Are we a generation?

[corrie3000]

Just thinking about this, per the American Dream thread - are we (those of us in our twenties - either early, mid, or late) a generation? Those in Generation X (1960-somethign to 1975) are past us, and there's a newer generation under us, and heck, there's the Baby Boomer Generation. I know at some point someone (don't remember who) cleverly refferd to us as "Generation Y" but I don't technically agree. Personally, I think that Generation X was the last "generation" that could really be bucketed, because society has grown so pluralistic.

Then again, I could be talking out of my butt. However, just wanted to ask?

[Skyblade]

I've heard the Gen Y thing, I've also heard our generation referred to as "Echo Boom" since we are the children of the baby boomers.

[corrie3000]

"Echo Boom" is actually kind of cute.


Like the name of a band, that sings 80s songs ;)

[tina1979]

I have to say Echo Boom sounds alot more interesting than "Y". Thats just boring

[yankeeyosh]

Well, it depends...some people call us (those in their 20s), for the most part, all Gen-X, some call half of us X and half of us "Y", or "Millennials", and others call most of us "Y".

William Strauss and Neil Howe divide "X" and "Millennials" at the 1981-1982 boundary, because 1982 demarcates the HS class of 2000, a natural boundary, and because the social atmosphere of the formative years supposedly was significantly different from those older. They describe Millennials as a rather conservative, "heroic" type of generation, similar to the GI gen born in the first quarter of the 20th century.

Carolyn Martin and Bruce Tulgan say that Gen-"Y" starts in 1978 and ends in 1986 or so...they describe "Y" as a confident, achieving bunch who admires teamwork and their elders and is willing to go the extra mile to do a good job...and like the Howe/Strauss definition, are most like their grandparents. I am in most agreement with this starting point.

Others define "Y" or the "Echo Boom" as 1977 onwards. This year is chosen simply because birth rates inevitably started to increase again as the Boom generation reached child-bearing age, but gave no other reason.

I personally cannot consider anyone significantly older than me (born in 78) as part of my generation, and I am rather satisfied with me being in the first cohort of Generation "Y". I used to study this stuff quite a bit, actually, and I am rather convinced. Some reasons are that (a) 1978 marks the college class of 2000...the first class of the millennium (I ***DON'T*** want to hear from those '01ers, thank you ;) ), which in my opinion is more important nowadays than high school, (b) 1978 cohorts were really the first cohort to not reached adult age (18)when the internet blossomed, and (c) we were the first cohort to have been fully educated in the aftermath of "A Nation at Risk", which shook up the education world in 1983 and introduced many new reforms.

I am NOT saying that people older than me have nothing in common with me; however, we have to mark the line at some point, and I think that 77-78 is a good cutoff.

[nxn]

I consider if you were between the ages of 15-20 in the mid 90s you're considered as a ' GEN-X ' and if you were 15-20 between 1998-2001 I think you considered as a ' GEN-Y '

I define Gen-X as pretty much a generation that became more socially, polically and generally more aware of the world and took action upon this.

Gen-Y I think is pretty much a result of the Internet and is pretty much the next evolution of Gen-X. If you were around 15-20 during the late 90s you were the first generation to really take hold of the internet revolution. Gen-Y is pretty much a generation defined by the internet, mobile communications, electronics, etc.

[corrie3000]

That's funny, because I was born in '76, mr.c3k was born in '77. While I feel SOME stuff in common to Generation X - say those born between '72 - 76, I do not at all to those born in the late 60s.

However, interstingly as well, my Project Manager, who just turned 25 doesn't understand why she and I have such a Pop Culture "Generation Gap" - I remember 1980 - 1984 and make references to stuff all the time, that she doesn't know about.
Wierd huh?

[Sagiquarius]

I never thought of us as a Generation per se. Certainly not Generation X becuase I'm 25 and when I remember them having that classification when I was in my mid-teens. I'm pretty sure that passed us by. Mention was made of Gen -X having been:

...generally more aware of the world and took action upon this.

I thought the perception was that they were pretty much lost. Lacking in motivation or direction the "X" designation would fit because they had yet to make any kind of impact on the world.

When I think of Gen-X I think of the neo-rock bands of the 90s like Nirvana and Smashing Pumpkins and that whole "whatever" attitude that seemed so pervasive then.

[yankeeyosh]

Originally posted by corrie3000
That's funny, because I was born in '76, mr.c3k was born in '77. While I feel SOME stuff in common to Generation X - say those born between '72 - 76, I do not at all to those born in the late 60s.

