Computer Love

[and1grad]

Do any of you know anything about laptops and what the best type to get is? I'm trying to buy one in the next couple of days and I barely know anything. Here's a couple of questions that I could use some help with:

Mobile Processor...what does this mean and how is it different?
Hyper-Threading...same question
Brand names (Toshiba, etc)...Do these matter in terms of quality?
System Bus...whats good? Looks like the 500s are the most common speed
L2 Cache...what does this mean? I'm told 1 or 2 MB is good enough
Video memory...Also told that this is just part of your RAM. Is it good to have a higher or lower portion of your RAM dedicated to this?

I'm not worried about the weight or size but I'm trying to stay as close to $1500 as possible. I plan to spend most of the time with it plugged in so I dont need an absurdly long battery life. I realize faster processors drain the battery so I'm thinking I'll have to compromise one for the other.

Any help would be MUCH appreciated.

[Winter Storm]

Damn and1grad! Now you got that song in my head!

[and1grad]

:lol:

Sorry Winter...now excuse me if I want to play...with your digital display. :evil: :lol:

[Morgan81]

Mobile Processor- Just another term from Intel, nothing really different

Hyper-Threading- Another Intel buzzword

Brand names (Toshiba, etc)...Do these matter in terms of quality? - Yes, IBMs are generally regarded as being the best but also more expensive, HP has made considerable gains but I wouldn't really trust them yet. Dell, I have had nothing but good experiances but I do know their laptops are of worse quality than their desktops. Apples are probably the best in terms of quality, but you'd be dealing with Mac software (could be a good or bad thing). Sonys are coming along as well and are well suited for multimedia.

If I had to go with a brand it would still be Dell.

System Bus... Most important factor for overall system speed. The System or Front Side bus is what "connects" all of the componets to each other. How data flows within your computer. I would get 800mhz at minimum.

L2 Cache... Memory that is on the motherboard itself, it basically is there to aide the CPU, for lack of a better term.

Video memory...Also very important. this is the graphic card. It can seriously bind up your machine if you go without a card, which is possible, since the video will just share your system memory but is a serious drain on performance.
Obviously, what you are going to be doing will dictate what you need. More graphics = more memory = more $.

I am assuming that you will be running fairly basic applications, (normal MS Office and internet) so your budget of $1500 is extremly resonable, and you will probably come in well under that.

Just do your homework, it is a significant investment, and whatever you do DO NOT PURCHASE ANY KIND OF COMPUTER FROM A STORE, ORDER IT DIRECT, ONLINE. I used to work in a store and I can assure you, the staff is not trained well enough, the merchandise is pummled and getting technical support is almost impossible from any major chain.

[Deadend]

Here's my nerd power:

"Mobile Processor". I think this is like a BS selling point. If it's in a laptop, it's mobile. What are they implying a non-labeled "mobile processor" will break if you tote it around? No, laptops are made for portability.

"Brand Names". Well, in most cases, pretty much all computers are put together from off the shelf cheap taiwanese parts. But how they put them together in a laptop form does matter.

I just got rid of a nightmare HP. I think HP's selling strategy is to pump up the numbers on their hardware to sell it that way, with nothing else being any good. The heat sink on mine failed, the power connector melted, and the LCD cable broke. POS.

Compaq: owned by HP.

IBM: Had one, no problems, appherently thinkpads are made well

Apple: This is my new computer, G4 iBook. Love it. The actual numbers on apples are always comparatively lower but it's also well known that they get more preformance out of less resources.

System bus is how fast things are moved around outside the processor. So if you have a fast processor and slow bus, it's not going to matter because it will bassically be like a bottleneck moving things around in your computer. So it's important. This is somthing mac's ahve always been good with ;)

Video memory: This is on your video card, it's not ram. Basically, how good a video card do you want? Do you want to do things like play video games? Then this will be important to you.

Power management: It's your hard drive that uses by far the most power anyways, so don't worry about speed of the processor and battery life, it really won't matter much.

