wouldn't feel comfortable purchasing a home with him or, like the OP said, having a child with him without being married because if --G-D forbid-- something happens to the relationship, legally it would be a mess for an unmarried couple. I also like all the traditions and symbolism tied to a wedding; it really is just a simple ceremony to celebrate and make "official" the combination of two peoples lives.

[winneythepooh7]

[QUOTE=bleepbloop]

That being said, I wouldn't feel comfortable purchasing a home with him or, like the OP said, having a child with him without being married because if --G-D forbid-- something happens to the relationship, legally it would be a mess for an unmarried couple. QUOTE]

Legally, it would STILL be a mess for a married couple, as well.

[wordsmith]

[QUOTE=bleepbloop]

That being said, I wouldn't feel comfortable purchasing a home with him or, like the OP said, having a child with him without being married because if --G-D forbid-- something happens to the relationship, legally it would be a mess for an unmarried couple. QUOTE]

Legally, it would STILL be a mess for a married couple, as well.

Exactly. And as far as being unmarried goes, actually, owning property together if not legally bound has probably more legal complications than having a kid.

For what it's worth, I, too, like the symbolism and tradition of marriage ceremonies. I'm not anti marriage in any way. I'm just not overly fond of attaching a be-all, end-all-ness to it.

[Krishna]

<GASP>

Frank and open communication? Isn't that cheating?

lol. Definately. :rolleyes:

[Krishna]

Interestingly, I've gotten grief from absolutely nobody since "shacking up." Not my family (small town, white picket fence Midwesterners, no less), not his family (patriarch/matriarch are old school Catholics, no less), not my church (lesbian pastor, go fig), not people I work with, not friends, nobody. As far as I know, neither has my boyfriend, although he at one point thought that more conservative factions at his workplace might have disapproved, but nothing's come of that. Also, hey, not their business.

I'm definately taking flack from my parents, because they think I'm making a huge mistake, they "didn't raise me this way", etc, etc. Everyone else is taking it in stride, including my SO's parents.

[wordsmith]

My dad is the one who is fairly socially traditional, bordering on conservative, even though he's politically left-leaning in most regards. So I thought he might have some sort of misguided personal disappointment.

But, as he pointed out, the thing that makes him happy is seeing me happy, and my mom agrees. So, they have no issue with it. They've seen me unhappy, and it breaks their hearts.

[Krishna]

My dad is the one who is fairly socially traditional, bordering on conservative, even though he's politically left-leaning in most regards. So I thought he might have some sort of misguided personal disappointment.

But, as he pointed out, the thing that makes him happy is seeing me happy, and my mom agrees. So, they have no issue with it. They've seen me unhappy, and it breaks their hearts.

See, mine said they'd love me no matter what, but that they felt I was making a huge mistake. Even after rattling off all the reasons why we were doing this, they still maintain that it is the "easy" way out, yadda, yadda, yadda.

[gemma-dahl]

As someone who has watched her parents' marriage fall apart, countless friends' parents' marriages (and, friends' marriages :eek: ) fall apart - AND as someone who was dumped by a man partially because she didn't want to get married in her very early 20s - this is a veeeeery interesting thread to me.

I think some people (gender is irrelevant) put too much emphasis on the "marriage" as opposed to the relationship, while others are applying a cliched, very media-driven stereotype of women to ALL women. Probably why folks argue over this stuff so much.

[Bocheezu]

There's a reason why there's a "Bridezillas" show and no "Groomzillas" show.

[wordsmith]

AND as someone who was dumped by a man partially because she didn't want to get married in her very early 20s - this is a veeeeery interesting thread to me.


Seriously...when I was 25, I had a boyfriend who was 22. A few months into dating casually, we were having one of those wandering conversations, and among the things that came up were, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" He said, (and I reiterate, this is a 22-year old male, and not a particularly mature one, at that), "I don't know, probably married and with a couple of kids." Which, obviously, he would have needed to get started on right away, to have that kind of setup within five years. *cringe* I was like, "Gulp...I'm ONLY 25!"

[Krishna]

I think some people (gender is irrelevant) put too much emphasis on the "marriage" as opposed to the relationship, while others are applying a cliched, very media-driven stereotype of women to ALL women. Probably why folks argue over this stuff so much.

This leads me to clarify my stand on marriage: I have a very strong relationship, and am not looking to be married just to be married, and I don't view it as a solidifier to a relationship, or a relationship fix. I view that as the end result of a committed, strong relationship.

[wordsmith]

Out of curiosity, Krishna, do you think that a couple could have a strong, committed relationship without a marriage?

[Krishna]

Out of curiosity, Krishna, do you think that a couple could have a strong, committed relationship without a marriage?

Yes, I believe that many people have strong, committed relationships without a marriage. I know several people who are happy like this, and I'm glad they've found what works for them. Having said that, I also know myself well enough to know that I'm not one of those people who would be happy in a long-term cohabitation setting without being married, and therefore can't see "Mr Right" ever being a person who didn't want to get married eventually.

[ebruening]

I'm definately taking flack from my parents, because they think I'm making a huge mistake, they "didn't raise me this way", etc, etc.

I also heard that line - along with "taking the easy way out" - verbatim from my parents when I decided to move in with my now-fiance. At the time, we weren't planning to marry, and my parents were concerned about him "sampling" too much without having to "make the purchase," as they put it. I know it isn't always fun to hear that you're "disappointing" your parents, but just remember: they decide whether or not they are happy.

[twentyfive]

also, IMO, men face the stigma of giving up a lot if the relationship does not work. A friend of mine (coming off his 2nd divorce) once said, "Next time I fall in love, I'm just gonna buy the b!tch a house."