However, interstingly as well, my Project Manager, who just turned 25 doesn't understand why she and I have such a Pop Culture "Generation Gap" - I remember 1980 - 1984 and make references to stuff all the time, that she doesn't know about.
Wierd huh?

Yeah, I notice that seems to be very common...seems there's some kind of cultural gap between people born in the mid 70s and late 70s. I hear of people who are born in '76, '77 shocked that people just a couple years younger have no idea what they're talking about when they reference pop culture from their youth...and I believe it...a good chunk of people my age (born in 78) have no clue about pop culture before MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice (maybe that's why we're mesed up? ;) ).

[abefroman]

This is a fun debate that has been going on for years.

I think of the demarcation in terms of MTV - there's a cultural tidal wave for you that forms a common bond.

If you remember MTV's 1st year on the air (80 or 81?), from when you were a kid to when you were a pre-teen, I think of that as 'X'.

Going by that it would make you roughly from 25 to 35 today.

Not sure this one will ever be made 'official' to the extent that baby boomers' tagged ages are (most commonly excepted birthdates there is 1946-1964)

[kimmer23]

i've read in a few places where they have labeled gen x'ers from 1968ish-1980.

i was about 3 when MTV came on the air. i guess the next generation after us wont remember a time when there wasnt any internet.

[yankeeyosh]

Originally posted by abefroman
This is a fun debate that has been going on for years.


If you remember MTV's 1st year on the air (80 or 81?), from when you were a kid to when you were a pre-teen, I think of that as 'X'.



Do you mean remember the year itself or MTV during those times. I remember 81 vaguely, and a couple of memories of 80 dance in my head, but pop-culture wise, I don't know anything except that I had this strange 3-year old infatuation with disco when it was going out of style.

My first pop culture memory that I can clearly remember was ET, which I saw in the theater when I was 4.

[Sagiquarius]

Originally posted by yankeeyosh


Do you mean remember the year itself or MTV during those times. I remember 81 vaguely, and a couple of memories of 80 dance in my head, but pop-culture wise, I don't know anything except that I had this strange 3-year old infatuation with disco when it was going out of style.

My first pop culture memory that I can clearly remember was ET, which I saw in the theater when I was 4.

I don't remember a whole lot from the 80s either. My first taste of pop culture...the Culture Club video for Karma Chameleon. I swear to you all that Boy George honestly and truly scared me. I remember thinking WHAT the hell is he??

[MetFanL]

The "cut-off" for Gen X varies... Some people put it at 75, some at 77, some at 80. I think the latest thing I heard was that if you never had school without computers, you are the beginning of Gen Y.

I think I relate to both b/c I'm on the cusp...

[coll214]

I'm right on the edge there being born in '79, but i'd have to say i remember some things from the early 80's... and my mother does say i was obsessed w/ Blondie at about 2 :D.

[yankeeyosh]

Originally posted by Sagiquarius


I don't remember a whole lot from the 80s either. My first taste of pop culture...the Culture Club video for Karma Chameleon. I swear to you all that Boy George honestly and truly scared me. I remember thinking WHAT the hell is he??

Took me a while to figure that out too...when I was six I was like ummmmmmmmm.........

[cheshrcarol]

My understanding was that technically Gen Xers were the kids of Boomers. I was born in 78 and consider myself a Gen Xer (although since I was 3 at the time, I do not remember the start of MTV). However, my brother is almost 6 years younger than me and definitely a Gen Y.

I saw a piece on Gen Y on Dateline (or something similar) and they talked about Gen Y and the whole attitude of team and group work. They said most Yers were brought up in environments that rewarded everyone for participating, not just excelling. They also said that due to this, most gen Yers didn't know what they were good at and had difficulty transitioning to a work environment where they expected constant (and positive) feedback. I DEFINITELY don't consider myself a part of this generation. The concepts they were discussing on the program were completely foreign to me.

[kimmer23]

yeah i feel like i kinda can go on both too. i was born in 78 also.

[The Stranger]

I was born in '79, and I've always considered myself to be a member of Generation X, though I'm seeing more and more timelines that claim that I'm Gen-Y. In terms of the stereotypical philosophy and mindsets assocated with these generations, I'm X all the way.

When I was in high school, they could never get us to sell anything to raise money for...um...well, for something related to the school, but I have no idea what, as I never sold anything. Sports or events or something like that. Anyway, we seemed to be the last batch of students that they had problems with--students in the lower grades took to the task enthusiastically. That was when I first noticed the difference between us and them; and the descriptions of Gen Y bore this out. More involved, optimistic, annoyingly happy, etc. (I don't mean to make generalizations, I'm just speaking about trends.)

