afraid of being single?

[Echo]

Do you ever get scared of the idea of being single? Does it feel as bad as being unemployed to you? Do you ever feel a great big hole within you? What are your experiences of being single?

Here's my account. At first when I broke up with my bf, I was sort of relieved. I felt free to do whatever I wanted. Free to get a job in England and think about being a bit more settled with a job in London and a new group of friends and hobbies. And life started going well for me, I had more energy to think about myself. When I had a bf, it seemed like I had no career or future, I felt that to continue being with him, I had to have a transient state of mind that would allow me to follow him wherever he went.

That's not to say I wanted to sacrifice my own dreams and plans, I assumed he would settle with me in London in the end, so I postponed my dreams and plans.

But I realised that state of mind wasn't for me. I like security and constancy, I wanted to put down my roots somewhere and start life with a strong foundation under me, like a great big tree with roots. I wanted to stay in London - it's a fine city after all.

So I broke up. But a few weeks after the break-up, even though good things have been happening to me, I just feel an emptiness and loneliness.

So I posted an ad on gumtree and got lots of replies from guys. I even arranged a date with one of them but backed out at the last minute because I realised it was too soon for me to get close to another guy. So here I am, feeling empty but not wanting a relationship for a while.

I just feel very lucky to be single and on the right career path, I just don't know how to get rid of the gap because I'm not enthusiastic enough to try new hobbies.

The idea of being married with kids seems depressing at this point because I'm not mature enough to be really selfless. I feel that if I was to ever get married and have kids, I'd end up being a single mother or be so put off by it all that I'd remain single for the rest of my life.

I keep reading about high profile politicians quitting their jobs because they find it hard to be completely committed to their jobs and their role as mothers. I keep reading about the gender gap not getting any smaller. I read about the glass ceiling now being covered in concrete. So equality-wise, things are getting worse for women (in Britain at least). I hear about studies that say that marriage makes men live longer but decreases women's life expectancy.

I'm beginning to wonder if marriage is the natural state of human existence. Apparently, love has 3 components: lust, attraction and attachment. Lust doesn't last very long, it's to do with that initial attraction to a gorgeous, fascinating stranger. And then (here's the bit that I found interesting:) attraction lasts between 1.5 - 3 years. Just long enough to have a child together and raise it until it's no longer vulnerable and tiny.

And attachment is something that people have if they've got great relationship skills or deeply love the other person. And not everyone can find this kind of love.

Apparently, the average marriage lasts about 11 years - a mixture of attraction and sense of obligation to stay together based on societal expectations.

I mean, women are evolving more and more to be free and to have dreams of their own that does not put the family's interests first. In other words, we're becoming more and more like men.

So, in a climate like this, how do you make decisions?

And you might be asking, where do I get my information from, and it doesn't matter where I get it from, I'm not here to make accurate, empirical theories. My aim is reorganise the world in my mind so that I can understand things better and accuracy isn't important for me, it's the idea that counts.

For those who are married or thinking of getting married. What are your reactions to what I've said? Is it possible to follow your dreams and still be a wife and mother? Are dreams important anyway?

I'd also like to hear from men. Guys, if you were married to a very strong-willed or stubborn woman, would you be willing to do a role reversal like you staying at home raising your child while she goes to work or follows her dreams? Or is it only the man's prerogative to have that right?

[Bocheezu]

Guys, if you were married to a very strong-willed or stubborn woman, would you be willing to do a role reversal like you staying at home raising your child while she goes to work or follows her dreams? Or is it only the man's prerogative to have that right?

First off, she'd have to be making really good money for this to be viable. And if that was the case, I'd imagine we'd opt for day care all the time, with my mother babysitting occasionally. There's no way that I'd be a stay-at-home dad, because it would be stupid financially.

Among the people I know, there are four families that are doing the role-reversal, with mixed results. My sister is a vet and her husband doesn't work, and they seem "mildly OK" about it. My sister did have a meltdown last year about it, but she seems fine now. My traditional mother hates the situation, of course.

One of my cousin's friends has this setup, and in that case, the wife works her ass off, doesn't make that much money, and their house is a total mess because the guy doesn't do anything except keep their 9-year-old in check. Shit everywhere and a house in dire need of updating (they have no curtains and just put newspapers over the windows), and the guy basically mows a few lawns every once in a while for some pocket money and that's it.

The other two families are a little more even between the two, and they basically take advantage of my cousin, who's a stay-at-home mother. So they all work while my cousin babysits their kids. Not a big deal during the school year but certainly a big deal during the summer. I don't know if they pay her or what, but I think it's kinda lame how all the neighbors dump their kids on my cousin because she's the only one that doesn't work. Which is a direct result of their husbands not making enough money. One husband does odd jobs and the other is a welder. A situation like that is just inexcusable to me, and I'd feel completely embarrassed for taking advantage of a neighbor like that.

My point is that, from my experience, not many true stay-at-home dads take on all the responsibility that the woman traditionally had -- this includes cooking, cleaning, bookkeeping, and all the others that go beyond just taking care of the kids. I know I'd have a hard time cooking or cleaning in that situation. Generally, there is a disconnect there as far as who is responsible for what and it does cause friction in the relationship.

[vinsanity]

I'd also like to hear from men. Guys, if you were married to a very strong-willed or stubborn woman, would you be willing to do a role reversal like you staying at home raising your child while she goes to work or follows her dreams? Or is it only the man's prerogative to have that right?

Honestly, I don't think that would be the ideal time to start a family. The ideal time would be when those goals have already been accomplished, or at least when both people have enough time to contribute to raising the family.

[Echo]

That's the problem, isn't it? Even when both partners are working the same hours, the woman tends to do the lions share of the housework.

The problem isn't that men are lazy dirty fools and women are hygiene-freaks. It's just the culture we grow up in. Children are raised by their mothers to fit into gender roles. Girls are taught to be tidy and clean while boys are taught that it's ok to be messy (although this varies from parent to parent).

What's wrong with men isn't that they don't mind mess in general. When guys are at college or bachelors post-college, the majority of them live in a constant state of mess. But they have the attitude that it's not going to last forever, they'll have a wife or hired cleaner to do that for them. For them, mess, chores and the daily drudgery is something that someone else is going to do.

