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cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 03:51 PM
i realize this is probably the reason that more guys were opposed to or ambivalent towards the health forum. . .but i thought i'd bring up how i feel today - crampy, bloated & tired, but happy that i am not pg. (working with pg women whose contraception has failed is not good for the mind).

lucky for me, it was a short day at work today so i could come home, drink tea, apply heating pad & veg.

anyone have any favorite things to do to alleviate first day of af??

pisces2473
03-24-2005, 03:55 PM
I call my BF and let him know that I got it. Yay another month that contraception worked!!!

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 04:03 PM
I call my BF and let him know that I got it. Yay another month that contraception worked!!!

well in that case, let this thread be for deadend then, since i will not be using my job perks this month.

paiger81
03-24-2005, 04:09 PM
This is the first month in nearly 6 years that I didn't have to call Kirk to tell him about my period coming........he's been gone over 2 & 1/2 months......I'd have a LOT of explaining to do if I was pregnant!!

But I go visit him in 2 weeks, so there is always next month :green:

pisces2473
03-24-2005, 04:11 PM
You know, I always assumed that once I started having sex, I wouldn't freak out about my period/getting pregnant. I had too much trust in contraception. I've been on the pill for years and always knew I'd use condoms. I still freak out about it coming...I probably over-worry, but I'm the last person that should be bringing a child into this world right now, lol. I guess I was too naive about BC.

paiger81
03-24-2005, 04:13 PM
Ha! We've talked about it before, I'm three times covered, Pills, Spermicide, Condom. I love it when people tell me "that takes the fun out of it"....Ummm....NO, a screaming baby would take ALL the fun out of it!

shimmer728
03-24-2005, 04:32 PM
I always tell my boyfriend when I get my period, too, not because I'm worried about getting pregnant, but because it makes him squirm and groan.

heatherf
03-24-2005, 04:48 PM
I call my BF and let him know that I got it. Yay another month that contraception worked!!!

What? You use like 20 forms of birth control Jen! If you ever got pregnant, you'd be carrying Baby Jesus...lemme tell ya! :p

Edit: this goes for you too Paige! ;)

heatherf
03-24-2005, 04:49 PM
My first days of AF were always acompained by a horrible headache- so I'd always take about 10 ibuprofen a day. Now that I'm pg- I can only take Tylenol for my daily headaches (yeah, nobody tells you that headaches are a huge symptom of pregnancy).....and tylenol is the same as a placebo for me. :(

midtwenty
03-24-2005, 04:59 PM
I wondered if you were having headaches too, heather. My backaches are worse than my headaches though. Having any of those?

Random pg complaint: I absolutely DETEST flat dress shoes. GRRRRR.

I was on BC for so long that I got used to rarely having cramps or anything. God bless the exact cycle that comes from the Pill.

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 05:01 PM
Ha! We've talked about it before, I'm three times covered, Pills, Spermicide, Condom. I love it when people tell me "that takes the fun out of it"....Ummm....NO, a screaming baby would take ALL the fun out of it!

i used to look at people in monogomous relationships that used multiple bc like they were crazy, but there is nothing like counseling pg women that makes you realize that nothing is safe. i have seen women get pg the first time they had sex, women on pills, condoms, diapraghm, spermicide, tubal ligation, husband had a vasectomy, & of course, no protection. i counseled 3 women the other day all of which got pg using condoms & none of them noticed a leak or tear. i think i have been scared back into relying on hormonal bc.

anyone else out there gonna be pissed if they find out that they can't get pg, not for that actual fact, but because of all the time & worry & drugs you put yourself through?

heatherf
03-24-2005, 05:02 PM
Tons of headaches Mid! :sad: And my other symptom right now is just all the stretching going on in my tummy- like a dull ache.

Yes, flat shoes- nice. Do you sleep well at night? I don't at all. I toss and turn and my hips/legs ache.

kitalyn414
03-24-2005, 05:04 PM
anyone else out there gonna be pissed if they find out that they can't get pg, not for that actual fact, but because of all the time & worry & drugs you put yourself through?
no... i'll be most upset for the actual fact of not being able to concieve.

i was wondering - how many women do you see who get pg on hormonal bc? i use the nuvaring and that's it.

paiger81
03-24-2005, 05:06 PM
My old doctor told me about a woman he treated(yes, I only like male OBGYN's) who was on the pill & got pregnant, child #2 came after using condoms, and child #3 came from the shot.

