Another Unemployed Engineer

[Cactus_Slayer]

I graduated 12/2001 as an Electrical Engineer. I worked hard and even did my own work, a very novel concept I learned. (Who knew that wouldn’t be such a hot time to enter the work force?) A year earlier, people in my major could expect to be hired right out of school for about 50-60k a year. I spent about 6 months looking for an Engineering job in an area I actually knew something about, it went nowhere. After 6 months of climbing the walls at home, I enrolled in a community college to take some welding and automotive classes. I really enjoyed them, but never really expected to finish the program. In May 2004, I finished the Automotive Technology program. In July, I moved to the San Jose area in search of an entry level engineering job, I would have taken just about anything. When I did get a bite, I would get a call and said they would get back to me. They never did. I took a job at a car dealership fixing cars, it didn’t quite work out and after a couple of months, I decided to cut my losses (It ain’t cheap to live in San Jose), put all my stuff in storage, and moved BACK IN with my parents in lovely Phoenix, AZ. There is very little here for engineers and even less for engineers with my technical interests.

I actually called a couple of companies and inquired about the status of my resume in San Jose. One HR person told me I didn’t have enough experience to be considered for an “Engineer 2" position. Realistically, anyone with a pulse and the ability to take direction could have done it – no college degree was necessary. I asked if I could be an Engineer 1. “No, we don’t have those.” Well how do you get to Engineer 2 if you can’t get the requisite experience? “You go to another company.” Well, there aren’t many companies that do this. “Well, then vote your conscience (inferred vote Kerry) in the upcoming election.” Yeah, like that would have made a difference. I gleaned that this company wasn’t serious about really filling the job. The posting sat on their website for months. I don’t know if this HR experience was typical for San Jose, but the serious lack of hiring was. There was nothing, even temp agencies had few jobs. I recently ran into an Engineer with 23 years of experience who was now working at a Ford dealership in the San Francisco peninsula area. It just sucks out there. He had been out of work nearly 2 years.

So here I am – 28 years old, living with my parents once again, and still no realistic job possibilities. I have more education than I know what to do with and I’m still not qualified to do anything. (It seems I need a Masters and 5 years of x, y, z to be considered for anything above janitor.) My life has been on hold for 4 years. I figured I would buy a new car when I got my first job out of college, which doesn’t seem to be happening. I’m fortunate I know how to fix the one I have. I figured I could deal with high deductible health insurance because it was cheap and I’d have better insurance as soon as I got a job. I’ve had the same crappy health insurance since 2001 and fear having to use it. If I developed any conditions, they could be excluded from new coverage. I really thought I would have been part of a large group health plan by now

There is no light at the end of the tunnel and I’m more convinced than ever that higher education is America’s most overrated product. In short, I’m a very unhappy camper. I appear to be in good company.

[who knows???]

Don't feel too bad, I think many of us have these stories to tell. My sister's friend graduated with a degree in Electrical Engineering and it took her at least a year, maybe longer to find a job in a completely different part of the country. I wonder if you could use your degree to help you become an apprentice for an electrical engineer? Just a thought.

[gia]

Hey Cactus_Slayer,

I don't know how many different options you have considered, but it seems like you need to broaden your horizons a bit. An engineering degree is valued by a wide variety of employers. I have a general engineering degree and work for an asset management company investing in stocks and bonds. I had no finance experience whatsoever. Have you considered teaching, becoming a patent agent, getting a master's degree in a related field or a totally different field all together that may be more in demand? Getting an engineering degree, especially doing your own work :) , is no easy accomplishment. It sucks that the market isn't very rewarding right now.

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by gia
Hey Cactus_Slayer,

I don't know how many different options you have considered, but it seems like you need to broaden your horizons a bit. An engineering degree is valued by a wide variety of employers. I have a general engineering degree and work for an asset management company investing in stocks and bonds. I had no finance experience whatsoever. Have you considered teaching, becoming a patent agent, getting a master's degree in a related field or a totally different field all together that may be more in demand? Getting an engineering degree, especially doing your own work :) , is no easy accomplishment. It sucks that the market isn't very rewarding right now.