It's how we're raised, I don't think we're inherently like that based on gender. I've known many girls who were absolute slobs and many guys who were organised and tidy - they obviously defied convention by giving in to their true natures.

If I get married, I'd hate to be the kind of woman who tidies up after everyone on a regular basis. I'd hate for it to be my role. If I'm wealthy enough, I'd employ a cleaner to do the hard work, but otherwise, I'd want the usual chores to be shared evenly - including getting my (hypothetical) child to do some housework too.

To be honest, I'm quite old-fashioned about child-rearing - I'd want to raise the child myself and raise it properly (ie look after it full-time for 2 years and part time for another 2-3 years until it can go to school). But I can imagine how utterly unfulfilling that could be and stressful too (running the family all by yourself). You see, there's a difference between being a father and a mother. If you're a stay-at-home father, you tend to think of it as being a job, and so you refuse to do things which are outside your job description. If you're a mother, you don't see it as a job, you see it as your identity, your sole reason for existence at that particular moment in time when the child is small.

Women tend to strive to be perfect. They can't help it, it's instilled in them from a very young age. Not only do they have to be good at social relationships and please other people, but they have to try to be as pretty as they can, and nowadays, they have to have a career too because apparently it's lame to just be a housegirl and then a housewife. And when women practise religion, they're pious in a different way to men - they want to be amazing, saint-like creatures, whereas men want to be leaders and are less harsh on themselves when they do wrong things. This is because religion is created by men, so men know not to take it too seriously.

Sorry about my gender rant, but sometimes I get so pissed off.

[AsianGeek]

Only feasible if you're making enough money to not worry about money.

[yogaflame13]

That's the problem, isn't it? Even when both partners are working the same hours, the woman tends to do the lions share of the housework.

The problem isn't that men are lazy dirty fools and women are hygiene-freaks. It's just the culture we grow up in. Children are raised by their mothers to fit into gender roles. Girls are taught to be tidy and clean while boys are taught that it's ok to be messy (although this varies from parent to parent).

What's wrong with men isn't that they don't mind mess in general. When guys are at college or bachelors post-college, the majority of them live in a constant state of mess. But they have the attitude that it's not going to last forever, they'll have a wife or hired cleaner to do that for them. For them, mess, chores and the daily drudgery is something that someone else is going to do.

It's how we're raised, I don't think we're inherently like that based on gender. I've known many girls who were absolute slobs and many guys who were organised and tidy - they obviously defied convention by giving in to their true natures.

If I get married, I'd hate to be the kind of woman who tidies up after everyone on a regular basis. I'd hate for it to be my role. If I'm wealthy enough, I'd employ a cleaner to do the hard work, but otherwise, I'd want the usual chores to be shared evenly - including getting my (hypothetical) child to do some housework too.

To be honest, I'm quite old-fashioned about child-rearing - I'd want to raise the child myself and raise it properly (ie look after it full-time for 2 years and part time for another 2-3 years until it can go to school). But I can imagine how utterly unfulfilling that could be and stressful too (running the family all by yourself). You see, there's a difference between being a father and a mother. If you're a stay-at-home father, you tend to think of it as being a job, and so you refuse to do things which are outside your job description. If you're a mother, you don't see it as a job, you see it as your identity, your sole reason for existence at that particular moment in time when the child is small.

Women tend to strive to be perfect. They can't help it, it's instilled in them from a very young age. Not only do they have to be good at social relationships and please other people, but they have to try to be as pretty as they can, and nowadays, they have to have a career too because apparently it's lame to just be a housegirl and then a housewife. And when women practise religion, they're pious in a different way to men - they want to be amazing, saint-like creatures, whereas men want to be leaders and are less harsh on themselves when they do wrong things. This is because religion is created by men, so men know not to take it too seriously.

Sorry about my gender rant, but sometimes I get so pissed off.

This whole post makes me think it's 1952 or something...really doesn't sound a lot like reality anymore to me...maybe it's different for you, but I wasn't raised to be a gender stereotype and none of my friends' families operate like that. Again if that really is reality to you, I feel sorry for you...

If/when it comes time for you to create a family, just start it with equality in mind! Again, I have no idea what your life has been like to this point or what examples you have seen in your own family or whatever, but it sounds like you might be overthinking this whole thing and stressing...when it is time for you to make your own family, I'm sure you will find someone to create a better, more equal situation hopefully!

[Echo]

The difference between 2008 and 1952 is that in 1952, it was accepted as the natural order of things and there were less women in the workplace.

What's still not changed is the idea that women have to be the ones concerned with keeping the house clean and tidy and doing the majority of the work that isnt considered work at all. If you think about it, 1952 isn't that long ago, there are still people who are alive now who were alive then.

And if you think about it, people who had children in the 80s and 90s onwards who didn't teach their children rigid gender roles aren't making that much of a difference - it's only been 30 or so years. And even then, not all new parents from those decades were so progressive. So, really, people aren't as progressive as you might think. It'll be another 50-100 years before women are slightly more equal.

[Echo]

Only feasible if you're making enough money to not worry about money.

So, if your wife was making a bit more than you, like $5k a year more, would you give up yout job?

[vinsanity]

Nope. It would have to be closer to $50k more.

Remember, $5,000 USD is like ₤200 :rolleyes:

[Echo]

Nope. It would have to be closer to $50k more.

Remember, $5,000 USD is like ₤200 :rolleyes:

pfft, more like $2,500 USD! :heehee:

[ScottyTheBody]

The difference between 2008 and 1952 is that in 1952, it was accepted as the natural order of things and there were less women in the workplace.

What's still not changed is the idea that women have to be the ones concerned with keeping the house clean and tidy and doing the majority of the work that isnt considered work at all. If you think about it, 1952 isn't that long ago, there are still people who are alive now who were alive then.

And if you think about it, people who had children in the 80s and 90s onwards who didn't teach their children rigid gender roles aren't making that much of a difference - it's only been 30 or so years. And even then, not all new parents from those decades were so progressive. So, really, people aren't as progressive as you might think. It'll be another 50-100 years before women are slightly more equal.

I don't know about your household but my home was somewhat different (and I honestly hope mine will be "different" too).