And I have huge problems with my ovaries & have been told since I was 12 that concieving a kid is going to be difficult for me, so it's hard to be depressed about it, since I've known it most of my life. You'll watch me freak out if I ever DO concieve a child.

MonaLisa
03-24-2005, 05:11 PM
Count me among the women who absolutely will not rely on anything but (at least) doubled up bc methods. I don't feel good abt the pill unless we are also using a condom, and a don't feel good about those alone without the pill.

And I fully expect to someday find that I am infertile or something, and all the worry was for no reason. My life is cruel like that.

biodork
03-24-2005, 05:17 PM
I guess I have a little too much faith in the pills, but that's all I use (not that i'm having sex like a million times a month though...more like once a month). Any sort of pills usually work like they are supposed to though in my body, which is partially why I don't worry about it as much.

kimmer23
03-24-2005, 05:27 PM
i am on seasonale, so i only get my period every 3 mos. its WONDERFUL! people constantly ask me if i am worried that i dont get a period every month or they comment on how they would never take that particular pill, but i think its great. hell if i didnt get my period when the time came that is enough time to still get an obortion (ok sorry for the sick humor). its also nice not to have migraines anymore either and to have 3 months already waiting in my closet for me.

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 05:28 PM
no... i'll be most upset for the actual fact of not being able to concieve.

i was wondering - how many women do you see who get pg on hormonal bc? i use the nuvaring and that's it.

not sure. plus people do fuck up & don't admit it, but there are definitely enough people that i do trust when they were taking the pills regularly & weren't on any meds that affect it.

i have recently counseled a couple people at work that were on the nuvaring & that is a bit harder to mess up. my coworker just got pg on the nuvaring & this is a women who was compliant. but i am still gonna start the nuvaring in a couple days.

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 05:35 PM
hell if i didnt get my period when the time came that is enough time to still get an obortion (ok sorry for the sick humor). .

i appreciate most un-pc humor, especially when it deals with my line of work. when you are dealing with something so serious you gotta have a sense of humor about it to get through the day. i do draw the line when with patients though.

i actually had a patient who said that her friend & her were joking around when she though that she might be pg & her friend told her that if she was that she was gonna throw her up in the stir-ups & get out a hanger. i think the woman noticed by uncomfortable demeanor bc she instantly felt the need to tell me they were just joking.

i couldn't do seasonale. i like to get my period every month. besides the first day, it isn't bad for me. i can understand why women who get migraines, faint, have serious bleeding would want to decrease the amount of time on their period.

k.monster
03-24-2005, 05:35 PM
I just use the pill and I don't worry too much about it although reading this I'm going to start worrying!!

Kitty
03-24-2005, 05:41 PM
my bf and I only use condoms..but for some reason I am not worried at all about it NOT coming. I never ever think about that. Maybe i'm weird.

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 05:51 PM
my bf and I only use condoms..but for some reason I am not worried at all about it NOT coming. I never ever think about that. Maybe i'm weird.

i depend solely on condoms also (have only had 1 oops, where is the condom moment, but rest assured for ECP), but i guess i have been freaked out by all the pg women's stories. i feel like being around so many pg women- patients & coworkers & one of my coworkers who carries a fertility doll around with her are bad omens but at least you can't get pg from osmosis, just toilet seats & kissing.

Radgirl
03-24-2005, 05:53 PM
I would be so happy if I could finally find a remedy to the water gain every month. It's an absolute nightmare. I feel like a beached whale. Any ideas?

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 05:56 PM
a diuretic. drink tea. i wanna check out the herbal period/pms teas. of course, i didn't think of that till i was already not feeling well today & the last thing i was gonna do was go grocery shopping.

Luna456m
03-24-2005, 05:56 PM
Just a thought that pops in my head once a month....usually when i am PMS-ing and in Miami traffic.

Women should be allowed a certain amount of ACME supplies for those days when you want to kill someone with your bare hands....