Alright, that's the end of everything I know about laptops. I'm pretty much dedicated to laptops myself, and I'm REALLY happy with the iBook.

[and1grad]

Wow...these customer sales reps really put a snow job on me cuz u guys are saying almost the opposite of what they said. Finally things are starting to make sense.

I really hadnt considered the Apples but I will now. What kind of troubles will I have coming by converting from IBM to Mac?

One thing i'm worried about is video games. I dont play them often but I dont want to have trouble playing one. What kind of video card should I be looking for? All I've seen are different versions of ATI Radeons or whatever.

Thanks for the help, guys. I never even had HEARD OF the system bus until yesterday. This is all really useful info. Now I know why you nerds keep getting the girl! ;)

[Morgan81]

Wow...these customer sales reps really put a snow job on me cuz u guys are saying almost the opposite of what they said. Finally things are starting to make sense.

It's nothing against those guys, but anything they tell you is from personal experiance, which for most of them, is minimal at best.


One thing i'm worried about is video games. I dont play them often but I dont want to have trouble playing one. What kind of video card should I be looking for? All I've seen are different versions of ATI Radeons or whatever.

128mb graphic cards aren't that expensive nowadays and they do a great job, just remember that it's a major beeyotch to upgrade a laptop, nothing like a desktop so you might want to buy more than you think you'll need.


Thanks for the help, guys. I never even had HEARD OF the system bus until yesterday. This is all really useful info. Now I know why you nerds keep getting the girl! ;)
Since when do we get the girls??? According to this board since I A) drive a truck and B) am a geek, I should be "rollin' in da hoes", to use the parlance of our times.
What the hell is wrong with me??? Don't answer that.

[MonaLisa]

What the hell is wrong with me???

UR from Jersey. ;)

[and1grad]

Since when do we get the girls??? According to this board since I A) drive a truck and B) am a geek, I should be "rollin' in da hoes", to use the parlance of our times.
What the hell is wrong with me??? Don't answer that.
LOL! I didnt think it would take long to get a response to that. Maybe I shoulda said "nerdy" girls. LOL!

You can probly come up with some good pickup lines for truckers. Like something about "driving all night" or "clutch." I dunno. Also, try not to use "rollin' in da hoes" and "parlance" in the same sentence. :razz:

[and1grad]

UR from Jersey. ;)
LOL! Yesss!!

WB is from Jersey too.

[SunDevil]

Where are these nerdy girls you guys are talking about? I went through 5 years of engineering at college and there was 1 or 2 girls out of a class of 100.

http://products.gateway.com/products/gconfig/prodhmseries.asp?seg=hm&gcseries=gtwym275&clv=Img

This is the computer I have and it works great. The Pentium-M is Intel's attempt to redesign their processor to be more efficient so they don't need to have as fast of a processor (Similar to the Apple (motorola) RISC processor). It is VERY different from the pentium 4. They do not give off as much heat, so you can use it on your lap without it getting burned. And they used a better design process.

Video games work better than I had expected on mine. I don't have a good 3D graphics card, but I can still play Half-Life 2.

Hyper-threading is used in certain high-end applications. It is basically two processors in one. If you don't know what it is, you probably are going to get much use out of it. If you use 100% of your CPU currently, you will still be able to use your computer without as much of a slow down in speed.

L2 cache is build into the processor. It is used by the CPU to store instructions instead of sending it along the system bus to the RAM, which takes longer. RAM memeory is different from video card RAM memory. Video card RAM is used by the graphics processing unit (GPU) to render 3D shapes to display on your screen.

Ok, that was probably a little too technical.