[cheshrcarol]

I just realized another thing I consider to be a "generational gap" between X and Y. The way you type. I literally can not type and use single letters to replace whole words, like saying, "r u @work?" I have to type whole words. Maybe my job is part of that because I do a lot of writing and e-mail correspondance, and it would look unprofessional if I accidentally started doing that.

[MetFanL]

Very true, carol. the only thing I ever appreviate is very (v.) and that's more of a Bridget thing...

I never understood the text message thing, either. Just call them...

[yankeeyosh]

I've heard that too as a delineation of generations. Once in a while I use "r" and "u", but if I do, I actually do it thinking about it rather than "naturally".

[KnowingBurns]

Originally posted by MetFanL

I never understood the text message thing, either. Just call them...

That one really bothers me. I HATE typing in names and such on my phone b/c it is frustrating, so what do I want with a program that forces me to reduce a 26-letter alphabet to a 10-digit keypad for communicating with someone. . . when I am holding a telephone?

[wordsmith]

Originally posted by cheshrcarol
My understanding was that technically Gen Xers were the kids of Boomers. I was born in 78 and consider myself a Gen Xer (although since I was 3 at the time, I do not remember the start of MTV). However, my brother is almost 6 years younger than me and definitely a Gen Y.

I saw a piece on Gen Y on Dateline (or something similar) and they talked about Gen Y and the whole attitude of team and group work. They said most Yers were brought up in environments that rewarded everyone for participating, not just excelling. They also said that due to this, most gen Yers didn't know what they were good at and had difficulty transitioning to a work environment where they expected constant (and positive) feedback. I DEFINITELY don't consider myself a part of this generation. The concepts they were discussing on the program were completely foreign to me.

I'm with carol. I consider myself Gen X (b. 1977). My sister was born six years later in 1983, and the difference in the sort of world and norms that formed who we are are way wider than you would think 6 years would allow for. But consider the differences in the world when a now-27-year old was coming of age, and a now-21-year old.

The technological stuff is MASSIVE. When I was in college (Fall '95- Spring '99), the internet existed, but had not yet EXPLODED with the young population as an entertainment method. I cringe to think of what it would have done to my study habits had I known of messageboards and such at the time. I didn't have my own computer in my room, and our dorm was considered cutting-edge because it had a computer lab. E-mail was a relatively new, novel thing, not a taken-for-granted, obvious form of communication. Academically, technology wasn't that big yet, either. We had to have special sessions and mini-courses on even using the internet as a research tool, and at that point, most of our academic research HAD to come from non-online sources. I had one professor who INSISTED we turn in homework and papers via e-mail, and everyone thought that was kind of weird and that he was a techie oddball. And nobody carried cell phones, at least not routinely. We had regular wall-phones in the rooms, and had long-distance codes and had to pay our phone bills on campus.

My sister is now a college student. She never goes to their library, probably doesn't even know how to go about finding an actual printed primary source. She has entire courses that are conducted online, and has a more elaborate personal computer in her room than the college labs had when I was a student. She keeps in touch with most everyone she knows, from her academic advisor, to her best friend who is in school 200 miles away, via IM and e-mail. She is never without her cell phone and is pretty much on it constantly (and count me as another one who DOES NOT UNDERSTAND text messaging at all). In fact, her college's dorms don't even come equipped with standard issue phones, because it's so assumed that everyone will have a cell. If you want a landline, you have to bring your own phone to plug in.

It's weird that there's such a difference in only six years.

I also think that what carol said, about the emphasis now being on group work and collaboration, and participation being emphasized rather than exceeding academic expectations. I feel all crochety and old and "back in my day," when I say it, but my sister's college experience seems thus far (and she's a junior at a highly selective private college) to be kind of the equivalent to what I remember high school being like. Lots of group work, not very high academic expectations, and lots of patting on the back and "hey, 'A' for effort!" going on.

NOT that I'm opposed to positive feedback and affirmation in an academic setting...but high achievement and serious scholarship still has a place. Just trying really hard IS commendable, but ultimately, I feel very strongly that your grades should represent what you actually produce, learn, gain. Her school has traditionally been known as a groundbreaker, and its students high-achieving, and I've been astounded by how relaxed the academic expectations seem to have gotten. She's a bright girl, but she, and others like her, aren't really being challenged...and they don't seem to be the most motivated bunch when it's not demanded.