For example:

2 of those black holes for when you want to make a quick get away or just make someone disapear

2 Strap on rockets...again can be used for a quick get away or even better blow that certain someone straight out of planet earth

1 Marv the Marsian lazer gun

etc....point of ACME is that it's all reversable the moment you stop PMS-ing


I have the worst PMS .... I swear every months it gets worse .

Radgirl
03-24-2005, 05:59 PM
Unfortunately, OTC diuretics, teas, coffee, etc...really haven't been helpful. This is why my frustration is so great. :(

As a side note with the PMS teas/herbal preparation, they aren't always safe to use while on birth control or for extended periods.

midtwenty
03-24-2005, 06:14 PM
Tons of headaches Mid! :sad: And my other symptom right now is just all the stretching going on in my tummy- like a dull ache.

Yes, flat shoes- nice. Do you sleep well at night? I don't at all. I toss and turn and my hips/legs ache.

I had a muscle spasm last night...on the left side, over my ribs but down by my abdomen. Just the muscles stretching out. That's the only weird stomach things I've had so far - no stretch marks yet, though I am showing some. I put collagen/elastin lotion on my belly every day.

I sleep like a ROCK. The only times I wake up is if Steve is snoring (his allergies make him snore sometimes) or if I have to turn over and re-adjust the pillow I sleep with between my knees. If you haven't started doing that yet, I highly recommend it. My hips were KILLING me before I started doing it. Also, if you sit a lot at night watching TV or whatever, try to change positions a lot and get up during commercial breaks. The main reason my back hurts at night is because I go home and flop down in my recliner and don't move around enough.

shimmer728
03-24-2005, 06:40 PM
[QUOTE=paiger81]My old doctor told me about a woman he treated(yes, I only like male OBGYN's) who was on the pill & got pregnant, child #2 came after using condoms, and child #3 came from the shot.
QUOTE]

What the hell? Was her body just resistant to any form of BC?

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 06:46 PM
[QUOTE=paiger81]My old doctor told me about a woman he treated(yes, I only like male OBGYN's) who was on the pill & got pregnant, child #2 came after using condoms, and child #3 came from the shot.
QUOTE]

What the hell? Was her body just resistant to any form of BC?

last week, i met woman who got pg on the pill and her mom got pg with her while on the pill. some women claim that lowdose doesn't work for them. i don't know about any research regardign that though.

shimmer728
03-24-2005, 06:51 PM
Have you dealt with many clients who got pregnant while on the regular OTC?

kimmer23
03-24-2005, 06:53 PM
i couldn't do seasonale. i like to get my period every month. besides the first day, it isn't bad for me. i can understand why women who get migraines, faint, have serious bleeding would want to decrease the amount of time on their period.

the only probs. i had on other pills were the migraines, but i'd still only get like 1 a month. i had just read up a lot on seasonale and decided to talk to my dr about it. 6-8 months out of the yr i do a lot of fishing and boating and period stuff sucks on a boat with a bathroom the size of a car trunk! (if i am lucky to be on a boat with a bathroom).

it would be nice if you could pick the age you wanted to start your period! i mean there are kids out there 13 & 14 having babies.... we shouldnt get our periods till at least 20! that would be nice!

shimmer728
03-24-2005, 06:57 PM
it would be nice if you could pick the age you wanted to start your period! i mean there are kids out there 13 & 14 having babies.... we shouldnt get our periods till at least 20! that would be nice!

Hehe, I was 16 when I got mine......that was pretty old. I wasn't regular until about 22.

kimmer23
03-24-2005, 07:13 PM
are you tiny shimmer? a lot of tiny people i know seem to have gotten their period later. and a few of the girls that were a little bigger and had boobs in the 4th grade were already getting theirs. well i guess its all about genetics too.... i was 13 (same age as my mom and grandmother). its scary to think that if i had sex at 13 and gotten pregnant i would have a 13 yr old by now! YIKES!