The most important part is the screen size. Once you pick out what screen size you want, it narrows down the list. Then pick hard drive size, and processor speed. The difference between a 1.5 Ghz and a 1.8 Ghz is 20%, however, if you aren't compressing video or rendering 3D scenes and using 100% of you processor for extended periods of time it isn't worth the extra money for most people. You will see a much better improvement in performance by getting a 7200 rpm or 5400 rpm hard drive. When you boot Windows, Linux or OS X, it reads it from the hard drive. So you can have a really fast computer, but if you are reading from a 4200 rpm hard drive it will slow things down quite a bit.

Apple's laptops aren't bad. I still have problems with the one button mouse they come with, but they are getting to be very nice.

Get at least 512 MB of RAM. And get a wireless card and a router. I written way too much about computers here.

[and1grad]

Ok, I think I understand what each spec means and what part they play in the computer's overall process. Now, I think what I need is more along the lines of: What are the specs (value-wise) that are current? Here's whats in my head right now...

Processor: b/w 2 & 3 GHz (M: 1.5GHz and up)
RAM: 512 MB and up; 333 MHz and up (Is this a set speed?)
FSB: 400 MHz, 533 MHz (seems to be common but I'll look for higher)
Hard drive: 60G; 5400/7200 rpm
Video RAM: 32MB - 128MB
L2: 1 - 2MB
Battery life: 2 - 3 hours
Drive: DVD+/-RW

Avoid Centrino, Celeron, & AMD
Look for IBM, Toshiba, & Dell
Upgrade RAM early
Upgrade video card early

I dont think I have the patience to buy online right now. I have a couple of online purchases that are still in-transit when they should've already been in my possession and thats already pissin me off. I'm not sure about Mac right now. I have no doubt that they're good machines but I feel like the shift to that from PC would be a pain.

Am I missing anything?

[Morgan81]

Am I missing anything?
Waranty and service agreements.
Two year max. Anything longer than that and you'll be warantying an out of date box. That and if problems are going to happen, they'd probably happen early.


UR from Jersey.

...Once again, I am not taking this bait.... :mad:

[and1grad]

ok...most of the service agreements are 3 years/$250. Should i not get those? I think those are specifically with certain stores. Can I buy one through the manufacturer itself?

[Morgan81]

I know Dell gives the option for 1, 2, 3, 4 and possibly 5 years. My reason for saying two years is that computer componets are extreamly reliable and these service agreements are an incredible source of revenue for the manufacturers.
For $250, it might be worth it to get a 3 year. It's pretty cheep and if you aren't comfortable fixing the problem yourself, it's good insurance to have.

Oh, by the way, I recently bought a Dell desktop with the minimal service contract and yesterday I just got a letter in the mail offering a discounted price for a two year extension..... It wound up in my garbage can but it's something else to think about.

[SunDevil]

What are you going to be using this computer for?

It is a little harder to upgrade laptops, so I would suggest that you pick good components. But the computer market isn't changing quite as fast anymore. My computer should be good for at least 6 years. Except for video games and video editing, I can't think of any applications that would require me to upgrade.

I have a 1.6GHz pentium-m, and while converting video files might take a little longer, the main thing I do on this computer is e-mail, Internet and MS Money. All of those things could be done on my old pentium 233Mhz. I do use it as a GPS device, notepad, and DVD player/TV also, which need current technology.

You probably don't need to worry too much about the front side bus speeds and clock rates for your RAM. If you wanted to build the ultimate desktop, you would need to know that, but for the most part you probably couldn't tell by using the computer what those values are in your normal day-to-day computing. Hard drive speed is noticable, and in my opinion better than upgrading your RAM or getting .1 GHz more CPU speed.

Be sure to tell us what kind you get.

[and1grad]

Be sure to tell us what kind you get.
Ok, I got lucky. When looking through Best Buy's open box laptops, my salesperson stumbled across a new and cheap Toshiba Satellite A65.
Specs
Processor: 3.06 GHz
RAM: 768 MB (I bought a 512MB)
Video Memory: 64 MB
Hard Drive: 40G
DVD/CDRW

For $750 bucks....PLUS a $200 mail in rebate. A sweet deal.