I really do think it's more Gen Y to be really pretty directionless about what to do after schooling than it is Gen X. Funny that Gen X is the so-called "slacker" generation...because most of my classmates had a set plan (maybe not one that got stuck to in the end, but a plan, nonetheless) for after graduation. When I ask the kids my sister lives with what their plans are, they just kinda shrug and look mystefied. Which makes me predict that these boards are only gonna get MORE populated in the next few years...

[shimmer728]

I don't get text messaging, either. I don't even know how to send them from my phone, though I've gotten text messages from other users--for a fee. It seems like a bit of a waste.

[yankeeyosh]

I'm with carol. I consider myself Gen X (b. 1977). My sister was born six years later in 1983, and the difference in the sort of world and norms that formed who we are are way wider than you would think 6 years would allow for. But consider the differences in the world when a now-27-year old was coming of age, and a now-21-year old.

This may be repeating myself, but I think the wide generation gap can be readily seen in a period far less than six years.


The technological stuff is MASSIVE. When I was in college (Fall '95- Spring '99), the internet existed, but had not yet EXPLODED with the young population as an entertainment method.

I graduated HS in '96, and I am fairly certain when I says that our class was the first class in which the majority were comfortable with the internet by the time we even SET FOOT on a college campus. I remember people saying that our class was so amazing with computers...a significant number of people even a couple of years older didn't even know how to turn on a computer, and our class was so proficient that we could teach the lab computer assistants a thing or two. On the other hand, as I will say later, there was still a significant minority that wasn't so "fortunate".


I cringe to think of what it would have done to my study habits had I known of messageboards and such at the time. I didn't have my own computer in my room, and our dorm was considered cutting-edge because it had a computer lab.

I do agree...not everyone actually had a computer. Oftentimes, people were lining up to use my computer to type out stuff.



E-mail was a relatively new, novel thing, not a taken-for-granted, obvious form of communication. Academically, technology wasn't that big yet, either. We had to have special sessions and mini-courses on even using the internet as a research tool, and at that point, most of our academic research HAD to come from non-online sources. I had one professor who INSISTED we turn in homework and papers via e-mail, and everyone thought that was kind of weird and that he was a techie oddball.

I have a hard time believing that people from my class would think a prof who insisted on turning in homework/papers via e-mail would be considered as an "oddball".


And nobody carried cell phones, at least not routinely. We had regular wall-phones in the rooms, and had long-distance codes and had to pay our phone bills on campus.


Yeah, same here...although by my senior year cells were getting way big.


My sister is now a college student. She never goes to their library, probably doesn't even know how to go about finding an actual printed primary source. She has entire courses that are conducted online, and has a more elaborate personal computer in her room than the college labs had when I was a student.

I never had an online course, although some were offered around my senior year.


She keeps in touch with most everyone she knows, from her academic advisor, to her best friend who is in school 200 miles away, via IM and e-mail. She is never without her cell phone and is pretty much on it constantly (and count me as another one who DOES NOT UNDERSTAND text messaging at all). In fact, her college's dorms don't even come equipped with standard issue phones, because it's so assumed that everyone will have a cell. If you want a landline, you have to bring your own phone to plug in.

See above.


It's weird that there's such a difference in only six years.



I'll stand by my convictions that it's even less than that...to some degree, it's only a one or two year difference.


I also think that what carol said, about the emphasis now being on group work and collaboration, and participation being emphasized rather than exceeding academic expectations. I feel all crochety and old and "back in my day," when I say it, but my sister's college experience seems thus far (and she's a junior at a highly selective private college) to be kind of the equivalent to what I remember high school being like. Lots of group work, not very high academic expectations, and lots of patting on the back and "hey, 'A' for effort!" going on.

I have to respectfully disagree, because I think the competition is getting fiercer. If that's not the case, then why does your average State U student have 20 AP credits coming in?



NOT that I'm opposed to positive feedback and affirmation in an academic setting...but high achievement and serious scholarship still has a place. Just trying really hard IS commendable, but ultimately, I feel very strongly that your grades should represent what you actually produce, learn, gain. Her school has traditionally been known as a groundbreaker, and its students high-achieving, and I've been astounded by how relaxed the academic expectations seem to have gotten. She's a bright girl, but she, and others like her, aren't really being challenged...and they don't seem to be the most motivated bunch when it's not demanded.