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 07:17 PM
yeah, i was 11 when i got mine, but a good 10 years of no sex to prevent any teen pregnancy.

shim- yeah i see it all.

pisces2473
03-24-2005, 07:43 PM
anyone else out there gonna be pissed if they find out that they can't get pg, not for that actual fact, but because of all the time & worry & drugs you put yourself through?
Yeah, it would be my luck that I worried for nothing.

pisces2473
03-24-2005, 07:47 PM
are you tiny shimmer? a lot of tiny people i know seem to have gotten their period later. and a few of the girls that were a little bigger and had boobs in the 4th grade were already getting theirs. well i guess its all about genetics too.... i was 13 (same age as my mom and grandmother). its scary to think that if i had sex at 13 and gotten pregnant i would have a 13 yr old by now! YIKES!
Now that's funny b/c my friend was almost 11 when she got hers and she was TINY. I was a lot bigger and didn't get mine til I was almost 14. My mom started hers at 11, too. I think 11 is too young.

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 08:09 PM
i remember wanting my period for a full year bf i got it. i remember going to jesus camp when i was 10 & 11 & there were a couple girls in my cabin that had pads in their caboodles. i was so jealous. i remember everytime going to bathoom & checking my underwear.

Deadend
03-24-2005, 08:32 PM
well in that case, let this thread be for deadend then, since i will not be using my job perks this month.

Horray! My boys can't swim!

Bugsey34
03-24-2005, 08:41 PM
anyone else out there gonna be pissed if they find out that they can't get pg, not for that actual fact, but because of all the time & worry & drugs you put yourself through?

Totally! This thread is giving me the heebie-jeebies.

I am always SO freaked out about this. I only use condoms. But I don't have sex that often, either, no steady boyfriend that I see all the time. If I did have a bf, I would go on the pill, but I would like to delay that as much as possible.

But it's such a catch-22 because I don't like hormones and being on the pill, but then when I do have sex, I freak out completely waiting for my period after. Two times in my life the period has been late coming, probably just for some other reason, or because I wasn't keeping track of it enough to accurately know when it was supposed to come in the first place. Both times I have gone crazy like never before. I don't tell anyone, I think every single little thing that happens means I'm pregnant. Like if I go to the bathroom more than normal or feel a little sick. Which I'm probably unconciously making happen anyway by being so paranoid about it. It is the only thing I am paranoid like this about.

It's just such a serious consequence. I seriously don't know what I would do if I got pregnant now, especially since if I ever do have sex it's not with someone I'm serious with/live near (the closest thing I have to a bf now is not near me) so it just freaks me out so much!

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 08:50 PM
bugsey - i don't like hormonal bc either, which i why i have been staying away from it. i am also a bit of a hypochondriac. my period is regular, but i still like to freak myself out for the few days before hand. if i am eating more than usual, or feeling really tired. i figure my sanity & keeping myself baby-free is worth the hormones.

shimmer728
03-24-2005, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE=kimmer23]are you tiny shimmer? a lot of tiny people i know seem to have gotten their period later. and a few of the girls that were a little bigger and had boobs in the 4th grade were already getting theirs. QUOTE]

Yeah, and I was way underdeveloped in HS. My doctor said that was why I was such a late bloomer physically.

pisces2473
03-24-2005, 10:16 PM
i remember wanting my period for a full year bf i got it. i remember going to jesus camp when i was 10 & 11 & there were a couple girls in my cabin that had pads in their caboodles. i was so jealous. i remember everytime going to bathoom & checking my underwear.
LOL I wore pads for a year "just in case." Finally my mother was like, when you DO get it, it's not gonna gush out!!!!

k.monster
03-24-2005, 10:17 PM
Now I'm getting paranoid ...... For no reason, of course

cornflakegirl
03-24-2005, 10:21 PM
sorry to spread my paranoia. i will try to keep all stories of failed bc to a minimum.

tartytwenty
03-24-2005, 11:32 PM
Totally! This thread is giving me the heebie-jeebies.

I am always SO freaked out about this. I only use condoms. But I don't have sex that often, either, no steady boyfriend that I see all the time. If I did have a bf, I would go on the pill, but I would like to delay that as much as possible.

But it's such a catch-22 because I don't like hormones and being on the pill, but then when I do have sex, I freak out completely waiting for my period after.