At my home one parent did the cooking (mom often did it but dad did sometimes too, especially on Saturdays or in the mornings since he often had to work late), the other parent did the dishes/cleanup. My mom helped us kids with english, history, geography, art, and literature homework and my dad helped with math, science and technology homework. My dad did the vacuuming (or us kids did) and my mom mopped the floors (or us kids did). My mom did the laundry and my dad cut the lawn/shovel snow/additional outside work (and my brother and I often assisted him). My dad usually did the garbage and recycling and my mom usually got the groceries.

They just kind of independently divided the tasks and made it work.

Now my grandparents is another story and they fit much closer into that "1952" mold.

[ScottyTheBody]

Do you ever get scared of the idea of being single? Does it feel as bad as being unemployed to you? Do you ever feel a great big hole within you? What are your experiences of being single?

I think I might actually prefer being single...however if the right person came along my view would probably change, but I haven't run into anyone even close to what I want. I'm satisfied with being single. There aren't a lot of rollercoaster type UP's and DOWN's in my life but it's mostly good.


Guys, if you were married to a very strong-willed or stubborn woman, would you be willing to do a role reversal like you staying at home raising your child while she goes to work or follows her dreams? Or is it only the man's prerogative to have that right?

I'm probably in the minority on this but if I was dedicated to my child and my wife then I probably would stay home. However, there are some stipulations that go with this. If she's making more money AND her job is very reliable/stable and/or there's room for growth, etc then I'd be okay with it. If she's a struggling actress going after her dreams and we couldn't live comfortably off her pay check or she's bouncing job to job or her job isn't very stable then I probably wouldn't go for it and would prefer to keep my job. I wouldn't presume that she should have to give up her dream but I can't risk being financially strapped for the kid's sake.

[Bocheezu]

Our roles growing up:

Mom did all cooking and dishwashing and cleaned until we got a cleaning lady in my teens. She very rarely took a day off from cooking as well -- "breaking down" and buying pizza on Friday caused her a large amount of guilt so she tried to avoid it.

Dad mowed the lawn till I was 9, at which point he did next to nothing. Basically did some work on cars (oil changes, etc.) that you can get someone else to do without it costing much. Also some minor repairs to the house that he couldn't trust me to do.

I mowed the lawn, raked leaves (which was a huge job in the fall -- often 15-20 paper lawn bags per week for about 6 weeks), swept our outside patios/decks (which we had a lot of in the back yard, with the beforementioned trees constantly dropping acorns on them), cleaned gutters, chopped wood from fallen trees.

My sister never lifted a finger her entire existence growing up.

[yogaflame13]

The difference between 2008 and 1952 is that in 1952, it was accepted as the natural order of things and there were less women in the workplace.

What's still not changed is the idea that women have to be the ones concerned with keeping the house clean and tidy and doing the majority of the work that isnt considered work at all. If you think about it, 1952 isn't that long ago, there are still people who are alive now who were alive then.

And if you think about it, people who had children in the 80s and 90s onwards who didn't teach their children rigid gender roles aren't making that much of a difference - it's only been 30 or so years. And even then, not all new parents from those decades were so progressive. So, really, people aren't as progressive as you might think. It'll be another 50-100 years before women are slightly more equal.

I don't mean to be "that guy" but what data do you have to back all this up? I'm not saying that you are right or wrong (more likely somewhere in between), but not sure how you can actually quantify all this aside from observation. But the way you are talking, sounds like there musta been a survey or something?

[wordsmith]

For those who are married or thinking of getting married. What are your reactions to what I've said? Is it possible to follow your dreams and still be a wife and mother? Are dreams important anyway?



Well, my dreams have always involved educating and taking care of people. Every position I've held professionally has involved informing, educating, and/or nurturing people, often a combination of the three. Coincidentally (or perhaps not), these are also the major components of successful childrearing. So, for me, personally, being, say, a stay at home mom dovetails actually pretty nicely with the things I enjoy doing and am best at. Right now, I get paid to do those things. Were I to stay at home with kids and do those things, I obviously wouldn't be getting paid. So it would really depend on my need for the income, and that's about it. The things I do in my professional life, I'd be doing if I were staying at home with kids - teaching them, nurturing them, making them stronger, more independent people. I wouldn't have to abandon my dreams if I were a homemaker, I'd still be following them, just in a different context.

To me, if one partner is able to stay home with the kids, it makes the most sense that it be the partner whose job brings in less.

[wordsmith]

That's the problem, isn't it? Even when both partners are working the same hours, the woman tends to do the lions share of the housework.

My boyfriend and I each work a full workweek with overtime much of the time, and I have to say, he does a TON of the housework. I cook the majority of the time, and do all the meal planning. I generally do most of the laundry apart from his work clothes, which he gets dry cleaned. I also take care of organizing and handling random clutter. He takes care of the cars, takes the garbage out, sweeps, vacuums, cleans the bathroom (including toilet scrubbing, grout scrubbing, etc.), and is usually the one who does the dishes.

This has been important to me, since I grew up in a household where my dad (who was taught this by his WWII-era mom) set the tone that "boys don't have to do 'women's' work." I like being with somebody who has lived on his own, knows how to take care of himself without somebody picking up after him, and splits duties with me.

[Echo]

Wordsmith, sounds like you've got yourself a gem of a boyfriend. My ex used to be so messy and took absolutely ages to wash the dishes or chop things up... it would take so long that I'd take control and do it myself. Though, he was raised by a mother who wouldn't let anyone do the dishes or cook anything because she didn't want them messing up her kitchen. So it was a vicious circle for him really.

I have high hopes for the future generations and our generation too in terms of gender equality (I'm not just talking about kitchen politics here, that would be oversimplifying).

And, yogaflame, I'll give you a few links to what I've been reading:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1063792/Bridget-Jones-generation-blame-breakdown-family.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/sep/04/equality.humanrights

[drummer]

Another thing to think about...

My mom does a majority of the day-to-day household things like cooking and cleaning, but my dad does a lot of the less-often, though frequently, larger jobs, like bigger house projects, cars (I got a flat tire a month ago and my dad spent several hours with me getting that taken care of. My mom would've never have done that), and other things. Also, in my case my mom only works a part-time job eight hours a week and my dad works full-time in addition to several other activities.

So the point is, one person might do more things, while the other might do less, though slightly more time-consuming (or physically demanding), things.

A woman offering to cook or clean does not mean she's subscribing to a 1952 lifestyle. Just like mowing the lawn, fixing the car, does not mean a man is subscribing to a 1952 lifestyle either.