I'm unable/unwilling to go back to school for another degree. 8 years (6+2) just about killed me. I dislike dealing with students and don't have the patience. I can't begin to imagine what skills I have that any Asset Management type of company would need.

In college, I learned an awful lot of cheating goes on. A lot of homework copying, a lot of paying people to write papers (And these folks STILL fail their graduation writing exam 5 times, go figure), and a lot of people who just sit around and watch other solve problems. Some of these people have jobs.

In San Jose, I found that broadening horizons didn't work very well. I could administer Windows/Linux systems, but I don't have 5+ years of work experience. There are tons of people who have the requisite experience and will gladly take the job because its better than Walmart. I've even had companies automatically dismiss me from their website. You have to answer some questions with your resume, if you don't score high enough on years of experience -- your resume never even gets read! If you lie, you're toast also.

Employers can get EXACTLY who they want. There are tons of displaced engineers sitting on the sidelines, working at Walmart, or changing oil. (I've met them!) Why hire a "Recent grad" when you can the guy with 20 yrs experience to do it for the same pay? If you don't have a, b, c, and x, y, and z -- you don't have a prayer. I've been told to focus on my strengths, which is a very narrow range. Reach positions are out of reach and for technician level positions -- they seem to think I'll quit immediately if I found anything better. (Not incorrect in their thinking, why hire twice?) I have no idea if Phoenix is different, there sure isn't much here. (Compared to San Jose)

It seems there is not much in the way of entry level engineering available anymore. I was floored when an HR consultant told me I was correct.

I'd love to be able to be more positive, but after 6 years of Enginereing, 2 years of Auto School, and 3 years of chronic job searching -- I'm tired.

[SunDevil]

The problem with Phoenix is that they can hire very qualified people from all over the country because people like the year long nice weather. Why take a chance and train an engineer 1, when an engineer 2 will take a pay cut and will gladly move from Minnesota?

Plus there are a lot of people willing to take lower-paying minimum wage jobs there. There was a Wal-mart that opened in Glendale (or somewhere in the West Valley) that got 5000 resumes for 500 jobs in the first week. There are also a lot of 40 to 60 year olds because they want to raise their family and retire there.

Would you be willing to move anyplace in the country for a job? I looked for jobs in Phoenix for 7 months before I got a job in Ohio. Actually, I am a rare case where the employer found me. I am hoping to be able to find a job in Phoenix the next time I am looking.

Some advice on getting a job would be to join the IEEE in Phoenix to be able to talk to other electrical engineers, find out if they know of any companies hiring. Also if you have any hobbies or projects that you have done on your own, or in school, describe those on your resume. Maybe you could build some simple machine with your welding and electronics knowledge.

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by SunDevil
The problem with Phoenix is that they can hire very qualified people from all over the country because people like the year long nice weather. Why take a chance and train an engineer 1, when an engineer 2 will take a pay cut and will gladly move from Minnesota?

Plus there are a lot of people willing to take lower-paying minimum wage jobs there. There was a Wal-mart that opened in Glendale (or somewhere in the West Valley) that got 5000 resumes for 500 jobs in the first week. There are also a lot of 40 to 60 year olds because they want to raise their family and retire there.

Would you be willing to move anyplace in the country for a job? I looked for jobs in Phoenix for 7 months before I got a job in Ohio. Actually, I am a rare case where the employer found me. I am hoping to be able to find a job in Phoenix the next time I am looking.

Some advice on getting a job would be to join the IEEE in Phoenix to be able to talk to other electrical engineers, find out if they know of any companies hiring. Also if you have any hobbies or projects that you have done on your own, or in school, describe those on your resume. Maybe you could build some simple machine with your welding and electronics knowledge.

In the last 4 years: I've lived in Los Angeles, Sacramento, San Jose, and now Phoenix. The last two in the course of ONE year. There's basically nothing.. Seemed like everyone was afraid to hire. I'll move wherever I have to for a job, but why would someone in Minnesota hire an entry level engineer from the west coast? There aren't a ton of entry level engineers sitting on their door step? I bet there are..