I kicked the hormonal pill about 6 months ago and have been using only condoms. A significant attitude/energy adjustment occurred and I'm MUCH happier...but less happy to realize my natural cycle is 2 months, not one. I was underweight in HS, so I thought that's why I skipped all the time...even the bigger me skips every other month WHICH equals lots of money spent on preggers tests, worry stress, and extended PMS/bloating. Screw this, I'm going to test out the ring, it has the lowest hormonal content (so I've researched) and hopefully the peace of mind will outweigh any minor depression I may get back. Periods rock! Just kidding, I'm in the middle of stressing cause yesterday was the 2 month mark and preggers tested negative, but STILL! UGH

Bugsey34
03-25-2005, 07:45 AM
Yeah, for me it's just too much ridiculousness. Unfortunately I think the hormones are worth it. Or becoming a nun. That too.

kimmer23
03-25-2005, 08:50 AM
LOL I wore pads for a year "just in case." Finally my mother was like, when you DO get it, it's not gonna gush out!!!!

yeah i mean who has their period and its ALL OVER THE PLACE? wouldnt you feel that when it started spreading? i know i sure would!

jen you wasted lke $100 that yr in pads and didnt even have your period! hehe! unless you were buying those big boxes from costco!!!

biodork
03-25-2005, 09:05 AM
Ewww i remember getting my period while i was at school when i was 14 and had to go to the school nurse. She gave me this GINORMOUS pad that literally made me feel like i was wearing a diaper! Ugh that was the worst day ever! Esp having to call EVERYWHERE to get ahold of my mom and end up telling my whole family I had just gotten my period for the first time.

pisces2473
03-25-2005, 09:22 AM
yeah i mean who has their period and its ALL OVER THE PLACE? wouldnt you feel that when it started spreading? i know i sure would!

jen you wasted lke $100 that yr in pads and didnt even have your period! hehe! unless you were buying those big boxes from costco!!!
I had this huge fear that I would get it and it would be like opening a tap. No one explained that it starts slow and you have some time to get some supplies. Finally my mom was like, "if you're so worried, wear pantyliners." So I did, and I only carried ONE pad in my purse/backpack--prior to this I had carried a TON because I thought I would need ALL of them the first day I got it. Hah.

You guys think I worry too much? :bigger:

biodork
03-25-2005, 09:26 AM
I had this huge fear that I would get it and it would be like opening a tap. No one explained that it starts slow and you have some time to get some supplies. Finally my mom was like, "if you're so worried, wear pantyliners." So I did, and I only carried ONE pad in my purse/backpack--prior to this I had carried a TON because I thought I would need ALL of them the first day I got it. Hah.

You guys think I worry too much? :bigger:


LOL this literally made me start laughing at my desk :p Too funny

kimmer23
03-25-2005, 09:36 AM
well i guess i kinda had those fears too. you always hear horror stories about someone wearing a white skirt or white pants and its all over the place. luckily i got mine on memorial day and was off of school.

pisces2473
03-25-2005, 09:37 AM
It was a few days before Thanksgiving and I was in 8th grade--somehow I just knew to take my purse with me to the bathroom and it was a good thing I did. The next few days we had no school, so that was nice :)

paiger81
03-25-2005, 09:37 AM
DO you know that to this day I have NEVER worn white pants/skirt/shorts when I'm on my period. That fear is still there.

kimmer23
03-25-2005, 09:42 AM
yeah i dont either page! i dont even wear white undies! actually i really dont even have much white clothing, but i try to stick to darker colors during that time! isnt that weird?? hehe!

mishl982
03-25-2005, 09:58 AM
Speaking of white, do you ever notice how in every tampon/pad commercial, they wear white?

shinyleaf
03-25-2005, 11:38 AM
I still have the white pants fear too. Like shimmer, I was a really late "bloomer" and the first time I got AF I exclaimed "fucking FINALLY!!"... the pads my mom had bought me 5 years earlier were still in my drawer... they didn't even make that BRAND by the time I got it! :surprised
pisces, that is hilarious that you carried around pads everywhere. too cute. were you a girl scout by any chance? BE PREPARED! ;)

k.monster
03-25-2005, 12:42 PM
When I got my first period my mom was so excited about it she told her best friend who in turn told her son - the guy I had this MAJOR crush on! I thought I was going to DIE!!!!