But I will say, as a guy who kept his college dorm room and then later, a house, very clean, I got tons of weird looks and "Whoa!" when people saw it. This one girl would then apologize when I went over to her place as if I expected everyone else to have a clean place too (I didn't care at all).

[bluespoon]

I think I might actually prefer being single...however if the right person came along my view would probably change, but I haven't run into anyone even close to what I want. I'm satisfied with being single. There aren't a lot of rollercoaster type UP's and DOWN's in my life but it's mostly good.


Ditto. At this point in my life anyway. Relationships are difficult....too difficult for me right now :D

I think when people start putting labels on relationships is when problems arise, because along with the labels come all these stupid stereotypes. I never saw my mom as a 'housewife' even though she stayed at home to take care of me and my brother. Growing up, my dad worked all the time (ALL the time) and my mom didn't work, except for a part time job every once in a while. Somehow it all worked out that my parents, me and my brother were all doing sort of an equal amount of chores around the house. (when we felt like it anyway....no one was really a neat freak lol) Everyone always did their own laundry. Both my mom and dad cooked.

Anyway, it should be about SHARING household responsibilities. I don't think being a stay at home parent equates to having to clean up after everyone. That's ridiculous. And I don't think because a woman chooses to stay at home with the kids means that she's suddenly 'repressed' or regressing back to the 50s.

On another note, what pisses me off is this obsession in our society/media with the woman's struggle of balancing work and home life. I'll use Sarah Palin as an example because she's been everywhere lately. Right out of the gate people were like "how's she gonna do it, she has all these kids blah blah" Like she was a single mother or something. HELLO what about her husband? People never question the husband's role in the family. I've NEVER heard a man say "Well it's been tough working full time with x kids" And I've NEVER heard anyone ask "How will he be able to balance work and family?"


"We know that we can do what men can do, but we still don't know that men can do what women can do. That's absolutely crucial. We can't go on doing two jobs." - Gloria Steinem

[bluespoon]

A woman offering to cook or clean does not mean she's subscribing to a 1952 lifestyle. Just like mowing the lawn, fixing the car, does not mean a man is subscribing to a 1952 lifestyle either.


ah yes, just what I said...I didn't see your post before I posted mine though hehe

another thing I wanted to add...I wish cooking and cleaning house would become a completely gender neutral thing, because that's what it is. Women shouldn't have to feel that they need to be the ones to do it all nor should they feel that they SHOULDN'T because, 'strong, independent women don't clean!'

it's silly

[wordsmith]

Seriously, enjoying things neat, clean, liveable, and presentable and being willing to put in the time and effort to make things that way is not really a gender role thing. It's a personality thing. I'm sure we've all known neat freaks and utter slobs of both genders, and everything in between.

Women came to the homemaker role naturally in eras in which they were not expected to work outside the home; their job was to manage the home. Now that comparatively few women are in positions to do this, things are much different. It's no longer a given that a woman can cook from scratch (or that a guy can't), ditto rudimentary sewing/mending, waxing a floor, and various other handicrafts and utilitarian tasks. Working outside the home, and many of those things no longer seen as necessary, has made those skills fairly dormant. Ditto for lots of "man" stuff...guys of this generation aren't the same Mr. Fix Its, overall, that many of our grandfathers and possibly our fathers likely were. Society has moved past many DIY roles, which is some ways is really too bad. We're a somewhat less independent society for not knowing how to fix our own cars, patch our own drywall, or cook a meal without 99% prepackaged goods.

[Echo]

http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2006/edition_06-18-2006/Good_Medicine

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4779267.stm

According to these articles that I've read, marriage is actually a really good thing for men in that it makes them live longer (through the power of touch). Men don't tend to hug each other or their female friends that often, so they suffer more from being single.

Women on the other hand can survive being single and are often as happy in singledom as in marriage.

Both genders apparently suffer mental health problems when they're with the wrong person. Overall, being happily married to the right person is the most beneficial thing of all, second to that is being happily single.

Kind of confusing and ambiguous information, but it somehow makes sense: being in a bad relationship sucks, it's best to be single and wait for the right person.

[Bocheezu]

Seriously, enjoying things neat, clean, liveable, and presentable and being willing to put in the time and effort to make things that way is not really a gender role thing. It's a personality thing.

I do think it's somewhat influenced by gender, though, and guys are generally messier than women. It's amazing to me that my college roommates were even messier than I am. I literally had to clean everything myself, and this wasn't until there was massive mildew involved. I really don't see a whole apartment of three women having the same thing occur. One women here or there may be as messy as I am, but not all three in one apartment.

We're a somewhat less independent society for not knowing how to fix our own cars, patch our own drywall, or cook a meal without 99% prepackaged goods.

There's a few things going on here.

1. We're a lot richer than we used to be and can just pay someone to do it for us. Cars especially, because you need a million tools to properly maintain everything on a car. My dad used to be a big car guy, and I remember in high school the throw out bearing in my '84 Capri wore down and needed to be replaced. This is the bearing that disengages the engine from the transmission when you hit the clutch, and to get at it, you have to tear out the driveshaft and drop the tranny AND have the right tools to take the bearing out and replace it. This job took my dad a whole weekened, starting Friday night. Afterwards, he vowed never, ever to do it again. It's worth every penny to have someone else do it. There really isn't much that's worth DIY'ing on a car. Maybe replacing the brakes/rotors. That's about it. I wouldn't even change my own oil -- you save what, $5? Fuck that.

2. There's a hell of a lot better things to do. Cooking, for me personally, is a waste of time. I eat to live, not the other way around. Hit button on microwave, do something else for seven minutes, take food out, eat, get back to doing other shit. The eating + cleanup process (throw out microwave bowl thing and clean spoon) takes 10 minutes total, and then I'm back doing what I want to do, which is not cooking.

[AsianGeek]

So, if your wife was making a bit more than you, like $5k a year more, would you give up yout job?

Nope, we can't even hold down a decent house in my area with our combined income, it makes no sense for me to quit my job. If my wife was making 250k+ a year then I can see myself not working as that's more than enough to support a nice house and put the kids through an ivy league school.

[Echo]

Bocheezu, I understand your reasons for not wanting to do DIY work on cars and stuff, but not cooking food from scratch is something that causes problems for most people, namely, weight gain.