Many women want security, both emotionally and financially. I think most men have no problem giving both, but the emotional support ends when the marriage does, the financial does not.

This is what a good solid pre-nup is for. And all the relationships I've been in, they've known that if we do wind up getting married down the road, I would have a pre-nup.

[twentyfive]

wouldn't buying a house together and starting a family qualify as 'committing'?

IMO, those seem way more permanent than marriage.

Very true. I see marriage as a way to bind a couple together legally and financially. Benefits & taxes is all it helps out.

[KCboy]

Firstly, stop viewing marriage as a GOAL. It's not something you work hard at and then relax as soon as the goal is achieved.

totally agree, and I'll add that many people who have never been married do not realize how much work it is.

[KCboy]

I don't think anyone wanting to get married is planning on divorce or they wouldn't even try.

This is what a good solid pre-nup is for.

I don’t think a pre-nup fits Girlie girl’s idea of marriage, because that would be like planning on getting a divorce.

Out of curiosity, Girlie girl, would you still want to marry this guy if he would only do so with a pre-nup?

[vivo]

I also heard that line - along with "taking the easy way out" - verbatim from my parents when I decided to move in with my now-fiance. At the time, we weren't planning to marry, and my parents were concerned about him "sampling" too much without having to "make the purchase," as they put it. I know it isn't always fun to hear that you're "disappointing" your parents, but just remember: they decide whether or not they are happy.

he can still have sex w/you without living with you. or sampling means living with?

[mlle]

I don’t think a pre-nup fits Girlie girl’s idea of marriage, because that would be like planning on getting a divorce.

Out of curiosity, Girlie girl, would you still want to marry this guy if he would only do so with a pre-nup?

Speaking for myself (and I know you didn't ask me), I wouldn't want to marry a guy who wanted me to sign a pre-nup, not bc it would mean that we were planning for divorce, but bc it would mean that I wouldn't be able to take him to the cleaners if/when the marriage dissolved :evil:

But back to the original question of the OP, people have been arguing back and forth about their views on marriage vs living together and everything else, but it's not about their views, it's about what YOU (girly girl) want. You want to get married, and I don't think you should be passive about waiting for your bf to pop the question if it's been so many years and you've apparently been waiting for a very long time. In an ideal world, if you felt this person was your lifetime partner after so many years then you'd feel comfortable enough to directly tell him how you felt and where you stand without worrying about sounding desperate (i.e. "marry me, boo-hoo please marry me.") or sounding like you're giving ultimatums, or feeling like it's not romantic or whatever.

It seems like some people have been telling the OP that how she feels isn't valid bc "it's not about marriage, it's about the commitment/it's about how much you love each other," and all that stuff. If you feel that way then fine, but the OP obviously doesn't feel that way and as such I personally think it would be a mistake to wait another 10 yrs or however long it's been. You could even argue that if girly girl's bf has made it clear that he's "old fashioned" and wants to be the one to pop the question, and is continuing to draw this out for so many years, then he's taking advantage of the situation.

I don't think anyone has brought this up, but I can't help thinking that the fact that he's a little younger has something to do with this. The 1 1/2 or 2 yrs difference between you isn't significant, but nevertheless, a 26-year-old guy might not be as ready to "settle down" as a 28- or 30-year-old guy.

[ScottyTheBody]

I also heard that line - along with "taking the easy way out" - verbatim from my parents when I decided to move in with my now-fiance. At the time, we weren't planning to marry, and my parents were concerned about him "sampling" too much without having to "make the purchase," as they put it. I know it isn't always fun to hear that you're "disappointing" your parents, but just remember: they decide whether or not they are happy.

Your parents make you sound like a product to be bought by a man.

[wordsmith]

To be crass, if somebody wants to take you for a "test run," (or, for that matter, if you want to take somebody for a test run), that can be done WITHOUT moving in together. But I guess to some parents, shacking up is flaunting it, rather than doing the right thing and hiding it. :rolleyes:

[winneythepooh7]

Excellent point.

[Bocheezu]

To be crass, if somebody wants to take you for a "test run," (or, for that matter, if you want to take somebody for a test run), that can be done WITHOUT moving in together. But I guess to some parents, shacking up is flaunting it, rather than doing the right thing and hiding it. :rolleyes:

A lot of the old-school parents can be incredibly naive when it comes to this. My cousin and his future wife moved into a two-bedroom apartment, and her mother actually thought she was sleeping in the other bedroom.

[wordsmith]

I have to think it's more denial than naivete...kind of "la la la - if I can't see it it's not happening." If your kid and his or her SO maintain separate residences, you can keep feeding yourself the (likely) myth that they're vestal virgins.

[winneythepooh7]

I have to think it's more denial than naivete...kind of "la la la - if I can't see it it's not happening." If your kid and his or her SO maintain separate residences, you can keep feeding yourself the (likely) myth that they're vestal virgins.


LOL. :p

[gemma-dahl]

Speaking for myself (and I know you didn't ask me), I wouldn't want to marry a guy who wanted me to sign a pre-nup, not bc it would mean that we were planning for divorce, but bc it would mean that I wouldn't be able to take him to the cleaners if/when the marriage dissolved :evil:

But back to the original question of the OP, people have been arguing back and forth about their views on marriage vs living together and everything else, but it's not about their views, it's about what YOU (girly girl) want. You want to get married, and I don't think you should be passive about waiting for your bf to pop the question if it's been so many years and you've apparently been waiting for a very long time. In an ideal world, if you felt this person was your lifetime partner after so many years then you'd feel comfortable enough to directly tell him how you felt and where you stand without worrying about sounding desperate (i.e. "marry me, boo-hoo please marry me.") or sounding like you're giving ultimatums, or feeling like it's not romantic or whatever.