[Stormshadow]

Brands????? ARGH. I really don't get it. People still don't understand that if you buy a computer from Compaq, or HP, or ESPCIALLY Dell, etc, they simply throw other companies products into a CASING, and then they call it "Dell" or whatever Brand X it may be. do your homework, learn about parts and contact the little guy down the street, or go to www.pricewatch.com where you can get a decent buy on a kickass computer for much less money with probably better parts.

[MonaLisa]

I wish I knew a computer buyer. Somebody I could just give my wants/needs to and have him/her shop and pick out the right computer for me to buy for the lowest possible price (you know, like a salesperson should be able to, but whom I don't trust to not rip me off). Because, honestly, I have no desire or time to do all the research, become an expert on all the things I'd have to in order to protect myself from getting ripped off. I'm not into computers, don't foresee getting into computers, but I still need one that meets my needs.

[Morgan81]

I wish I knew a computer buyer. Somebody I could just give my wants/needs to and have him/her shop and pick out the right computer for me to buy for the lowest possible price (you know, like a salesperson should be able to, but whom I don't trust to not rip me off). Because, honestly, I have no desire or time to do all the research, become an expert on all the things I'd have to in order to protect myself from getting ripped off. I'm not into computers, don't foresee getting into computers, but I still need one that meets my needs.

And each one of us "experts" knows about 500 people who say that...

This could help....http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/

Don't have too much fun.


Brands????? ARGH. I really don't get it. People still don't understand that if you buy a computer from Compaq, or HP, or ESPCIALLY Dell, etc, they simply throw other companies products into a CASING, and then they call it "Dell" or whatever Brand X it may be. do your homework, learn about parts and contact the little guy down the street, or go to www.pricewatch.com where you can get a decent buy on a kickass computer for much less money with probably better parts.

People want the security of having a brand so that it can be reliable. I bought a Dell for one reason, it was just as much as anything I could get on PCUSA.com or newegg.com or anything I could build myself. Plus I got legal software and they gave me a flatpanel monitor. Prices have dropped to the point where it isn't worth saving the $50 to build it yourself, by going to shows, haggeling, fixing broken cables, sodering new connections onto dirt cheep motherboards...or you can buy a Dell.

[pisces2473]

Brands????? ARGH. I really don't get it. People still don't understand that if you buy a computer from Compaq, or HP, or ESPCIALLY Dell, etc, they simply throw other companies products into a CASING, and then they call it "Dell" or whatever Brand X it may be. do your homework, learn about parts and contact the little guy down the street, or go to www.pricewatch.com where you can get a decent buy on a kickass computer for much less money with probably better parts.
Didn't you have to install everything yourself though (like your software)? People don't want to do that. They want to plug and play. They also don't want to reformat their drive, how many times is it now? ;) Like Morgan said, they also want the reliability of a "brand."

[MonaLisa]

And each one of us "experts" knows about 500 people who say that...

This could help....http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/

Don't have too much fun.

Again, I say I have no desire to do the research (but thanks!).

[Morgan81]

Again, I say I have no desire to do the research (but thanks!).

*sigh*
Well, I suppose no one wants to thesedays, that why I have a job. :cool:

That's still a good website, that way when you're on the phone with techsupport, and they say something and have no idea what they're talking about you can just look it up later. ;)

[RockTheGlobe]

Get an Apple.

I have a Powerbook, and it's one of my most treasured possessions.

[Stormshadow]

My drive had to be reformatted because of SPYWARE, which is in no-way related to my hardware....I have no complaints about the computer itself at all. Best computer I've owned, in fact.

All my software came pre-loaded.