Countries where people cook food from scratch have far fewer obese people. Take Poland for example, a country where the food is quite rich and they don't hold back on using fat in their cooking. Yet they're quite slim and healthy.

I just think that it's a shame that people forget their natural survival and craft skills because they're working too many hours or have too many expectations and stress in their lives. It's the simple things in life that slow life down and make us happy. Being efficient, robotic isn't healthy for us nor does it make us happier.

When I was at college, I was shocked by how useless and dependent on artificial things some of the people I lived with were. I had a housemate who used to take her washed laundry to a laundromat to put them in the dryer when there was a clothes line in the garden and it was warm and dry outside.

I had another housemate who was trying to lose wight and instead of eating more fruit, veg and fish used to eat low-fat chocolate, chips and cookies.

I had another housemate who literally ate like a destitute pauper even though his parents were supporting him and were middle-class. All he ate was white bread, bacon, sausages, burgers, cookies and ready-made Indian food. Okay, fine, he drank orange juice and milk which are good for you, but that's about it.

I don't know, growing up in a practical house where we didn't eat out much or didn't pay for services but did them ourselves, we had really good skills and those skills will be with me forever and will make me a well-balanced person. And I find it hard that other people struggle to eat healthily, when it's something that comes naturally to me and my family. Vegetables too expensive? Grow them in your back garden and don't spend a penny for the whole of summer and autumn. Fish and meat too expensive and hard to cook? Then eat them less frequently or go to a restaurant every month to get your nutrients in a fun way.

[AsianGeek]

Protein is essential in your diet. It's not really healthy to have just a monthly intake. But still, you can get a week's worth of meat for yourself easily for 10 dollars.

Still I agree with you that many people are very wasteful.

[Echo]

Protein is essential in your diet. It's not really healthy to have just a monthly intake. But still, you can get a week's worth of meat for yourself easily for 10 dollars.

Still I agree with you that many people are very wasteful.

you can get protein from other things too like eggs, chickpeas, cheese etc, you can get canned fish which is cheap.

[wordsmith]

I just think that it's a shame that people forget their natural survival and craft skills because they're working too many hours or have too many expectations and stress in their lives. It's the simple things in life that slow life down and make us happy. Being efficient, robotic isn't healthy for us nor does it make us happier.

Very much agreed. Having diverse skills and interests in acquiring skills also makes you more interesting as a person. People who are always looking for the shortcut, prefab, prepackaged, etc. always seem so boring.

When I was at college, I was shocked by how useless and dependent on artificial things some of the people I lived with were. I had a housemate who used to take her washed laundry to a laundromat to put them in the dryer when there was a clothes line in the garden and it was warm and dry outside...

...I don't know, growing up in a practical house where we didn't eat out much or didn't pay for services but did them ourselves, we had really good skills and those skills will be with me forever and will make me a well-balanced person. And I find it hard that other people struggle to eat healthily, when it's something that comes naturally to me and my family. Vegetables too expensive? Grow them in your back garden and don't spend a penny for the whole of summer and autumn. Fish and meat too expensive and hard to cook? Then eat them less frequently or go to a restaurant every month to get your nutrients in a fun way.

Exactly the same experience and upbringing, here.

[wordsmith]

I do think it's somewhat influenced by gender, though, and guys are generally messier than women. It's amazing to me that my college roommates were even messier than I am. I literally had to clean everything myself, and this wasn't until there was massive mildew involved. I really don't see a whole apartment of three women having the same thing occur. One women here or there may be as messy as I am, but not all three in one apartment.

Boyfriend's way neater, cleaner, and more anal than I am. By leaps and bounds. And I was an RA in the dorms in college. Women grossness and guy grossness is not necessarily the same grossness, but trust that the grossness exists, none the less. I've lived with girls and guys most of my life, but for disgusting, unhygienic personal habits and messiness, my sophomore year roommate (a woman), takes the cake.

[AsianGeek]

yeah messyness comes in different factors.

I'm usually pretty anal about the bathroom, kitchen, and living room. But I tend to leave messes on my desk and receipts pile up in my car.

[wordsmith]

Clutter/messiness and unsanitary filth, in most circumstances, are two different leagues, IMO. Although extreme clutter can BECOME unsanitary. But messy doesn't necessarily equal dirty.

[Millenial]

I am not afraid of being single at all, I am more afraid of feeling a sense of emptiness to be unable to share shit with so, I don't need an SO to do that. For me it's been a pattern of having few friends when being single or having tons when seeing someone, I don't really have a close (geographically) group of friends I hang with.

I also resent/fear being judged for that when meeting new people.

The pro of being single for me is I appreciate my privacy, I don't have to answer to anyone regarding living quarters, and I don't have to base my schedule around anyone. The cons are obvious, it gets lonely, even when you do find happiness alone you still feel the need to want to share it, sex, etc.

[yogaflame13]

Wordsmith, sounds like you've got yourself a gem of a boyfriend. My ex used to be so messy and took absolutely ages to wash the dishes or chop things up... it would take so long that I'd take control and do it myself. Though, he was raised by a mother who wouldn't let anyone do the dishes or cook anything because she didn't want them messing up her kitchen. So it was a vicious circle for him really.

I have high hopes for the future generations and our generation too in terms of gender equality (I'm not just talking about kitchen politics here, that would be oversimplifying).

And, yogaflame, I'll give you a few links to what I've been reading:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1063792/Bridget-Jones-generation-blame-breakdown-family.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/sep/04/equality.humanrights

Those are some interesting articles, though they kinda conflict with each other. I think it's an interesting era we live in, with gender roles (from social, professional, and relationship-oriented perspectives) evolving. I would imagine the whole thing causes some confusion on both sides. I don't want to hijack this thread away from its original topic though...maybe another thread? :P

[wordsmith]

I enjoy privacy (hard not to, after living alone for seven years), but it's not nearly so much a priority as sharing my life is. Compromising on some privacy is totally fine by me; I'd rather be with my partner and give some of that up than retain it all and not be with my partner.