The companies I would most like to work for (and would excel at) are in San Jose, Los Angeles, New York City.. To a lesser extent Atlanta or Massachusetts. In that precise order. I HATE the weather in Phoenix. I see it as a huge negative. I can't stand heat and its done nothing but rain since I've been here. If the weather is a draw for some, I don't see it. I prefer a comfortable 68 degrees year round. (The closest to that being San Jose.) However, weather can't be a primary factor in determining where I live.

I dropped my IEEE memebrship years ago, it got too expensive. (Especially if you can't find a job!) Even when I was a member, I found it really useless for networking.. The periodicals were great, but I had to make cuts.

I live out of 2 suitcases (in a comfortable house), put all my stuff in storage in CA.. I no longer have hobbies or interests. The last 3 years of my life have been spent trying to find an engineering job.. That is my "hobby"..

I'd gladly go to Minnesota if there was a job at a company working on something innovative that I was remotely interested in. But thats not where they are. Ground zero for tech workers is still San Jose, no matter how screwed up it is..

There are no answers.

[SunDevil]

What would your dream job be? And are you only looking at working for large companies?

You might not get the perfect job right away. Most of the companies in San Jose can get workers with experience. While a small company in some small town won't be able to get a lot of people to apply. You can always get a really good job the next time.

I would really suggest taking up an electrical engineering project to prove that you really like what you do. You aren't just becoming an electrical engineer for a paycheck (Even if you are). Plus it will keep your knowledge up to date.

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by SunDevil
What would your dream job be? And are you only looking at working for large companies?

You might not get the perfect job right away. Most of the companies in San Jose can get workers with experience. While a small company in some small town won't be able to get a lot of people to apply. You can always get a really good job the next time.

I would really suggest taking up an electrical engineering project to prove that you really like what you do. You aren't just becoming an electrical engineer for a paycheck (Even if you are). Plus it will keep your knowledge up to date.

My interests are primarily centered around designing and building large TV stations/program origination facilities. There are approximately 3-4 large players nationally. And a few smaller players.. It's also one of the few things I know something about. (Apply for jobs you know something about they told me..) I'm also interested in next gen consumer video products.. (Think TiVo on steroids.)

So, lets say I were to apply for a job at a power plant, the first thing they are gonna notice on my resume is that I know nothing about power plants and my entire resume consists of jobs in the broadcast industry and related technologies.

Ya think they are gonna call me in for an interview?

Degrees mean nothing. If you don't have actual work experience in the area you want to work in, you have zero hope.

[who knows???]

Originally posted by Cactus_Slayer

Degrees mean nothing. If you don't have actual work experience in the area you want to work in, you have zero hope.

Harsh, but true. I never knew how much work experience would mean until I left college. I wish I knew this before I even went to school, it would have saved me much embarrassment.

[ma1939]

Degrees mean nothing. If you don't have actual work experience in the area you want to work in, you have zero hope.
Correct. And this is doubly true for those with Liberal Arts and other non-technical/non-scientific degrees.

[GetMeOuttaDC]

long shot, but... where I am, I don't see many unemployed engineers... there is a really high demand for them in the gov't, and government contractors.. so high, in fact that they'll put up with you coming in at 11AM hungover on a regular basis. but I digress.

also, i work in finance, and since you can train a left-brained monkey to do it, there are a lot of people with engineering backgrouds in my office. there are less now that the market's getting better, though... basically they're easier jobs to get and your quant/analytical/logical skill set doesn't lapse.

my BF works for a large gov't engineering contractor that has office everywhere... PM me if you want to know more. :)

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by who knows???


Harsh, but true. I never knew how much work experience would mean until I left college. I wish I knew this before I even went to school, it would have saved me much embarrassment.

Yup, would have saved me a lot of time and money and I'd probably still be a better place.