It seems like some people have been telling the OP that how she feels isn't valid bc "it's not about marriage, it's about the commitment/it's about how much you love each other," and all that stuff. If you feel that way then fine, but the OP obviously doesn't feel that way and as such I personally think it would be a mistake to wait another 10 yrs or however long it's been.


I don't believe the other posters have been invalidating feelings, just presenting options, which the OP is free to read, to consider, or to discard as completely bunk. I know that my posts and wordsmith's posts have also revealed that no, not all women require marriage. Lots of opinions on here, and what-ifs - this kind of discourse is just inherent to forums and pretty much inevitable.

I think also that if every woman (and man) has the right to leave because marriage is not in the cards, then everyone who wants a pre-nup has the right to abandon the idea of marriage if the pre-nup is not in the cards. I personally can't see an incentive to get married if I'm gonna be "taken to the cleaners" afterward, and I would def. require advanced notice about the reasons behind the lack of pre-nup.

[LowCarbLife]

truth be known why would he want to pop the question? You are living with him and probably helping support you both. You've been willing to travel across country with him and uproot your life and dreams to live with him. You by grocieries together, plan trips together, hang out with friends together, and share the bed with each other. He is probably just thinking it is a piece of paper and it won't make any difference.

This is the same scenerio as to why the book Why Men Date Bitches and Why Men Marry Bitches was written. Gooooo find it and read it girlfriend!

You are going to need to put a timeline on this thing if the proposal is what you want and need right now. Tell him you will pack up & move out in X amount of months. You will then know if he is truly ready or not.

GOOD LUCK HONEY! You can do it...and take what you want seriously.

[ScottyTheBody]

truth be known why would he want to pop the question? You are living with him and probably helping support you both. You've been willing to travel across country with him and uproot your life and dreams to live with him. You by grocieries together, plan trips together, hang out with friends together, and share the bed with each other. He is probably just thinking it is a piece of paper and it won't make any difference.

This is the same scenerio as to why the book Why Men Date Bitches and Why Men Marry Bitches was written. Gooooo find it and read it girlfriend!

You are going to need to put a timeline on this thing if the proposal is what you want and need right now. Tell him you will pack up & move out in X amount of months. You will then know if he is truly ready or not.

GOOD LUCK HONEY! You can do it...and take what you want seriously.


Nothing screams I love you more than an ultimatum. Forcing the man to propose, how romantic.

Why Men Date Bitches and why Men Marry Bitches? Oh please.

Men have more reasons to propose than the ones you listed. To some men it is much more than a little piece of paper and the decision to marry is a HUGE decision that takes time to make.

[Krishna]

Nothing screams I love you more than an ultimatum. Forcing the man to propose, how romantic.

Why Men Date Bitches and why Men Marry Bitches? Oh please.

Men have more reasons to propose than the ones you listed. To some men it is much more than a little piece of paper and the decision to marry is a HUGE decision that takes time to make.

How long are women who want to get married supposed to wait around for the guy to decide he wants to as well? Is there a time frame? 2 years? 4 years? Why is it unreasonable for a woman to say "I really really love you, and I'd love for you to be the one I spend the rest of my life with, but I want to be married by xyz date, so unless that's what you want, I'm going to have to move on."

[Bocheezu]

Nothing screams I love you more than an ultimatum. Forcing the man to propose, how romantic.

Why Men Date Bitches and why Men Marry Bitches? Oh please.

Men have more reasons to propose than the ones you listed. To some men it is much more than a little piece of paper and the decision to marry is a HUGE decision that takes time to make.

I think we've been undervaluing the whole female biological clock aspect of things. Women who want kids are going to be naturally impatient when it comes to marriage.

[wordsmith]

How long are women who want to get married supposed to wait around for the guy to decide he wants to as well? Is there a time frame? 2 years? 4 years? Why is it unreasonable for a woman to say "I really really love you, and I'd love for you to be the one I spend the rest of my life with, but I want to be married by xyz date, so unless that's what you want, I'm going to have to move on."

There isn't any timeframe you should or shouldn't wait beyond, IMO. I think you really have to go with the gut on what's behind the failure to get the marriage ball rolling...and examine how you feel about those reasons, and go from there. A lot of it's just intuitive.

For instance, there are important questions (hypotheticals not necessarily directed toward Krishna specifically), like the following:

-Does the guy know how important it is to you to get married? If so, is it as important to him? An incompatibility here is a hard thing to work through.

-Does the guy know that it's important to you that it occur within a specific time range (i.e. childbearing years of your preference, etc.)? Again, is this compatible with what he wants?

-Are the reasons that marriage may be delayed until later practical in nature (wait until we're more financially stable, wait until I'm done with school, wait until we're in a position to buy a home, wait until our credit is better, etc.), or emotional (I don't want to be involved in something so permanent, I'm too young to get married? I'm not sure marriage is for me/you're the one for me, so I need to think about it more," etc.)?

For me, I would say the time to move on would be when it's become apparent that we're not on the same page and aren't likely to be.

[winneythepooh7]

I also think there's a huge difference between giving a guy an ultimatum vs. having a discussion about "this may not be it for either one of us so maybe it's time for BOTH of us to move on".


I don't see anything wrong with that scenario, and don't feel a female should get shit for feeling this way at a certain point.

[wordsmith]

I think we've been undervaluing the whole female biological clock aspect of things. Women who want kids are going to be naturally impatient when it comes to marriage.