[Echo]

Those are some interesting articles, though they kinda conflict with each other. I think it's an interesting era we live in, with gender roles (from social, professional, and relationship-oriented perspectives) evolving. I would imagine the whole thing causes some confusion on both sides. I don't want to hijack this thread away from its original topic though...maybe another thread? :P

No, go ahead because this thread has split into many different topics already... nothing wrong with that :)

[CoolAZN]

Hmmm....being single has some of it's advantages.
But afraid from it, I might be. Since I always wonder or think about how it would be like, sharing the experiences both would have.
(The feelings would be differently as opposed to going out with a friend instead of your significant other).
Guess I should start dating again....;):

Off the topic:

I do a lot of things that people are amazed at (I cook / bake goodies, keep my apartment somewhat clean, somewhat organized, actually write letters through snail mail, etc.).

I agree what wordsmith said.

Having diverse skills and interests in acquiring skills also makes you more interesting as a person.

[bluespoon]

yeah I agree with that too. To put it simply, skills are cool lol. Baking, sewing, etc....They're good skills to have!

[baby_gurl0604]

The difference between 2008 and 1952 is that in 1952, it was accepted as the natural order of things and there were less women in the workplace.

What's still not changed is the idea that women have to be the ones concerned with keeping the house clean and tidy and doing the majority of the work that isnt considered work at all. If you think about it, 1952 isn't that long ago, there are still people who are alive now who were alive then.

And if you think about it, people who had children in the 80s and 90s onwards who didn't teach their children rigid gender roles aren't making that much of a difference - it's only been 30 or so years. And even then, not all new parents from those decades were so progressive. So, really, people aren't as progressive as you might think. It'll be another 50-100 years before women are slightly more equal.

I think this is a really interesting discussion- I'm glad you brought this up, and I disagree with those who say that gender roles aren't a factor in today's world. As a young, 20-something, I find myself constantly questioning my choices, my goals and my priorities, and how they relate to my place as a woman in our society.

I think that for many of us who are children of the baby-boomers, there is a lot of confusion on this topic. Many of us were raised to believe that we could do anything, and "have it all". We grew up watching our mothers go to work, come home, and then take care of the house and the kids. For me, I was watching my mom do it all by herself, after my parents divorced when I was 7. My mom bought a house on her own, took us on vacations on her own and set me away to college on her own. I guess it's no wonder that I struggle in this area. I was raised by a strong, intelligent woman with progressive values, and saw that a woman does not need a man to take care of her.

Now, here I am at 25, making good money, going back for my Master's and preparing to buy my first house. I have good friends, a loving family and am in good health. And yet, I feel so much of the time that something is wrong with me, that I am inadequate or incomplete by society's standards, because I don't have a man. I haven't been in a relationship in over a year now, and marriage is not a prospect for me, at least not in the near-future. Yes, I get the "pity" looks when people ask me if I'm seeing anyone, and I answer "no". Yes, I get the subtle questioning from my grandparents about when I'm going to find myself a good man and settle down. Yes, I've even ventured into the world of online dating, with little success.

The thing is, none of those things really bother me. What bothers me more than anything, i think, is the fact that I don't mind being single at all. I like the idea of supporting myself, making my own decisions, having my own house and decorating it however I want, being able to come and go as I please. The idea of marriage, and having all that freedom taken away...well, it actually seems a little depressing to me. And I don't have an urge to have children, either. Yes, I love babies, but once they get past the age of 1, you can forget it.

So I find myself asking "what's wrong with me?!?!" a lot of the time. I don't think it's "normal" to feel this way. It seems like most women can't wait to get married- my friend had her entire wedding planned out before she ever met her husband! But I'm just not sold on it yet, I guess. They say that you're not ready to get married until you meet the right person...I guess that's true. Honestly, though,I thought I was going to marry my last boyfriend..and that relationship completely fell apart. So who knows...

Anyway, thanks for starting this discussion and allowing me to vent about some of my insecurities on here!

[bluespoon]

The thing is, none of those things really bother me. What bothers me more than anything, i think, is the fact that I don't mind being single at all. I like the idea of supporting myself, making my own decisions, having my own house and decorating it however I want, being able to come and go as I please. The idea of marriage, and having all that freedom taken away...well, it actually seems a little depressing to me. And I don't have an urge to have children, either. Yes, I love babies, but once they get past the age of 1, you can forget it.

I don't mind being single either. Actually the idea of commitment, marriage, monogamy is becoming less and less appealing to me. Maybe I've become jaded when it comes to guys, not enough relationship experience, I don't know. All I know is that for me, being single is a natural, secure, more comfortable state of being for me.

However, I haven't ruled out marriage yet, because I like the idea that you can make it what you want it to be. You can still have your freedom. I've often thought marriage isn't for me, but I really think I just don't see myself having a 'typical' marriage (or wedding). I mean along with the word marriage you always hear "tied down" "settled down"....how much more unappealing can people make it?!?! Whatever happens in my life I don't plan on describing myself as being 'tied down' or having 'settled down'. boring.

[baby_gurl0604]

I don't mind being single either. Actually the idea of commitment, marriage, monogamy is becoming less and less appealing to me. Maybe I've become jaded when it comes to guys, not enough relationship experience, I don't know. All I know is that for me, being single is a natural, secure, more comfortable state of being for me.

However, I haven't ruled out marriage yet, because I like the idea that you can make it what you want it to be. You can still have your freedom. I've often thought marriage isn't for me, but I really think I just don't see myself having a 'typical' marriage (or wedding). I mean along with the word marriage you always hear "tied down" "settled down"....how much more unappealing can people make it?!?! Whatever happens in my life I don't plan on describing myself as being 'tied down' or having 'settled down'. boring.

absolutely, I like to think of marriage as a natural partnership, not being "tied down" by a legal agreement. I guess I'll be ready or it when I meet the right person. It's not really my priority right now, though.

[HollyM]

'The thing is, none of those things really bother me. What bothers me more than anything, i think, is the fact that I don't mind being single at all. I like the idea of supporting myself, making my own decisions, having my own house and decorating it however I want, being able to come and go as I please. The idea of marriage, and having all that freedom taken away...well, it actually seems a little depressing to me. And I don't have an urge to have children, either.'

I think feeling this way is becoming more and more common. Society still has this expectation that past a certain age you should have settled though which is frustrating when its not what you really want. I used to think that there was something wrong with me to not have this massive urge for marriage/babies but something I've learnt more recently is to listen to my own instincts. Relatives usually can't help asking those questions at get togethers though and it annoys me when coupled up friends question you on why you are single and offer suggestions on how to find Mr Right when you haven't said that you are unhappy or lonely. There's plenty of like minded souls out there it's just mixing in the right circles!