Yes, the advantage of getting a "brand" should be SERVICE. However, if you are going to get a Dell, I suggest that you do a search of comments regarding recent customer no-service. It's a big reason their stock has been tumbling. By the way, pisces had her DELL reformatted by my brother (aka self-taught computer guru) for spyware problems as well. How quickly they forget :googly:


Excerpt from www.clarkhoward.com :

Dell customer service suffering - May 3, 2004
You’ve probably heard of the company, Dell, which then college student Michael Dell started in his dorm room at the University of Texas at Austin years ago. He dropped out of school to continue building the company, and it’s now one of the most efficient computer manufacturers in the world. Because of its huge success, however, Dell has gotten a reputation for having lacking customer services. People are calling Dell over and over again, and they’re beating their heads against the wall. Complaints against Dell to the Better Business Bureau have tripled in the past year. And customers have even taken complaints to the state’s attorney general’s office. The company is outsourcing most of its customer service work, so the people answering questions have no connection to the company and don’t care. This company has done a fantastic job providing a great product to the public for a relatively low cost. But when the chips are down, Dell isn’t coming through. To it’s credit, Dell acknowledges the problem, and the company is working to correct the problem. They have started a new program called “Voice of the Customer,” which has several goals. They include, being courteous to customers, fixing problems faster, making it easier to talk to a human and making sure items are shipped on time. We’ll see if it happens."

You really may want to think about Apple.

[and1grad]

Its kinda sad to me that people have no interest in learning about something they plan to buy. I'll never understand this kind of thinking. Computers, cars, and other high-end purchases are investments. How can you afford to be ignorant about what you own? I researched my car for a year before I bought one. Laptop...2 years, off and on. If you dont know what you want, or even what questions to ask, you'll be taken for a sucker practically every time.

[mishl982]

Its kinda sad to me that people have no interest in learning about something they plan to buy. I'll never understand this kind of thinking. Computers, cars, and other high-end purchases are investments. How can you afford to be ignorant about what you own? I researched my car for a year before I bought one. Laptop...2 years, off and on. If you dont know what you want, or even what questions to ask, you'll be taken for a sucker practically every time.
Yep. I wish I did some research before I bought my shitty car 5 years ago. Now I'm poor and with a car that feel like it's gonna break down! Let's just say I'm doing massive research for my next car purchase.

[MonaLisa]

Its kinda sad to me that people have no interest in learning about something they plan to buy. I'll never understand this kind of thinking. Computers, cars, and other high-end purchases are investments. How can you afford to be ignorant about what you own? I researched my car for a year before I bought one. Laptop...2 years, off and on. If you dont know what you want, or even what questions to ask, you'll be taken for a sucker practically every time.

Whoa, chief. Nobody said be ignorant or a sucker. :green: I'm just saying I wish I felt confident that I could go to a store or vendor with my specs and know I'm not getting taken advantage 'cause I'm no expert. I know the basics of what I need/want and what I don't. I don't know all the fine print. So? I can grocery shop without being a nutritionist or chef, why can't I computer shop without being a comp sci major?

Also- Most cars (classic autos excluded) and computers aren't really investments, they do nothing but depreciate or become obsolete. But I did research my car a whole lot longer than I would a computer because it costs a heck of a lot more and is more necessary in my life.

Morgan - I won't BE talking to tech support unless I get a computer! ;)

[cheshrcarol]

[i]Also- Most cars (classic autos excluded) and computers aren't really investments, they do nothing but depreciate or become obsolete. Even though both of these do depreciate, the rate they do so can have a serious impact on your finances. Especially cars - you spend thousands of dollars on a car, and that money isn't like rent, it doesn't just go away never to be seen again. Your car has value and depending on which you chooose (ergo research) the higher the potential value. If you make a good decision and choose a car that holds its value well, you could get more money at trade-in, or you can sell it outright and make more than you've spent....or you could end up paying for lots of stuff that breaks and not getting crap for it when you want to get rid of it.

[and1grad]

Whoa, chief. Nobody said be ignorant or a sucker. :green: I'm just saying I wish I felt confident that I could go to a store or vendor with my specs and know I'm not getting taken advantage 'cause I'm no expert. I know the basics of what I need/want and what I don't. I don't know all the fine print. So? I can grocery shop without being a nutritionist or chef, why can't I computer shop without being a comp sci major?