Eh. We females actually have a pretty wide range of childbearing years (on average, anyway; there will always be those outside the norms - my SIL had trouble conceiving in her twenties).

I think the biological clock actually gets OVERstated in some cases, and often used as a pressure tactic even when people AREN'T nuts to have kids. It's something that's hard to argue with, so it gets invoked a lot when what people really want is a commitment, moreso than a crack at childbearing, when you get down to it. After all, you don't really need to be married to have a child, if you're really that extremely desirous of having one.

[winneythepooh7]

Eh. We females actually have a pretty wide range of childbearing years (on average, anyway; there will always be those outside the norms - my SIL had trouble conceiving in her twenties).

I think the biological clock actually gets OVERstated in some cases, and often used as a pressure tactic even when people AREN'T nuts to have kids. It's something that's hard to argue with, so it gets invoked a lot when what people really want is a commitment, moreso than a crack at childbearing, when you get down to it. After all, you don't really need to be married to have a child, if you're really that extremely desirous of having one.


I agree. Also for many, unfortunately, there is no guarantee that bringing a new child into the world is going to be an easy thing that will happen right away once marriage occurs. Many people don't find this out anyways until AFTER they are married.

[gemma-dahl]

truth be known why would he want to pop the question? You are living with him and probably helping support you both. You've been willing to travel across country with him and uproot your life and dreams to live with him. You by grocieries together, plan trips together, hang out with friends together, and share the bed with each other. He is probably just thinking it is a piece of paper and it won't make any difference.

This is the same scenerio as to why the book Why Men Date Bitches and Why Men Marry Bitches was written. Gooooo find it and read it girlfriend!

That's BS. The books' main topic, as I understand it, is actually "men like women who are independent, decisive, and motivated." It IS actually possible to live with someone, go on vacation with someone, help support your family of two, and STILL be an independent, decisive person. Who knew? :eek: The book is NOT about being difficult for the sake of being difficult. Were I a man, I wouldn't find a woman who vetoed all of my vacation ideas, who expected me to buy all of the groceries, and who never allowed me to meet or talk to her friends to be marriage material. That's just insanity!

Cripes, several years ago, when I was a complete doormat, always "Yes dear" this and that, I was relentlessly hounded to be married by the dumbshit man I was dating. So the books are just that, books, espousing a theory that has some basis in reality.

[Krishna]

There isn't any timeframe you should or shouldn't wait beyond, IMO. I think you really have to go with the gut on what's behind the failure to get the marriage ball rolling...and examine how you feel about those reasons, and go from there. A lot of it's just intuitive.

See, that's exactly my point. It's completely valid for a woman to spell out what she wants and when she wants it by. Honestly...if you're ready to get married and he isnt (or vice versa), I would think it would be better to inform the other party than to just cover it up and be miserable. ScottyTheBody said it was unromantic, etc, etc, but Scotty...what's worse is staying in a relationship where one or both of you are unhappy, imo.

[ScottyTheBody]

How long are women who want to get married supposed to wait around for the guy to decide he wants to as well? Is there a time frame? 2 years? 4 years? Why is it unreasonable for a woman to say "I really really love you, and I'd love for you to be the one I spend the rest of my life with, but I want to be married by xyz date, so unless that's what you want, I'm going to have to move on."

There is NO timeline or time frame when it comes to the decision to get married. Some people decide and know within minutes, others months and even others many years. I suppose there's nothing wrong with wanting to get married and even ending a relationship because you want to get married but there's just something that seems really weird about putting an ultimatum (like if he's only really getting married because "his time is up", it just seems doomed for failure). I'm not really sure if that makes any sense.

[ScottyTheBody]

Scotty...what's worse is staying in a relationship where one or both of you are unhappy, imo.

If you're unhappy in a relationship then you should leave it AND the very LAST thing that should be on your mind for the relationship is marriage. Of course it's unhealthy to stay in a relationship where one or both of the people involved are unhappy.

[Krishna]

There is NO timeline or time frame when it comes to the decision to get married. Some people decide and know within minutes, others months and even others many years. I suppose there's nothing wrong with wanting to get married and even ending a relationship because you want to get married but there's just something that seems really weird about putting an ultimatum (like if he's only really getting married because "his time is up", it just seems doomed for failure). I'm not really sure if that makes any sense.

I don't see it as forcing him to get married, I see it as asking him to make a decision. He is under no obligation to propose at all. He needs to be prepared for the girl to walk away then, if she's looking for something more. Vice versa, too. I mean, if a guy proposed and the girl said no, I'd see no problem with him walking away if he was looking for something more.

[ScottyTheBody]

I don't see it as forcing him to get married, I see it as asking him to make a decision. He is under no obligation to propose at all. He needs to be prepared for the girl to walk away then, if she's looking for something more. Vice versa, too. I mean, if a guy proposed and the girl said no, I'd see no problem with him walking away if he was looking for something more.

I just see a difference between asking to get married and putting a deadline on a proposal. I personally don't see a problem with a girl proposing. The "threat" of leaving is going to influence his decision to marry. Personally if a I wanted to marry a girl (and her me) I'd want to be sure that the decision is because she wants to and not because she's afraid I'm going to leave her if she doesn't marry me.

It's kind of like I were to propose to a girl and rather than say the typical "Will you marry me?" I'd say "You're going to have to marry me or I'm going to leave you."

There's no problem with him leaving her if she says no but putting an ultimatum up is going to influence her decision. I personally wouldn't want to influence that very personal decision.