[Echo]

I think for me too, what's scary is that I can live a perfectly good life if I were to choose the singledom route. I could provide for myself, look after myself, give enough attention to my dreams and hobbies, go to interesting events and parties, meet interesting people, just generally come out of my comfort zone and really push myself to the limits of my potential. But the downside is that I feel lonely, I'd need someone to talk to and cuddle up to and tell him more or less everything that's going on in my mind and to have him respond to me. You can't do too much of that with friends, otherwise you become clingy.

If I were to be in a secure long-term relationship or be married to a lovely guy, I know that I'd become too much of a homebody. I'd let my looks go and be lazier. I'd be too comfortable around my husband and our relationship would become too familiar. I'd go out less, meet fewer people. And be too happy that I wouldn't feel inspired to write anything. I'd be living in domestic bliss... which gets boring and old after a while.

But like bluespoon said, marriage is what you want it to be, so it's in our hands.

However, having said all that, I like to think that I'll be married by the time I'm 40... I know that I'm quite fertile judging my my mum, aunts, cousins etc, so there's no hurry there. Or it would be equally nice to adopt a child. I wouldn't have a 'wedding' I'd just elope to Las Vegas or Monaco ;)

I just feel so very young and I know I'll feel like this when I'm in my 30s too, so 40 is a good age to get married in my humble opinion.

[baby_gurl0604]

If I were to be in a secure long-term relationship or be married to a lovely guy, I know that I'd become too much of a homebody. I'd let my looks go and be lazier. I'd be too comfortable around my husband and our relationship would become too familiar. I'd go out less, meet fewer people. And be too happy that I wouldn't feel inspired to write anything. I'd be living in domestic bliss... which gets boring and old after a while.


However, having said all that, I like to think that I'll be married by the time I'm 40... I know that I'm quite fertile judging my my mum, aunts, cousins etc, so there's no hurry there. Or it would be equally nice to adopt a child. I wouldn't have a 'wedding' I'd just elope to Las Vegas or Monaco ;)

I just feel so very young and I know I'll feel like this when I'm in my 30s too, so 40 is a good age to get married in my humble opinion.

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I think that when it's the right time, with the right man, all these things do fall into place. So as difficult as it is, I try not to give myself a deadline for when I "should" be married by. I have pretty high standards, and have accepted the fact that it may take me longer to find someone. Whether it's in my 20's, 30's or 40's I'm ok with that. It's like when you're shopping for a dress, and you're looking for something very particular...you don't just run out and buy the first thing you see.

In terms of emotional support, etc., yes, it is difficult to be by yourself sometimes. Especially around the holidays, Valentine's Day, etc. But for me, I find a lot of comfort in having a few true friends who I can confide in and know will be there for me through whatever. The friends who you can call at 3 in the morning. Romances come and go, but if you're lucky, you'll have a few close friends that will always be a part of your life, and I think it's so important to remember that, and not neglect those relationships. I guess that's why one of the qualities I'm looking for in someone is not only a lover, but a friend :)

[wordsmith]

Family always took up the slack in terms of shoring me up with emotional support. Because I have a great family, I always felt okay about being single. I have never felt alone in the world. At times, I felt frustrated that I wasn't meeting guys who sufficiently appreciated what I had to offer, but I never felt alone.

[bluespoon]

There's plenty of like minded souls out there it's just mixing in the right circles!

yeah that's what can make it more difficult....when all your friends are married/engaged and you feel like you're the only single person for miles.

One of my close friends is getting married next year...and I've heard about people I knew from high school, other acquaintances, etc who are getting married and it's bizarre to me. I'm almost 25 and it's just weird that people with husbands and wives are in my peer group now.

But the downside is that I feel lonely, I'd need someone to talk to and cuddle up to and tell him more or less everything that's going on in my mind and to have him respond to me.

yeah the hardest part about not having someone is that it's that much more difficult when you are going through something that you know some good cuddle time would cure. I guess that's where my dog comes in :p But seriously the lack of physical affection is definitely the hardest part...

[Optimusdinkus]

http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2006/edition_06-18-2006/Good_Medicine

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4779267.stm

According to these articles that I've read, marriage is actually a really good thing for men in that it makes them live longer (through the power of touch). Men don't tend to hug each other or their female friends that often, so they suffer more from being single.

Women on the other hand can survive being single and are often as happy in singledom as in marriage.

Both genders apparently suffer mental health problems when they're with the wrong person. Overall, being happily married to the right person is the most beneficial thing of all, second to that is being happily single.

Kind of confusing and ambiguous information, but it somehow makes sense: being in a bad relationship sucks, it's best to be single and wait for the right person.
Yea.... but the right person takes work to find, and in doing so, less your relationship is a sinking ship (meaning it kills you to stay in one), it can still be beneficial in shorter spanned relationships to find out who you are (Since your constantly getting feedback and self-reflection from that person) and what you do in what situations to see if you really are ready to be yourself for the person that accepts you for that one quality, you. In my case, I'm afraid to fall in love again.

[wordsmith]

Yea.... but the right person takes work to find

I quit looking...my SO found me.

[Bocheezu]

I quit looking...my SO found me.

Which really doesn't work for guys. Sure, I'm sure there's cases where it happens, but if you're a guy and sit around waiting for it to happen, you're going to have a lonely life.

[Optimusdinkus]

I quit looking...my SO found me.
Then he did a job well done :p

[PenforPrez]

Which really doesn't work for guys. Sure, I'm sure there's cases where it happens, but if you're a guy and sit around waiting for it to happen, you're going to have a lonely life.

That's the problem I've always had. :(

[wordsmith]

Part of the reason (a big part) it doesn't work for guys is because women are by and large conditioned, for better or worse, to buy into the "pursuing makes you look desperate, needy, clingy" crap. I rarely pursued, for precisely that reason...got sick of showing interest being deemed an unattractive quality.

[Bocheezu]

Yeah, I tend to get the worst of both sides.

If I pursue, I'm a creepy stalker.

If I don't, I'm a wimp and lack confidence.

I can't win either way.