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by GetMeOuttaDC
long shot, but... where I am, I don't see many unemployed engineers... there is a really high demand for them in the gov't, and government contractors.. so high, in fact that they'll put up with you coming in at 11AM hungover on a regular basis. but I digress.

also, i work in finance, and since you can train a left-brained monkey to do it, there are a lot of people with engineering backgrouds in my office. there are less now that the market's getting better, though... basically they're easier jobs to get and your quant/analytical/logical skill set doesn't lapse.

my BF works for a large gov't engineering contractor that has office everywhere... PM me if you want to know more. :)

Govt contractors pose their own little problem. Often require security clearances. Who knows how long that would take, post 9/11.. Additionally, military/government entities don't really feed into my strengths or interest areas.

If you ever go to San Jose, you'll find engineers who now work in car repair, pest fumigation, Walmart, Target, and other "survival" type jobs. I didn't believe it until I saw it. San Jose is still a post 9/11 depression -- although things seem to have improved just about everywhere else.

There sure are a lot of nice empty office buildings for rent around San Jose. Now if I could just figure out what I would put in 200,000 sq. ft of office space.. :D

2003-2004 Q3 Non-Farm Payrolls increased 0.1% for the entire Bay Area... Basically zero job growth, if you believe government numbers.

[who knows???]

Originally posted by Cactus_Slayer


Yup, would have saved me a lot of time and money and I'd probably still be a better place.

Bingo!

I don't even have any debt from a couple of years ago, but for this better place you speak of I would indeed be there as well!

[GetMeOuttaDC]

Originally posted by Cactus_Slayer


Govt contractors pose their own little problem. Often require security clearances. Who knows how long that would take, post 9/11.. Additionally, military/government entities don't really feed

true, but... you can still get a job without a clearance - I for example, can not get one, period - if your client is a civilian agency. A lot of people cannot get security clearances and the HR at gov't contractors is getting so pissed off by it (you cannot get a clearance if you have a heart problem, have seen a psychologist in the last 5 years, have mediocre credit, etc) that they do make it easier for us non-perfect people.

trust me, it dosen't interest me much either AT ALL, but after 5 months of being unemployed, I was just like "screw it! at least it's a job."

just a suggestion though.

[paiger81]

Ok, maybe it's me, but every suggestion that is being posted to you, you are shooting down. It seems to me that for you, it is all or nothing. That's great perserverance that you have, but if you are seeing that there is such a problem in your specific field, perhaps you should try to branch out like others have suggested.

[J-girl]

Cactus_slayer: I was about to suggest the government as well. Look for internship programs, they might pay sh!t but it worth it. I dont know how it works in the US.

You should PM getmeouttadc.

And yes I do understand how you dont want to go back to school, its really annoying when u have two pieces of paper, you are 28 and still no work experience, but do not give up hope!

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by paiger81
Ok, maybe it's me, but every suggestion that is being posted to you, you are shooting down. It seems to me that for you, it is all or nothing. That's great perserverance that you have, but if you are seeing that there is such a problem in your specific field, perhaps you should try to branch out like others have suggested.

It's the extreme frustration shining through. Its not that I'm "shooting down" anyones ideas, but I've been completely unsuccessful in areas where I should have been. I'm at a loss as to where to go. I've gone through the logical paths and have hit brick walls.

I'm torn as to what to branch out into. Getting more skills, degrees, certificates does not mean you will get a job. The only thing that really gets you a job is friends inside a company or experience at a company doing what the new company wants to hire you as. The branching out I have most often witnessed is where people were engineers and now work at a fumigation business or oil change facility..

I think what you're seeing is my angst associated with the normal solutions no longer being effective. When I was in college in 2000, everyone was able to get a job. There was demand. Even if you didn't have some specific skills in a given area, if you had some interest in a company, you still had a chance because they were desperate to hire engineers and figured you'd learn whatever you needed.