Also- Most cars (classic autos excluded) and computers aren't really investments, they do nothing but depreciate or become obsolete. But I did research my car a whole lot longer than I would a computer because it costs a heck of a lot more and is more necessary in my life.

First off, this whole thread has been about specs and u said you dont wanna know. Now you do? Which is it? What does fine print have to do with anything? To use your analogy, I'm talking about knowing why you even want to buy food and which ones to buy.
Secondly, your car does depreciate in terms of monetary value. Doesnt matter. That car is an investment for you b/c like you said its necessary in your life.

[analogman]

Some of the above posts are right and some are not quite right, but I won’t mention any names.

I see you want a laptop (really a portable desktop replacement in your case). Do you plan to play computer games on it? If yes, then you need a good video card. A lot of display memory does not make a good video card, you care about the graphics processor (GPU). Putting 100 octane gas on a regular car is a waste but makes a race car go very fast. I am thinking ATI Mobile Radeon 9000 or better here. Here is the problem though, the GPU you want will largely determine the laptop you end up getting. The better GPUs come on more expensive laptops. I think 64/128MB of video memory should be OK. I like IBM ThinkPads a lot but they are pretty pricy. I also have a Dell Inspiron 5100 that I am disappointed with. It’s not a bad machine, just heavier and have shorter battery life than I had hoped for.

Processors: Mobile processors run cooler and use less power but cost more (technology costs money), since you are plugging into the wall, save the money. Hyper-threading allows the computer to run multiple applications at the same time as if you have multiple processors (there are a lot of limitations and caveats though). Bottom line, don’t pay extra for it, but don’t avoid it either (ie if laptop you want only has HT-processors, buy it). Not sure what the prevailing speeds are now, but just about anything being sold should be plenty fast. Note: Step up to the Pentium 4 instead of a Celeron.

FSB/Memory speed/type. At the same speed DDR2 can be slower than DDR (due to different allowed burst lengths). Go with DDR, it’s cheaper anyway. 400MHz should be plenty fast, especially if you are able to buy a system which runs dual channel (effectively 800MHz), I am not sure if laptops have it though. 512MB is a good amount of memory but if you like to play MMORPGs (i.e. WorldofWarcraft) 1GB of memory is highly recommended.

Hard drive: Faster the RPM, the faster the drive (and shorter the battery life). Buy as big as you want/can afford. I personally have trouble using more than 30GB (I don’t store a bunch of music/videos either, though)

L2 cache: This is integrated into the processor now, not something you have a lot of choice over, don’t worry about it.

Battery life: You don’t have a lot of choice in this either. Buy the larger capacity battery (if given a choice) though.

Optical drive: Burning DVD’s is expensive, burning CD’s is quite cheap. Do you really need all that space on a DVD? You can always just get a CD-RW and buy a USB/FireWire DVD burner at a later time.

I hope that helps. If it sounds like I am trying to make the computer cheap by the choice of components I am advising, it is because you will spend a lot of money on software. Microsoft Office is 200-300 dollars, if you want Windows XP Professional, that’s another 70 dollars. Want Anti-Virus? 20 bucks. Want better CD/DVD burning software? 40 bucks. Want a personal firewall? 20 bucks. You get the idea.
Good luck, PM me if you want more help.

[Morgan81]

Optical drive: Burning DVD’s is expensive, burning CD’s is quite cheap. Do you really need all that space on a DVD? You can always just get a CD-RW and buy a USB/FireWire DVD burner at a later time.

Wicked cheep DVD burner if anyone's thinking about buying...

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=27-129-161&DEPA=0

No software or hardware comes with this, so don't buy it if you don't know what you're doing....

[and1grad]

I bought that Toshiba I mentioned earlier. I'm pretty happy with it. I appreciate the help from all of you guys...and gals. :green: