I voted for Kerry and all I got was this lousy president....

[personalegend]

I am so enraged, upset, depressed, bewildered, etc......

And I am just trying to figure out how I can live in this country the next four years and try to be proud to be an "American", when the meaning of being an American has completely changed!! If I even tried to say the pledge of allegience i might vomit. "With liberty and justice for all??" My ass!! How do you call discrimination against homosexuals in 11 states 'justice'? How is that such a thing 'moral'? And why does half the country live their entire lives based on the details of a fucking book?! A book that MAN wrote, not GOD!!

Bush is not MY president. It is amazing to me how gullible and blind people can be.....this guy lies to you, distracted you by leading our troops into war while failing to actually get the enemy that attacked us, has been failing miserably in Iraq, and you still just wag your tail and follow him like a puppy. I am baffled how someone could pull the wool over so many peoples eyes and get away with it! And the crazy shit is that so many people that still voted for Bush don't even really like him! But since we are in the middle of the war (that he started), they keep him. Amazing.
Well, I am sure many people will be regretting the decision they made yesterday as the next four years pans out....sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better.

And if Bush REALLY cares about this country as he professes, then he will make a gesture of hiring some great Democrats to his cabinet to reach out and try to unite the country. Because half the country does not want him there. I am sorry, but 3 million people of a difference is not much when 183 million people voted.....it is not like he even won 60 percent of the people. So let's see if he is all talk. What scares me most is that now he doesn't have any accountability. He is not running again (thank god) after this. So he can pretty much do what his little (and I do mean little) heart desires. If he really cares, he will be careful who he appoints....so let us see....a good president should be able to unite the people under the harshest of circumstances. They should help the people heal and look forward. Like Abraham Lincoln.....this is your first test Mr. President. Please prove those of us like me wrong, who think you incapable of it.....

[Benwa]

I couldn't believe some states had moral values as there number one concern. What does that mean any way. Isn't moral values a sort of abstract notion. Unlike actual things that exist like the economy, the war and terrorism. All of which are examples of moral alues in action.

face it the dems F-ed it up. They didn't run a candidate who was worth a shit. And the ran a pussy campaign. They were too concerned with trying hard not to upset anyone. How could they've let a draft dodging, rich boy coke head question the military record of a decorated veteran? That stupid swift boat thing hurt Kerry alot. Why didn't they shove it back in W's face? Why didn't they demand an explanation for Halliburton? Face it they blew it.

I hope amerika enjoys its shitty gov't. We've earned it. We deserve to not be able to pay for health care. We deserve to have our civil rights violated for the illusion of safety. We deserve to have our family and friend die in Iraq. And we probably deserve to be hit by another terrorist attack. We have done nothing to prevent any of these things.

[cazort]

I'll tell you one thing...America as a whole may deserve a shitty president, but there are thousands of black people in Cleveland who got off their asses, in some of the shittiest weather, and voted.

I was a poll watcher all day long, and I saw them--not a single black person left the line because it was too long, and it took a full 45 minutes during most parts of the day.

We're not the only ones adversely affected by our policies. Because of Bush, innocent civilians are killed in Iraq, and allies of the US like Israel will have to put up with increased terrorist attacks against their innocent civilians, because of anti-US sentiment. Iraqis will have to deal with civil disorder. It's also important to remember that Bush selectively dicks over the citizens. I.e. black people get f*cked, among others. The city of Cleveland, my city, gets f*cked. It's wrong.

I actually have a plan, as a citizen, to change things without resorting to influencing the political process. I am developing a system called "Cleveland Merit" that is designed to get people working for each other and help combat the terrible unemployment and urban decline, and start producing real goods that they can then start exporting to other parts of the country. I initially planned to have it up and running in a year, but I am going to try to get it going in a couple months, now that B*sh has been elected...it's urgent.

We must remember--there are things we can do.

[personalegend]

Way to go Cazort! That is awesome. Yea, a bunch of my friends and I are trying to figure out ways we can get more involved than we have been and get some good organizations going. Feels pointless to just scream and shout now since it is over. Time to make the change on our own. THat is the only way I can even fathom Mr. B*sh in the White House another four years. God knows he ain't gonna protect the environment, fight for gay rights, help unemployment, or be an advocate of peace. So it is up to us.....

[dazed]

I spent this entire afternoon talking to friends about how this puppet Bush could win again Kerry. We talked about Bush's awful policies to his mannerisms and everything in between. I cannot talk anymore about this but what I can do is move on and possibly get other people to work on improving the democrats plans and marketing strategies. i don't know how i'm going to do this or if i will...but i'd certainly like to. that is all.