Enter 2002 -- If you didn't have every skill they wanted and more, you were not going to get the job. There was zero time to grow into anything. Generally entry level engineering is a development phase. I visited Cisco in 1998, I remember being told about how they provide a mentor for new grads and had all sorts of classes available to help bring you up to speed on the technologies they were working on. In 2002 -- the Cisco 1998 mentality no longer existed in the general industry.. No idea if it even still exists at Cisco.

Paige, it's not that I'm dismissive of anyones ideas, I welcome them all, but I'm a realist and the reality is -- its still 2002 for a lot of us and if I aim too high, I get shot down, and if I aim too low -- the employer assumes (mostly correctly) I won't stay. Aim into outer space and they dismiss your resume as spam..

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by J-girl
Cactus_slayer: I was about to suggest the government as well. Look for internship programs, they might pay sh!t but it worth it. I dont know how it works in the US.

You should PM getmeouttadc.

And yes I do understand how you dont want to go back to school, its really annoying when u have two pieces of paper, you are 28 and still no work experience, but do not give up hope!

I may have to look into internship programs. Sad that after 8 years in college and an assortment of jobs over the years in the broadcast industry, I'm looking to be an intern.

I'm fortunately in a low cost situation (living at home once again), such that I could do it. My San Jose monthly burn was about $1700 a month and that was just to pay rent, utilities, food, gas, and insurance.

[paiger81]

That's cool. I graduated in 2002, so I know the pain of it all. My dad's a petrochemical engineer and I know that his company does a lot of contract working. Is is possible for you to try that to gain experience?

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by GetMeOuttaDC


true, but... you can still get a job without a clearance - I for example, can not get one, period - if your client is a civilian agency. A lot of people cannot get security clearances and the HR at gov't contractors is getting so pissed off by it (you cannot get a clearance if you have a heart problem, have seen a psychologist in the last 5 years, have mediocre credit, etc) that they do make it easier for us non-perfect people.

trust me, it dosen't interest me much either AT ALL, but after 5 months of being unemployed, I was just like "screw it! at least it's a job."

just a suggestion though.

Almost sounds like you can be mentally ill, have lots of health problems, but as long as you don't see a doctor to get them controlled.. You can have a security clearance.. :D

My health insurance company thinks along similar lines..

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by paiger81
That's cool. I graduated in 2002, so I know the pain of it all. My dad's a petrochemical engineer and I know that his company does a lot of contract working. Is is possible for you to try that to gain experience?

In CA, the biggest killer is health insurance. If you are not covered by a group health care plan, you are either uninsurable (if you have ANY health problem) or pay an extremely high price for covereage. I paid an extremely high price for coverage. In that the first $1000/yr came directly out of my pocket. Max out of pocket was $4-5k for a year.. And that was the BEST I could do for $140/mo, single male, PPO. (Lot of doctors seem to have stopped taking HMO in parts of CA) Arizona plans appear to be somewhat better.. But, health care is probably the best reason I can think of to take a permanent position with benefits..

If a great contract opportunity came up, I'd take it.. But the healthcare thing is always in the back of my mind.

[lynseymay]

Cactus_slayer,

I'm from San Jose and I know exactly what you are talking about. I lived there before and after the tech boom. I moved to Boston to go to school and got a degree in computer science and gradauted in 2001. NO ONE in San Jose wanted to talk to me and I mean NO ONE. My degree was useless unless I had 10+ years of experience. It was frustating because I wanted to move back to CA, but I couldn't find a job. So I started looking in boston...and looking...and looking and did eventually find a job after six months..unfortunately 3 years later I'm still here, but that's a different story. Honestly, I think you're gonig to have a REALLY hard time finding any engineering jobs in CA they are VERY hard to get, same is probably true for AZ. Don't let location hinder your job search. Look for entry-level positions...anywhere...just a suggestion.

[GetMeOuttaDC]

Originally posted by Cactus_Slayer


Almost sounds like you can be mentally ill, have lots of health problems, but as long as you don't see a doctor to get them controlled.. You can have a security clearance.. :D


you are exactly right. I used to work with a registered sex offender, who refused to get psych help.