[wordsmith]

I doubt many people would stick around and continue the relationship if a proposal were shot down. That's a pretty glaring piece of evidence that you're not on the same page, if one vocally wants to wed, and the other just as vocally doesn't. So, essentially, no matter how you dress it up, AREN'T proposals basically an unspoken, "If we don't get married, we're not staying together?" I would be interested to know some concrete data on couples who went on to enjoy a long-term unmarried relationship if one proposed and the other turned it down. I bet it's a small percentage.

[KCboy]

I still don't see why "marriage" is the goal (instead of "love").

We all compromise to a certain extent in a relationship. I can understand certain deal-breakers (kids). But is having a ring worth giving up a person that, before the unwillingnes to wed presented itself, you were chomping at the bit to spend the rest of your life with?

Maybe I just have a different view of marriage, but it seems if the guy was so great you wanted to make this "ultimate commitment", then you should be able to make it with or without a ring.

If something as simple as that can get you to walk away, how important was the guy to you in the first place? Is the label "married" more important than the person you are married to?

[Bocheezu]

Just from my personal perspective, if I had something that good going, there's no way I'd walk away from it simply because the odds would be so incredibly remote for me to find something like that again.

[blueyes]

If I knew my younger sister was receptive, I'd link her to this thread in a heartbeat...

I'm engaged (with a ring, which wasn't important, btw) and we will be married in October 2008. Prior to dating, my fiance was very interested in dating me, but laid some serious ultimatums on the line - which resulted in neither of us speaking to each other for nearly half a year. When we finally did start dating, it was cautious at first (and all of our friends were cringing for what they thought was the inevitable explosion). As far as the relationship goes, my fiance was ready WAY the hell before I was and spent the better part of a year putting out feelers to determine exactly how I felt about marriage, specifically in relation to him. To us, the wedding is important from the standpoint that it is one of a few days in your life where you can surround yourself with everyone you love - which is why we are having a wedding. But both of us stress that it isn't just MY day - he has made a hefty number of decisions - and it's a day for the both of us. But it is just one single day. We want a marriage and we're both willing to work as much as it takes to have a good and healthy marriage.

My sister, who is four years younger than me, is dating a guy (coming up on 2 years) who has flat-out told her he will not propose to her before our wedding. This isn't something my fiance or I imposed upon him - he came up with it on his own (ostensibly out of respect and quite possibly as a cover-up to delay an engagement). The two of them dated in HS and now again after college, but her b/f is simply not ready yet. My sister is beyond ready and for several months now, I've been getting emotional, weepy phone calls (usually late at night, usually after a fight) about how she doesn't understand why he just won't propose and she had expected to be married by now and she feels 'old' (the first time she said that, I was literally shocked speechless - I'm four years older than her), and on and on and on. While it is impossible to admit it to her - I insinuated it once and she didn't talk to me for nearly two weeks - I suspect a healthy amount of the drive for the proposal is that she just wants to be married to satisfy her timeline. IMO, that is a rough position for the guy - he becomes a checkbox on her timeline of life, just something to cross off of the List. I don't know how to counsel my sister, especially when her boyfriend does contrary things - like buy a ring or talk about buying a house. :question:

To me, marriage is important because it's a committment and it's the start of a new family. It's about love and sticking together and affection and toughing it out through crappy, awful times and the not-so-awful-but-little-annoying times (like... when socks do not into the hamper... ever).

[GreenwithEnvy]

Honestly, I think that age has a lot to do with it. I know some people who don't want to be married until they are well into their thirties. But I know people who got married at 20 or 21! It just depends on the person and their desires. There are so many different aspects that go into decided when a person wants to (or actually DOES) get married.
Have you ever discussed what age you'd like to be married, have kids, etc with your bf? Maybe he wants to do it later in life -- and maybe you want to do it a little earlier.
This could be causing some of the problem, esp. since there is an age difference with the two of you.
(Not saying that age differences are a bad thing, esp. since yours is only 2 years, but I would think that would be a factor).
But, hey, you never know . . . I have an aunt whose husband is 9 years older than her and they have been married for 17 years and have 3 kids!

[Girlie girl]

I don’t think a pre-nup fits Girlie girl’s idea of marriage, because that would be like planning on getting a divorce.

Out of curiosity, Girlie girl, would you still want to marry this guy if he would only do so with a pre-nup?

Umm.. in our situation I think I am the one with the better financial situation so I can’t imagine a pre-nup discussion coming up before marriage. But to answer your question - yes. I would marry him no matter what the situation.

There are so many excellent point-of-views on here. It really is a great discussion. I do want to confirm that I am not really looking at a wedding so much as a goal but as verbal confirmation/evidence that we are committed to each other and plan to spend the rest of our lives together. Its one thing to say “I love you, I want to be with you forever” but it’s another thing to say it during a ceremony, legally, with all of our loved ones there to witness it. I would love to bring all of our family and friends together to be with us on a special day to celebrate the beginning of the rest of our lives together.

I know that marriage is a lot of work and feel prepared because of the fact that we have been together for almost 7 years through thick and thin. I know that he is the one for me and I am not (could never) contemplate leaving him – just trying to manage my emotions and read about others opinions to give me the strength to try and relax and believe that it will happen soon.

I don’t want to give an ultimatum. As Mlle commented on, he is younger than me by 2 years and I have been taking that into consideration on his readiness to get married. Luckily (for me) his best friend just got married on Saturday and is always on my bf about when he will take the plunge with me. I have an entire family (the best friend’s family) bringing the topic of our future marriage up all the time so I am hoping it is just a question of me waiting a little while longer.

[wordsmith]

I still don't see why "marriage" is the goal (instead of "love").