[Kerowyn]

I was thinking too of starting something along the lines of what Cazort was doing. Maybe doing something or starting something to convince the younger gen how important it is to vote. They said in this election the amount of young voters was only 17%, the same amount it was last time. I think that's kinda sad but I can also understand the disillusionment the ones that actually did vote are feeling for the whole process, especially with all this unfair or rigged election talk going on.

[Crimson King II]

There is NO talk of an unfair or rigged election. That's sour grapes. Kerry knew that, and he said that in his speech. This is a clear victory, a clean one, and we should be proud democracy still works. This is a referendum on Bush...America gave him a huge win and the first majority for ANY president since 1988. That's a far greater win than any of Clinton's or than his own in 2000.

Regardless of party, this is a good week to be an American.

[Crimson King II]

And another thing, Kerowyn...one thing to encourage young voters is not to be so condescending to them. It's only sad for you that they made up 17% because Kerry lost. Well guess what...more young people turned out this year than in any election since the 60s. The only problem was that every other age group was excited too. Also, the "Young Vote" does not represent overwhelming Kerry support. Voters ages 18-24 roughly split between the two...that's a huge statement for Bush. Don't take these young voters for granted, and don't assume they'll vote the way you want them too. They showed they can be inspired, and they showed they can think for themselves.

[libscigrl]

Originally posted by Crimson King II
Regardless of party, this is a good week to be an American.

I think I'm going to puke now. Buh bye, separation of church & state. Buh bye equality, freedom of religion, respect for individual differences. Buh bye, already paltry budgets for libraries and social services (at least the ones that aren't tied to religious organizations).

Dems, we seriously need to look at how we can reconcile our values of fairness and respect for differences with the strategies that are most effective. Those who are willing to disregard the beliefs, views, and lifestyles of others in favor of pushing their own onto everyone else, are winning. Nevermind the cabernet to drown my sorrows, bring on the pepto because I am seriously sick.

[Skyblade]

They said in this election the amount of young voters was only 17%

Well, another way to look at it I guess is that more people registered overall, so there was probably at least a larger number of younger voters going to the polls.

[Crimson King II]

Well.....51%+ disagree with you.

And I'm far more comfortable in a nation where the people decide, rather than a defeated minority refusing to give up power...

[WeirdBrake]

I'm with CK. Kerry lost, Bush won, time to get on with life.

[paiger81]

Originally posted by libscigrl

Those who are willing to disregard the beliefs, views, and lifestyles of others in favor of pushing their own onto everyone else, are winning.

Excuse me, but no. Last time I checked we still have Congress and we still have a Senate. Furthermore, last time I looked not every Republican is an anti-homosexual, psychotic Christian. Last time I checked, 2 of my closest friends are gay, yes I am Catholic but support gay rights & am pro-choice.

Secondly, from what I'm seeing on the board, people are upset and willing to actually get together and work on projects to help there communities. Would y'all have done this if Kerry was elected? Or would y'all just expect that he would have done it himself, and quite possibly be upset at the end of his term, if whatever he promised did not come to fruition?

It looks like people might actually become proactive, and that might be a damn good thing.

[Skyblade]

Wow, I want to be quoted in someone else's signature

[and1grad]

But its clear that the majority of the Republican vote was from anti-gay voters. YOU make up part of a minority. The two issues that carried the Repub vote were terrorism and homosexuality. The funny part, to me, is that all these states that voted so convincingly against homosexuality are the ones that are barely even exposed to it. While the ones that are, voted blue. Interesting.

[Skyblade]

People are afraid of the unknown

[and1grad]

Nowadays, there's no reason not to know.

[paiger81]

I do see your point on that issue, hell, he won me over on the terrorist issues

Not to steal the thread, but do you think Bush will actually put some Dems on his cabinet? I'm on the fence. I am hoping he will and think that the media attention on it may make him pull some in, but I don't know if he wil......

[Skyblade]

But if you aren't exposed to it, people are afraid of it. I hate to take an example from a reality show. But if you've watched this season of the Real World, in the beginning MJ was afraid of Willie and Karamo because they were gay, but once he got to know them he realized they were cool people and that homosexuals aren't so different or uncomfortable to be around as he thought.
I think a lot of people are more sympathetic to a lifestyle or a situation once they befriend or respect someone that participates in that lifestyle or is in that situation.