Oh, and about your health care thing --- those costs, etc are true everywhere. and I know for a fact, I have some potentially-life threatenign conditions and would just be dead by now, had I not had insurance. So that sounds like a pretty good reason to just take any job to me....

also, it sounds like you are afraid if you just take something, you'll be locked in forever?

[paiger81]

Originally posted by GetMeOuttaDC
also, it sounds like you are afraid if you just take something, you'll be locked in forever?

It sounds the same to me as well.

I understand how valuable health insurance is, but you are complaining that you don't have the proper experience, which contracting can give you. To me, you got to take some hits to get what you want, you know?

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by lynseymay
Cactus_slayer,

I'm from San Jose and I know exactly what you are talking about. I lived there before and after the tech boom. I moved to Boston to go to school and got a degree in computer science and gradauted in 2001. NO ONE in San Jose wanted to talk to me and I mean NO ONE. My degree was useless unless I had 10+ years of experience. It was frustating because I wanted to move back to CA, but I couldn't find a job. So I started looking in boston...and looking...and looking and did eventually find a job after six months..unfortunately 3 years later I'm still here, but that's a different story. Honestly, I think you're gonig to have a REALLY hard time finding any engineering jobs in CA they are VERY hard to get, same is probably true for AZ. Don't let location hinder your job search. Look for entry-level positions...anywhere...just a suggestion.

I think you're right!

On the bright side: I got two e-mails from companies/headhunters today inquiring.. Maybe things are starting to perk up?

[Cactus_Slayer]

Originally posted by GetMeOuttaDC


you are exactly right. I used to work with a registered sex offender, who refused to get psych help.

Oh, and about your health care thing --- those costs, etc are true everywhere. and I know for a fact, I have some potentially-life threatenign conditions and would just be dead by now, had I not had insurance. So that sounds like a pretty good reason to just take any job to me....

also, it sounds like you are afraid if you just take something, you'll be locked in forever?

I'm not afraid to take something just to earn money.. I have done it. I did find most people thought I was completely nuts.. "You have an engineering and automotive technology degree and you're here changing oil?" Hey, its was a job I told 'em.. "You need to get out of here as soon as possible. This place will kill you." I didn't survive too long.

I would rather have a real job that actually had some career path attached to it, I'd love the stability.. I'm not afriad to branch out, try new things, etc.. But one dead end after the next just won't work... Not viable in high cost areas like I use to live in..

[SunDevil]

Originally posted by GetMeOuttaDC

you cannot get a clearance if you have a heart problem, have seen a psychologist in the last 5 years, have mediocre credit, etc

I know that there are a lot of restrictions, but I don't think any of those automatically disqualifies a person.

Now if you have traveled to a hostile or communist country, are married to a non-US citizen(and weren't in the military), have a criminal record, or have done drugs in the past you won't be able to get one.

[kinetic_hours]

Cactus_slayer

did you find a job? Or still looking? (it's been a couple of months, so maybe you're all set now, with health benefits, doing something you like).

I was thinking- you mentioned you wanted to design and set up tv/program origination networks. TiVo hasn't sounded like they're doing so well- and I'm guessing you've tried Comcast. These are really commercial; and other folks have mentioned government contractors, but you complained about the clearance. Really, it's not that bad- you'll be able to do some work (and have health benefits) while waiting for a clearance if you are working for a gov't contractor, and even post 9/11 it's not been impossible. Delayed perhaps, (takes longer than it used to), but provided no major roadblocks on your records (err..forget about it if you have any criminal record) it is still possible to be cleared.

Some gov't contractors (in SJ area too) make systems (satellites, ground stations) for broadcasting (maybe not public broadcasting, or even a channel you find on cable tv, but closed networks for the military). If this is something that would sound of interest, or is relevant to your main interests, maybe you could look more into it.

My point is, don't shut the door on an field just because of a clearance.
As for ground zero for tech workers in San Jose- I don't believe that anymore. I'm here (or there, if you're not in SJ) and I don't foresee it coming back soon. Maybe starting somewhere else, you'll have a chance of being where the next tech ground zero is going to grow.