Did anyone else have a problem grasping the concept of tampons for the first time, or was that just my own dorky self??

kimmer23
03-25-2005, 12:48 PM
yes tampons were VERY hard at first. maybe if i would have had sex first they would have been easier...hehe! but of course i was wearing tampons quite a long time before losing my virginity. hehe! i think the first time i tried to use one, it was half in and half out. isnt that awful??

biodork
03-25-2005, 12:49 PM
I was SO afraid of tampons when my period first started! Because of the risk of TSS, so i would change it like every 3 or 4 hours. Now I'm like whatever (and sorta feel immune to TSS, story behind that but its TMI for a public posting)

k.monster
03-25-2005, 12:51 PM
i think the first time i tried to use one, it was half in and half out. isnt that awful??

LOL - The first time I used one I left the cardboard part on it - wtf was I thinking? (Actually, what I was thinking was, "This hurts like hell")

Bio: I feel immune as well - probably not the safest thing in the world, but it isn't like I leave a tampon in forever

mishl982
03-25-2005, 01:06 PM
i think the first time i tried to use one, it was half in and half out. isnt that awful??
I had that same issue. I didn't get why girls liked it so much over pads because I thought it was the most uncomfortable feeling ever... Then I realized I wasn't putting them in right!

ce607
03-25-2005, 03:02 PM
Is TSS still a concern? I also remember being afraid of tampons because of this - I didn't use them until into college (though I also had no idea how to). And I never see anything about it anymore.

biodork
03-25-2005, 03:07 PM
They still warn you on the package insert not to leave your tampon in too long because it is linked to TSS...however that is not the only way to get TSS, you can still contract it other ways.

maxwell78
03-25-2005, 03:15 PM
Alright, I'll ask...what is TSS?

biodork
03-25-2005, 03:16 PM
Toxic Shock Syndrome

And it isn't just a girl thing, guys can get it too.

kimmer23
03-25-2005, 03:16 PM
i remember it being so difficult at first, now that is all i use.

maxwell78
03-25-2005, 03:17 PM
What is Toxic Shock Syndrome? Please don't make me google it...I'm scared of what I might find! :eek:

biodork
03-25-2005, 03:19 PM
From Webmd: Toxic shock syndrome (TSS) is a rare, often life-threatening illness that develops suddenly after an infection and can rapidly affect several different organ systems, including the lungs, kidneys, and liver. Since toxic shock syndrome progresses quickly, immediate medical treatment is needed

cornflakegirl
03-25-2005, 05:46 PM
i remember those huge pads. uggh, i was so embarassed that everyone could see my pad during gym class so i spent most of my time with my back to a wall (excluding 5 monthos, i went to an all girls school).

it took me days to tell my mom, i was embarassed. my friend gave me some pantyliners & i used toilet paper. i would only get pads when i went to the grocery store with my mom. i would never tell her that i needed them if she was going alone. i spent a lot of time with big wads of in my underwear. i also spent a lot of time avoiding swim team bc of my period. this is probably why i am so vocal about my period today. too many repressed years.

anyone else get those sample kits from teen magazine. they would send you free pads, tampons, deodorant etc. because of that kit, my first tampon experience was with ob (w/o applicators). that didn't work out so well. back in the day, it used to be so difficult to relax, especially in public bathrooms & get those babies up there(even with applicators).

re:tss- anyone else know of that girl that had it. i remember playing field hockey against another school & all of us talking about this girl on the other team who had tss. i was never worried about tss. i slept in tampons all the time & much longer than 8 hours. these days, i don't have to worry about tss anyways bc i use the keeper, which i love. for those who don't know what it is, the keeper is a reusable rubber cup that you insert in your vagina. it sits right below the cervix & stays there with suction. i paid $30 for it about 4 years ago so i have saved a lot of money plus there are no dioxins (in chlorine which is used to bleach tampons. they are are linked to cancer, especially breast). i know a lot of people may squirm, but i love it. i have converted 3 of my friends.

pisces2473
03-26-2005, 12:20 AM
OMG the first time I used tampons, I didn't realize that you had to actually insert most of it and then push it in further. Then I would insert them wrong and go to sit down and be like OW! LOL But they are ALL I use now. And I am ALWAYS worried about TSS. My period is so light now (thank you BC pill!) that I use those Tampax lites...but I have been thinking about using the Diva cup or the Keeper, since those things last a zillion years, are reusable and are really healthy for you--and you can keep them in for about 12 hours.

shimmer728
03-26-2005, 12:34 PM
I have never used tampons. My sisters won't wear anything else.