[wordsmith]

That's very true, Skyblade, but it doesn't matter in the least if their prejudices prevent them from ever wanting to get to know someone who is "different."

[libscigrl]

Originally posted by paiger81
Excuse me, but no. Last time I checked we still have Congress and we still have a Senate. Furthermore, last time I looked not every Republican is an anti-homosexual, psychotic Christian. Last time I checked, 2 of my closest friends are gay, yes I am Catholic but support gay rights & am pro-choice.

Secondly, from what I'm seeing on the board, people are upset and willing to actually get together and work on projects to help there communities. Would y'all have done this if Kerry was elected? Or would y'all just expect that he would have done it himself, and quite possibly be upset at the end of his term, if whatever he promised did not come to fruition?

It looks like people might actually become proactive, and that might be a damn good thing.

While not every Republican is an anti-homosexual, psychotic, pro-life Christian, my understanding is that the voters who really pushed Bush over the edge toward winning were the evangelical Christians and that the deciding factor was "values." Hence my previous statement about the disregard for others beliefs, etc.

I will agree though that this election result COULD end up being the better one in the end, if it gets us fired up enough to counterbalance all the damage that's going to be done in the next 4 yrs. And I was a little afraid that if Kerry won, my party might sit back into complacency. I just hope the damage isn't too extensive...

[and1grad]

You see, I just dont buy that. I think thats more of a well i'm ignorant, sorry type excuse for them. I know ONE gay person. I didnt even know the person was gay until I had known for 2 years. I had NO reason to fear gay people b4 that. There is NO LOGICAL reason...in fact, throw out the word logical...there's just no reason to fear gay people. Its stupid. I dont mean any of this as an attack on you...i'm just so sick of that excuse.

I dont know what Bush will do. Everybody keeps saying they voted for Bush b/c they wanted to go with what they know. Well, then what do you know? (Not YOU specifically) I have NO idea what he's gonna do. He put black people on his cabinet, granted they have next to no sense of the black community but they're black. He may put Dems like that raving loon who supported him at the RNC. I just dont know.

[libscigrl]

Originally posted by paiger81
I do see your point on that issue, hell, he won me over on the terrorist issues

Not to steal the thread, but do you think Bush will actually put some Dems on his cabinet? I'm on the fence. I am hoping he will and think that the media attention on it may make him pull some in, but I don't know if he wil......

I feel just the opposite on the terrorist issues. I feel so much less safe with him as president. If IRAQ had attacked us, or the WMD's had actually been there, I'd feel very different. A president should defend us and not ask for permission when it is truly justified. But it was a pre-emptive war without true justification and I feel that sets a very scary precedent. The sig line taken from Benwa comes to mind, "Empires rise and fall, much like an erection." One day, whether or not our current level of power is truly diminished, we will need help. And the world is going to give us a big, collective "f**** you" if we keep acting like a beligerant, righteous, bullying hall monitor.

As for Bush appointing some Dems to his cabinet, I'd like to think he does. I believe he's too interested in being divisive to really care about fairness or reaching out, but I would rather be surprised than right on that one. Heck, I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than right about everything I believe about Bush.

[personalegend]

If Bush REALLY wants to unite the country he will appoint some dems to his cabinet. I am sorry, but winning by 3 million people is not huge. A victory? yes. but 48% plus in this country disagree with him and his policies. So this is a chance for him to show us what he is made of.....he now has no accountability so he can do whatever the fuck he wants. He will not be re-elected. But if he TRULY cares about being a "uniter not a divider" he will think wisely about this cabinet. This move will be looked at closely. And it will really signify if he really cares about this country or just being president and the power to move the country more to the right.

[Crimson King II]

First, he has a Dem on the cabinet now...you "enlightened ones" apparently don't realize that. I'm not telling you who it is...find it yourself, then stop criticizing what you clearly don't know about.

Second, he won with a majority. Clinton never did that, yet he only appointed one Rep. to his cabinet. Bush has the vote, he has the Congress, and if he appoints all Republicans, well, certainly you can see why that would be his prerogative.

Third, Tim Russert made a great point Wednesday. The dems need to realize that they can't play splits on the gay marriage issue. They lost, in part, because they were willing to say if you vote against gay marriage, then you are anti-gay and homophobic or both, rather than being where the middle and majority of people are (by a 70-30 split!!!) which is to say we may not have a problem with gay people, but we are traditional people and we like the concept of marriage where it is, which is with the states.