Yup, yup...and one of the trademarks of Gen-"Y" is they actually WANT do be challenged...and if they don't get challenged they get bored. ..hence what these colleges are doing is backfiring on them.


I really do think it's more Gen Y to be really pretty directionless about what to do after schooling than it is Gen X. Funny that Gen X is the so-called "slacker" generation...because most of my classmates had a set plan (maybe not one that got stuck to in the end, but a plan, nonetheless) for after graduation. When I ask the kids my sister lives with what their plans are, they just kinda shrug and look mystefied. Which makes me predict that these boards are only gonna get MORE populated in the next few years... [/B]

Quite surprised on this end...

I actually feel from reading this that YOU match the sterotypical Gen-"Yer" and your sister and friends are the "Xers". I am surprised that your sister's school and the students seem to be rather lackadaisical...because it's very contrary to what the pundits say. I don't know if this will carry into the workforce; I think that if employers do have high expectations and are demanding, the true colors of your sister's generation will seep through.

[wordsmith]

Originally posted by yankeeyosh

I graduated HS in '96, and I am fairly certain when I says that our class was the first class in which the majority were comfortable with the internet by the time we even SET FOOT on a college campus. I remember people saying that our class was so amazing with computers...a significant number of people even a couple of years older didn't even know how to turn on a computer, and our class was so proficient that we could teach the lab computer assistants a thing or two. On the other hand, as I will say later, there was still a significant minority that wasn't so "fortunate".

Yeah, not the case where I was a high schooler, at all, and I graduated only a year before you did. At the point at which I graduated from h.s., typing classes were still the only computer curriculum offered, and internet at home wasn't that widespread here in 1995. It's rural, ag/industrial blue-collar, though. More affluent, urban areas were probably sociologically ahead in this area. Don't know that we were underprivileged, but the popularity of internet at home probably hit here later than it did urban/suburban areas. And our schools are more underfunded, so that takes care of the teaching portion of things.


Originally posted by yankeeyosh

I do agree...not everyone actually had a computer. Oftentimes, people were lining up to use my computer to type out stuff.

Yup. I never did have a computer, and I got my degree in English, which meant about a dozen papers a semester.


Originally posted by yankeeyosh
I have a hard time believing that people from my class would think a prof who insisted on turning in homework/papers via e-mail would be considered as an "oddball".

Seriously, he was the only instructor who required this, so it was odd. It was in no way, shape, or form commonplace. Hard copies were the norm. And most instructors were biased against online class discussion, because it was a small private liberal arts college that prided itself on individual attention and small class size...a class of 10 people sitting and discussing whatever you were studying was a strong selling point, and I think depersonalizing the process by making everything doable from behind a computer screen undermined this philosophy.



Originally posted by yankeeyosh
Yeah, same here...although by my senior year cells were getting way big.

I honestly didn't start noticing them until I'd been out for a year or so (again, not in an urban area, which makes a difference). I studied abroad as a freshman and sophomore, in Ireland, and they were way ahead of where we were at the time as far as the ubiquitousness of "mobiles." I remember it was super noticeable, because they were SO much more "everywhere" then they were at home. This would have been '96 and '97.


Originally posted by yankeeyosh I'll stand by my convictions that it's even less than that...to some degree, it's only a one or two year difference.

Maybe, but it seems like my brothers (two years my junior) and I have very comparable experiences when it comes to this, and my sister, who was four years after them, is where the real disconnect comes in. I feel very much of the same generation as my brothers.



Originally posted by yankeeyosh I have to respectfully disagree, because I think the competition is getting fiercer. If that's not the case, then why does your average State U student have 20 AP credits coming in?

I think it might be a regional thing (remember, I'm coming from a region of underfunded rural schools, which are getting completely screwed in regard to federal funding thanks to recent legislation, and therefore can really only afford to hire subpar educators in many cases), and I can only speak for the local norms. But I do a fair amount of education reporting for my job, and competition may be getting fiercer, but I think expectations as a whole have gone down a notch. I don't think that expectations are nearly as stringent as they were ten, even five years ago. I do a bit with student newspapers, and it's most glaringly evident in students' (both college and high school) writing. It's really gone so downhill, and educators seem to turn a blind eye to the fact that more and more students simply have not obtained the skills to write at a sophisticated level. And so the standards go down. Students who come into college with 20 AP credits really should be able to write in a more sophisticated manner than I'm seeing, consistently. Even the honors students have writing fraught with errors, colloquialisms, and frequently have a surprisingly juvenile manner of writing. It's unsurprising, however, since they were weaned on "lol's," "brb's," and "ttyl's." 'Netiquette doesn't exactly breed sophisticated writing, and that's where people my sister's age have probably done the majority of their nonclassroom writing.