We all compromise to a certain extent in a relationship. I can understand certain deal-breakers (kids). But is having a ring worth giving up a person that, before the unwillingnes to wed presented itself, you were chomping at the bit to spend the rest of your life with?

Maybe I just have a different view of marriage, but it seems if the guy was so great you wanted to make this "ultimate commitment", then you should be able to make it with or without a ring.

If something as simple as that can get you to walk away, how important was the guy to you in the first place? Is the label "married" more important than the person you are married to?

I agree, but it's important to note that, for me, a marriage isn't nearly as important as a solid, committed relationship I can count on, and that's based on mutual respect, which I have already, with or without marriage. If I were crazy to be married, I'd answer differently.

[wordsmith]

Honestly, I think that age has a lot to do with it. I know some people who don't want to be married until they are well into their thirties. But I know people who got married at 20 or 21! It just depends on the person and their desires. There are so many different aspects that go into decided when a person wants to (or actually DOES) get married.
Have you ever discussed what age you'd like to be married, have kids, etc with your bf? Maybe he wants to do it later in life -- and maybe you want to do it a little earlier.
This could be causing some of the problem, esp. since there is an age difference with the two of you.

Or, he may not HAVE an "age by which he'd like to be married." Not everybody puts personal timelines on these things (and I'd venture to say a lot of guys don't. I know I don't, and I'm female. I never did identify with the "I see myself married by [blank age]. I dunno. I see myself marrried whenever it happens. If it happens.

[gemma-dahl]

Where I come from, it's pretty common to get married right out of high school and begin having kids in your very early 20s. That was just never something I could see myself doing.

However, for a lot of girls, there was literally a competition ... over boys and over who could check all of the boxes off first. I keep in contact with all of my old neighbors and friends through the typical social networking channels, and nearly all of the women, including those who are 3, 4 years younger than I am (and even their little sisters in some cases) don't use their surnames from their youth anymore. Some of the marriages are good, a couple of girls did marry for money, some wound up with crapbag abusers, and a few are already on their second marriages.

I have no idea what the right age to get married is. I don't feel right about doing it yet, so I know I'm not ready. This thread is full of personal opinions precisely because marriage is such a personal issue.

[wordsmith]

Where I come from, it's pretty common to get married right out of high school and begin having kids in your very early 20s. That was just never something I could see myself doing.

Same. Small town, throwback central.

It works for some people (the strongest marriage among my childhood peers was a couple who dated all through hs and got hitched afterward), but it fails miserably for more. People end up feeling trapped by a decision they made too young, more often than not. Many of the early marriers I grew up with have, as you've also said, since exited the marriage and some have entered new ones.

Mostly, too, it was the people who weren't gonna be going off to school after HS. Those of us who were didn't really entertain the notion. I personally had no desire to be married and in college. I went to a school that didn't really have older students, so it def. wasn't the norm; we were mainly young and single.

[gemma-dahl]

I think that the difference between an 18-year-old and a 24-year-old is absolutely staggering, and that's one reason they call those marriages "starter marriages" (which is as dumb as "starter house"). When I was 18, my ideal guy had perfectly gelled hair, a cool dragon tattoo, and big biceps. Obviously, this was not a mature set of requirements with which to begin a commitment. :p

[wordsmith]

Yeah, the guy I dated at 17 went on to marry one of the early-marryin' type gals (I broke things off before I left for school). Three kids later, he's a single dad (last I saw him, which, granted, was about four years ago...he could be remarried since then, I guess).

[Krishna]

I still don't see why "marriage" is the goal (instead of "love").

We all compromise to a certain extent in a relationship. I can understand certain deal-breakers (kids). But is having a ring worth giving up a person that, before the unwillingnes to wed presented itself, you were chomping at the bit to spend the rest of your life with?

Maybe I just have a different view of marriage, but it seems if the guy was so great you wanted to make this "ultimate commitment", then you should be able to make it with or without a ring.

If something as simple as that can get you to walk away, how important was the guy to you in the first place? Is the label "married" more important than the person you are married to?

Marriage isnt necessarily more important than love for me. What I want is a solid relationship. For me, personally, a solid relationship eventually leads to marriage. (Not that I see anything wrong with those people who have no desire to get married and are perfectly happy with however their lives are.) For me, there are many practical reasons behind marriage- some can be achieved similarly through protective paperwork, and others cannot. For example: If my SO were deployed overseas right now, and something happened to him, I would not have access to military support groups, etc. Also, neither of our employers recognizes domestic partners. I don't mean to say that all I'm after are the benefits, etc. However, it is a consideration.

Again, marriage for me isnt more important than love...it is just that my personal belief FOR MYSELF is that a strong relationship should end in marriage.

[hoodie]

I guess when reading this thread, I am reminded of the fact that in long-standing and successful relationships, the people tend to have similar goals and values. If one person sees marriage as something they want and the other person doesn't want that for themselves, there is a conflict in what they value and it may indicate that they aren't so perfect for each other after all.

[Bocheezu]

I guess when reading this thread, I am reminded of the fact that in long-standing and successful relationships, the people tend to have similar goals and values. If one person sees marriage as something they want and the other person doesn't want that for themselves, there is a conflict in what they value and it may indicate that they aren't so perfect for each other after all.

And some people consider it a minor difference, the same as if they guy likes to watch football and the woman can't stand it. Some people really don't think it's dealbreaker worthy.

[KCboy]

When I was 18, my ideal guy had perfectly gelled hair, a cool dragon tattoo, and big biceps. Obviously, this was not a mature set of requirements with which to begin a commitment. :p

that's why I love older women. they typically have developed a better set of priorities.