Rant and rail on that all you want...but Rove put Bush with the heavy majority position on every socio-cultural issue....and the people chose that, while the Dems never even saw their way to the playing field on those issues.

It's not that those people are scared, or evil, or stupid, or phobic. But you lost because you were willing to say that to them, and they don't like being condescended to, and they (who make up 51+% think the same about you...

But if the Dems want to keep their eyes closed......I'm happy to win in 2008, and 2012, and 2016...

[Deadend]

There was a thing on the BBC here about how massively overexaduated the terrorist threat is.

How poloticians are pushing that adjenda because it commands much more attention then more boring issues like the car fuel economy, trade policies, forest usage, and generally all the things that really effect the economy.

Basically the thrust was that most people's life in the middle class is really good right now. That in the past poloticians could get elected by promising us our dreams. Now they show us horrible nightmares, and promise to protect us from those.

The politics of fear.

[Crimson King II]

And no one's attacking Ontario, are they??? Go stand in Fallujah with an American Flag in your hand...see how real it is then...

[personalegend]

CK--we are talking about the NEW cabinet. Bush wanted to get re-elected last time. He is not stupid. Especially since he didn't really win last time. He was smart enough to try to make his cabinet something people would like. But now since he does not need to be re-elected, we are waiting to see what he does. Because I am sorry, you keep bringing up 51%, but that is SO not a huge majority!! Having 48-49% of the population hate you and your policies, means that he has a lot of work to do if he really cares about bringing everyone together.

Secondly, how can you tell me that these people that banned gay marriage are not discriminating against gay people? If the "sanctity" of marriage is not good enough for gay people, then there is obviously something wrong with gay people in their eyes.....and someone made a very good point yesterday: if those of us on the coast are most threatened by terrorist attacks (NY, SF, and LA are the most threatened cities), and NY HAD the biggest terrorist attack (and I was there when it happened), and we have the largest number of gay people (I have tons of gay friends), then how come a lot of us voted blue?? I think ignorance and fear of homosexuality and terrorism drove a lot of the red votes IF they really voted based on "Moral Values" as many did. Voting based on Bush's economic plan? I disagree with you but fine. Voting based on his foreign policy? I disagree with you but fine. Voting based on your happiness with his last term? Most people didn't , but fine.
It is the voting of moral values that irks me....because it is SO hypocritical. These people need to look the word 'moral' up in the dictionary.

[and1grad]

Ok CK,
I'll grant you that Repubs may have voted against the gay marriage b/c they were being labeled as something they're not. But isnt that voting out of spite, which is something you repeated told us we shouldnt do? To be honest with you, I've never called the "red" party stupid, BUT I have no choice but to believe that they vote against gay marriage out of fear. I get the "tradition" angle but I fail to see the harm in letting gay people marry. So I'm not gonna go as far as to say they fear gay people as much as they fear the change. But why? Is it really fair to say that its only the Dems keeping their eyes closed? I think a lot of eye-opening and REAL discussion needs to be done. We shouldnt be just happy to see our party win as we should be to see this country a little more united.

[Crimson King II]

It's not a huge majority. But the 48% minority has no claim on the cabinet or the agenda. A 51% win is the largest percentage since 1988! No one claimed Bush I or Dole had a claim on Clinton's cabinet or agenda either. This Dem party SURE doesn't.

Also...the gay marriage issue isn't 51-48...it's more like 65-35...it's part of why Bush won. Call it discrimination, fear, phobic.....but Russert and Matthews will tell you these aren't bad people, they're traditional, and they don't like being condescended to and painted to be evil. They don't just vote that way because they're "ignorant and afraid." But keep thinking that....I'll take a majority forever if you're going to hand it to us.

[Deadend]

Fallujah is in the continental united states. Anyways, that's not terrorism, that's insurgency fighters. Had Iraq not been invaded, there would not have been any problems there. I'm not saying their cause is more just, but you can't go around labeling anything that fights americans as "terrorism" simply because it suits your political objectives.

Furthermore, look, I know that Kanasas city is in Missouri, but I'm pretty sure that New York city is not in Oklahoma.

Lastly I was pointing out the politics. I also said that that this point was make here in the UK (re: "BBC"), not back home in Canada. This is the country that's been dealing with the IRA since time and memorial. If terrorism is exadurated here, it sure as hell is exadurated stateside.

[Crimson King II]

Insurgents....terrorists....you say tomato....