[drummer]

That's funny people are talking about this, because a couple hours ago I was watching a TV show where a girl was hitting on the guy and I was thinking, "What! That never happens."

[Echo]

Like wordsmith, I've tried several times to approach a guy directly for the purpose of getting to know him better and it always backfired. Those guys always gave me the impression that I'm a loser, so I stopped pursuing and let them come to me.

That's not to say I did nothing whatsoever. They say that a lot of the time it is the girl who initiates things and it's the guys who come to them. So that works nicely in that the girl gets to do something and the guy thinks he's done all the work.

I don't exactly send out signals - that would be too subtle and guys don't always pick it up. What I do is flirt and lightly touch his shoulders or arm and just relax and be myself. But that's only if I've spoken to the guy before and know him a little bit. I'd never do that to a stranger or to some mysterious friend of a friend, that would be too intimidating.

So guys, the best thing you can do is just talk to a girl and be interested in what she says. Don't expect anything to come out of it, but never say never.

[Millenial]

Which really doesn't work for guys. Sure, I'm sure there's cases where it happens, but if you're a guy and sit around waiting for it to happen, you're going to have a lonely life.
Ain't that the truth....

[Millenial]

Yeah, I tend to get the worst of both sides.

If I pursue, I'm a creepy stalker.

If I don't, I'm a wimp and lack confidence.

I can't win either way.
Yeah bingo. I lean more towards the passive side and get called a pansy, I am just trying to not be considered a serial rapist or killer. When I am assertive, it seems like desperation (then again the target tends to be commitophobic).

It really is just a crapshoot being at the right place and the right time. Working on your skills just improves the odds should those conditions be met.

[Millenial]

Part of the reason (a big part) it doesn't work for guys is because women are by and large conditioned, for better or worse, to buy into the "pursuing makes you look desperate, needy, clingy" crap. I rarely pursued, for precisely that reason...got sick of showing interest being deemed an unattractive quality.
That is interesting, I feel the same exact way as a guy. Maybe I am just going after "aggressive" women...

[PenforPrez]

If I pursue, I'm a creepy stalker.

Don't feel bad. Nearly every woman I talk to is already seeing somebody. :rolleyes:

[MLMaestro]

Like wordsmith, I've tried several times to approach a guy directly for the purpose of getting to know him better and it always backfired. Those guys always gave me the impression that I'm a loser, so I stopped pursuing and let them come to me.

That's not to say I did nothing whatsoever. They say that a lot of the time it is the girl who initiates things and it's the guys who come to them. So that works nicely in that the girl gets to do something and the guy thinks he's done all the work.

I don't exactly send out signals - that would be too subtle and guys don't always pick it up. What I do is flirt and lightly touch his shoulders or arm and just relax and be myself. But that's only if I've spoken to the guy before and know him a little bit. I'd never do that to a stranger or to some mysterious friend of a friend, that would be too intimidating.

So guys, the best thing you can do is just talk to a girl and be interested in what she says. Don't expect anything to come out of it, but never say never.

That's true too, but sometimes it can get kind of frustrating if everyone else around you are attached. It makes you doubt yourself sometimes.

[Echo]

I've been wondering recently: is it normal to go off sex and guys following a break up?

I'm by no means red-blooded but I have always had a drive and enjoyed looking at guys or being near sexy guys or flirting with them. But now I'm in a sort of mourning period for my past relationship, I regret that I went for a guy who had an amazing personality but wasn't attractive enough for me.

I'm feeling kind of confused. Am I feeling asexual and just not interested in sex because I was with a guy I was pretending to be attracted to and that made sex boring? Or is it to do with the winter blues? Or is it to do with mourning for the relationship we had?

Have you ever experienced loss of sex drive following any of your break-ups??

[MLMaestro]

I've been wondering recently: is it normal to go off sex and guys following a break up?

I'm by no means red-blooded but I have always had a drive and enjoyed looking at guys or being near sexy guys or flirting with them. But now I'm in a sort of mourning period for my past relationship, I regret that I went for a guy who had an amazing personality but wasn't attractive enough for me.

I'm feeling kind of confused. Am I feeling asexual and just not interested in sex because I was with a guy I was pretending to be attracted to and that made sex boring? Or is it to do with the winter blues? Or is it to do with mourning for the relationship we had?

Have you ever experienced loss of sex drive following any of your break-ups??

For me, a breakup is usually followed by a sense of loss and grief. With that, obviously the sex drive would be affected too...along with other things.

[bluespoon]

I've been wondering recently: is it normal to go off sex and guys following a break up?

I'm by no means red-blooded but I have always had a drive and enjoyed looking at guys or being near sexy guys or flirting with them. But now I'm in a sort of mourning period for my past relationship, I regret that I went for a guy who had an amazing personality but wasn't attractive enough for me.

I'm feeling kind of confused. Am I feeling asexual and just not interested in sex because I was with a guy I was pretending to be attracted to and that made sex boring? Or is it to do with the winter blues? Or is it to do with mourning for the relationship we had?

Have you ever experienced loss of sex drive following any of your break-ups??

yes...after my last relationship my sex drive went down to zero for months. I didn't have a desire to meet new guys at all, much less get physical with someone. I think it was because the relationship was so intense that when it ended I was so relieved to have some breathing room. But now I'm back to 'normal' in that I'm on the prowl again ;)

[Echo]

I'm happy for you for being on the prowl again, lol. How long exactly did it take you to get to that stage after your break-up?

[bluespoon]

well my sex drive went back to normal pretty soon, but i didnt have a desire to look for or be with someone else until maybe a year later. but that wasn't because i was in a mourning period, it was just my personal choice.

[lonestar5805]

yeah that's what can make it more difficult....when all your friends are married/engaged and you feel like you're the only single person for miles.

One of my close friends is getting married next year...and I've heard about people I knew from high school, other acquaintances, etc who are getting married and it's bizarre to me. I'm almost 25 and it's just weird that people with husbands and wives are in my peer group now.



yeah the hardest part about not having someone is that it's that much more difficult when you are going through something that you know some good cuddle time would cure. I guess that's where my dog comes in :p But seriously the lack of physical affection is definitely the hardest part...


I'm with ya Bluespoon...there's something about that physical closeness. I haven't experienced a woman's touch in way too long, it really sucks not having that in my life.