[LaFille]

that's why I love older women. they typically have developed a better set of priorities.
older than 18, definitely a bonus ;):

[and1grad]

And some people consider it a minor difference, the same as if they guy likes to watch football and the woman can't stand it. Some people really don't think it's dealbreaker worthy.
But marriage IS a big deal. Lets not trivialize a defining moment in someone's life. I think its reasonable to become impatient if you've been with someone for that amount of time and they arent ready to marry you. I used to be one of those "the relationship is enough" guys but really...what if it were about having kids or some other lifelong goal that some of us may have. Is it ok to stay in a relationship over that too? Most of us would say that is a dealbreaker.

I agree with hoodie. If your goals arent in step, not much else is really going to matter. Do we really think a commitment would hold up if that werent the case? Maybe if you're committed to making each other miserable. The sentiment of "buying the cow when you can get the milk for free" was brought up earlier. I think the terminology may be outdated but the sentiment is not. Nor does it apply strictly to women. Women benefit from "shacking up" just as well.
also, IMO, men face the stigma of giving up a lot if the relationship does not work. A friend of mine (coming off his 2nd divorce) once said, "Next time I fall in love, I'm just gonna buy the b!tch a house."

Many women want security, both emotionally and financially. I think most men have no problem giving both, but the emotional support ends when the marriage does, the financial does not.
A great point that, in my opinion, cant be overstated.
This is what a good solid pre-nup is for. And all the relationships I've been in, they've known that if we do wind up getting married down the road, I would have a pre-nup.
Good lawyer can crush a solid pre-nup. A lot of judges arent overly enamored with pre-nups anyway. A-Rod has a pre-nup. Do you think his wife isnt gonna get BROKE OFF when they get divorced?

[ScottyTheBody]

Again, marriage for me isnt more important than love...it is just that my personal belief FOR MYSELF is that a strong relationship should end in marriage.

Well hopefully it's just as strong if not stronger with time and doesn't end.

[Bocheezu]

I don't believe that marriage should be a no-questions-asked prerequisite for having children.

And I really don't think marriage should be looked at as a "goal." A goal is something you achieve that took a lot of effort and not everyone can accomplish. Losing 40 pounds is a goal. Running a 5 minute mile is a goal. Getting a college degree is a goal. Anybody can get married. I just think it's the most overblown "accomplishment" out there.

[ScottyTheBody]

But marriage IS a big deal. Lets not trivialize a defining moment in someone's life. I think its reasonable to become impatient if you've been with someone for that amount of time and they arent ready to marry you. I used to be one of those "the relationship is enough" guys but really...what if it were about having kids or some other lifelong goal that some of us may have. Is it ok to stay in a relationship over that too? Most of us would say that is a dealbreaker.

Personally, I'd probably marry before kids and a house factor into the equation. However, the decision to marry comes with the decision to have a house together and the decision to have kids. I personally don't view them as very distinct things for MYSELF. If I marry the girl it's because I want to have kids with her (maybe not immediately but in the near future) and buy a house together, spend my life with her, etc. I won't be trying out the marriage then later on see if I would like to have kids with her. It would be kind of like a big package decision for myself. So myself marriage is like the biggest decision and I could probably foresee it taking time.

[KCboy]

I really don't think marriage should be looked at as a "goal." Losing 40 pounds is a goal. Running a 5 minute mile is a goal. Getting a college degree is a goal.

Also, with all of those examples the work is done when the goal is attained.

With marriage, the work is just starting. Marriage is just a step, not a goal.

[beeblebrox]

I don't believe that marriage should be a no-questions-asked prerequisite for having children.

And I really don't think marriage should be looked at as a "goal." A goal is something you achieve that took a lot of effort and not everyone can accomplish. Losing 40 pounds is a goal. Running a 5 minute mile is a goal. Getting a college degree is a goal. Anybody can get married. I just think it's the most overblown "accomplishment" out there.

I completely agree with your sentiment that there are people out there who think of getting married or marriage as a sense of "accomplishment." For awhile, I hung out with a married/engaged group. I'm neither of them but living with my boyfriend and am in the similar position as the OP. So, I competely understand where she's coming from.

With these group of married women, they practically went out of the way to talk about how special they were since they're married. When I was there, I always felt like they held being married, having a wedding, having a husband as the greatest accomplishment and I was nothing, not part of the group because I wasn't. It reminded me a lot of Charlotte in SATC where her sorority friends are all married and she doesn't feel like a member of the club. It felt that way for me. I found that I couldn't be around these smug "accomplished" women. Most of them seemed so wrapped up in their spouses that I was surprised that they were even social, but social only with married women.

[wordsmith]

And some people consider it a minor difference, the same as if they guy likes to watch football and the woman can't stand it. Some people really don't think it's dealbreaker worthy.

I honestly can't think of anybody I've ever met in real life who is or would be okay with this discrepancy. Wanting marriage and being with somebody who doesn't (or the reverse) has a bit more impact than whether or not the family room gets taken over during football season and one party has to go find something else to do.


This is an area where people really DO need to see eye to eye, and both be on the same page. It's not, "Oh, I like mashed potatoes, and he doesn't, how cute."

[wordsmith]

I completely agree with your sentiment that there are people out there who think of getting married or marriage as a sense of "accomplishment." For awhile, I hung out with a married/engaged group. I'm neither of them but living with my boyfriend and am in the similar position as the OP. So, I competely understand where she's coming from.