As far as AP demands go, one of my friends recently taught an AP history course at the local high school, and to be honest, the curriculum wasn't as challenging as what was offered when I attended, well before the district even offered AP coursework. So I also think that AP standards have decreased, or you WOULDN'T have every other student coming in with a laundry list of them. It would truly be the earmark of a student who went above and beyond, as intended. I stand by MY conviction that educational standards have gone down, at least here. It's been reflected in regional testing scores, as well. Which in turn create budget slashes and perpetuate the vicious cycle.

Originally posted by yankeeyosh Quite surprised on this end...

I actually feel from reading this that YOU match the sterotypical Gen-"Yer" and your sister and friends are the "Xers". I am surprised that your sister's school and the students seem to be rather lackadaisical...because it's very contrary to what the pundits say. I don't know if this will carry into the workforce; I think that if employers do have high expectations and are demanding, the true colors of your sister's generation will seep through.

It was pretty surprising to me, too, considering the reputation of the school, AND the fact that NOT all the students there are products of low-performing underfunded rural high schools. I thought it would be more demanding, apparently not. I'm sure if the high expectations are there, when they enter the workforce, they'll step up to the plate. But I think it will be a shock.

I feel like Gen X got a bad slacker, "Reality Bites" rap, since the bulk of my college classmates were actually VERY focused and high achieving in the end. Maybe my sister's gen. will come around, too.

[dazed]

my brother was born in 77. i was born in 81. in some things i can't relate to him pop culture-wise. i don't know if that has to do with us really being two different generations or if it's just due to us having different tastes in music...so that's why he doesn't remember stuff that i do and vice versa.

[yankeeyosh]

wordsmith,

Yeah...I think you're right about the whole urban vs. rural thing...I have a friend (HS class of 99) who is from a not-so-affluent part north-central Minnesota...hours from any significant city, and his school didn't have a lot to offer even when he was there. On the other hand, he did have internet access at his school from his freshman year (95-96) onwards.

[yankeeyosh]

I think it might be a regional thing (remember, I'm coming from a region of underfunded rural schools, which are getting completely screwed in regard to federal funding thanks to recent legislation, and therefore can really only afford to hire subpar educators in many cases), and I can only speak for the local norms. But I do a fair amount of education reporting for my job, and competition may be getting fiercer, but I think expectations as a whole have gone down a notch. I don't think that expectations are nearly as stringent as they were ten, even five years ago. I do a bit with student newspapers, and it's most glaringly evident in students' (both college and high school) writing. It's really gone so downhill, and educators seem to turn a blind eye to the fact that more and more students simply have not obtained the skills to write at a sophisticated level. And so the standards go down. Students who come into college with 20 AP credits really should be able to write in a more sophisticated manner than I'm seeing, consistently. Even the honors students have writing fraught with errors, colloquialisms, and frequently have a surprisingly juvenile manner of writing. It's unsurprising, however, since they were weaned on "lol's," "brb's," and "ttyl's." 'Netiquette doesn't exactly breed sophisticated writing, and that's where people my sister's age have probably done the majority of their nonclassroom writing.

As far as AP demands go, one of my friends recently taught an AP history course at the local high school, and to be honest, the curriculum wasn't as challenging as what was offered when I attended, well before the district even offered AP coursework. So I also think that AP standards have decreased, or you WOULDN'T have every other student coming in with a laundry list of them. It would truly be the earmark of a student who went above and beyond, as intended. I stand by MY conviction that educational standards have gone down, at least here. It's been reflected in regional testing scores, as well. Which in turn create budget slashes and perpetuate the vicious cycle.

Well, I think that a lot of it has to do with the whole "grade inflation" phenomenon....parents nowadays have such high expectations for their kids that teachers feel pressure to either give higher grades or to make the work easier. I was under the suspicion that for the most part, it was the former. Fifteen years ago, for instance, a person who took AP courses didn't get a full-point GPA boost as is common today. In other words, a kid who took four AP courses and four regular courses in HS who earned a B in every class used to get a 3.0...nowadays it's a 3.5. But I think the rigor is probably similar...especially for AP courses, since they have to take a standardized test at the end of the course, which determines whether they could get credit. Unless the test has become less intensive, I find it hard to believe that the course work has required less work.