With these group of married women, they practically went out of the way to talk about how special they were since they're married. When I was there, I always felt like they held being married, having a wedding, having a husband as the greatest accomplishment and I was nothing, not part of the group because I wasn't. It reminded me a lot of Charlotte in SATC where her sorority friends are all married and she doesn't feel like a member of the club. It felt that way for me. I found that I couldn't be around these smug "accomplished" women. Most of them seemed so wrapped up in their spouses that I was surprised that they were even social, but social only with married women.

It's interesting, because I probably seem to the outward eye at least as wrapped up in my partner, with whom I live, as married women my age do with their spouses. People I've worked with have slipped up and referred to him as my "husband" before, so evidently, we interact in a spouselike fashion. Which makes sense, we live the same life as countless married couples (the notable exception being that I'm not eligible to be on his insurance or he mine).

[wordsmith]

Personally, I'd probably marry before kids and a house factor into the equation.

I would hands down have a kid with somebody I wasn't married to soooner than I would buy a house (or a car, or whatever) with somebody I wasn't married to, I'll tell you that right now.

[ScottyTheBody]

I would hands down have a kid with somebody I wasn't married to soooner than I would buy a house (or a car, or whatever) with somebody I wasn't married to, I'll tell you that right now.

Really? That's kind of surprising. I just see the child just seems so much more permanent than a car or house. The worst case scenario with property or possessions is arguments over money or scrapping the entire object, the worst case scenario with a child is much worse (not to mention MUCH more expensive). I mean of course if I happened to have a kid (like by mistake or something) and I wasn't married I'd keep it and want to be a part of it's life but I'd prefer to be married first (but that's just me).

[spiritedaway]

Personally, I would not buy a house with a guy or have a kid unless I'm married to him. I just don't see the point. Having a kid is a bigger and more permanent commitment than marriage (IMHO). If the guy can't even handle the basic commitment of marriage, do I really want him to be the father of our child? No, I don't think so.

As for the house, it doesn't make a lot of financial sense for me to buy a house with someone I don't intend to spend the rest of my life, but that's just me. This is less of a deal than the kid.

Marriage is step, and not the goal, but it's big enough of a step that it would be a dealbreaker if the person I'm into is on a different page.

[and1grad]

Is it a bad thing for marriage to be a goal for a relationship? If I'm in a long standing relationship with someone, my goal is to have a great marriage with that person. My goal is to have that and a family. These are worthwhile goals to many. If that isnt the case for you, fine.

[Krishna]

Is it a bad thing for marriage to be a goal for a relationship? If I'm in a long standing relationship with someone, my goal is to have a great marriage with that person. My goal is to have that and a family. These are worthwhile goals to many. If that isnt the case for you, fine.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.:)

[spiritedaway]

Amen - I agree with this wholeheartedly too.

Is it a bad thing for marriage to be a goal for a relationship? If I'm in a long standing relationship with someone, my goal is to have a great marriage with that person. My goal is to have that and a family. These are worthwhile goals to many. If that isnt the case for you, fine.

[Bocheezu]

Having a good marriage is a perfect goal. Getting married isn't.

[gemma-dahl]

Is it a bad thing for marriage to be a goal for a relationship? If I'm in a long standing relationship with someone, my goal is to have a great marriage with that person. My goal is to have that and a family. These are worthwhile goals to many. If that isnt the case for you, fine.

No, I would say that is not a bad thing at all. I thought about what you said, and I think it is awesome to desire a great marriage. When I am ready, that would be my preference as well. I'm just not prepared for that at this time ... and really, my hesitation is rooted more in the logistics, cost, and time commitment inherent to such an endeavor than anything else.

I'm loving the line about mashed potatoes. :)

[gemma-dahl]

This is a great thread. I really like the discussion going on in here, overall.

And now... it's bedtime.

[and1grad]

Having a good marriage is a perfect goal. Getting married isn't.
The fact that I would be getting married means that I've found the person that will help me achieve those goals. Thats cause for celebration. ;)

[ScottyTheBody]

Having a good marriage is a perfect goal. Getting married isn't.

Exactly. It's kind of like saying that having a child is your goal rather than doing your best to raise the child. Anyone can get married and anyone can have a child but it takes true dedication and love to have a good one.

[hoodie]

I have to agree that when marriage is viewed like a goal, like losing 40 lbs. or running a 5 min. mile, it doesn't end there. But honestly...you don't lose 40 lbs. then start eating doughnuts and fast food for every meal. You don't run your 5 min. mile and then say, "Hey, that was cool. Now I'm going to quit jogging."

Goals, as I see them, are lifelong achievements. When I lost weight, it was to achieve a more healthy way of living and eating. When I challenge myself to run, it's to keep challenging myself and getting better and better at it. With marriage as a goal, I will see it as a lifelong challenge too, to be a good and faithful partner and WORK HARD to do so. I don't think anyone here who sees marriage as a goal sees it as being something that's easy or effort free post-wedding, but nonetheless, it still is a goal.

[Deni81]

Having a good marriage is a perfect goal. Getting married isn't.

Exactly! I think way too many people lose sight of that.

[wordsmith]

Is it a bad thing for marriage to be a goal for a relationship? If I'm in a long standing relationship with someone, my goal is to have a great marriage with that person. My goal is to have that and a family. These are worthwhile goals to many. If that isnt the case for you, fine.

Having a good marriage is a perfect goal. Getting married isn't.

It's probably just semantics, but I look at the good, strong relationship itself as the goal. Without it, a marriage is either nonexistent, or a formality that means little. And you can have that strong relationship with or without the marriage. I guess I don't have an issue with marriage being a goal, but to me, the relationship itself, relating to somebody in that way, marriage or no marriage, is the main goal.